veneer on what substrate

[Jim Tobias]

I have plans to build a table that would be veneered (macassar ebony) entirely. The veneer grain will run from front to back on the top and the edges of the top(continuous grain pattern). The legs will have the grain of the veneer running horizontal.
I have done numerous veneered tops using mdf and I am presently making some drawers using glued up solid strips of poplar. I'm sure mdf is not suitable for any of the structural parts of the table. My question is: What are my best options for a substrate for the legs, aprons, top of the table. The table is fairly simple - design wise. It will be a display(small sofa type) table to fit in a predetermined space. Any advice, suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jim

[Frank Drew]

Jim,

I'd use MDF or similar for the top but I'd feel comfortable veneering a mild working wood such as white pine or poplar for the smaller elements (rails, legs, etc..)

Unless you can find some matching solid ebony :).

Just reread your post: Running the veneer grain horizontally on the legs might create an issue with crossgrain movement popping off the veneer; I guess you could use MDF all around (I've never done that with legs and such), or counterveneer the legs with a plain veneer running with the grain, overlaid by the face veneer going horizontally.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

That is an interesting direction to run the grain on the legs...would love to see that when you are done.

Being a sofa table that is not prone to much use, I think you might be able to get away with MDF all around. As you know, MDF is AWESOME for veneering to (flat, stable, no grain, no movement). If you glue up a few 3/4" thick pieces of MDF for the legs, and veneer them, they could work out just fine.

As Frank alluded to, I would be worried about the cross-grain situation you have if you use solid wood for the legs. If you used a very solid drying glue (plastic resin, urea formaldehyde, etc.), it might be okay but clearly, there will be stress. With very thin veneers, it might also still work as well. The thinner the veneer, the less stress there is likely to be.

[Andrew Joiner]

I'd like to see a drawing of your table to give you my best opinion.

We used to make a lot of plastic laminate covered parson's tables. The legs and rails were 3"x3" laminated particle board. Not museum quality but they were very strong.

MDF is stronger so with right joints and design MDF may be the best choice for the longest service.

[Frank Drew]

Jim,

If you do use particle or fiberboard for the legs, it would probably be good insurance to coat the bottoms of the feet with some kind of finish that would act as at least a partial moisture barrier, to help prevent the legs from wicking in any moisture. Unlikely maybe, but if it happened it would be curtains for the legs since those materials can swell up quite a bit if they take in any water.

[Jim Tobias]

Thanks for the replies. This table idea is interesting, to say the least. It has an "Asian influence" according to my daughter (who is an Interior Designer). It is something that I think I will enjoy the challenge of building, but it would not fit in the decor of my house. She and her husband have bought a new house and there are 2 inset areas that need a smallish table to sit in and display artwork or a vase or something. The inset areas are only about 3 -4 feet wide and only 12-15 inches deep. They are at the ends of a hallway.
This drawing that I have been working on in SketchUp is not finalized, but is a work in progress. I wouldlike to miter the edges as opposed to butt joints. She found a table that had this type of drop front and continuous veneer grain and liked the look. She does not want drawers (thank goodness). My worry with MDF for the legs and apron is strength of the legs (they will be tapered and only 11/2" probabaly at the bottom). The apron worries me in terms of joinery. I will use a Domino for joinery. All feedback appreciated.

Jim

[Andrew Joiner]

I would use MDF for the aprons and top. The legs should be a dry stable hardwood like Birch or Maple.

[Jim Tobias]

OK, mdf for top and probably aprons. Will poplar work for the legs? And, if so, will one solid piece as the substrate on the legs create any issues with expansion and the veneer? I will use Unibond 8000 on all veneer.
Also, any domino experiences with mdf to solid wood? Good or bad joinery?

Jim

[Andrew Joiner]

I think your choices are good. Your table should last as long as many fine antiques do. Have fun with the project.

You daughter is lucky to have you for a dad. Where are you getting the macassar ebony from and what price? I love the look of that stuff.

[Jim Tobias]

Andrew,
Thanks for the comments.
I do enjoy making things for family, even though the hourly rate is extremely low. :D
I have several (8-10) flitches of short macassar (4-8" wide X 18-24" long) that I bought as bundle a couple of years ago. I don't remember the exact price, but it was a deal by the sq ft because it was a mixed bag of shorter flitches. The good thing about this is that the short pieces work great on this type of grain orientation.

Jim

[Pat Germain]

Wouldn't plywood be better than MDF? For such a unique project, I'm thinking the extra cost would be worth it. Apple ply is supposedly the most stable, but it's not available everywhere.

[Jim Tobias]

Pat,
I have a enough baltic birch (1/2 and 3/4) to do it. Do you think the BB ply would be that much better? I really like the perfectly flat surface of mdf for table tops of this type. How would the loose tenon joinery of the Domino work with a bb ply or mdf top with poplar apron and legs?

Jim

[Pat Germain]

I'm no expert, but I think BB ply would be a good substrate; especially if you've already got some lying around. It will create a much stronger table than you would get from MDF. Also, dominoes or biscuits would hold better in ply than in MDF.

I'm not suggesting MDF is a bad material to use. It's certainly cost effective, flat and stable. But for a unique project like you are proposing, I personally would prefer to use ply underneath the veneer.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

Check out my Tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) project. I used dominos and biscuits. MDF is ideal for veneering to IMO. I still wonder about the cross grain issue with the legs but they are so small across the grain that movement is likely to be minimal and veneering over them will probably be fine and you appear to be using a good hard-drying glue so that should help quite a bit. The style of legs you are going for certainly SCREAM solid wood. Any stable wood should work well: maple, birch, poplar, oak.

Some folks have quite the aversion to MDF. I know it is messy and nasty to cut but that can be dealt with using proper dust collection. I know it is considered "cheap" (both in cost and quality) but when it comes to veneering, it is an ideal surface. For table tops, MDF's density provides a very solid feeling and heaviness to the top but one of the most important features of MDF in regards to veneering is that it doesn't move and has no grain.

[Jim Tobias]

Chris,
I checked out your Tansu project and it is very nice. It is obvious that you "went the extra mile" and made it fit your design ideas. I'm sure you had a great sense of satisfaction when you completed it.
I agree wiht you 100% about the positive aspects of using MDF with veneer. I use it almost exclusively with table tops. I was just a little concerned about using it on aprons and legs(especially legs). Someone has already mentioned the possiblilty of moisture being absorbed through the bottom of the leg and I also am concerned about the thickness (or lack of) on the legs.
I am leaning toward MDF for top and aprons and solid poplar for the legs. I can't inagine (I coul dbe wrong) that the poplar will expand enough over a 2-3" width to cause problems with the veneer. If any thoughts are out there to the contrary, please let me know.

Thanks for the input,

Jim

[Chris Padilla]

Properly dried and acclimated poplar will work fine for those legs, Jim: I would do it! :) Thanks for the kudos on my Tansu. I'm now gluing it up the panels (fun, fun) and doing some pre-assembly finishing on it.

If you go with MDF for the legs, simply glue on some hardwood for the bottom of the feet and veneer over it. The key for the MDF, I think, is to (somehow) SEAL it on every surface. It could be hardwood, veneer, shellac, paint, poly, etc.