Newbie

[Nathan Talbert]

Hey everyone,
I have finally found a place to get some knowledge about handtools and handtool woodworking! I was begining to think I was the only guy in the world fascinated with this craft. After some research, I've gathered I should start learning how to fine tune and sharpen tools. I was thinking chisels would be easiest to start with. Should I buy new ones, used, cheap, or what? Since I kinda want to be a no electricity kinda guy I was thinking wet stones are my best route against a grinding wheel. Am I right? Sorry to be so naive, I am really excited about this awsome site. Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Thanks.:D

[David Gendron]

Welcome Nathan, I opperat a one man hand tools only shop, and I don't own a grinder... I know that others will say that you abbsolutly need one but... As for tools, you can go the used route and learne to fixe them up and hoppe for the best! I have a mixe of both new and used, what I think is best to do is to buy a small new set of chisels, good quality like Blue spruce or Lie-Nielsen, one or two new plane, again top notch, like Veritas(Lee Valley) or LN( low angle block plane and a #5 jack plane), this would give you models to refer to as for sharpness and flatness of the edge and sole, chisel back.
That's my $0.02
Have fun!
David

[Joe Hardesty]

...what I think is best to do is to buy a small new set of chisels, good quality like Blue spruce or Lie-Nielsen, one or two new plane, again top notch...

I agree completely. I know a lot of folks recommend buying used or cheap tools and learn to tune/sharpen, but that didn't work for me because I didn't know how a good sharp plane/chisel felt.

My appreciation for hand tools really blossomed after I bought my first high quality new tools. That gave me the reference point and confidence to move forward, even to the point of making my own wood planes.

There is no one right answer but hope that helps.

[Luke Townsley]

I don't have a grinder and use Norton wet stones successfully. The Shaptons are said to be better. The Kings might be a better deal.

I have noticed that a lot of people recommend a coarse diamond stone for rough work.

A major problem of the water stones is that they go out of flat very quickly. In the case of my Nortons, the flattening stone also goes out of flat very quickly, so a coarse diamond stone (that I don't have) would be really handy to flatten them and to rough in my tools.

[Nathan Talbert]

So if i buy new chisels or planes from say LN...they come as sharp as they need to be? don't i need to flatten the plane's soles and remove the machining marks? Should i get socket chisels or mortise chisels? Low angle block plane or standard? I always thought the No. 4 bench planes were the most versatile and should be acquired first. I have great access to American Cherry and Poplar, are these good for starter woods?

[Casey Gooding]

If you buy high quality planes like Lie-Nielsen or Veritas, all you will need to do is hone the iron (which includes polishing the back, of course). Don't try to flatten the soles, you will only screw it up. When you pay for a plane like that, if it isn't perfect, send it back and they'll replace it.
A set of bevel edge chisels should be your first set. The Lie-Nielsen chisels are great and generally require the least amount of set-up. Mortise chisels are specialty chisels and expensive.
As far as planes, I would start with a low angle block plane and a #5 (I think this is the most versatile as it can joint and smooth in a pinch). Then add a smoothing plane like a #4. Jointer next, then a shoulder plane.

[Joe Hardesty]

So if i buy new chisels or planes from say LN...they come as sharp as they need to be?

They will be sharp but not as sharp as you will eventually want. They are sharp enough for you to use and get a feel for the minimum sharpness you would ever want to accept, and sharp enough to judge the quality and feel of the tool. They will be much sharper than most off-the-shelf hand tools.

BTW, where do you live. If you are anywhere in the Northeast, it might be well worth your time to take a trip to LN in Maine. They have a great showroom where you can use the tools, talk to the folks, and get a real solid education in hand tools. And if you buy in their store, all tools are 10% off.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Hello Nathan. Stop here and think what you need your tools for. If you start buying tools without clear idea as to what you are going to do, you might be stuck with tools that aren't suitable for your project. Though I think if you get a block plane, No.4 size plane and a few chisels, it should be a good set to start. I doubt you'll be doing a big project as the first one.

Get a honing guide and use it until you get the idea how you are going to sharpen your bladed tools. Hollow grinding is very popular, but it could easily ruin your tool if done carelessly. Do a search on "scary sharp" as well.

Either way, you couldn't really go wrong getting a block plane. Block plane is something you'll most likely use for project big or small. Also Veritas brand of tools are of very good quality, comparable to LN and they are cheaper. But not because they use lesser quality material or less quality control.

Get tools that will be suitable for your project. If you need something else for next project, get them then. No matter what, even the highest quality planes and chisels are as good as their edge. Dull or poorly sharpened edge only result in poor result. They aren't magic tools after all.

[Jim Koepke]

Nathan,

Welcome to the Creek. Glad you found us. It was my luck to slip in to the waters of Sawmill Creek via a Google search one day. There is a lot of good information here. Check the old posts when you have time. You will find a lot of knowledge.

For a starter on planes, my advise would be a low angle block plane.

Before advising on anything else, it would be necessary to know what you plan on making. A block plane will find use on almost every project. Same with various saws.

Your needs for bench planes would be different for making jewelry boxes than they would be for making tables or as they would be for chairs or as they would be for making cabinets.

There is also a matter of personal preferences that can be influenced by the user's physical size. I like my #3, 4 & 4-1/2 planes. It is easy to see how a person who wants to limit their tools would be able to do just as well with any one of them. Though if one was smoothing large areas, the #4-1/2 might be more efficient than the #4 or #3. If one is doing small work, the #4-1/2 might be cumbersome.

Almost any used saw you buy will likely need sharpening. This may be where a new tool would be advised. Saw sharpening is not that hard. Learning on old cheap saws is a good way to start.

Buying a known quantity like an LN or LV tool can give a feel for what should be expected of one's tools. It sure can hurt the wallet though.

With that said, I am one who is an advocate of buying old used tools cheap and fixing them up. It is not for everyone. It can be very satisfying.

Some will advocate lapping the sole of an old plane no matter what. My philosophy is only do what is needed. Many of my planes have needed no more than a cleaning and some blade sharpening. A few have required a little work on the frog to seat properly. Some have needed the extremes almost to the point of waving a few chicken bones around before they would perform.

In my accumulation of planes, there are only a couple that would not return as much or more than I paid for them if I had to sell.

Knowing what a plane can do is very important. So, a plane should be able to take a shaving thin enough to use like a piece of tracing paper. Mostly this just takes a sharp blade and the patience to lower the blade down slowly as you move the plane along a board. After that it is just a matter of getting the lateral adjustment and the feel of the tool.

It helps to learn some about tools and what is good and what is not so good.

Check the Neanderthal Wisdom/FAQs thread. There are a lot of links in the posts there to help understand what is what.

You will learn that if a tool has a lot of rust and pitting, it takes a lot of time to clean that up. It might be better to pass on these and save your money for something better. If you do acquire tools with a bit of pitting, a powered sharpening system is a handy thing to have. I prefer a flat disk system for versatility. Recently have acquired a large grind stone for a foot powered system. Hopefully, time will be found soon to work on that. There are advantages to every sharpening system, just like there are disadvantages to every sharpening system.

If you are like me and have limited funds, you can get a lot of tools with out a lot of expense. If you do have a healthy income, and little time to fettle tools, then it may be wiser to go for tools that can do the job when they arrive in your shop. This is where you will want to take care to only buy what you need, unless you have the ability to splurge. The slope can get real slippery real fast and the urge to have that shiny new tool can do a lot of damage to the bank account.

One last word of advice, if you are married, make nice things for your wife and in-laws. It makes it easier to talk your wife into letting you get that next tool.

jim

[Nathan Talbert]

I live near Chesapeake, Virginia. I would like to start making furniture eventually. I'll probably start with small boxes and then hopefully graduate to chests and cupboards. So from what i've gathered, how does this sound for a starter set: Wet stones, LN low angle block plane, LN set of 5 bevel edge socket chisels. I already have a combination square, No. 4 Stanley plane (made in Mexico), LN dovetail saw, and a Japanese cross cut saw. What should i add to the list?

[Jim Koepke]

I live near Chesapeake, Virginia. I would like to start making furniture eventually. I'll probably start with small boxes and then hopefully graduate to chests and cupboards. So from what i've gathered, how does this sound for a starter set: Wet stones, LN low angle block plane, LN set of 5 bevel edge socket chisels. I already have a combination square, No. 4 Stanley plane (made in Mexico), LN dovetail saw, and a Japanese cross cut saw. What should i add to the list?

If you put the bottom of your boxes in a groove or rabbet, then you may want a plow/rabbet plane for this function. Everyone has their favorites in this area. You may also find a small router plane useful. Both will come in handy when you want to put drawers in a chest or shelves in a cupboard. As you move up to bigger pieces, you may want to also get a #5 plane and a joiner, #7 or #8, plane for longer pieces.

jim

[Danny Thompson]

Old v. New
If you are a "raised by wolves neander," i.e., there is no one around to show you the ropes, and you are wanting to work the wood rather than the tool, I STRONGLY recommend starting with either:

1) new tools from known high quality toolmakers (e.g., the Lie-Nielsen Bevel Edge Chisels). Once you learn what a quality tool looks, feels, sharpens, and cuts like, you can get adventurous with the pieces that need restoring.

2) used tools from known reputable rehabber (e.g., most of the posters on this site who are reselling)

Otherwise, if you've got plenty of time to work up to a usable tool and either a) budget is a limiting factor or b) learning to rehab an old tool brings you as much pleasure as working wood, then dive right in to the older tool now and enjoy the ride.

For a knock-down, drag-out debate on the issue, see the following:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=70466


Sharpening
You will probably end up with some sort of water stones, eventually, but there is a lot to learn and keep track of with water stones. If you don't have a mentor by your side to teach you how to freehand, I highly recommend starting with Scary Sharp (the sandpaper technique with training wheels). It gets the job done the quickest--easy to learn how to do well and and shows you what sharp really is.

Get the following:

- a 12" granite tile from the big box hardware store
- a 3M Microabrasive Sheet starter kit from www.toolsforworkingwood.com (http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com)
- an Eclipse-style honing guide (I think TFWW, Lie-Nielsen, Rockler, and Woodcraft all carry them) or, better yet, the Veritas MK.II Honing Guide from Lee Valley (a bit more expensive).

If you go with Lie-Nielsen chisels or Lie-Nielsen or Veritas planes, you can jump straight to the medium and finest grit micro-abrasive sheets to put a near mirror finish on bottom 1/2" of back and then put a 2-5º secondary microbevel on the front, and you are sharp.

What to buy
Your list above is good. The one tool I would suggest adding is a low angle Jack plane (the Veritas is sweet, but I'm sure the LN is a great tool, too). It would be good for roughing and squaring stock with a shooting board.

The beauty of the low angle tools is that you can achieve the same cutting angle as a standard angle tool by varying the secondary microbevel.

[lowell holmes]

I would follow up by viewing the Norton DVD about sharpening. They show how to push the tool sideways instead of away. Mike Dunlap shows this in his scary sharp method. The body mechanics are better and you can minimize rounding the edge.

If you stroke side ways, you lock your arms in place and then rock sideways on your feet, legs, and body. After learning this method, I am able to sharpen my tools free-hand including micro bevels.

I hope this makes sense.

[Joe Hardesty]

I would follow up by viewing the Norton DVD about sharpening...

If this is the DVD you're referring to, I agree. Perhaps the best $11 I ever spent.

http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=NO-SVIDEO-WAT&Category_Code=

[Danny Thompson]

Lowell,

You can feehand microbevels without hollow-grinding and without a guide?

[David Keller NC]

"Wet stones, LN low angle block plane, LN set of 5 bevel edge socket chisels. I already have a combination square, No. 4 Stanley plane (made in Mexico), LN dovetail saw, and a Japanese cross cut saw. What should i add to the list?"

Nathan - welcome to the forum. Like any other net forum, you're going to get lots of advice, some of it confilicting. That's OK, in my opinion - it's sometimes better to have too much information than too little.

A question, and some advice. Firstly - do you have any power tools? If the answer is "no", and you don't plan on buying any, then the list of handtools you will require is a bit longer initially to get yourself started, because you will need to be able to square and straighten your boards. Even buying surfaced lumber from a local dealer won't really be adequate, because the wood will continue to move after it's surfaced. One typically wants the shortest amount of time between surfacing wood, cutting parts, and fixing it into a project (which limits its ability to warp).

So, assuming that you don't have significant power tools (an electric drill doesn't count - I'm thinking a planer and a table saw at the minimum), there is a tool that you absolutely must have, and cannot do without.

That's a sturdy, flat workbench. Many starting out with handtools neglect this most critical of all tools, and their work suffers for it. It's nearly impossible to hand-plane a board to flat and square without a proper bench, as it's both a reference flat surface and a workholding appliance.

If you don't have such a bench, the first purchase you should make is Christopher Schwarz' "Workbenches: From Theory and Design to Construction and Use". It will be the best $25 you ever spent.

And, again assuming you've no power tools, this is the list of items you will require to make a workbench (excluding the lumber and vises):

A rip-filed panel saw. The tooth count should be around 5 tpi (i.e., coarse). A gentleman in the classifieds section of this forum has a couple of old Disstons for sale at a reasonable price. It must be sharp - you can muddle your way through touching up the filing on a rip saw as a beginner - the tooth geometry is ver simple. Or you can send it out to someone to have it sharpened. Post a question in the neander forum about this - I'm sure you'll get several alternatives. DO NOT send your new saw to a "commercial" sharpening service in your local area - they will likely butcher a hand saw.

A cross-cut panel saw. You can get by with making cross-cuts with your rip saw, though you cannot make decent rip cuts with a cross-cut (it won't track very well).

A back-saw, filed rip. This tool is for cutting tenons, and can be used for dovetails. I would start with a 12" model from one of the good makers - Adria, Lie Nielsen, Wenzloff, etc... Ideally, you will want 2 backsaws at a minimum - one a small dovetail saw, one a larger tenon saw. You can start with a tenon saw, because it can be used to cut dovetails. You can also get a decently-made Western backsaw as an antique from Lee Richmond at The Best Things and have it sharpened, thus saving a few bucks. Don't buy a cheap one from a big box store - they're entirely unsuitable for the task.

A decent square in 2 sizes - one about 4" long (this is for checking things like the squareness of a tenon or dovetail cut), and one about 12" long. A framing square and a small machinist's combination square can be had for little money and will serve your purpose well.

A marking knife - you will quickly find out that marking things with a pencil won't cut it in neaderthal woodworking. You can buy a superb one from David Jeske (Blue Spruce Toolworks), Dave Anderson (Chester Toolworks), or Czech Edge Tool. If you don't want to shell out the $45 or so it takes to get a really good one, a swiss army poket knife that has had the edge ground so that it's a single bevel will work well - it helps to have 2, one with a single bevel ground on the right side of the blade, and one that has a single bevel on the left side of the blade.

A marking gauge - this is a necessary tool for marking out joints. You can either get a traditionally-constructed one by Crown Tools or Marples (these are the cheapest, least expensive examples that are still serviceable), or you can go with a Tite-Mark. I recommend the later, because you can get attachements for converting the Tite-Mark to a mortising gauge.

A mortising gauge - while it's theoretically possible to mark out mortises from either side of the stock with a marking gauge, it's not the best way, as slight variations in thickness/straightness of the stock will cause you problems. If you chose the Tite-Mark gauge from above, you simply need the mortising gauge blades.

A tape measure - An inexpensive Stanley Fat Max will do just fine.

A jointer plane - you will require a long plane to both true up a cut edge for the benchtop glue-up, and to flatten the top. Typically, people purchase a #7 or a #8. Antique or modern maker, your choice. By the way - I do not recommend bevel-up planes for beginners. While they're less expensive, they are not as easy to set up and use as a bevel down plane. At some later point, you may want a bevel-up, but for now, stick with bevel-down Stanley antiques, or a modern maker such as Lee Valley or Lie-Nielsen.

A jack/fore plane - A properly set-up jack plane will have an open mouth and a highly curved (cambered) iron, and is used to hog off lots of wood before using the jointer. Most people choose a #6, though you can get a #5 instead (the #6 is a longer plane and is a bit more "automatic" when it comes to planing off high spots).

A smoothing plane - not necesary for the bench, but you'll want one for your projects.

Clamps - you will need at least 4 of these with a minimum of a 24" reach to glue up the top of your bench. Most people I know like Besseys (and the knock-off Jet design)

Chisels - you won't go wrong with a set of bench chisels from Lie-Nielsen or Blue Spruce. Generally speaking, what you're paying for here is the quality of the steel. Cheap chisels from the big box stores typically don't hold their edge very well. You can also buy antiques, most of which will have very good steel.

Mortising chisel - while not absolutely requried (you can drill out mortises and pare the sides with your bench chisels), a couple of these in common sizes will make your life MUCH easier. I'd suggest a 1/2" and a 1/4" to start with on your bench-building project. Over time, you may want to add a 3/8"

Mallet - You will quickly ruin your new chisels if you use a metal hammer on them. Buy a wooden/urethane mallet and save your tools.

This list will get you started, though eventually you will require more hand tools, particularly for cutting joinery ( a plow plane, a moving fillister, a router plane, a few dado planes, and some molding planes come to mind).

Good luck and keep asking questions!

[David Keller NC]

"You can feehand microbevels without hollow-grinding and without a guide?"

Danny - Not speaking for Lowell, but yes of course you can - it's pretty easy. One simply places the index finger on one corner of the back of the blade, feels for the bevel, lift slightly, lock your wrist, and drag it back towwards you 3 or 4 times. Then switch to the other corner. That will give you blade's edge a very slight curvature (the act of putting pressure on the left and right sides will tyically give you all you need in the center).

However, I'll note that there's a bit of a problem with this. Over time, the bevel will get rounded as it's stopped/honed, and the micro-bevel angle at the dege will get ever steeper, to the point where a bevel-down plane will stop cutting, and bevel-up plane will get very hard to push, and the shavings will be like those from a scraper instead of a plane.

That can be corrected by completely honign the entire bevel back down to a flat 25 degrees, but it's a lot of work. That's why most of us opt for some means of hollow grinding, because a whole lot less material needs to be removed, and the bevel angle stays at its original angle until all of the "hollow" is removed from the bevel by repeated sharpenings, at which time it's back to the grinder.

A hollow bevel is not appropriate on all tools, notably carving tools, but is very useful on plane blades and bench chisels.

[Brian Kent]

On your list, it is all good except the new Stanley #5. God for a refurbished used or one of the most versatile planes on earth - a low angle Jack from Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen.

[Nathan Talbert]

Thanks for all the advice everyone! I have a benchtop craftsman bandsaw. Seems like building the bench totally by handtools would be good practice for me. I'll research "Scary Sharp", check out that Norton DVD on wet stones, get the Swartz bench book, get a few LN bevel chisels, and a LN block plane for now. The Veritas planes are very cool looking though. How would the new LN panel saws compare to old Distons? Should i try to regulate humidity and temperature levels for the tool's steel sake? Is it better to keep them in a climate controled shop? Is poplar and american cherry ok for beginners? Is a 10 x 15 shed a good size for making small furniture (ex. cupboards, blanket chests, end tables, desks) Also, I've heard that having a big window facing south is great for sunlight. If you could design a shop what would the size and orientation be? Sorry, i know....questions, questions, questions :rolleyes:

[David Keller NC]

"How would the new LN panel saws compare to old Distons? Should i try to regulate humidity and temperature levels for the tool's steel sake? Is it better to keep them in a climate controled shop? Is poplar and american cherry ok for beginners? Is a 10 x 15 shed a good size for making small furniture (ex. cupboards, blanket chests, end tables, desks) Also, I've heard that having a big window facing south is great for sunlight. If you could design a shop what would the size and orientation be? Sorry, i know....questions, questions, questions :rolleyes: "

I can't address all of these, but I'll try a few:

L-N saws - argualbly more expensive than old Disstons, but that depends on the model. A pre 1917 Disston D12 would likely cost you more than the Lie-Nielsens. The advantage to the LNs is that you've got a tool that's ready to go, no sharpening/tuning necessary. The current LN panel saws are the smaller ones, but that should do fine for cabinet work. Be aware, though, that there's often a lengthy waiting list for any new LN tool - call now if you want one.

Regulating your shop's temperature and humidity is always preferable if you can do it, both for your comfort as well as keeping rust off of your tools and your wood stable. That doesn't mean you can't do good work if you can't regulate the shop, you'll just have to take steps to avoid rust (oil and grease), and carefully manage your lumber when you're in the middle of a project - surface and square only what you can use in the next couple of days.

Poplar and cherry are fine for beginners. They're also fine for experts. Some of the most spectacular furniture ever made consisted of these woods.

A 10X15 shed is going to be cramped for a power-tool shop, but will be easier to manage for a hand tool only operation. I'll note that a very well-respected furniture maker, Robert Millard, operates out of a one car garage - that a car has to go into.

Natural light from a window is always prefereble if you can get it, but artificial lighting is very workable. Again, remember that some of the greatest furniture ever made was constructed by candlelight.

What size shop is a tough one. Most of us start with what we have, and graduate to something better when the hobby gets out of control. :D

[Sam Takeuchi]

If you are going to be building a bench, you should get a #7 or 8, or equivalent sized jointer plane. It'll be really tough to flatten a bench top with a smoother. It simply isn't long enough to ride over bumps and humps to flatten them out.

While LN tools are good, but consider other alternatives as well. I don't know how your financial situation is like, but if you are like many of us ordinary income folks, you'll run out of cash real quick buying LN tools.

Humidity controlled environment is good for your tools as well as wood, but I wouldn't be too concerned about it. If woodworkers in the past 4000 years managed without air conditioning and de/humidifier, I think we can manage to build good stuff just as well.

It's kind of hard to give advice on orientation, isn't it? I mean...do you get good sunlight? Just place your bench by the window. Unless your window is facing a wall, it shouldn't matter even if it's not facing the most desirable direction. If you get bright enough of light to do normal stuff, it's enough. Sunlight is good, but sometimes it takes dimmer light to see scratches and blemishes. Even if your shop is slightly dark, a couple of light sources should do a good job (especially those lamps with long flexible arm).

Be careful with power tools though. If your shop is small, they will fill up your work space very fast.

[Joe Hardesty]

Is a 10 x 15 shed a good size for making small furniture

That would be OK if you're only using hand tools. The problem comes if you decide you want a jointer, planar, band saw, table saw, miter saw, etc. and want to work with 8 foot boards. That is impossible because you need at least 8' on each side of the equipment.

I am not advocating the switch from hand tools to power tools, but if you ever decide to work with rough lumber, the ability to work with larger stock and the need for some surfacing tools may be desirable.

If you could do a 12' x 20' shed, you give yourself the option to use longer stock, power tools if needed, and/or the option for additional lumber storage.

[Rick Erickson]

Lowell,

You can feehand microbevels without hollow-grinding and without a guide?

Certainly Danny. I do it all the time. Rock the blade on the stone to find the primary angle (sitting flat on the stone), raise it a degree or two, lock your wrists and elbows and work the stone pivoting at your shoulders and rocking heel-to-toe on your feet. Do this to create a secondary bevel and then go to a finer grit raising another degree to create the tertiary bevel. Flip the blade over and hone the back just at the cutting edge using the ruler trick. Works like a charm and can be done in about 30 seconds.

[Andy Bardowell]

Welcome Nathan!

[Wilbur Pan]

This has been brought up before, but I think it bears repeating.

Find a way to get hands on experience with someone that knows what they are doing. There are classes you can take, and woodworking clubs all over, and every woodworking club has their hand tool geek.

Where do you live? That will help with finding you resources.

[Joe Hardesty]

Where do you live? That will help with finding you resources.

From earlier in the thread.


I live near Chesapeake, Virginia.

[Wilbur Pan]

Dang. Missed that. Sorry.

The Woodcraft in Norfolk, VA offers beginning hand tool classes.

http://www.woodcraft.com/stores/store.aspx?id=556&nav=classes

Google Maps tells me that it's only about 20 minutes away from Chesapeake, VA.

And, there's the Tidewater Woodworkers Guild (http://www.twwwg.com/), which meets in that same Woodcraft.

[Nathan Talbert]

Ok so I went to the local Woodcraft store and asked to see their LN block plains. The guy pulls out the adjustable mouth one. Do i need the adjustable mouth one or not? Also he said that iron is the way to go vs. bronze because bronze leaves marks on wood that shows up in the finish. Apparently "all the guys that work at Lie Nielson use iron." Then i asked him about Veritas and here is his answer, "We don't like Veritas and we don't carry Verritas tools." OK??? Why would a store flat-out "not like" a whole brand of tools which most guys on this forum seem to like. Then he showed me a Wood River #4 and said it should be my next plane because its cheaper and just as good as the LN #4. Then when i asked him about chisels, he said LN was too hard for beginners to sharpen and seemed to push the Japanese chisels pretty heavily. This guy is supposedly the hand tool guro at this store. So my question is, is he really giving me good advice or is he pushing certain products and being biased for sales reasons. I was told on this thread to find someone who could educate me locally, now i feel a little cornfused:o

[David Gendron]

Obviously, is not ... I started hand tools wood working less than a year ago and Didn't take courses(none available where I leave), I had an old set of Marple Bleu chip chisels and went on the buy a few new tools and a few used one! And I would say that the LN stuff is sure nice but there is other on the market that are as good or bether, and that's a lot of personel preferences. you coulg go with Barr chisels, Blue Spruce. As for planes, you don't have as much choices if you want new... It's LN, LV(veritas) or Clifton. the rest is of lesser quality as per some reviews! I like my BU jointer from veritas(LV) but not my #4...I like my LA block plane from Veritas and I also like my #5 LN and on and on and on... you will find that some people will tell you such and such is the best and fo others it will be differnt, you are lucky to leave in the lower 48 so you can get access to some show and tools event like LN and WWIA. So take the time to try for your self! As for you Hand tools"guro", he is a reatal person and if he work on comission, he will try to get in your hand the tool that have the best mark up... Do you know of some one, an other wood worker, who could help you out? It's always possible to resale a tool that doesn't work for you... But if it is a "no name" tool, it will be harder!
Good luck with you search!

[Brian Kent]

Nathan, that guy gave some dumb advice.

Adjustable mouth - good advice

Lee Valley / Veritas - outstanding, but Woodcraft doesn't sell them so this guy doesn't make money

Lie-Nielsen - also outstanding - but iron vs brass is just your choice and preference. It does not leave marks on wood.

Chisels - I haven't tried Lie-Nielsen, but I've never heard any user say, "Dang their nice, but the steel's too hard".

You did all the right things and recognized the problems with one "guru's" advice. I would say you got some very nice education from a local woodworker:D.

Brian

[Nathan Talbert]

Ok. So adjustable mouth low angle block plane it is then. What are the advantages of adjustable mouth? Thicker shavings? What do you think about replacing my Stanley#4 (Made in Mexico) soon?

[Jim Koepke]

I think the person missed one of the first points of good salesmanship, never bad mouth your competition.

Was he willing to let you use the Wood River and an LN side by side? until he lets you try both of them and lets you take the one you are using if you make the purchase, I would be suspect.

I like having an adjustable mouth on my block planes. It is one more control on the cut.

He may have personal preferences about tools, he may be earning more of a commission on some tools. My personal feeling is to be more trusting of advice coming from those who are not going to be gaining financially by following the advice. Understand of course, that what we offer here is just our opinion.

I am sure the LN chisels are a very good chisel. My preference is old Buck Brothers, Witherby and other pre WW II makers.

Though, I am thinking of buying a new mortise chisel from LN or some other modern day maker.

jim

[Michael Trivette]

Hi Nathan,

First let me say I love my local Woodcraft, I shop there often and will continue to do so.
That being said I always take any advice they have with a grain of salt so to speak.
They are trying to sell their wares remember.
Also maybe they believe what they tell you for example that LN chisles would be hard to sharpen for a beginer.
More difficult .... maybe
Too difficult......Never

YOU... may be happy with the Wood River plane ... But ask more people than the guy who sells them.

I think Veritas and LN are great companies who make great tools.
But I'd never take their word for that.
Listen to what the customers say.... not the sales reps.

Woodcraft is a great place to buy stuff but I rarely ask for advice

[Jim Koepke]

Ok. So adjustable mouth low angle block plane it is then. What are the advantages of adjustable mouth? Thicker shavings? What do you think about replacing my Stanley#4 (Made in Mexico) soon?

Closing the mouth helps to avoid tear out. It is also my experience that if the blade is adjusted with the mouth open, closing the mouth has an effect that can make the shaving a little thinner. Likewise, opening the mouth can make the shaving a little thicker. It is almost like a micro adjustment. Also, on a bevel up (BU) blade, the blade has a tendency to dive into the wood, in my opinion, having the mouth closed helps to control this.

On a bench plane, the frog is moved back and forth to set the mouth. Since block planes have a fixed frog, the adjustable mouth is used.

If the Stanley #4 (made in Mexico) is working fine, then you may want to pick a different plane to add to your users. This may be a good one to learn the art of sharpening and plane fettling. Do you have a #5 or a #3?
Both of those are good user sizes. You might like to take a chance and buy an older Stanley. You may want to think about whether you want to keep your planes all from about the same time period or if you do not care about such considerations. You may also try and buy planes made by Sargent, Union, Millers Falls or some of the planes like the Keen Kutter models made by Stanley. This is where one needs to be careful and gain some knowledge about which Keen Kutter models were made by Stanley and which weren't. Some well made planes can be had at good prices just because they are not popular. Stanley planes are the easiest when it comes to finding spare parts.

jim

[Sam Takeuchi]

If your made in Mexico #4 isn't too much out of whack, stick with that if the sole isn't in bad shape, and sides are acceptably square (if you want to shoot with it, if not, you can leave the sides alone). If you aren't concerned with money, get a LN or Veritas #4 if fettling isn't your thing.

While new LN or Veritas planes are nice, if you look up on ebay, there are some sellers who sell tuned up vintage planes. I bought a couple from one of them recently (a second #7 type 9 and another 'as found' block plane), I was extremely happy with the tuned up #7. Dead flat sole and mating surfaces lapped for good fit, really out of the box, just hone the edge quality. And I didn't pay any more than what others pay for moderately decent untuned #7 either. Time, effort, and price considered, it certainly was better value than any other tools I have so far. I think buying from seller like that may be a good alternative for you. There is something really nice about very finely tuned vintage planes that will perform perfectly. Especially if you happen to get one of those planes with nicely grained rosewood handle and knob. They might not have the glitter and glamour of LN planes, but there is nothing embarrassing about these vintage planes.

[David Keller NC]

"Then i asked him about Veritas and here is his answer, "We don't like Veritas and we don't carry Verritas tools." OK??? Why would a store flat-out "not like" a whole brand of tools which most guys on this forum seem to like. Then he showed me a Wood River #4 and said it should be my next plane because its cheaper and just as good as the LN #4. Then when i asked him about chisels, he said LN was too hard for beginners to sharpen and seemed to push the Japanese chisels pretty heavily. This guy is supposedly the hand tool guro at this store."

Wow - that's some seriously bad (and biased) advice. Others have chimed in here, but I'll post some thoughts:

As to Veritas - I rather doubt you would get such a "universal" opinion from a whole lot of Woodcraft employees. Most of them are woodworkers, and I can guarantee that there are more than a few Veritas tools in their shops at home. Woodcraft does sell some Lee Valley products, but I'm guessing that some corporate dude couldn't work out a favorable pricing agreement on the Veritas planes, or he thought that it didn't make sense to carry Lie-Nielsen, new Stanleys, and Veritas planes all at the same time. Sort of like a particular grocery store doesn't carry all brands of pasta products, for example.

As to Woodriver being "as good as" a Lie-Nielsen #4 - that needs a very large qualification. Will a Woodriver plane cut wood? - certainly, as will a Lie-Nielsen, an antique Stanely, and an even more antique wooden smoother. However, from what I've seen myself and others have commented on in various forums including this one, the Woodriver models are lacking in some respects. That makes sense, because they were intended to be budget-priced, but superior to some of the real trash now put out by (modern) Stanley and others.

As to whether you should/should not buy the least expensive tool in a particular type because you're a beginner - I consider this a completely false statement. I've met more than my share of individuals that are convinced that a hand plane is a non-functional door stop. Typically, these individuals had no hand-plane experience, bought a cheap 'n crappy new "contractor grade" Stanley or a beat-up flea market special, and gave up after three frustrating hours with the plane either taking no wood off the surface of a plank, or digging in, gouging the work, and stalling.

This forum will assist you in having a better planing experience than what I wrote above, but it is exactly the inexperience factor that leads me to recommend that newbies buy a high-quality Lie-Nielsen or Veritas plane for their first one. That does two things - lets you concentrate on sharpening the iron and be confident that's all that's required to get the plane to perform, and gives you an example of how a plane should perform, which will greatly assist you in tuning up older Stanleys/Miller's Falls, Sargents, etc...

Finally, and I say this from first hand experience, Japanese chisels, even very high dollar ones, are a lot harder to sharpen to a very keen edge. Once they are sharp, they generally will hold their edge longer than Western chisels, but I do not recommend them for beginners - the steel is really hard, and can really frustrate someone that just bought his first honing stone last week. The Lie-Nielsens are superb chisels, and just as with a plane, it helps to have a chisel that has correct bevel geometry, a flat back, no pitting, and good balance to show you what a chisel should be like. Once you've learned what you're shooting for, you'll know what to do with a rusty early 20th century yard sale find.

I fear that you ran into a guy at Woodcraft that was probably like all of us were at some point in the past - power tool workers that had some vague idea of hand tools, but didn't use them. I suspect he'd learned just enough about the hand tools that his store sold so that he could appear marginally competent to prospective customers.

[Marty Weatherup]

Nathan,

Welcome! You have received a lot of great advice on this thread and there is little I can add except that you might consider getting an LN #5 and a low angle block plane; having some one who truly knows their stuff show you how to sharpen (pick a method, they all work), tune and use the plane. It would be a great investment in your woodworking. Once you have figured out how a good quality, well tuned plane is supposed to run then think about picking up more new planes if the budget allows or keeping an eye out for good used Stanleys that you can sharpen, tune and put to use.

I am just getting comfortable with hand planes and learned the hard way, by myself from forums and books. I wish I had done what I am advising you of (20/20 hindsight you know). I think I would have come along a lot faster in my skill development. I still have a long way to go but it is truly enjoyable to hear that plane slide across the wood and see that thin curl come rolling off.

Marty

[Wilbur Pan]

So now I feel guilty because I encouraged you to find someone local. :( Don't give up, though. I still would seriously consider taking a class, and visiting your local woodworker's club. The key here is to get a first hand idea of what a really good plane shaving looks like, and what a really sharp chisel and saw feel like in use, which is the one thing that the internet can't bring to you.

Having said that, I agree that you got a lot of bad advice from that salesman. A lot of what David said is right on, but I'm going to go a bit off topic here with this:


Finally, and I say this from first hand experience, Japanese chisels, even very high dollar ones, are a lot harder to sharpen to a very keen edge. Once they are sharp, they generally will hold their edge longer than Western chisels, but I do not recommend them for beginners - the steel is really hard, and can really frustrate someone that just bought his first honing stone last week.

In my experience, Japanese chisels are very good for beginners. I started with Japanese chisels, and was able to get them and keep them sharp quite easily. In fact, in some ways, I think that Japanese chisels are easier for beginners to deal with since the bevel area of a typical Japanese chisel is larger than a western chisel of the same width, so it's easier for a beginner to register the bevel against the sharpening surface without relying on a jig.

I wouldn't, however, get the Japanese chisels sold at Woodcraft. There are better options out there.

[Archie England]

What's being suggested is this,

spend money on good sharpening tools. You're just not working on wood, you're working on the tools, too.

get a good starting reference point, so that begining this journey (down the slope, as we like to call it) will give you some way to measure how much you've grown. This is best done by buying the best, or getting it from someone who really knows their stuff.

the best route is the one that fits your budget, goals, and personality the best. So, don't get hung up on what everyone else is doing--do what you want and have fun.

buying sets may not be the best way to begin. You can always buy more!!! But what you need, as you need it. OTOH, sets sure are convenient. I didn't know I needed a 1/8" chisel until I discovered what a great help it was. Like one poster always ends his post, "Never wait until you need it to buy a tool" LOL!!!!

Do seek out instruction as you begin. There's nothing better than a good, patient encourager!

oh, yeah, start with attainable goals and post plenty of pics for us see.

[Harlan Barnhart]

Hi folks,

When I started into hand planes with little experience, I bought three before I learned what to look for. Now I have three boat anchors, although I have been able to salvage some parts (screws). On the bright side I paid no more than $20 each (including shipping). You could say I lost $60 or I gained a lot of experience about how planes work and what makes a good one.

My advise for a beginner with no frame of reference would be to buy a user tool from a woodworker of known ability, ie, one of the fine craftsmen represented on this forum. After a little experience you will be in a position to decide about laying out big money for new quality.

In general I think woodworkers today are spoiled with far too many quality tools. In years gone by people produced excellent work with far less. The most important woodworking tool is a good head with some experience.


peace,
Harlan

[Nathan Talbert]

I know this is off topic but Sam Maloof died on Thursday!!!

[Nathan Talbert]

Ok. So I took the Handtool Basics class at Woodcraft tonight. I learned several things and I'm glad I took the class. I bought the LN adjustable mouth block plane. For now I'll save money for the Work Sharp to sharpen my blades and start lapping my planes. I learned that it is better to buy a few tools and have a good way to sharpen them than to buy several tools and not have money left to be able to keep them sharp.

[Tri Hoang]

When I started into hand planes with little experience, I bought three before I learned what to look for. Now I have three boat anchors, although I have been able to salvage some parts (screws). On the bright side I paid no more than $20 each (including shipping). You could say I lost $60 or I gained a lot of experience about how planes work and what makes a good one.


"The most expensive tool is the one that does not work" as the saying goes. I'm glad I started out with LV planes. They helped me know what a properly tuned plane should cut like. It does not take long before I learned to tune up other planes. The sound of the cut tell you quite a bit about the condition of the plane/blade.

Sharpening is a must have skill to enjoy hand planes. A LN plane would just be a boat anchor if the blade is dull (maybe it's too pretty for that!). The down side is that once you learned to sharpen, those planes just mysteriously multiply.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think you are on to a very good start. It's really good that you are taking initiative to learn. Once you have a couple of good tools, skill to sharpen, and work on a few projects, you'll be have much clearer idea as to what tools you need. LN will be there when you need new tools. But I do recommend learning to sharp by hand, even by using honing jig. It's the most basic skill you need to have to use any edged tools. Work Sharp may serve you well, I think it's a very important skill to learn and have it available throughout your woodworking career.

[Wilbur Pan]

Ok. So I took the Handtool Basics class at Woodcraft tonight. I learned several things and I'm glad I took the class. I bought the LN adjustable mouth block plane.

I'm really glad the class worked out for you. After your report of your first visit to Woodcraft, I was feeling really bad. ;)

But now you have a set of skills, and an excellent plane. The LN block plane should give you a good idea of what a sharp blade and a tuned up plane should feel like in use.

I'd still try out your local woodworking club, and see if there's anyone there that uses hand tools. Hope that will work out as well.

[Nathan Talbert]

I will definately take your advice on learning to sharpen by hand. I also will keep my eyes open for old, good quality tools (ei. Bedrock, Disston, Record). New tools are nice, but there's something abouth a tool that has withstood the test of time. Wilber, I love the getting the education from Woodcraft, however I also like to bounce the info off you guys. Theres a proverb that goes, "In the multitude of councelors, there is safety." Thank you sirs for all you help!

[Tom Adger]

I recently bought an old Stanley 60 1/2 low angle block plane on ebay for under $30. It was in very good shape. This might be a good place for you to start, and give you some good practice on tuning up a plane.

There is a website called esnipe. I suggest you look at it. It automatically does your ebay bidding, up to a maximum you set. I had lost out on several ebay items in the past because I forgot to go check before the auction expired.

[lowell holmes]

Yes.
You just lift the iron or chisel slightly before the stroke. They cover the technique in the video. If the tool has never had a microbrvel put on it before, I might use a jig.

If I'm in a hurry, I just lift the end of the tool a very small amount. The movement is almost non detectable.

[Jim Koepke]

I had lost out on several ebay items in the past because I forgot to go check before the auction expired.

The lament of many an eBay bidder.

jim

[David Keller NC]

Nathan - I'm going to suggest that you give the Worksharp a pass for now. It's an excellent sharpening system for tools where a hollow grind is very undesirable - like carving tools (hollow grinds on these tools make them dig into the work, which isn't good).

But on a plane iron or a flat chisel, a hollow grind is what you want. While you can get by without it, having to grind off all of the bevel of the tool to re-establish the bevel angle wastes material on the blade and makes free-hand sharpening more challenging. Challenge is not what you want at this stage.

So if you're going to buy a power-grinding system, consider getting an inexpensive dry grinder, a diamond wheel dresser, and some replacement, very coarse Norton friable wheels. This will be your least expensive option, though you will have to train yourself to get a square edge and avoid drawing the temper by excessive heating of the tip.

A water-grinder avoids the excessive heating problem, but they are much slower and the good ones are considerably more expensive than a dry grinder set up.

If you like the idea of a neander-only shop, you can get a hand or foot cranked grinding wheel at MWTCA (Mid West Tool Collector's Association) events. These are often fairly inexpensive - in the less than $100 range.

[Nathan Talbert]

I don't get it. Why would I hollow grind the back and regrind the bevel. Why not just flatten the back and touch up the bevel using the Veritas honing guide and get the same angle every time. Reduplication = consistency = sharper tools & less time sharpening = more time woodworking = :D

[Tri Hoang]

You flatten the back and polish it. The hollow grind is done to the bevel side. Once it's hollow, you can sharpen it free hand and it takes very little to raise a wire edge. The advantage here is the ability to easily sharpen it without a jig.

If you decided to use a jig, there is no need to hollow grind. Typically, just grind the blade at 25* and set up your jig to hone a 30* bevel. It will create a secondary bevel at the tip of the blade...removing little bit of metal.

When you regrind the blade...stop short of reaching the tip of the blade (1/32" or so).

[Danny Thompson]

Don't fall into the trap, Nathan.

Microbevels, whether secondary or hollow grind, if honed at the same angle, wear the same and have the same propensity to nick. And subsequent grinding to remove the nicks requires the same amount of grinding and honing (grind away the full width of the microbevel and the nick).

If you use the hollow grind method the only benefit is that you can rehone an unnicked blade freehand. Okay, that's a plus. On the other hand, you have to make sure your grinding process is slow enough, cool enough, and accurate enough to establish a square and perfect angle between the two "corners" of the grind (the top and tip of the bevel must be aligned at the desired angle).

Now what beginner without a mentor can do all that?

On the other hand, a beginner could grind a reliable angle using a belt sander. Then jig up the blade in the Veritas MK.II for the microbevel, and done. Worst case, skip the belt sander, jig up, grind, spin a wheel to add 2º, and hone the microbevel.

Easy-peasy.

The angle of the microbevel is particularly important with bevel-up blades (your low angle block and jack planes).

Later, once you know what you are doing, then switch to honing freehand.

Caveat: Just last week I made a note to self: David Keller NC. listen to him, he really knows his stuff.

[David Keller NC]

"I don't get it. Why would I hollow grind the back and regrind the bevel. Why not just flatten the back and touch up the bevel using the Veritas honing guide and get the same angle every time. Reduplication = consistency = sharper tools & less time sharpening = more time woodworking = :D "

Nathan - the problem here is not the initial sharpening, nor even the 2nd sharpening. As Danny and Tri note, you don't hollow grind the back - you just flatten and polish it, and you only do this once for the life of the blade (ideally). Once the back has a mirror polish, the only stone that should touch it is an 8000 grit, or a translucent super-fine arkansas, or 0.3 micron abrasive paper (whatever your choice is - any of these are good systems).

On the bevel, though, think about the initial condition of the tool - it will have a flat bevel from the edge to the front of the blade, typically at 25 degrees. You need to polish at least some portion of this bevel to remove the factory grinding scratches, and one good way to do this is with a micro-bevel so that you don't have to hone the whole bevel (which can take a long time).

OK, so the next sharpening you will need to re-hone this microbevel. That's almost impossible free-hand if the whole of the rest of the bevel is flat, because when you rock the blade back and forth, what you will feel is the "clunk" of the tool on the majority of the bevel, not the steeper microbevel. So, you feel for the bevel, raise the blade slightly (guessing at the steepness of the microbevel), and give a few more strokes on your finest stone. If you guessed too low, you will need to raise it a bit more, and give it a few more strokes until you get a wire edge on the very tip of the iron. Because no one that I know of is good enough to get the iron at exactly the right angle to polish that microbevel and get a wire edge, you will wind up tipping the iron just a bit more steeply than the first microbevel. The overall effect after 3 or 4 honings is that the microbevel is now very steep, and the blade just doesn't have the sharpness feel that it did when you started, so you will then need to go back and grind off the entire bevel back to 25 degrees. Grinding an entire bevel off is a PITA by hand on abrasives, in my opinion, and it takes a while.

OK, second scenario. You grind a hollow on the primary bevel until you've replaced the whole thing with the new grinding scratches, and there's a wire edge at the tip. You then place that on your finest grit stone, give it about 5 strokes, and you notice that there's a nice shiny line on the very tip and at the very back where the bevel meets the front face of the blade. And the blade is quite sharp - easily enough to draw blood if you attempt to shave with it (please don't do that - cut a piece of paper with it if you want to test for sharpness).

To give the edge a bit more strength, you tilt the blade up a couple of degrees and give it 2 swipes backwards, creating a tiny micro-bevel. The next time you hone, you "feel for the bevel", which will give you the primary, hollow bevel. Now, unlike the flat-bevel scenario, you just draw the blade back 5 times on your finest stone, and the initial micro-bevel you put on it the first time is erased, and you only had to remove just a little metal - again on the very tip and that very back part where the blade face meets the bevel. Then, if you want to, you rock the blade 2 degrees up, and put on a new, tiny microbevel.

And you can do this 5 or 6 times until the hollow part of the bevel gets small enough that it takes too many strokes on your finest stone to re-establish the primary bevel all the way to the edge, so you just hollow-grind it again (very slightly - it doesn't take much).

Finally - you may ask, why can't I just use a honing jig in the instance of the flat bevel to only hone that micro-bevel that I put on the blade at the first sharpening? The reason is that no honing jig, and I don't care how nice or how fancy, will allow you to reproduce the exact angle to only hone that microbevel - you will still have to bias your guess to the steeper side, which will result in an ever-steeper microbevel as in scenario #1.

So - what I'm telling you is that you can indeed work with just sandpaper and a flat plate of some sort, and it will get you working. It will just take a bit more work in honing off the entire bevel as described above. But, if you're going to drop $250 on a power-sharpening system, do it on a tool that will allow you to get a hollow grind. Unless you're a carver, it's a much better deal.

[David Keller NC]

Caveat: Just last week I made a note to self: David Keller NC. listen to him, he really knows his stuff.

Thanks for the compliment, Danny, but I'm no superstar. My purpose for being on this and other WW forums is that I made a heck of a lot of really frustrating mistakes 10 to 15 years ago, and maybe, just maybe, I can keep someone else just starting up from repeating the dumb-a$$ed moves I made back then without an internet forum and/or handy mentor down the block to show me what I was doing wrong. But that doesn't mean "my way or the highway" by any means - there's lots of ways to get things done in the shop, particularly when it comes to hand tools.:)

[Danny Thompson]

Does anyone hollow-grind their Lie-Nielsen Chisels? Does anyone know why Lie-Nielsen recommends a 35º secondary bevel on their chisels, but not hollow-grinding?

[David Keller NC]

Danny - to my knowledge, Lie-nielsen doesn't recommend against grinding the chisel bevel hollow. Their website just notes that the tool's supplied with a flat bevel. This is typical of most tool manufacturers that use either extremely large wheels (so the hollow is tiny if it can be detected at all) or belt-grinders.

I've talked to L-N about the bevel angle on their chisels. Mine were some of the first they made, and showed a disturbing tendency to chip along the edge or roll over. They advised that they recommended the 35 degree microbevel for edge strength, as A2 can be somewhat brittle.

They also advised that they'd had some tempering issues with the very first production of some of their edge tools, and advised that I send them back for evaluation. I did grind the bevels steeper (hollow) which somewhat allieviated the problem, but I think in contrast to other creekers that have noted that their bevel edged socket chisels from L-N held a superb edge, mine are still somewhat problematic. I haven't sent them back yet, though.