So much to learn

[Carole Valentine]

Struggled through my first attempt at cutting dovetails tonight. Glad I don't have to make a living doing that...it was uuugly! :( I'll hang this one on my shop wall so, hopefully, years from now I can look back on it an laugh!
I know practice makes perfect, but it seems to me that a decent saw would help a little. What do you guys/gals recommend that won't break the bank?

[Carole Valentine]

Should have looked at the other threads! Doh!:o

[Tom Scott]

Carole,
You're right on both accounts...practice does make perfect (though, still waiting to find out how much practice that actually is) and a good saw helps.
As you've probably found out by reading the many threads on dovetail saws, there are many options and just as many opinions. The trick is to find one you are comfortable with and stick with it.
After you've found your saaw, I would suggest skipping the actual dovetails for a bit and just practice on sawing technique. Take board, mark a bunch of layout lines across it, and practice "splitting the line". Then, saw off the end and do it again. Once you can do this consistently, the dovetails become fairly easy.

Good luck,
Tom

P.S. Everyone has their first set of dovetails...be glad you got yours out of the way.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Congratulations! You may enjoy using a Japanese dozuki. Lee Valley has a couple that might do the trick for you, the Professional Dozuki (that I've used and like a lot) and the Rip Tooth Dozuki (theoretically better, but I haven't tried it), at http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=42898&category=1,42884&ccurrency=2&SID=UCT9DUJ9DC. Now if you could break the bank moderately, the saw I'm now using is from Hiraide, the Kaneharu Ripping Dozuki (http://www.japanesetools.com/tools/handsaws/handsaws2.php). One western saw I used recently is a LN straight handle (http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=SHDS1), which I liked a lot, very fast, sawed true and straight. The kerfs are larger on the western saws, but this isn't a big issue with dovetails.

I started cutting dovetails 20+ years ago with a western style saw, a Tyzack brass backed. I had a good teacher, my first ones were perfect with this saw. So no need to get hung up on the western vs Japanese choice.

Pam

[Alan Turner]

Carole,
Welcome to the hand side of the wood world.

Saws are a pretty personal thing. My basic preference is Western, but some of my students really like the Jap. saws. And, for dovetails in vey thick wood, I prefer the Jap as well. But, most of the DT's that I cut are drawers, or carcase joints for slab carcase construction, and these are small. For smaller DT's, I like a straight handled LN "gents" saw. But, a note here is in order. It worked OK out of the box, but then I had Tom Law file it, and boy what a difference. Although Tom is no longer filing for others, it is said, Steve Cooke, in York, Pa, says he is recommended by Tom, and I believe that to be true based upon a recent discussion with Steve. He is a real gentleman, and he LOVES hand saws. His prices are very reasonable.
The importance of hand filing in Western saw relates to the setting of the teeth. LN, and most or all others, use a machine to set the teeth. The machine distorts the metal at the bottom of the gullet, making it thicker than need be, which causes binding in the kerf. Excess pressure can cause wandering of the blade. My favorite grip has the saw just barely held, and sometime I even relieve some of the down pressure by carring the weight of the saw in my hand to reduce this weight, esp. with a heavier saw.
Hand setting does not cause this distortion problem. Steve files a rip cut from both sides, as does Tom Law, which means that any variation from true perpendicular occurs evenly on alternating teeth, so that it tracks really ture. I just sent a couple of student Disstons (pre WWII) down to Steve for sharpening, and will report on his quality, which I expect to be excellent. I use the Disstons for larger DT's, and for tenons if I am hand sawing them.

Tom's counsel on sawing a bunch of lines is good advice. But, I would practice saw on one side of the line or the other, and not split them. ONe trick that is taught, but does not work for me, is to put your eves directly over the blade of the saw, and look with both eyes over the top, to the intended line. Bob Ingram teaches this method, and has written on it, but my eyes, perhpas becuase fdo an astigmatism, don't let this work well for me, although some of my students find it helpful.
Alan

[James Carmichael]

Struggled through my first attempt at cutting dovetails tonight. Glad I don't have to make a living doing that...it was uuugly! :( I'll hang this one on my shop wall so, hopefully, years from now I can look back on it an laugh!
I know practice makes perfect, but it seems to me that a decent saw would help a little. What do you guys/gals recommend that won't break the bank?


Carole,

Welcome to the steepest, most slippery of slopes! The Great Dovetail saw debate ranks right up there with sharpening methods for variety of opinions.

The Tashiro HW Zeta saws are, IMHO, an excellent value. As the name implies, they are Japanese-tyle.

The humble coping saw is an often-overlooked but extremely versatile tool for hand joinery, it's only pitfall is it takes a careful eye as the narrow blades don't track in deep cuts like a broader-bladed saw, but it can be used for cleaning out after the initial cuts are made with a backsaw of some sort. I've read that experienced joiners can cut dovetails in one continuous cut with a coping or fret saw. Not nearly as sexy as an L-N dovetail or a top-of-the-line Dozuki saw, but they work.

[Steve Wargo]

I thought I was the only person in the world that also felt the LN saws needed to be fine tuned before use. The first one I purchased was the crosscut saw and immediatle thought it had too much set. I gently filed each side with a couple passes and it was near perfect. Most people that discuss them think they are perfect out of the box and honestly thought my saw was just a little off kilter. Thanks for your post.

[Carole Valentine]

Thanks, Alan. The problems I was having were (1) getting the cut started (I think the saw is not paricularly sharp?) and (2) binding of the saw. I am using a brass backed Gents saw ( I think it is a Crown? Has Sheffield England stamped on the blade) What you say about the set makes sense. Do saws need sharpening and tuning when new, like other hand tools? I obviously don't have a clue how to do this myself and it does not make me happy that I might have to send any saw I get away to be tuned before I even use it! :confused: I am also wondering if a Japanese style saw that cuts on the push stroke might not be easier for me...do you find that students do better with one or the other?

[Gary Whitt]

What?????

No pictures?????

[Chris Padilla]

One trick that is taught, but does not work for me, is to put your eves directly over the blade of the saw, and look with both eyes over the top, to the intended line. Bob Ingram teaches this method, and has written on it, but my eyes, perhpas becuase fdo an astigmatism, don't let this work well for me, although some of my students find it helpful.
Alan
Alan, I've found this method useful for cutting metal square with a hacksaw...so interesting to see it is useful for cutting to your lines in wood! I WILL handcut dovetails at some point in my woodworking life.... :D

[Alan Turner]

Carole,

To my knowledge, all Jap. saws cut on the pull stroke, which puts the blade in tension during the cutting action, and therefore holds the blade straight. I believe that it is becuase of this tension that some find the Jap. saw easier to use. I agree that the Zeta saw, from Tashiro's in Seattle, is a great saw, and an excellent value. I have 4 of them. They are made with replaceable blades as the metal is too hard to sharpen (RC 71, I think I read).

I do think that all Western saws, including the Eng. saw you have which is likely a Crown, need hand filing before use. Even with the honing suggested above, which if you try it must be very, very, very gentle, require hand filing before they are any good.

In terms of getting the cut started, the less pressure the better. Try it with much of the weight of the saw being held in your hand, and the blade of the saw resting agaisnt your slightly raised fingernail. Just takes a bit of practice.
Alan

[Bob Smalser]

Thanks, Alan. The problems I was having were (1) getting the cut started (I think the saw is not paricularly sharp?) and (2) binding of the saw. I am using a brass backed Gents saw ....

Your saw probably isn't sharpened to match the user...I'd ease the rake angle and remove most of the set on yours to make it easier to start.

I have no shortage of lovely heirloom saws and a goodly bit of experience tuning them....but for fine work I pull out one of these at $14.99...

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00004TBPU/qid=1092445016/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/102-7255823-9831346?v=glance&s=hi

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004TBPU.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

Razor sharp and a breeze to start....will let you concentrate on cutting square with precision to the edge of your scribed line instead of fussing with the saw. No set so also perfect for flushcutting.

[Larry Feasel]

FWIW I switched from a Bridge City dozuki about a year ago to an Adria, that I understand was sharpened by Tom Law. Right out of the box the saw has been great. It cuts very true, which means you have to start it like you want it to cut. It does not take adjustment during the cut very well because of the set, but if you start it true it cuts true. I understand that most Japanese saws are designed to cut softwood and not hardwood. I had to replace my dozuki blade in less than a year because of broken teeth. I was very careful while using it, none the less I broke several teeth. The nature of the beast, learn and move on.

[Pam Niedermayer]

It's true that there's technique specific to Japanese saw usage that's not obvious; whereas with western saws, which are thicker and therefore harder to break, pushing the bejesus out of them is effective. With Japanese saws, you must allow the saw to do the work, forcing them is deadly.

That said, for the price of a Bridge City saw you could buy some really nice hand made Japanese saws, which are sublime users.

Pam

[Richard Gillespie]

Thanks, Alan. The problems I was having were (1) getting the cut started (I think the saw is not paricularly sharp?) and (2) binding of the saw. I am using a brass backed Gents saw ( I think it is a Crown? Has Sheffield England stamped on the blade) What you say about the set makes sense. Do saws need sharpening and tuning when new, like other hand tools? I obviously don't have a clue how to do this myself and it does not make me happy that I might have to send any saw I get away to be tuned before I even use it! :confused: I am also wondering if a Japanese style saw that cuts on the push stroke might not be easier for me...do you find that students do better with one or the other?
Carole

I use both western and Japanese saws. I've never heard of a Japanese saw that cuts on the push stroke. Their starting on the pull stroke makes them much easier to start. However, the ones I have, the grind on the teeth is not rip specific. Cutting thick hardwood can be time consuming and a chore.

I have recently started sharpening my own saws. The learning curve is straight up. When I feel more confident I may try touching up my new Adria rip dovetail saw that I'm not all that impressed with. Maybe it's me, since I read somewhere that Tom Law sharpened for Adria. Sharpening your saws isn't all that difficult when you have the right files and vise for it.

To me it sounds like your dovetail saw came from Woodcraft. I'm not too impressed with their Crown line of tools. I have a set of skew chisels of theirs and keeping them sharp is a chore.

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Maybe it's me, since I read somewhere that Tom Law sharpened for Adria.

I don't believe Tom Law sharpens saws for Adria anymore. I talked to him about modern saw makers since I was having trouble finding older backsaws. My impression from that conversion was that he sharpened saws for Adria in the beginning but didn't anymore. Tom is really a class act. He took a fair amount of time to talk to me about saws over the phone which is pretty cool since he didn't know me from Adam. Too bad he stopped accepting sharpening jobs :(

Wendell