Festool saw guide? [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Christian Aufreiter

08-11-2004, 4:31 AM

I think Jim and Todd explained the advantages of the Festool system very well.
I'd like to add that the Festool saw (which is an integral part of the Festool system) is another important argument for using the Festool rails:
- excellent dust collection with every cut.
- adjustable speed for cutting plastics, aluminum, etc.
- plunge cuts
- electronic speed control to maintain speed.
- riving knife.
....

Festool doesn't only offer guide rails for a circular saw, they offer an incorporated system consisting of jigs saws, plunge saws, routers, rails and accessories.

Todd Burch wrote:
7) Festool's setup does not allow you to veer off like your (my other) system will - it's riding in a track and does not require lateral pressure on the operator's part to keep it in line.

It's really important to notice the difference between a shopmade rail (which certainly works ok) and the guidance of the Festool rails.

Regards,

Christian

Tyler Howell

08-11-2004, 6:00 AM

Dan Mages

08-11-2004, 8:26 AM

Stop, Stop, I'm sold already, Bob take My money! New pool and boat this year.:D Another Great debate. Why didn't I know about this place when I was rich:confused: Oh yah I've never been rich.

Thanks Great Info.;)
Tyler, that is known as the Great Festool Arm Twisting Dance!! You better give in now, or they will put you in a full body cast!!

Dan

Tyler Howell

08-11-2004, 8:42 AM

Thanks Dan,

Putting together the wish list now. Also checking the mattress and under couch cushions for extra cash. :D
I've always been sold, it's been a matter of getting my priorities straight.;)

Mark Singer

08-11-2004, 9:26 AM

I have the Festool Saw and rail system and have used other circular saws for years with Tru Grip and other straight edges. The biggest difference is the final cut...the staight line and clean surface allows for edge banding or trimming directly without other operations...on plannig or jointing and the plywood veneer is perfect. Thanks Bob Marino!

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 9:55 AM

Let's not forget Sir Dino's competitive EZ guide system!! I have it but it is still in its box since I have, uh, other things going on in my garage right now. I picked mine up in one of the auctions he ran a few weeks back so I got a killer deal on it but we all know Festool makes some dynamite, albeit expensive, equipment! :D

BTW, one of the labels on my systainer for the 150/5 ROS came off!!!! What's up wid dat??? ;)

russ bransford

08-11-2004, 10:46 AM

Jamie, keep the saw you have in the picture and put it with a Eurekazone Smart Guide System and you'll have a better cut for less money. You'll have the zero clearance edge, the track to guide the saw, no tearout even on the drop-off piece(except with the smart guide there is no bad edge to drop off, both sides of the cut are good pieces, you haven't messed up part of your panel), and 50" sections that connect to go 100-150-200 whatever.

Charles McKinley

08-11-2004, 11:04 AM

Hi Jamie,

The next guide like yours I make I will leave more material on the edge away from the blade so the clamp doesn't interfere with the saw. This system works ok I'm just looking for a little more accuracy and the dust collection on the festool is a big plus in my mind. The sliding table would give me repeatability.

russ bransford

08-11-2004, 11:36 AM

Chris, take it out of the box. You have no idea of what all you can do with what you now have.

Russ

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 11:37 AM

Jamie Buxton

08-11-2004, 11:41 AM

Thank you all for your advice. I'm not sure the advantages add up to $600 yet for me, but I am a pinch-penny.

As I think this through, let me "think out loud" by listing the arguments for the Festool and adding the counterarguments for the low-bucks solution...

1) The Festool guide works without being clamped
Advantage to Festool. I use clamps on the low-bucks solution all the time. (But I wonder how Festool does that?)
2) The Festool guide has a renewable "zero" clearance edge that insures the good side of the cut has no tearout
So does the low-bucks solution: make a new guide. It takes perhaps 20 minutes.
3) The Festool plunge saw is engineered to work with very close tolerances with the guide system
I don't know what the tolerances of the low-bucks approach are. I've never noticed a problem big enough that I've paid any attention.
4) The Festool plunge saw leaves a cut that rivals most table saws and when used with the vac, almost no dust...which means you can use it inside someone's home without trashing it completely!
My current generation of guide+saw leaves a cut which is indistinguishable from my Unisaw. My previous generation wasn't as good. The circular saw in that one had end-play on the blade. The saw eventually got stolen, and in shopping for its replacement I looked for a saw without end-play. I also was prepared to tune the saw shoe so that the left edge is parallel to the blade, but was pleasantly surprised to find that this PC was good right out of the box.
The dust collection on the Porter-Cable works pretty well, but I don't use it much. I've never needed to cut plywood panels in somebody's home -- it's shop work for me.
5) The same guide system will work with the Festool jigsaw and router, should you take the pill and submit to assimilation
Aieee, my Scottish genes are wincing already!
6) Bob Marino is a really nice fellow to do business with...
Good suppliers are to be treasured.
7) Festool's setup does not allow you to veer off like your (my other) system will - it's riding in a track and does not require lateral pressure on the operator's part to keep it in line.
Advantage Festool. Back when I was learning to use the low-bucks version, I'd occasionally make that mistake. I've learned, and don't do that now. It helps to use a sharp blade.
8) If you do want to clamp the Festool rail, and I always do,
hmm, conflicting user experience between Jim and Todd?
the clamps don't get in your way like the spring clamps do (or like a c-clamp will).
My guide is wide enough that the spring clamps can get completely clear of the motor. I use spring clamps because they are fast, and because they are low profile. Low profile does help when I'm cutting near the edge of the plywood sheet and I need to pull the clamps in closer.
I find myself having to negotiate the proper blade depth to a) get through my material, b) not get into my work surface and c) still have the motor housing clear the clamp.
My low-bucks guide uses 1/8 ply for the bottom sheet. That helps the negotiation a little. I can keep the saw body high to clear the clamp while still having enough depth to cut through the plywood.
Let's not forget Sir Dino's competitive EZ guide system!!
Oh boy, another variable to consider!

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 11:42 AM

Chris, take it out of the box. You have no idea of what all you can do with what you now have.

Russ

Russ,

Psssst! http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10600 ;)

BTW, Welcome to the Creek!! Great place to wade in or just stay permanently! :D

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 11:45 AM

1) The Festool guide works without being clamped
Advantage to Festool. I use clamps on the low-bucks solution all the time. (But I wonder how Festool does that?)They have some sort of a rubber backing that sticks nicely to the wood.

Let's not forget Sir Dino's competitive EZ guide system!!
Oh boy, another variable to consider!:D :D :D I have a way for you to check it out for free! :D :D :D

Christian Aufreiter

08-11-2004, 1:21 PM

russ bransford wrote:
Jamie, keep the saw you have in the picture and put it with a Eurekazone Smart Guide System and you'll have a better cut for less money. You'll have the zero clearance edge, the track to guide the saw, no tearout even on the drop-off piece(except with the smart guide there is no bad edge to drop off, both sides of the cut are good pieces, you haven't messed up part of your panel), and 50" sections that connect to go 100-150-200 whatever.

Better (and less money) than what? Better than Jamie's current setup or better than the Festool system (plunge saw + guide rails + accessories)?

Jamie Buxton wrote:

Thank you all for your advice. I'm not sure the advantages add up to $600 yet for me, but I am a pinch-penny.

Why $ 600?
You pay $ 375 and get the ATF55 E-Plus Plunge Cut Circular Saw which includes:
- ATF 55 E
- ATB48 HW Fine Tooth Saw Blade
- FS1400 Guide Rail
- Systainer #4

IMO it's important that you don't only get a guide rail and a simple circular saw, no, you get certainly one of the best (Mafell is probably close to Festool) high end plunge saws which offers unique features a typical US circular saw doesn't have.

1) The Festool guide works without being clamped
Advantage to Festool. I use clamps on the low-bucks solution all the time. (But I wonder how Festool does that?)
2) The Festool guide has a renewable "zero" clearance edge that insures the good side of the cut has no tearout
So does the low-bucks solution: make a new guide. It takes perhaps 20 minutes.
3) The Festool plunge saw is engineered to work with very close tolerances with the guide system
I don't know what the tolerances of the low-bucks approach are. I've never noticed a problem big enough that I've paid any attention.
4) The Festool plunge saw leaves a cut that rivals most table saws and when used with the vac, almost no dust...which means you can use it inside someone's home without trashing it completely!
My current generation of guide+saw leaves a cut which is indistinguishable from my Unisaw. My previous generation wasn't as good. The circular saw in that one had end-play on the blade. The saw eventually got stolen, and in shopping for its replacement I looked for a saw without end-play. I also was prepared to tune the saw shoe so that the left edge is parallel to the blade, but was pleasantly surprised to find that this PC was good right out of the box.
The dust collection on the Porter-Cable works pretty well, but I don't use it much. I've never needed to cut plywood panels in somebody's home -- it's shop work for me.
5) The same guide system will work with the Festool jigsaw and router, should you take the pill and submit to assimilation
Aieee, my Scottish genes are wincing already!
6) Bob Marino is a really nice fellow to do business with...
Good suppliers are to be treasured.
7) Festool's setup does not allow you to veer off like your (my other) system will - it's riding in a track and does not require lateral pressure on the operator's part to keep it in line.
Advantage Festool. Back when I was learning to use the low-bucks version, I'd occasionally make that mistake. I've learned, and don't do that now. It helps to use a sharp blade.
8) If you do want to clamp the Festool rail, and I always do,
hmm, conflicting user experience between Jim and Todd?
the clamps don't get in your way like the spring clamps do (or like a c-clamp will).
My guide is wide enough that the spring clamps can get completely clear of the motor. I use spring clamps because they are fast, and because they are low profile. Low profile does help when I'm cutting near the edge of the plywood sheet and I need to pull the clamps in closer.
I find myself having to negotiate the proper blade depth to a) get through my material, b) not get into my work surface and c) still have the motor housing clear the clamp.
My low-bucks guide uses 1/8 ply for the bottom sheet. That helps the negotiation a little. I can keep the saw body high to clear the clamp while still having enough depth to cut through the plywood.

I'd like to add a few comments:

1. The Festool rails use rubber strips which secure the rail on the workpiece.
2. I wonder how those cero clearance on your shopmade guide work when you make an angled cut.
4. Dust collection - this depends on your needs, of course.
8. Usually, I clamp down the rails and I can recommend this if you work with expensive pieces. But basically, you can use the rails without the clamps.

Regards,

Christian

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 1:32 PM

Why $ 600?
You pay $ 375 and get the ATF55 E-Plus Plunge Cut Circular Saw which includes:
- ATF 55 E
- ATB48 HW Fine Tooth Saw Blade
- FS1400 Guide Rail
- Systainer #4Regards,

Christian
Christian, I believe that $600 includes the C22E vacuum...I think?! :)

Jamie Buxton

08-11-2004, 1:45 PM

Jamie,

I was thinking...if you want to make a trip to San Jose, you are more than welcome to borrow my Eurekazone Guide System and I even have a Zero-Clearance SmartGuide that you can have for free!

You have my email...lemme know....

----->Chris

Chris, I just looked at Eurekazone's web site, and found it doesn't answer many obvious questions. Sales guys get so intent on selling something that they sometimes forget to tell you what they're selling. Maybe a little review by you would be in order -- in your copious free time!

Here's some questions....
* What is the system, and how does it distinguish itself from its competitors like Festool and my shop-built thing (what does Todd call it, a "zero-board"?)?
* When you fasten the saw into their carrier, is there some way to adjust the parallelism of the blade with the guide? (That's important for clean cuts and little splintering.)
* Does the carrier pop off easily, or is it a permanent addition to the saw? If it comes off, how is parallelism preserved?
* In some of the pictures, the supplied clamps look like they need a wrench to make them clamp. That seems so dumb that I don't believe I'm interpreting the pix correctly. How do they work?
* How well do the guide sections fit together to form a long one? I'd be concerned that they do not make a really straight guide.
* The anti-chip thing on the non-guide side of the blade looks like a really good feature. Does it work well? And if it is good, why do lots of pix on the site not show it?
* The site claims that you can make beveled cuts. Won't the blade cut the guide?

Jamie

Jamie Buxton

08-11-2004, 1:55 PM

Christian, I believe that $600 includes the C22E vacuum...I think?! :)

No, that's my mistake. I read a catalog price of $375 to be just the saw, not the saw plus guides. Now that I reread it, a 55" guide is included, so a 96" system would be more like $400.
Now that I read it more slowly, I also see that the saw has a 20 mm arbor. That means I can't use blades commonly available in the US, which isn't real convenient.

And Christian, you're right that if I make a beveled cut with my shop-built version, I cut the edge of the guide. Does the Festool somehow manage to preserve the zero-clearance anti-chip edge while allowing beveled cuts?

Jamie

russ bransford

08-11-2004, 1:56 PM

Christian,

Better than anything else...

Russ

Christian Aufreiter

08-11-2004, 2:15 PM

Jamie Buxton wrote:

Now that I read it more slowly, I also see that the saw has a 20 mm arbor. That means I can't use blades commonly available in the US, which isn't real convenient.

And Christian, you're right that if I make a beveled cut with my shop-built version, I cut the edge of the guide. Does the Festool somehow manage to preserve the zero-clearance anti-chip edge while allowing beveled cuts?

I understand that the 20 mm arbor is uncommon in the USA but as others already pointed out the quality of the Festool saw blades is excellent, so I think one can easily get along using Festool saw blades.

Yep, the Festool saw doesn't cut the anti-chip edge when you make beveled cuts. The reason is a patented part of the Festool saw but I can't explain this feature in English. I hope that Bob Marino joins this discussion and explains how it works.

Regards,

Christian

Christian Aufreiter

08-11-2004, 2:41 PM

russ bransford wrote:

Christian,

Better than anything else...

Russ

Russ, it would be nice if you give us a few examples and details about your comparison.
Which saw do you use?
To which rails, saws did you compare your setup?

Regards,

Christian

Bill Grumbine

08-11-2004, 2:49 PM

Now that I read it more slowly, I also see that the saw has a 20 mm arbor. That means I can't use blades commonly available in the US, which isn't real convenient.

Hi Jamie

I see this objection lots of times to things that aren't "common" to our regular hardware stores, home centers, etc. I do not think that it is a valid objection anymore. With mail order and the internet, so what if the size is an odd one? Why worry about being able to put a garden variety blade on the saw? The reason to buy it in the first place is its superior performance. Why reduce that performance with an inferior blade?

I bought a Bosch jigsaw about 17 years ago. At that time its bayonette mount was unusual and the blades for it were not always easy to find. I did not buy the salesman's assertions that breaking them would not really be an issue (as it was with my crappy universal mount saw). Well, I waffled for a long time before I finally gave in. All that did was cause me to struggle with my cheesy Black and Decker saw for a while longer. I am still using my Bosch saw - used it yesterday. The salesman was right - I think I have broken a total of three blades over the years. They are much easier to find now, even at Home Depot, but in the past, I just needed to plan my purchases so that I was sure to have them, a good idea for anything regardless of its availability. It is no fun going out to the store in the middle of a job, no matter how close it is.

To return to the Festool, it is an excellent tool. Sure, I was able to good work without it, but now I can do it faster and easier, and to me that is worth a lot more than what I spent on it. This might be a different consideration for a hobbyist, but even then, if time in the shop is limited, it sure is nice not to have to fiddle around.

Bill

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 3:02 PM

-- in your copious free time!
Jamie
:rolleyes: That is precisely why I offered it to YOU! That way, YOU can review it in your copious free time! :D

Seriously, I won't touch this system for a while...just no time right now. My offer still stands.

Chris Padilla

08-11-2004, 3:05 PM

I see this objection lots of times to things that aren't "common" to our regular hardware stores, home centers, etc. I do not think that it is a valid objection anymore. With mail order and the internet, so what if the size is an odd one? Why worry about being able to put a garden variety blade on the saw? The reason to buy it in the first place is its superior performance. Why reduce that performance with an inferior blade?
BillBill, I still think it is a valid objection. Don't assume that an inferior blade would be put on the saw...even in a pinch. The pinch is the gotcha every time. Sometimes getting by with a crappy blade for a few cuts is all you need to get the job done and out the door. You won't find a blade for the Festool in a pinch.

However, you have a good point: one could always order up a spare blade. Like with my Kreg jig and that "rather unusual" stepped drill bit. I have a spare just in case I break my original. Kreg even has a spot in their blow-molded case to store the spare bit. My spare has sat there for 2 years but it will be ready to go if I need it! What was that motto from the Boy Scouts (or was it Cub Scouts?): Be Prepared! :D

Bob Marino

08-11-2004, 3:37 PM

Jamie Buxton wrote:

Yep, the Festool saw doesn't cut the anti-chip edge when you make beveled cuts. The reason is a patented part of the Festool saw but I can't explain this feature in English. I hope that Bob Marino joins this discussion and explains how it works.

Regards,

Christian

Darned if I don't know that I can explain it either, other than to say that the blade pivots, while the base remains stationary, attached to the rail and allows bevel cuts without either adjusting the cut line or cutting the splintergaurd. Here's a pic.

The English translation is; "With conventional saws, the cutting edge is offset when you cut angles. With the ATF, the scribe line is always the cutting edge. Guaranteed and patented.

Paul Berendsohn

08-11-2004, 3:57 PM

Wow... how did I miss this thread? Jamie, I'm a big Eurekazone fan (have had the SmartGuide for a while now and am about to install the router guide). I think the earlier fella had it right when he suggested that until you've used it you just can't appreciate how it will genuinely transform your carpentry. Imagine making cuts with zero...literally zero splintering on BOTH sides, gives zero offset, works with your existing saw (not to mention router), infinitely expandable... let's see... what have I forgotten?

There have been so many long running threads about this subject I don't want to rehash it again (unless you want me to ;) ) but let me tell you this. Recently a friend of mine was on the fence about buying one from Dino, and I told him I was so sure he'd love it that if he didn't I'd buy it back from him myself because I plan on getting a second one...

Do it... you'll never look back.

PS: re: your questions...You can make beveled cuts without cutting the edge, you don't need a wrench for the clamps (only to use the connectors to join guide sections, and believe me they are strongggg), you can remove the saw if you need to (I haven't found it necessary myself). I miss anything?

Paul

JayStPeter

08-11-2004, 4:04 PM

No, that's my mistake. I read a catalog price of $375 to be just the saw, not the saw plus guides. Now that I reread it, a 55" guide is included, so a 96" system would be more like $400.
Now that I read it more slowly, I also see that the saw has a 20 mm arbor. That means I can't use blades commonly available in the US, which isn't real convenient.

And Christian, you're right that if I make a beveled cut with my shop-built version, I cut the edge of the guide. Does the Festool somehow manage to preserve the zero-clearance anti-chip edge while allowing beveled cuts?

Jamie

At the end of the day, it is a little more than $400, but much less than $600. To get 8' capability, you need another 55" guide, and 2-connectors. It is probably useful to get a set of clamps. If you want to use the dust collection, you also need a way to hook it up. You can rig something, but a Festool hose is the best solution. Your choice of what to attach it to. So, I'd figure with tax and shipping, near $500.

As for the blades, the Festool blade is not extremely expensive and is much better than any I've used on my regular circular saw (even ones that cost as much). Forrest also makes a blade for it, but you don't want to know the cost.

It's definitely expensive, and I could argue the case either way. The homemade guide definitely does the job reasonably. But, the Festool is a fantastic tool. And, as I've said before ... Every time I use it I enjoy it, and that's what it's all about for me.

Greg Mann

08-11-2004, 5:19 PM

literally zero splintering on BOTH sides,

There have been so many long running threads about this subject I don't want to rehash it again (unless you want me to ;) ) but let me tell you this. Recently a friend of mine was on the fence about buying one from Dino, and I told him I was so sure he'd love it that if he didn't I'd buy it back from him myself because I plan on getting a second one...
Paul
While the Eurekazone has the ability to avoid splintering on both sides of a cut, it accomplishes it at the expense of quite a bit of base overhang on the offcut side. True, the Festool disregards this feature but an enterprising user could probably come up with a small overhanging bracket to hold a splintergaurd IF he determined it to be important. What the Festool may give up in off-cut splintering it very well may gain back in accessability. In trim work, a cut can be made within 1/2 inch of obstructions such as walls, that is, 1/2 inch from obstruction to finish cut on the splinter-free side of the blade. Not many (any?) other saws can do that. I have read comments by flooring guys that love that feature. We pay our money and take our choice. Also, while it may be unimportant to many of us, the variable speed features of the saw allow cutting of everything up to and including aluminum and corian and probably other things I don't know about. And how many of us tempt fate by not having an extra blade around? Festool's blades run from $21 to $49 for the ATF55 and nobody has ever written they are anything but top quality. If we get caught short, then we deserve what we get.

Festool can guarantee splinter-free bevel cuts because they designed the axis of rotation for the bevel to fall right on the edge defined by the cut-line. As good as the Eurekazone is, and I am disputing its quality, it cannot guarantee that performance unless it accommodates the rotational design of every model of saw mounted on it. I may be wrong but I don't know if that is possible.

Paul, you and I are in agreement on one thing. We will be debating this once a month forever. My fellow Festoolies will have to hold down the fort in September without me. I'll be on vacation.:rolleyes:

Greg

Paul Berendsohn

08-11-2004, 5:31 PM

LOLLLL... I just knew if I waited a bit a Festooler would throw down the gauntlet Greg ;)

Well... I suppose there are circumstances in which someone such as a floorer would need every inch of clearance. However for the 99.9 % of us that aren't floorers, how much time and material costs do you suppose are saved by not having to recut the "waste" side to get a clean edge each time? I recently built a cabinet for a friend out of birch ply and I bet that not having to recut or worry about "good" edges etc in the process cut my construction time nearly in half. In any event I'll let you get going on vacation, I'm sure another Festoolian (Christian? you out there?) will take up the cause.

Besides, it's time for me to go home... have a good night all!

Paul

russ bransford

08-11-2004, 5:50 PM

Christian, The comparison you would be interested in was against the Festool ATF 55E. The cuts were made on melamine.The saw was a 7 1/4 Bosch with a 40t Freud Diablo blade.The Eurekazone was smooth on both sides of the cut. The clamps slide and swivel to hold narrow and odd-shaped pieces. The EZ Smart table provided room for the clamps to slide under the guide and provided support for the cut.The Festool was smooth on one side of the cut.

The comparison against a Powermatic panel saw was not even close. The birch plywood tearout meant you had to re-cut to the final size.

The comparison to a Dewalt contractor saw was done also on birch plywood and the table saw left a good edge but not a smooth edge.

These tests were done just on an ad hoc basis for my own benefit.

I like using a guide rail instead of the other methods. It's safer, and more versatile. I like the look of the Festool systems and some of the designs. I just don't like being locked into a system. A matched set of clubs is one thing but a matched set of tools I just can't afford. Both the Festool and the Eurekazone are improving the cut without requiring immediate new skills. One works toward a system, and one works toward versatility and affordabilty.

It always comes down to a combination of time, talent, and money.

Both work well, I just like what I have. It saves me t,t and $.

.....Russ

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 5:57 PM

Christian Aufreiter

08-11-2004, 6:26 PM

Paul Berendsohn wrote:

LOLLLL... I just knew if I waited a bit a Festooler would throw down the gauntlet Greg

Well... I suppose there are circumstances in which someone such as a floorer would need every inch of clearance. However for the 99.9 % of us that aren't floorers, how much time and material costs do you suppose are saved by not having to recut the "waste" side to get a clean edge each time? I recently built a cabinet for a friend out of birch ply and I bet that not having to recut or worry about "good" edges etc in the process cut my construction time nearly in half. In any event I'll let you get going on vacation, I'm sure another Festoolian (Christian? you out there?) will take up the cause.

Besides, it's time for me to go home... have a good night all!

Paul

Paul, you already missed me, that's sweet :D
It's probably true that the majority of SMC posters aren't floorers but I'm sure that there's a number of Festool customers who appreciate the Festool's ability to do false joint. And even as a hobby woodworker you can use this feature if you install a ceiling or a floor.
There's no doubt that the fact that the Eureka rails offers zero clearance on both sides is an advantage. IMO the Festool saw with the 48 teeth blade comes still very close because I found out that those zero clearance edges are primarily the result of a high quality blade.

russ bransford wrote:

I like using a guide rail instead of the other methods. It's safer, and more versatile. I like the look of the Festool systems and some of the designs. I just don't like being locked into a system. A matched set of clubs is one thing but a matched set of tools I just can't afford. Both the Festool and the Eurekazone are improving the cut without requiring immediate new skills. One works toward a system, and one works toward versatility and affordabilty.

It always comes down to a combination of time, talent, and money.

Both work well, I just like what I have. It saves me t,t and $.

.....Russ

Russ, thanks for the details of your comparison. As I already stated, the zero clearance on both edges is an advantage of the Eureka rails.
But this does still not explain why the Eureka system is far better (and cheaper) than anything else. For example, Greg pointed out that the Festool saw has variable speed.
It's definitely not true that you are locked to a system if you buy the Festool saw and rail combination. You can still buy any tools you want but actually, once many people have used a Festool they don't want to buy anything else because they simply love the Festool quality.

Dino Makropoulos wrote:

Do you know of any other guide system on any other tool that can give you clean cuts up and down,left and right of your cut, with or without the use of the rail and with a $10.00 blade? That you can get anywhere?

And if you think that your tool can do it as good as the EZSmart why don't you (or anyone else) take the eurekazone challenge? You have nothing to loose and $10.000.00 cash to win.

Dino, I don't see any advantage in using a cheap saw blade. Ok, using your saw base you might achieve splinter free cuts but a good saw blade cuts faster and leaves a superior surface (on the edge).
BTW, some people already mentioned (not in this thread) they had difficulties attaching your base to their saw if I remember correctly.

I'd take you challenge but would you be so kind and bring your system to Austria?

Regards,

Christian

Bob Marino

08-11-2004, 6:29 PM

Hello My friend C.
Today I'm Dino, your carpenter friend. Forget the CEO and the crap.

Do you know of any other guide system on any other tool that can give you clean cuts up and down,left and right of your cut, with or without the use of the rail and with a $10.00 blade? That you can get anywhere?

And if you think that your tool can do it as good as the EZSmart why don't you (or anyone else) take the eurekazone challenge? You have nothing to loose and $10.000.00 cash to win.

And please.. don't start the BS that is not about the guide.You don't... want me to go there..Yet.
YCF Dino
Dino,

I must repeat again my comments that apperared when a similar type of post by you came up on another forum. And that is that these forums are the place where information is exchanged. It can be provided by anyone, and sometimes a rep/employee or even CEO posts about a product where there is a point of information to be had, not to editorialize, or "challenge".
You have a quality product and many are quite happy with it as are those who own other systems. I have read many posts by Tom Lie Nielson and Rob Lee and have never heard of them engaging in a "my tool is better than your tool" post. Never.
Why not leave the editorializing to the consumers?

Bob

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 6:32 PM

Chris, I just looked at Eurekazone's web site, and found it doesn't answer many obvious questions. Sales guys get so intent on selling something that they sometimes forget to tell you what they're selling. Maybe a little review by you would be in order -- in your copious free time!

Here's some questions....
* What is the system, and how does it distinguish itself from its competitors like Festool and my shop-built thing (what does Todd call it, a "zero-board"?)?
* When you fasten the saw into their carrier, is there some way to adjust the parallelism of the blade with the guide? (That's important for clean cuts and little splintering.)
* Does the carrier pop off easily, or is it a permanent addition to the saw? If it comes off, how is parallelism preserved?
* In some of the pictures, the supplied clamps look like they need a wrench to make them clamp. That seems so dumb that I don't believe I'm interpreting the pix correctly. How do they work?
* How well do the guide sections fit together to form a long one? I'd be concerned that they do not make a really straight guide.
* The anti-chip thing on the non-guide side of the blade looks like a really good feature. Does it work well? And if it is good, why do lots of pix on the site not show it?
* The site claims that you can make beveled cuts. Won't the blade cut the guide?

Jamie
*1.There is nothing to compare the EZSmart at this time. I'm sure when our patents exp. in 20 years we can revisit your question.
*2. The smart base provides 2 Alingment ribs.
*3 The Smart base can be remove if you choose the removable installation. But Why? Its better to keep it on to protect the materials and your saw. And you get clean cuts with another antichip insert.*4. I agree with you that the clamps look Dumd at first,but we don't name them Smart clamps for ...that. You may want to revisit the site. What we have here is the First and only clamps that rotate and stay on the guide and transform the EZSmart into a jointer and straight line rip saw.
*5 the guide sections don't fit together. They become one with Not 1 ,not 2 but 3 SELF ALIGN connectors.
*6 Do you think I will bet $10.000.00 if the antichip Don't work?
*7. The dual tracks on the smart base...Please go back to www.eurekazone.com and spend some time. there is to many FIRST EVER Inventions on the site and You can't get them all in few minutes.

Thanks
YCF Dino

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 6:45 PM

Hi Bob.
I'm asking the same question.
Why not give the consumers a true test of both systems?
And stop playing this game.
After all I don't even mention your Co.
It was a general woodworking question.
Like yours.
Regards.
YCF Dino

John Shuk

08-11-2004, 6:47 PM

WHOA! THAT WAS A BIG STICK THAT SOMEBODY USED TO SMACK THAT HORNET'S NEST! :eek:

Bob Marino

08-11-2004, 6:55 PM

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 6:59 PM

Paul Berendsohn wrote:

Paul, you already missed me, that's sweet :D
It's probably true that the majority of SMC posters aren't floorers but I'm sure that there's a number of Festool customers who appreciate the Festool's ability to do false joint. And even as a hobby woodworker you can use this feature if you install a ceiling or a floor.
There's no doubt that the fact that the Eureka rails offers zero clearance on both sides is an advantage. IMO the Festool saw with the 48 teeth blade comes still very close because I found out that those zero clearance edges are primarily the result of a high quality blade.

russ bransford wrote:

Russ, thanks for the details of your comparison. As I already stated, the zero clearance on both edges is an advantage of the Eureka rails.
But this does still not explain why the Eureka system is far better (and cheaper) than anything else. For example, Greg pointed out that the Festool saw has variable speed.
It's definitely not true that you are locked to a system if you buy the Festool saw and rail combination. You can still buy any tools you want but actually, once many people have used a Festool they don't want to buy anything else because they simply love the Festool quality.

Dino Makropoulos wrote:

Dino, I don't see any advantage in using a cheap saw blade. Ok, using your saw base you might achieve splinter free cuts but a good saw blade cuts faster and leaves a superior surface (on the edge).
BTW, some people already mentioned (not in this thread) they had difficulties attaching your base to their saw if I remember correctly.

I'd take you challenge but would you be so kind and bring your system to Austria?

Regards,

Christian
I think I will . If you allow me to videotape.
Yes some people may have problems with the base if they don't read and follow the directions. And I know of many problems with your system that people complain about. So What?
And about the saw blade. If I can get chip free cuts with a $10.00 blade Imagine how good it will be with a $15.00 blade.
You know what? I don't even have to come to Austria. I have many Costumers in EU that they will be glad to. Let me know and I will arange the details.
So, What was your answer? Its not about the rails?
Regards
Dino

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 7:14 PM

While the Eurekazone has the ability to avoid splintering on both sides of a cut, it accomplishes it at the expense of quite a bit of base overhang on the offcut side. True, the Festool disregards this feature but an enterprising user could probably come up with a small overhanging bracket to hold a splintergaurd IF he determined it to be important. What the Festool may give up in off-cut splintering it very well may gain back in accessability. In trim work, a cut can be made within 1/2 inch of obstructions such as walls, that is, 1/2 inch from obstruction to finish cut on the splinter-free side of the blade. Not many (any?) other saws can do that. I have read comments by flooring guys that love that feature. We pay our money and take our choice. Also, while it may be unimportant to many of us, the variable speed features of the saw allow cutting of everything up to and including aluminum and corian and probably other things I don't know about. And how many of us tempt fate by not having an extra blade around? Festool's blades run from $21 to $49 for the ATF55 and nobody has ever written they are anything but top quality. If we get caught short, then we deserve what we get.

Festool can guarantee splinter-free bevel cuts because they designed the axis of rotation for the bevel to fall right on the edge defined by the cut-line. As good as the Eurekazone is, and I am disputing its quality, it cannot guarantee that performance unless it accommodates the rotational design of every model of saw mounted on it. I may be wrong but I don't know if that is possible.

Paul, you and I are in agreement on one thing. We will be debating this once a month forever. My fellow Festoolies will have to hold down the fort in September without me. I'll be on vacation.:rolleyes:

Greg
If you're disputing its quality why don't You take the challenge?
Enjoy your vacation first.
YCF Dino

Jamie Buxton

08-11-2004, 7:46 PM

Dino ---

As the guy who started this thread, and a guy who has no brand-loyalty axes to grind, I have to say I'm disappointed in your postings. Before you posted, we were having a good discussion of the pros and cons of these various similar systems. Yes, there were some brand loyalties, but the focus was on the facts and the technical merits. The discussion was based on real user experience, which is the best kind.

You, obviously, are quite proud of your device. You also have a great deal of information which would be valuable to this discussion. However, confrontation and challenges do not sell products to customers like me. What does sell to me is clear explanation of the merits of the product. I'd appreciate it if you'd back off on the confrontation, and step up on the clear explanation.

Jamie Buxton

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 8:12 PM

Dino,

Maybe you need to reread my post.

Bob
Hi Bob. Looks like some people like to turn this and other forums to a private country club that is open to anyone as long he..agrees with them.
And even better if they become members for second time around by becoming the proud owners of the same kind.
And that's fine with me as long the whole forum is private. You see, you can't have it both ways.

Any way,Do you really want me to believe that a young woodworker (wantobee)
From Austria have nothing else to do but to monitor all the US forums and Give the American consumer Advice?
What is the diference between Me, You, C. or few others?
At list I'm not hiding behind the bush and I offer a challenge that can put an end to this Game.
I don't create this I'm just responding.
Regards
Dino

Greg Mann

08-11-2004, 9:14 PM

Paul, at no time was I indicating deficiencies in the SmartGuide system, only differences. I have no intention, Dino, in taking up a challenge. In the past I have praised you for not taking potshots at Festool but I may have to re-think my position regarding that.

In all of these similar threads I cannot remember any Festool advocate claim that the SmartGuide could not produce a fine cut. Why should they? They understand the concept because it is the same concept that they have embraced with their Festools. It is only execution of the details that is different. There have been, however, implications made that the SmartGuide can produce superior results with a POS blade. Give me a break. I know what I get with my Festool system and I am not about to get sucked into a microscopic comparison of surface finishes. I have machined sealing surfaces in aluminum, steel, cast iron, etc. to various standards most of my life and I have learned enough to know this whole mine-is-better-than-yours argument is totally bogus. There are an infinite number of variables that could sabotage a surface finish that, if present, neither system could eliminate. There are many fine gentlemen who have posted saying they are totally satisfied with the results they from their respective systems. Great. They both can produce what the user wants. Now the discussion comes down to preferences for this feature or that, some of which are mutually exclusive. Itemizing these differences is not criticism, it just serves to help someone make an informed decision about which way they might choose to go.

This whole forum category is about the evolution and improvement of the techniques and tools we use to follow our passion. When we discuss innovative tools,like both of these, we need to think in terms of their place in that progression. Henry Ford was considered a genius but if he had thought of it he would have made the Taurus first instead of the Model T. Even if he had I am sure someone here would have observed: 'Yeah, but it sure won't haul plywood like the F-150.'
Greg

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 9:17 PM

[QUOTE=Jamie Buxton]Dino ---

As the guy who started this thread, and a guy who has no brand-loyalty axes to grind, I have to say I'm disappointed in your postings. Before you posted, we were having a good discussion of the pros and cons of these various similar systems. Yes, there were some brand loyalties, but the focus was on the facts and the technical merits. The discussion was based on real user experience, which is the best kind.

You, obviously, are quite proud of your device. You also have a great deal of information which would be valuable to this discussion. However, confrontation and challenges do not sell products to customers like me. What does sell to me is clear explanation of the merits of the product. I'd appreciate it if you'd back off on the confrontation, and step up on the clear explanation.

Hi Jamie.
I think I answer to all of your technical questions. Without Any Challenge or Confortation to YOU. One By One.
The clear explanation is That the EZSmart is the only guide system that can give you all the benefits of all other systems combine plus some more unique features that they will allow anyone to work safe and smart with better quality without going broke. That's the clear explanation
Regards
Dino

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 9:48 PM

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And how many of us tempt fate by not having an extra blade around? Festool's blades run from $21 to $49 for the ATF55 and nobody has ever written they are anything but top quality. If we get caught short, then we deserve what we get.

Festool can guarantee splinter-free bevel cuts because they designed the axis of rotation for the bevel to fall right on the edge defined by the cut-line. As good as the Eurekazone is, and I am disputing its quality, it cannot guarantee that performance unless it accommodates the rotational design of every model of saw mounted on it. I may be wrong but I don't know if that is possible
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.What are you saying? 1.( If we get caught short, then we deserve what we get.) 2.As good as the Eurekazone is, and I am disputing its quality,

1.You remind me of another woodworker from Austria who told me... With my 48 teeth blade I have no need for your $3.50 Antichip insert.
2. Disputing the quality? No problem. But why you complain about the challenge? If you have the right to dispute,dont I have the right to challenge you?
This is the problem here.Instead opening your eyes you're trying to keep all others blind.
Regards
Dino

Greg Mann

08-11-2004, 9:58 PM

Dino Makropoulos

08-11-2004, 10:13 PM

My quote was:

[As good as the Eurekazone is, and I am disputing its quality, it cannot guarantee that performance unless it accommodates the rotational design of every model of saw mounted on it. ]

My mistake, Dino. I meant to say 'and I am NOT disputing its quality'. That omission changed the flavor of everything that followed and that was NOT my intent. Sorry for the confusion.

My reference to deserving what we get is analogous to traveling without a spare tire, not smart.

Greg
Greg, Enjoy your vacation my friend.And let me tell you something to make your vacation even better. My son goes to the vocational school (to become a carpenter) with a F-----l t-short.And I give it to him.
The (potshots) is not against any CO. Its against some who think that all others 're stupid.
Enjoy and drive safe.
YCF Dino

Ken Fitzgerald

08-11-2004, 10:53 PM

Tyler....Chris......it may be time for you two to start sharing some of you "MEDS"............. :eek: :p :rolleyes: :D

John Miliunas

08-11-2004, 11:03 PM

Jamie, allow me to give you my perspective on this situation, primarily as it relates to the Smart Guide System. Mind you, you're getting this from a real die-hard Festoolie! First, I would love to say that I've been able to do an A/B comparison of the systems, but alas, funds would not allow for both and I already had a "collection" of respectable circular saws. That said, I'm the proud owner of the SG1 system. I have recently had the unenviable task of literally rebuilding one of our home's outside walls, including the outside sheathing and T1-11. With as much rot as we found in the studs and there being a LOT of window/patio door area, I also opted to sheath the inside off the wall with CDX prior to putting on the drywall, as well, primarily to give the wall a bit more rigidity. Every last piece of sheet-goods was done with my Dewalt circular saw and the SG system. It's an older home and has gone through a fair amount of settling, hence not all the cuts necessary were at 90*. The SG came through with flying colors! Fast, predictable, clean and SAFE cuts! I don't believe I could've done all the weird cuts on my TS. This included plunge cuts, which maybe not as elegantly done as with the Festool, still quite easy and accurate. To finish inside cuts for around the window and patio doors, I stopped short of the corner and used my Festool jigsaw to finish the cuts. Everything was on the money! The T1-11 needed a few butt joints to get around utility boxes and such and, the splinter-free cuts made those seems virtually invisible. The project also required me to do some filler pieces of lumber stock for around the patio doors and window (remember, I said this is an *old* place!) and the clamping system of the SG1 made this pretty easy. Even our carpenter friend, who we hired to help with the project, was impressed and that's not always an easy thing to do! :)

Bottom line for me: The SG1 did everything it's purported to do and did so in a resoundingly high fashion! I believe it's allowed me to do work which I may not have otherwise been able to do, or at least, not as easily and safely. I'm not about to get into the "this vs. that" brand. You'd have to pry my various Festool products out of my cold, dead fingers before I gave them up, but the SG1 ranks right up there, as well! Yes, our friend Dino does, at times, get a bit overzealous regarding his product, but don't let that detract you from getting into a quality product! Whatever you choose, it should serve YOUR needs and YOUR budget! If I had the $$, would I get into a nice slider TS? You bet! Would I then put my SG1 away or for sale on eBay? Not a chance! Sorry I got a bit long-winded there, but just wanted to relay some of my personal experience with a specific tool albeit, with some random editorializing.... :rolleyes:

Dennis Peacock

08-11-2004, 11:12 PM

No, I'm not THE moderator of THIS forum, but I am an SMC moderator.

I have deleted threads that have started getting out of hand like this.

PLEASE....let's just chill out and let this be a place of enjoyment.? Please?

Cecil Arnold

08-11-2004, 11:36 PM

Way to go Dennis, it was time for someone to toss some icewater on this.

Dave Hammelef

08-11-2004, 11:56 PM

Wow, I have been only doing brief visits to the woodworking forums of late. Been real busy at work and home, and free time has gone to the corvair. But it looks like i have missed some good debates. My 2 cents on this one.

To start off I do own the Festool system Saw, rails, vac, sander and router. Though the router has not even been out of the container, Love the Saw and sander.

I have looked at Dino's table to complete the system- More portable and less expensive (not as many features though) from the MFT -festool offers. Looking for something to replace my 2 sawhorses.

When I bought my saw and guide I didn't know about Dino's system not sure if it was even available. But this cost thing Dino mentions has me scratchen my head a bit. I believe a festool, saw and guide is about $375.
The Ez smart guide is $180 plus a good circ saw is going to cost about $130 ish (amazon porter cable). So that system is $310. And Im not going to get into the debate about the saws. or the containers, But the cost difference is about $65, not chump change but not major dollars either (and Festool often has sales). OOPS was just fact checking the Ez smart is normally $200 on sale for $180. There goes another $20 (diffence now about $50), sorry dont know what shipping cost would do to those numbers.

I have not seen the Ez guide in action and before you offer Dino. Yes send my a set up (I have an old Dewalt circ saw around here somewhere or I could mount it to my festool saw now that would make a great picture) I would love to compare them I have plywood and malemine laying around, plus a digital camera. Of course I have no time, so It may not happen to fast. Gee Bob if you want this to be a fair comparison maybe I need you to send me a whole new set-up while Im at it :D . Oh if any manufactures of sliding table saws or Heck I'll even compare bandsaws to these if anyone wants to send me one. I need a jig saw to. Lets make it easy just send me your tools. :D

One other feature of the festool saw that has not been mentioned is the built in spliter.

Dino, I will say your post dont come off as friendly and informative, more agressive and competative.

Another difference I have seen is size of company, Dino's appears to be a one man shop, Festool is a large company. You decide which you prefer.

Without seeing the Ez system in operation My uneducated comparisons trying to state facts let you decide whats good or bad. :
1) EZ takes away some depth of cut. But not sure how Depth of cut on Festool compares to circ saw you buy for Ez system.
2) Festool saw comes with nice container, Ez will depend on what you buy.
3) Festool has plunge saw - Not sure what the cost would be for that on a circ saw
4) Festool has spliter on saw - again not sure what the cost is for that on a circ saw.
5) EZ saw may be available locally depending on where you live, all festool comes from warehouse.
6) Dino, Bob
7) Festool works with thier router and jig saw, but you gotta buy thier stuff. Looks like EZ has added a router option now.
8) Ez gives anti chip guide when every you use the saw, Festools anti chip guide only works with the rail (its attached to the rail not the saw).
9) Ez guide needs some assembly - attaching smart base to saw.
10) Ez appears to be about $50 cheaper (YMMV depending on saw)

Ok, I need to get to bed. Gotta get up in 4hrs. I hope these ramblings make some sense. Dino you coming to Michigan anytime soon to demo it, would love to see you demonstrate your product and meet you.

Dino Makropoulos

08-12-2004, 12:17 AM

Dino Makropoulos

08-12-2004, 12:35 AM

http://eurekazone.com/images/gallery/straightlinerip.html

And you get A jointer for free (100").

http://eurekazone.com/products/smartconnector.html
Not 1, not 2, but 3 self aligning connectors.
Sweet dreams.
YCF Dino

Dino Makropoulos

08-12-2004, 1:26 AM

[QUOTE=Dave Hammelef]Wow, I
I have looked at Dino's table to complete the system- More portable and less expensive (not as many features though) from the MFT -festool offers. Looking for something to replace my 2 sawhorses.
and competative.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-That's a good start.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another difference I have seen is size of company, Dino's appears to be a one man shop, Festool is a large company. You decide which you prefer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-How funny that is. One day we support the (small Co) and the other we trash the the even smaller Co.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without seeing the Ez system in operation My uneducated comparisons trying to state facts let you decide whats good or bad.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--With an uneducated comparition how can you state any facts?
Thats bad.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dino, I will say your post dont come off as friendly and informative, more agressive and competative

And yours come better?
But i'm glad that you like the Smart Table.
Regards
YCF Dino

Christian Aufreiter

08-12-2004, 7:19 AM

PS: re: your questions...You can make beveled cuts without cutting the edge, you don't need a wrench for the clamps (only to use the connectors to join guide sections, and believe me they are strongggg), you can remove the saw if you need to (I haven't found it necessary myself). I miss anything?

Paul

Paul, can the EZ guide make cuts at any angle between 45° and 90° without cutting the edge or does this only work at 45° and 90°?

Regards,

Christian

Christian Aufreiter

08-12-2004, 7:42 AM

I think I will . If you allow me to videotape.
Yes some people may have problems with the base if they don't read and follow the directions. And I know of many problems with your system that people complain about. So What?
And about the saw blade. If I can get chip free cuts with a $10.00 blade Imagine how good it will be with a $15.00 blade.
You know what? I don't even have to come to Austria. I have many Costumers in EU that they will be glad to. Let me know and I will arange the details.
So, What was your answer? Its not about the rails?
Regards
Dino

Dino, I don't know what your comment "So, What was your answer? Its not about the rails?" should mean.
Both systems, Festool and Eureka, have their advantages and disadvantages. It certainly depends on your personal needs which one you prefer. So I simply can't accept comments like "the Eureka system is far better and cheaper than anything else".
BTW, I'm not in favor of the idea that a stranger visits me at home and makes a video tape while we try the different guide rails and saws.
We have discussed this here and on other forums serveral times and at this point I'm really tired of further wrangling.

Regards,

Christian

Bill Grumbine

08-12-2004, 7:57 AM

Dino, as the saying goes, the key to getting out of a hole is to first stop digging. People are offering opinions here on what they like and why. No one has denigrated your system, but you are coming on very strong in a negative way. That is not going to help your business, and it is going to do a lot of harm to the perception people have of you.

When we had our picnic a man who owns your system asked if he could bring it and demonstrate it. I told him that was fine, and to the best of my knowledge, he had a number of people watch and ask about it during the time he was here. But, you are destroying a lot of the good will that things like that produce. Who wants to buy from a person who is acrimonious at the drop of a hat, and without good reason? My first thought would be, what if I have a problem? How is this guy going to respond?

People are going to have their opinions and their preferences, and you are not going to change that by coming on strong and trying to browbeat them into agreeing with you. All you will do is drive potential customers away. Remember, there are a whole bunch more people reading this than participating in it. Most of them are probably like me. I have never seen your system, even though it was on display in my own yard. I was too busy to stop for most of the demos that day, so I can only go on what I know, and what I know right now does not motivate me to find out more, much less buy.

Bill

Dave Hammelef

08-12-2004, 8:33 AM

[QUOTE=Dave Hammelef]Another difference I have seen is size of company, Dino's appears to be a one man shop, Festool is a large company. You decide which you prefer.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------(DINO'S REPLY) How funny that is. One day we support the (small Co) and the other we trash the the even smaller Co.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regards
YCF Dino

Just to let everyone know how I feel about the size of the company, I would much rather deal with a small company, and a shop of one is great. (eg. Bought my table saw from a small woodshop in the area the owner was my salesman, could have saved a few $100 if I bought from amazon but would rather buy from the owner). If I get along with the owner I know how I will always be treated. When dealing with a larger company you know the first person you talk to is powerless, to do anything, and it will take time to get to someone who can really help.

Best regards
Dave Hammelef

Paul Berendsohn

08-12-2004, 8:37 AM

Whewwwww...

Look at everything that happened after I decided to go home...
I didn't miss you Christian, I just like getting a rise out of you ;)

For what it's worth, I've spoken to Dino a number of times with questions I've had with the various of his products that I now own, and sincerely you couldn't ask for a nicer, more helpful and informative fella. We both also belong to another forum and the depth of his knowledge is truly remarkable.

Obviously as the inventor of a new product he gets fervent about it, and with some justification. It is in my opinion, one that is brilliant in the way it has addressed the shortcomings of any other system I've used (and that does include Brand F). But I've spent my adult life in an industry where arguments of this type are routine and so I may be thicker skinned than others. For those who are deciding which system to invest in I'd be more than happy to answer any questions I'm able to here or via PM but don't let the flying fur here hide the facts from you. I'm not familiar with Festool's guarantee but I am familiar with Eurekazone's. Don't like it? Send it back, period...

Does Eurekazone make a great product? Absolutely. Does Festool? Sure they do. I put my money down, not once but a couple times on Dino's products, so of course I made up my own mind after reviewing the facts and I've never regretted my decisions for a second. For myself I like a lively debate, as long as it remains civil, but as I said that's me and I'd never want others to feel uncomfortable with it. If I can contribute to the discussion I'll be happy to, whether here or privately.

OK... ding dingggggg...next round ;)

Paul

Dave Hammelef

08-12-2004, 8:42 AM

http://eurekazone.com/images/products/sgs1/sgs1componentslarge.jpg

wow Dave.
Very close, but you left out 14 other componets.
EZSmart. 50" guide $ 59.00
PC CS $130.00
Saw Blade Diablo $ 14 ,00
---------------------$203.00 vs $375.00
And if you allready have a circular saw is only $73.00 vs$375.00
Good Dreams.
YCF Dino

Sorry if I messed up the pricing. just checked out the website again and the lowest option I found on the 50" guide rails was SGS-2NC for$125.98. Lets assume the saw comes with a blade. So your at $255.98 vs $375. You may offer a cheaper set up for a rail and smart base but I couldn't find it.

Dave Hammelef

Dave Hammelef

08-12-2004, 8:52 AM

Whewwwww...
For what it's worth, I've spoken to Dino a number of times with questions I've had with the various of his products that I now own, and sincerely you couldn't ask for a nicer, more helpful and informative fella. .....

Does Eurekazone make a great product? Absolutely. Does Festool? Sure they do. I put my money down, not once but a couple times on Dino's products, so of course I made up my own mind after reviewing the facts and I've never regretted my decisions for a second. .....
Paul
Hi Paul,
Glad to here you have a good relation with Dino, It appears mine has not started so well. I agree I think both products are great and make lots of cuts a lot safer for more people. If I had known about Dino's product when I bought my stuff a few years ago I might have bought it. I personally dont think there is a whole lot of differences. But I have not actually seen an Ez in operation. But I dont see that much of a difference. Rail to keep the saw going straight, something on the cutting edge to hold the wood down so it doesn't splinter.

Dave