Tenon Saw Technique - some help requested

[Doug Shannon]

So after using Japanese saws with some success, I felt I should learn to work in the English indigenous style. Following advice here and elsewhere I bought the Veritas dovetail and a Lie Nielsen crosscut carcass saw, and I can only describe them as a revelation. Fantastic quality of cut, easy tracking, everything an English saw should be.

So buoyed up by that I invested in a Lie Nielsen 12" rip tenon saw, and frankly, I'm not feeling the love. Hard to start, snatchy and shuddery in the cut in both English oak and American black walnut, and hard to track the knife line. The saw is dead straight and sharp, and I'm questioning my technique.

I admit I'm not used to low TPI saws, and I'm wondering if I'm applying too much downward pressure subconciously. I'm trying to hold the saw as gently as possible but I feel like i have to use a lot of forward pressure to push the saw through the cut.

It may be that I'm being a bit ambitious trying to learn using walnut, but our local oak is easy to work so I'm surprised by that.

So any pointers and tips on techniques much appreciated.

[Casey Gooding]

Practice makes perfect. The more you use it, the more used to it you will become.

[Martin Shupe]

For a long, long time, I used to start my saws with a pull, to make a notch.

Mike Wenzloff showed me the error of my ways.

You must, must, push the saw to start a smooth cut.

Not sure if you are making this mistake, but I did for a long time.

[Doug Shannon]

I have indeed been pulling the saw to start the kerf. I'll give that a try, I'm assuming that you use the lightest possible pressure or the saw just skips across the end grain?

[Richard Dooling]

So what is the problem starting on the pull stroke? Does it cant the fibers away from the direction of the cut stroke and make it that much harder to get the saw going in the right direction?

I've also been starting on the pull stroke and have also had trouble getting that first smooth push stroke.

.

[Richard Magbanua]

I'll be following this thread since I'm relatively new to sawing tenons by hand too.
I have heard that new saws may need a "breaking-in" period. Also, have you tried tilting your piece away from you in the vice instead of holding it straight up and down?
I got a LN 10ppi rip carcass saw a few months ago. I did learn to hold it lightly to start the cut (Chris Schwarz says to hold it like a bird in the hand) and let the saw do the work. I'm pretty good at starting cuts now. Besides starting the cut I found scribbling wax on the saw plate makes it a bit easier to finish up.

Try taking pictures of your technique or even post a video so we can see how you're doing it. I wish more experienced woodworkers would post videos of their techniques. That would be a big help.

[lowell holmes]

Make a conscious effort to lift the saw leaving very little downward pressure when starting the cut. Sometimes I imagine I'm sawing air and gently let the saw settle into the cut. I will hold my forefinger and thumbnail on the side of the cut to start it. I always start with a forward stoke. I have both the rip and crosscut saws, but as often as not, I will crosscut with the ripsaw.

Try starting on the pull stroke and lift the saw as you start the forward stroke. It will come to you .

[Doug Shannon]

Make a conscious effort to lift the saw leaving very little downward pressure when starting the cut. Sometimes I imagine I'm sawing air and gently let the saw settle into the cut. I will hold my forefinger and thumbnail on the side of the cut to start it. I always start with a forward stoke. I have both the rip and crosscut saws, but as often as not, I will crosscut with the ripsaw.

Try starting on the pull stroke and lift the saw as you start the forward stroke. It will come to you .

Hi Lowell, thanks for your comments. So are you suggesting that you use the weight of the saw on the initial pull, and lighten off on the push strokes? Also, what's your opinion on having the saw cutting flat on the workpiece versus angling the workpiece and therefore doing an angled cut?

I find sawing flat to the piece to work just fine with the dovetail and crosscut saw, but not with the tenon. I think one of the issues I'm suffering with is how easily the Veritas dovetail saw rips compared to the LN tenon.

[Danny Thompson]

In the Spring 2008 issue of Woodworking, Chris Schwarz published an article about backsaw technique. 10 rules and 3 tips. In the article, he says that it is a mistake to start on the pull stroke because it creates a V that crosses the cut line.

Here is a link to an early version of the article; it contains 9 of the rules:

http://blog.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/How+To+Saw.aspx

The full article includes more commentary and helpful pix. Digital download of the issue:
http://www.fwmagazines.com/product/959/woodworking-magazine

CD of all the 2008 content:
http://www.woodworkersbookshop.com/product/1363/38

[lowell holmes]

I'm not at my bench, but the LN saw can be hard to start the cut. It is so sharp,that when you start forward with the stroke it grabs the wood fiber and when it does that, lighten up on the saw pressure, continuing the cut.
I agree with Richard Maganua's comment about a saw being broken in. After the new sharpness dulls a bit, the saw will be easier to start.

As Danny Thompson said, Chris Schwarz's article is outstanding. I go back and read it occaisionally.

[David Keller NC]

"I find sawing flat to the piece to work just fine with the dovetail and crosscut saw, but not with the tenon. I think one of the issues I'm suffering with is how easily the Veritas dovetail saw rips compared to the LN tenon."

Doug - You should be aware that all rip-filings are not created equal. This is a bit nuanced, but for softwood cutting, one generally has no fleam, and a near zero degree rake - perhaps 5 degrees, and a lot of set, perhaps 1/2 of the plate width.

That sort of saw will be a nightmare to cut hard woods with - it will jump, shake, and shudder on the push stroke.

For hard wood, one generally has a good bit of fleam, perhaps 5 degrees or so, the rake is much more relaxed, perhaps as much as 20 degrees, and the set is much smaller. What this does is make the saw much more stable in the cut, but at the cost of greatly slowing it down.

The lie-nielsen filing on the tenon saw is a compromise between the hard and soft wood set/fleam/rake, and is quite aggressive (i.e., it leans more toward the softer wood filing). When it's fresh, it will indeed be jumpy. After sawing a bit in a harder wood, the saw dulls slightly and settles down.

Regarding technique, I found that one does not want to bear down on the saw at all, nor really push it into the cut. Instead, all of the downward pressure should be the saw's weight, unassisted by yours. The push stroke should be only in the direction of cut, with no downwards component.

For starting the saw, one should, in my opinion, pinch the work between the thumb and forefinger of your left hand, set the sawplate against the fleshy part of your left hand's thumb and forefinger, and give the saw a couple of gentle pushes across the workpiece. After 2 to 3 of these, a slight kerf will be established all the way across, at which point you can start sawing with the full length of the saw.

If you'd rather start at one corner and work against two lines, you will probably need to produce a starter kerf with a bench chisel inserted in the knife line, bevel out, and give it a light tap. That will give you a "V" notch to start the saw in. This technique, by the way, is covered in Chris Schwarz' Woodworking Magazine article "How to Saw", which in turn was derived from Charles Hayward's book "Carpentry for Beginners" and "Woodwork Joints".

The way I found out about Lie-Nielsen's filing versus others was comparing my L-N 12" tenon saw against a 12" Drabble and Sanderson antique from the early 20th century. The filing on the D&S saw is much more towards the hard wood set-up, and is considerably smoother than the L-N, but it's also far slower. It's a real drag to use this saw to cut tenons out of EWP (Eastern White Pine) and Poplar - the Lie-Nielsen cuts these two woods like a dream. Both have the same number of teeth per inch.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Here's a technique allowing one to consistently lighten the saw's downward pressure. When you push the saw forward, apply your hand pressure to the lower part of the handle. It's more vertical than the upper part, so more force goes forward, and less force goes down.

[Don McConnell]

Martin Shupe wrote (in part):

"You must, must, push the saw to start a smooth cut."
"Not sure if you are making this mistake, but I did for a long time."

In the face of such a dogmatic statement, I'd be interested in a cogent and convincing explanation why one "must, must" initially push the saw to start a cut.

Holtzapffel, as early as 1846, was advocating just the opposite, and it is my impression that starting a saw cut by drawing it backward a short stroke, or two, is a long-standing trade practice. That, alone, doesn't mean one "must" do this, either, but does indicate that a lot of people (who earned their livings using these tools) have been "making this mistake" for a long time.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[lowell holmes]

I think one of the issues I'm suffering with is how easily the Veritas dovetail saw rips compared to the LN tenon.[/QUOTE]

I would attribute that to some more sneaky stuff by Robin Lee.:)

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Been absent from the forums for family reasons. But my ears were burning...

One can start a saw pulling or pushing. However, if one applies much downward pressure when drawing the saw back to obstensibly establish a kerf, it can cause issues when the forward stroke is begun.

If you look at the floor of the beginning kerf under this circumstance, you will often see ripples (like washboards) that correspond to the toothing on the saw. Heck, one can often hear them being created. Chances are the tooth tips will be sitting in them when the forward stroke is begun. One is then attempting to push the saw through more wood depth than can often be smoothly accomplished.

Often the sawyer then pushes harder, which, due to the hang of the saw, can apply even more downward force than can/should be used. Sawing shouldn't be work when using a sharp saw. Nor should it frustrate the sawyer.

This issue of the ripples applies more to (1) sharp, aggressively-filed saws and/or, (2) coarser toothings and/or, (3) when sawing through the thickness of a board (such as for DTs) . Once the PPI rises, it is less an issue. Same with a more relaxed rake on a coarser saw, or one that is duller than it ought to be.

A smooth stroke forward while holding some of the weight of the saw off the wood works wonderfully. I use this same approach when demonstrating sawing DTs using a 26" 5 ppi rip hand saw on a 3/4" thick board.

Take care, Mike
...back to a massive email pile...

[Doug Shannon]

Thanks all for your comments and help. This evening I went out to the shop and practiced some more, in both oak and walnut. One thing that I am noticing is that the initial smoothness seems to be quite dependent on whether I'm cutting along the annular rings or across them, with the initial strokes being much smoother when cutting across. This would appear to tie in very much to what David said about the set and file on the LN.

Even after a small amount of use I'm actually finding the saw much smoother, I assume as the initial sharpness is dulling. I think in the long term the challenge I'll face is learning to track the saw to the line accurately, but there are many tips and much information in this thread so far.

[Don McConnell]

Mike et al,

You wrote, in part:

"One can start a saw pulling or pushing. However, if one applies much downward pressure when drawing the saw back to obstensibly establish a kerf, it can cause issues when the forward stroke is begun."

In addition to the subtly dismissive tone of the term "ostensibly establish a kerf," it seems to me that you are further stacking the deck by assuming the application of "much downward pressure" when drawing the saw back. Well, of course, it doesn't work very well when one uses poor technique.

A very light touch, sometimes including lifting part of the weight of the saw, will usually limit the production of ripples in the kerf when drawing the saw back. If the saw seems to want to "catch" on the first forward stroke, another light backward stroke will usually smooth things out. And the small flat/kerf which is established allows more teeth to come into contact with the material, providing for a smooth and controlled first forward stroke.

Actually, differing materials, situations and saws will occasionally call for differing approaches, so I think people should be prepared to experiment to find what works best for them in any given situation. Which is why I feel it does them a disservice to pejoratively dismiss one possible approach - especially one which has been used by generations of woodworkers.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR

[Mike K Wenzloff]

Don, I wasn't being dismissive of anyone or anything. Nor categorizing any technique, anyone's advice nor any person in a pejorative manner.

If I wish to be dismissive or bad mannered, there isn't any subtlety involved.

Mike

[Joe Hardesty]

Which is why I feel it does them a disservice to pejoratively dismiss one possible approach - especially one which has been used by generations of woodworkers.


I am all for learning from traditional methods and I grew up being taught to always start on a pull stroke, but that doesn't mean it's correct in all situations, and especially not in the context of this thread which is tenon saws.

Using current backsaws, specifically LN saws as mentioned by the OP, it is my experience that starting on a push stroke will provide superior results in virtually any wood and any cutting configuration.

Nothing pejorative about it; it's called progress.

[Richard Dooling]

So would it make sense to put a little wear on the first inch of blade - sort of a poor man's progressive pitch?

[David Keller NC]

"So would it make sense to put a little wear on the first inch of blade - sort of a poor man's progressive pitch?"

Richard, I wouldn't do that if I were you. If you're unafraid to modify your saw (some of us, including me, aren't going to touch a L-N until it needs overall sharpening - they go for too much money on e-bay. Antiques are cheaper to experiment with), I'd suggest modifying the rake on the teeth on the last couple of inches of the saw.

That's a lot easier than changing the pitch, which, in my opinion would need a complete re-toothing job to get the smaller/larger teeth to line up properly.

You can change the rake pretty easily, though - you just need a slim taper 6" file (or a double slim 5" - they'll all work, just some more optimally than others). One just puts pressure on the front of the tooth being filed with the file held at a more relaxed rake angle - you will see a small bevel form at the top of the teeth being filed. You can carry this bevel all the way down the tooth if you choose, but it's not necessary. Just a small more relaxed bevel about 1/4th of the way down the tooth will make the saw easier to start.

[Glen Evans]

This is probably an obvious point--but one problem I've had in cutting tenons is having the stock too high in the vise. Even a couple inches higher seems to throw me off. (I guess its also possible that my bench is too high--but I'm not going to go down that road!)

Glen

[Mark Roderick]

You know, I've always started on the pull stroke because it seemed easier, but last night I cut some dovetails starting with the push stroke based on this thread, and it actually works better! It's counter-intuitive to me, but who cares?

Once again, this is a terrific forum.

[Joe Close]

Mark, I sent you a PM.

[Adam Cherubini]

I find it helpful to keep in mind that a saw is a not a knife. The cut happens pushing the saw forward, not forcing it down.

My advice is to try holding the saw with a muc much lighter grip. In fact, I would try just pinching the handle between your thumb and fore fingers. I think what this will teach you is that your saw needs very little help from you (which is good news).

As far as drawing the saw back or forth, I couldn't tell you what I do. I just don't know. What Mike says about the teeth denting the wood is certainly true. I've done that. My feeling is either way works and neither matters. The problem you are having is probably coming from holding the saw too tightly and not using a light touch. It's probably a little like learned to drive a car with a manual clutch. If you think too much about it, it's herky jerky. Keep working, use a light touch and you'll be Mario Andretti in no time.

Adam

[Robert Trotter]

I think this thread might be approaching the end of discussion but I thought I might ask a question about the tpi for tennon saws and the relation to speed and starting. Sorry for the deviation.

Is there a real difference in feel, starting etc between say 10tpi and 11 tpi? or even 12 tpi?

There seem to be tennon saws at 10tpi and then saws seem to jump to dovetail saws at 15 tpi or higher. Is there a reason for the big jump? Is there a difference in working with the wood? is a tpi somewhere in between 10 and 15 worth looking at?

I am asking as I need a tennon saw and a dovetail saw and I would be looking at building medium (hall tables, kid's desks, bedside tables) and smaller stuff (lamps, drawers and boxes etc. small side tables) I won't be making any larger closets or dinning tables etc.

Also, it was mentioned about hardwood and softwood saws. Any softwood work I think I'd stick with my Japanese saws. So I'd be looking at the western saws for hardwoods. Is there a difference in saw teeth set up say for sawing maple, ash, walnut, black walnut or tropicals like urin (similar hardness and desity to jarah I think)? I have some recycled Urin decking that I have been using and it is hard on my Japanese saws. But in the future I would like to try using some of the other woods mentioned.

Anyway, any comment would be helpful to me and hopefully to others.

Rob

[David Keller NC]

"There seem to be tennon saws at 10tpi and then saws seem to jump to dovetail saws at 15 tpi or higher. Is there a reason for the big jump? Is there a difference in working with the wood? is a tpi somewhere in between 10 and 15 worth looking at?

Rob - Some of this has to do with the needs of a man making a living entirely with hand tools in days gone by. If you look at old furniture (and/or read Adam's column in Pop Woodworking), you find that the jobs were done at breakneck speed, and were done very roughly when the work wouldn't show. If you think about it, no one will see either the cheeks or the edge cheeks of a tenon, so it doesn't matter whether it's rough - just that you can cut them as fast as possible. And I can personally verify that a 10 tpi saw, all other things being equal, will cut the same distance with quite a few less strokes than a 15 tpi saw.

Dovetails, though, are not the same as tenons in that the end of the cut is exposed when the dovetails are assembled. Two other factors are the thickness of the stock and the precision required for an off-the-saw fit. If you put a really coarse saw to a thin piece of wood (such as would be used for a drawer side), there's a danger of splitting it. The rough teeth also vibrate the board, which makes the saw hard to control. In this instance, a finer toothed saw is easier to use. Also, you must be pretty close to dead-on with a set of 4 dovetails, because errors are multiplied across the large cut surface area, and even one surface that's mis-tracked with the saw will require paring.

The old guys didn't like paring - it was slow. While my experience isn't that extensive in this regard, every drawer dovetail joint I've ever seen when taken apart on a piece of furniture from the age of handwork shows no evidence of having been pared.

[Alan DuBoff]

In addition to the subtly dismissive tone of the term "ostensibly establish a kerf," it seems to me that you are further stacking the deck by assuming the application of "much downward pressure" when drawing the saw back. Well, of course, it doesn't work very well when one uses poor technique.
Don,

Poor technique is a perfect reference, since pulling a saw that was filed to cut on the push is just that. The saw was not designed or intended to pull, so why use poor technique in the first place?

I completely agree with what Mike said, and consider it poor technique to use a saw to create an artificial kerf. In considering that a rip tooth (this applied to crosscut teeth as well) is akin to a chisel, the intention was to cut with the sharp edge. But by drawing the saw backwards, is using the tooth in the opposite direction and the angle makes it clunky at best. In a way, it is the epitome of poor technique. Relying on one's tools for such results speaks for itself.

Actually, differing materials, situations and saws will occasionally call for differing approaches, so I think people should be prepared to experiment to find what works best for them in any given situation. Which is why I feel it does them a disservice to pejoratively dismiss one possible approach - especially one which has been used by generations of woodworkers.
Well, that is certainly something to consider, but it still doesn't make using poor technique as being acceptable. Doing so is a poor use of the tool at best.

This is akin to sawing away from the line with the intention of chiseling cleanly to the line, and I would bet that people that use their saws to pull an artificial kerf are more likely to do that as well. This is another example of poor technique. Use your saw to cut to the line you intend, that is what they were intended to do.

OTOH, considering that most people are afraid to sharpen their own handsaw, it's no surprise there are so many that are willing to use them for a task that they were not intended for, creating an artificial kerf.