Epilog verses Trotec

[Mike Christen]

Hello all

I will be purchasing a new laser soon, and I would like to know how Trotec Speedy 300 60 watt compares to Epilog Helix 60 watt. It would be nice if someone has first hand experience with the two.

One big problem is I can't seem to find any comparisons as to graphic quality. Almost all info I have found on Trotec is on vector cutting and stamp making, not much at all on raster engraving. One nice thing is that Trotec has a special that will upgrade the 60 watt to 75 watt, and includes a free honeycomb cutting table (standard on Helix).

Also wanted to look at Universal but have been unable to make contact with local rep.

Price is important, but quality is more important, plus more power is :D

Any insight would be greatly appreciated

[Michael Kowalczyk]

Mike,
Can't comment on Epilog as a user because I do not own one but have known Roy Brewer for many years and even though I have not purchased anything from him (almost did get the epilog pin table from him) he is a stand up guy along with his team. That being said I am VERY HAPPY with my 2003 Trotec Speedy II 60 watter, that is still on the original tube, and I also just checked it with a power meter a few months ago and it still banging out 75+-watts.

I have only had a few problems with it.
Cracked lens and air assist pump failed. Both were replaced next day thank God the Trotec rep was in town and was able to come over the next day and had the parts available.

The red dot went and a new one was sent. very easily replaced by me with guidance over the phone.

anything else was typically me wanting to push it to the edge and learn more about it. I can call them virtually anytime as long as it is with in their hours of operation and get an answer to most of my questions unless they have to ask Austria, then it may be a day or two but those are not usually operating questions but updating and needing a new code.

I have kept my job control current as with the firm ware. I have been told that they will have a new minor release out that takes care of the issue us LazerBuzz software owners have had since the beginning. Having to convert all black to red because black can only, I mean could only engrave but now we will be able to engrave red also, so I was told at the NBM show in Ft Worth by really reliable sources;).

I know they have some new function that can vacuum from under the table as with the grids on the back that can evacuate the fumes but it may need either a "Y" connector split off from your main exhaust line or a smaller separate one because it has a separate port for it. Any of you from Trotec can chime in any time if I have left something out here.

Would I buy another one? absolutely if it fit my needs. My thoughts right now would be for a larger format, 4'x 8' table, and higher power 100-200 watt and up. (but now for while yet)

[Mike Null]

I have used Epilog extensively, though not later models, I owned a Universal for 7 years and I have owned my Trotec Speedy 300 for 3 years. I have had zero parts replacement or service issues with Trotec.

I believe all of these brands are very good machines but I would buy Trotec again.

Most of my work is rastering--name tags, signs, labels, plaques. It's fast.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

What I don't understand is that if Trotec is so good why don't they have a larger sales force. They just don't seem to be selling the number of machines that Epilog and ULS are.

I am on the east cost and the nearest salesman to me is in TX. The only way to get a demo would be for them to find a customer close to me.

They just dont seem to be as hands on as ULS or Epilog. Also the main reason trotec has a lot of information about stamps is that is the main buisness they were in when they decided to start making lasers.

Also I asked for a quote on the Speedy 300 and Speedy 500. Never got one. After I made my Epilog purchase and stated such I got all kinds of emails.

Its reported that Trotec has some realy nice machines but Im sorry If the way they represent them selves during presales is any indication then I see why they cant support a salesman in my area.

[Keith Outten]

Michael,

Its probably the luck of the draw having a particular sales rep in your area. When I bought my Epilog Legend 24 there wasn't a sales rep in Virginia. The same is true about Xenetech even though there is lots of high tech industry here. I heard that NASA Langley had purchased several Epilog machines but to the best of my knowledge we still don't have a local sales office. The closest sales rep is in North Carolina and Xenetech is in Maryland.

Mike, if you really want the skinny on both of these manufacturers you need to start reading in this forum. You won't get the whole picture in one thread no matter how active it is, the real information is spread out over the last three years. More than just information about a current model, you need to know as much as you can about the manufacturer and the experiences that people have had over the long haul. There will always be isolated instances where people have been disappointed, don't let them turn your head. READ everything here, the price of a laser warrents the time spent doing the research.

How many years will the manufacturer continue to support their machines with software, drivers and firmware updates? This is a question that is a real concern to me since my Epilog Legend has already dropped off the radar and it isn't really that old.....the good news is that my Legend has been a good machine and still works as good as the day it shipped.

Xenetech sold us a machine at CNU that shipped with terrible bugs in their print driver, after three years there hasn't been a fix and there probably won't ever been one made available....what does that tell you about their software support. For the record Roy Brewer has confirmed the driver bugs here in this Forum and Xenetech hasn't denied the problems nor have they offered to replace their machine with one that works so we have a $35,000.00 laser engraver that works sometimes :)
.

[Mike Null]

Michael

I wouldn't let lack of a rep in your territory guide your judgment of a brand. Trotec is relatively new to this country and what is important is their tech support which is second to none.

I'm in St. Louis, not exactly the sticks, but when I bought my Universal I had to go to Chicago. By the way, after I bought it I never heard from the rep again. But ULS tech support was always excellent. You'll find that the rep is a fairly unimportant guy once the sale is made. A bad rep can turn me off of a brand but a sales pitch will not turn me on to one. I want to know what I'm buying and I rely on myself to make the determination after making a very thorough product comparison.

[Scott Shepherd]

I am on the east cost and the nearest salesman to me is in TX. The only way to get a demo would be for them to find a customer close to me.



That's not true Michael, there is a rep in Richmond, 75 miles from you, and they will do demo's.

I've looked at Trotec's and they are built like tanks and are lightening fast. They do something the Epilog and Universal will not. They will engrave to the very edge of the engraving field at 100% speed. So you can engrave something the size of your table at 100% speed, edge to edge, which is something neither the Epilog or the ULS will do.

In this case, my personal focus would be on the job control programs. Epilog does not use a job control program and Trotec does. I personally would not buy another laser without job control. Our type of business is one that the job control means a lot to us. Your business, it might not mean as much.

Trotec make very fast, very nice machines.

One thing that people seem to overlook on forums and searching for brands. They associate number of posts about a brand as a strength. That's simply not true. Perhaps the people with Trotec's don't have the problems that most people are posting about with other models. I don't post questions about our ULS often at all. Why? Because I don't have anything to ask, and it's not malfunctioning. Number of posts means absolutely nothing about the brand.

[Larry Bratton]

All I can say is, that after I bought my Epilog, the factory tech support has been fabulous, however, the rep has been totally useless. I made the same mistake of thinking that because I had a rep within 50 miles of me I would be better off with Epilog. As it turns out, I think I have had a good overall experience with mine, thanks to Epilog's fine tech support in Colorado..about 1500 miles or so from here. However,last time I saw the rep, he waltzed out the door with my check.

[Rodne Gold]

I ave seen normal "working" output of both makes and to me , they all look the same...
In reality , lasers of a comparable bed size , price and power will do the same thing..most of the bells and whistles and frilly stuff (like 3d , stamps)are not income generators or they are not good income generators and should be somewhat discounted.
Warantee and user support is all important - how long , what is covered and what is turnaround time for parts....is there real time free phone support or tech reps near you. What will it cost to get a repair man out when units are out of warantee.
end of story!!!!

[Scott Shepherd]

end of story!!!!

Not quite end of story, Rodney, speed and quality are a factor for many. The Trotec will dump out a higher volume of work, period, if it's raster based work.

If production is important in your product offering, then the Trotec is worth a second look.

[Mike Christen]

Hello to everyone and thank you for your input

I have searched the forums somewhat before my post, didn't find a whole lot so this is why I posted. It’s very true I think that if people don't have problems they won't post much.

I have had my Epilog summit for 2 years and have had no real problems. The exceptions of not enough power to do some of the work I want to do. The servo driver technology is also old and it performs poorly on anything that requires a radius or angled cut. Raster engraving is very good. With the machine as old as it is 1996 I think, and still working good says a lot for epilog. Hope their quality standards are still the same.

Also I would like to purchase a laser that uses a synrad laser tube, and Trotec does. Not sure how well epilog is at making their tubes; I have seen many posts about early tube failure on Epilog machines. It may be just the luck of the draw.

I was really looking to find out about the raster engraving quality of Trotec. I have not seen many posts (pics) of peoples work that use Trotec.

Thanks again for all the replies and insight

[Bob Davis]

Unless you've got a very specific use for the machine, such as large numbers of multiples, I doubt that ultimate speed is much of an issue for most users.
I usually use 80% speed as the max and set power appropriately for raster jobs. Because of the ramp it rarely takes more than a few seconds extra for a typical job, and the mechanicals are not subjected to quite as much stress.
Our use is mainly a large number of different raster jobs or continuous cutting. Power is the determinant factor for cutting, and job setup is the main time factor for rastering. It's pretty rare that the user is faster at composing and setting up a job than the laser is at engraving it. I have yet to see significant differences in rater quality from different manufacturers.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Keep in mind that Trotec uses uses both coherent and Sinrad tubes. I cant remember what the salesman told me but I think the cutoff is at 60 or 70 watts. The lower wattage's are coherent tubes. Also it does not matter what was done on older machines it has to do with what the current tube policy is.

[Rodne Gold]

Scott - productivity is also measured in up time - lose a week of work or more due to niggles or problems or poor parts shipping and the debateable faster speed is negated big time.

[Scott Shepherd]

Scott - productivity is also measured in up time - lose a week of work or more due to niggles or problems or poor parts shipping and the debateable faster speed is negated big time.

I totally agree, and on the flip side of that, faster speed WITH less down time is more productive.

I stick by my comments, if you haven't experienced a job control program with your laser, then you are missing out on a lot.

Also, it's like comparing 3MP digital cameras to a 10MP camera. If you show someone a 5" x 7" photo and ask which one was taken with the 10MP camera, you'll not be able to figure it out. If you can't tell in the final result, then you need to start comparing the other features like productivity, maintenance, cost of maintenance, warranty, service.

You'll get 24 hour turn around on support from Epilog, Trotec, and Universal. No one's got the corner on that market. The Trotec does have a sealed system, so debris cannot enter the motion system. You won't be cleaning any encoders on a daily or weekly basis on the Trotec. That's downtime avoided, and as Rodney says, downtime doesn't make you money.

[Mike Null]

Mercedes is just a car until you drive one. Same with Trotec.

[David Fairfield]

Mercedes is just a car until you drive one. Same with Trotec.

BMW and Audi, too. But I drive a Honda CRV :) Honestly, I wouldn't trade it for any luxury sedan.

I think the differences in the machines may be more apparent at the macro level, and how well those small shades of difference mesh with the end user's needs.

There's always going to be things that could be better, but its up to us to make the most out of what we've got. We see that sort of genius on the Creek day in and day out and that's why I check this board as part of my daily routine.

Dave

[Peter Meacham]

My older Trotec 25W (still tests at 30.5W) Speedy 100 uses a Synrad tube.

As has been said, Epilog, GCC, Universal and Trotec are all great machines and can make money for you.

I like my Trotec, it is build like a tank, it is fast and does have the Job Control software, which I like as well.

You are spending alot of money for a machine and will have it for quite some time no doubt. So, I would take my time and get demos on all the machines you are looking at if possible (take sames of what you will be making for the reps to demo).

A long warranty and good customer service are two important factors to look for.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I cant speak for the Trotec software but will say that the Job control software that the ULS machine has is very nice. It was its strongest feature when I was deciding on a laser. However the Epilog Network driver/support along with the presales commitment won me over.

[Rob Bosworth]

Please be careful when you are going to look back and see how many forum topics from members are discussing their problems with machines. I have no idea of what the real numbers are, but I would assume that there are many more Epilogs out there than Trotecs. If you are going to go back and look through different discussions on laser systems on these forums, you should see a much larger sampling of Epilog discussions, good and bad than those on Trotecs.

On the same hand, can you really compare tech support between the two companies based on these discussions on this forum. Again, I do not know the exact numbers, but I think Epilog has a much larger employee pool here in the U.S. as compared to Trotec.

One of the few people I know who own a Trotec is Mike Null, and he speaks very highly of the machine and tech support. He has owned ULS machines, and claims he has a fair amount of experience with Epilogs. He likes his Trotec. He liked his ULS. I don't know that I have ever heard him say much about Epilog.

I believe that both companies make great machines. I believe both companies are committed to customer support. As I tell people all the time, if you cannot determine which one is better, and the color of one machine is not more appealing to you than another, then you can either do eaney meaney miny moe, or one potato two potato. You probably won't go wrong with either decision. (If you use one of those choosing formulas, and get a lemon, don't call me. Call the company that has all of the good tech support. I'll bet if it comes to that, you won't be singing their praises until they get you back up and running. And maybe not even then!)

Now, if you just happened to be looking for a used system, then I would have an opinion!

[Mike Null]

There is one more piece of info I can offer. All Trotecs except the 45 watt model, the one I have, use Synrad tubes. My uses Coherent.

I would have preferred a Synrad as well but what do I know. Mine is three years old, going strong without a single service issue.

One of my customers advised me yesterday that they are on their 4th tube in two years-another popular brand of laser. Yet another, last week told me he would have to shut down for 6 weeks while waiting for his Chinese supplier to get a new tube.

Service support and parts support are critical.

[Keith Outten]

Rob,

One thing everyone should be able to gather from this Forum is data concerning particular models that are either troublesome or that are just plain lemons. When you see complaints about a certain model often, then you read comments from a majority of owners who are having the same problem getting the manufacturer to either fix the machine or replace it you should take heed. Note that when a manufacturer produces a lemon they will do anything to keep the machine in your shop rather than take a lemon back.

Ford had its Edsel, the same scenario can happen to laser manufacturers.

[Mike Christen]

Well it looks like I will be getting a epilog helix. I really was thinking about trotec but the price difference was substantial. Maybe you get what you pay for but I hope this will be an exception. Got a real-real good deal, at least that’s what I think :D. So my new baby will be a helix 75 watt, with rotary and some other bonuses.

Thanks for all the input to my questions

[Paul Franklin]

Mike

I am also trying to decide, but my choices are either, the Speedy 100, Epilog Mini or a Versa

I am getting a demo of the Trotec on Tuesday, (can't wait) I have seen the other two, I like the look of the Versa, but the demo was run out of focus, but I have seen good results also.

But so far the cost of the Trotec is coming in cheaper than the others much to my surprise.

Regards

Paul

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

When you talk about price make sure you compare all the extras you may have to purchase. For instance the cutting table on the Speedy 100 is not standard.

What are the cost of the extra lenses? I would also ask them what it costs to recharge the tube. What is the cost of the extended warranty per year.

[Mike Null]

There is little reason to consider extra lenses as almost all of your engraving and cutting can be done with a standard 2" lens. Consideration should be given to a cutting table or cylindrical engraving attachment or upgrades in software if you're looking at useful options.

[Scott Shepherd]

Yes, consider the cost of the extras, but ignore the fact that the Trotec is considerably faster and engraves from the edge of travel to the other edge of travel at 100% speed, which I haven't seen any other laser do. If you plan on doing 12" tiles, I don't believe you will be able to do 2 at a time on any machine at 100% speed, other than the Trotec. Since the Epilog and ULS both fade out at the edges at 100% speed, you'll have to put them off the edge of the travel so you can engrave them, which means you can't fit but 1 tile at a time on the machine. If you engrave a lot, that $1000 extra for whatever the option is will quickly be lost on the slower machine by lack of production.

It's all relative to what you plan to use it for. If you are engraving, the Trotec will run circles around the Epilog and the ULS. If you are vector cutting, I'm not sure you'll see much difference in the speed.

[Mike Christen]

Mike

I am also trying to decide, but my choices are either, the Speedy 100, Epilog Mini or a Versa

I am getting a demo of the Trotec on Tuesday, (can't wait) I have seen the other two, I like the look of the Versa, but the demo was run out of focus, but I have seen good results also.

But so far the cost of the Trotec is coming in cheaper than the others much to my surprise.

Regards

Paul

Hi Paul

I'm surprised Trotec is coming in cheaper, that was not the case for me. Trotec was 20% more. I was really leaning towards Trotec, but Epilog came back with a deal that changed my mind.

One thing I can say is don't be afraid to ask for a better deal.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

One other thing. You are considering the low end Speedy 100. It is half the speed of the Speedy 300.

I hear a lot of talk about the trotec lasers running circles around the Epilog and ULS lasers. However no one mentions the models. They are not the same in speed, Acceleration and features.

[Paul Franklin]

THe cutting table is included as a special, the rotary is standard $250.00 cheaper than ULS extended warranty is the same as all the rest. The Trotec comes with the air assist plumbing but the ULS was alot more money.

Regards
Paul

[Mike Null]

I will agree that the Speedy 100 is not nearly as fast as the Speedy 300 but it is by no means a low end machine. They do make another machine which is lower in price that I believe is called a RayJet.

But the Speedy 100 would be the one to compare to the Epilog and ULS models you're considering.

Having had experience with tech support at all three I would say they are comparable but I have a Trotec now and am very pleased with the organization.

[Dean Carpenter]

I can verify that all Trotec lasers incorporate Synrad (USA) laser tubes, all bar one: the 45w, which incorporates a Coherent GEM tube.

regards to all
Dean

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Scott I think you are making some really broad statements here. I have been doing some 12x24 engravings at 600DPI at 100% speed and see no fading on the edges whats so ever.

I have done these on Painted Hardboard, 4x4 Tiles, and multi colored card stock.

The mini24 has what looks like a 1" overlap on each side so it has plenty of time and room to ramp in both directions. If you turn on the red dot you can see the amount of actual overlap.

Also even at 100% speed I can confirm that the only banding that I have ever gotton was due to Corel size/DPI conversion. Since I have moved to rastering photos directly from photoshop I have not had a single issue.

[Scott Shepherd]

Search the forum, there are many threads where owners are told that they need to move the work off the edge for that reason. There are 2 conversations going in this thread. The original conversation was about the Helix and the Speedy 300. There's a second conversation happening with the Versa, Speedy100, and the Mini.

I'm well aware the machine goes past the edges. I've seen many a post about having to move the item off the edge, on the Helix, I've had to move the item off the edge and that was tech support at Epilog telling me that. So that's no assumption on my part, that's real life and owning the machine, and having the factory tell me that. Maybe they have resolved the issue. It doesn't sound like it from people that have posted the issue on this forum, but if you say so, then great.

It certainly wasn't the case on the Helix. I've seen the Speedy 300 run, I've owned a Helix and a PLS4.60. Of all 3 of those machines, the Trotec was the fastest machine and it's the only one that would engrave to the edge of travel.

[Mike Null]

I have not experienced any problem with "up to the edge" engraving with my Trotec but I rarely set anything up closer than 1/4".

Trotec has another feature, which I have never felt the need to use, called high quality engraving. With this feature the laser head travels the entire length of the x axis and overlaps the ruler on the left and the table on the right. This is a much slower process due to the length of the x axis travel.