Excaliber sliding table vs. Festool saw and rails? [Archive]

Charles McKinley

08-09-2004, 10:44 PM

Hi All,

I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. If you did a fair amount of sheet goods work would you like a 62" sliding table on the table saw (1990 PM 66) better or the Festool plunge saw and rails? The 12" + cross cuts that I try to do and keep square are a real pain. The smart miter is great for anything under a foot wide but there are times that I need to make a 16" cut and there is no good way for me to do it on the table saw. I need to tweak my panel saw it is about 3/32 out on a 48" cross cut and it bugs me. What I have been doing is using a home made guide with my circular saw.

This won't be a gloat any time soon. I'm just looking for insight and opinions.

Thanks,

Kelly C. Hanna

08-09-2004, 11:10 PM

I want the portable panel saw (I forget who makes it), but given your choice, I'd probably go for the sliding table. I figure the 3 or 5 hp saw is better than the festool circ saw, but having never used one I really don't know if it is or not...just an uneducated guess.

Steven Wilson

08-09-2004, 11:23 PM

If you never move your PM66 or bump into it then one of the attachable sliding tables might be ok. If you really want to solve the problem get a sliding table saw or European combination machine. I'll bet the Festool guide rails and circular saw will be more accurate than an Excalibur on the PM.

Mike Palmer

08-10-2004, 12:31 AM

Charles, I have the Excalibur on my PM66. It is very handy and stays accurate. It does take some time initially to set up, but once its set it stays there. I usually only use mine with the fence positioned to the front. Moving it back and forth is not a big deal but I don't usually fool with it. My only complaint with going to the sliding table is that I lost use of ripping to the left side of the blade.

Bob Reda

08-10-2004, 6:36 AM

I don't have a slider, but I have tried cutting sheet goods with my jet 3 hp 52"cabinet saw. There is no comparision to the Festool saw and guide rail. Pushing a 4x8 sheet through a saw versus placing a rail on the cut line and letting 'er rip! I have the Festool plunge saw and guide rail and thats the only way I will ever cut sheet goods again.:)

Keith Outten

08-10-2004, 6:54 AM

Charles,

I own the 62" Excaliber sliding table and I cannot imagine ever using a table saw without a slider ever again. If I was shopping for a slider right now I would purchase the Exactor as it is stainless steel and made from heavier plate than mine. You will not believe how much safer your table saw will be. There are cuts that can't be made any other way accurately since you can clanp pieces to the table that don't have a straight edge to ride against the fence, this is how I trim the legs of my rocking animals. I even use the slider to cut pen blanks with a piece of scrap plywood clamped to the fence and a stop block.

I own a panel saw as well but they are generally not considered to be a tool for accurate work, more for rough prep than final dimentioning.

Paul B. Cresti

08-10-2004, 7:24 AM

As American's we are all trained/taught that the cabinet saw is the end all. I have to admit I was lusting after a Unisaw for many years before i finally got one. Standard cabinet saws, as we all know, are accurate for ripping but sheet goods or large crosscuts do not fair well at all. Ripping can even be dangerous as most of us have all had some type of kick back.

I have recently made the switch over to a sliding table saw. It is made by Minimax and for most of us we knew it as a sliding panel saw. It is the "funny" looking saw in a "T" shaped configuration. It has a long sliding carriage that one can attached a support table w/ fence (used for large pieces & sheet goods) or one can attached a miter guage asembly for smaller pieces or general crosscutting/mitering for narrow stock. It also has the typical rip fence we are all use to, but this is no ordinary rip fence. It is cast iron with heavy aluminum, is microadjustable and dead on accurate and can be slid back and forth (like the Unifence) and be put in a high or low position.

I have no idea why the European saws/combo machines have not caught on as well over here. They excell at both ripping and sheetgoods/croscutting and in the short time I have had mine are far more accurate and productive the my Unisaw ever was. Now do not get me wrong I loved my Unisaw and was very proud to have one ( was very sad to see it go) but this MM sliding table saw is a whole nother ball of wax. Once set up, sheetgoods/crosscutting is a breeze. Yes I can rip but, riping on the bandsaw is much safer. It also seems most Europeans know this too and do most rippng on the bandsaw also. I am completely redifining my method of working with this new saw. I can now do things I thought I could never do more accurately and doing things much safer too. Putting a sliding table on an American cabinet saw does not put the carriage right next to the blade, there is always a 9-12" distant of no mans land. The European saws have the sliding carriage go right up to the left slide of the blade.

So my vote for you would of course be a European sliding table saw or combo machine. If you do not want to make the jump my next vote woud be for the sliding table for your table saw. It will give much more return dollar for dollar than the Festool would.

Mark J Bachler

08-10-2004, 8:18 AM

I have to agree with Paul. After working many years for a German owned store fixture manufacturer, and having used Martin & Altendorf sliding carriage saws, I knew when I built my own shop one of these would be the heart of it all. It really all depends on what you do in your shop and what your goals are whether or not it will justify the cost. A Martin or an Altendorf were out of the question price wise, but I was spoiled and knew I wouldn't be happy with a add on carriage. It was a toss up between Mini Max or Felder. I ended up with a Mini Max SW315 with the 8' slider. I have more than made up the difference in price between a saw with an add on carriage and this saw. The speed and accuracy that you can blank out cabinet parts and straight line ripping solid wood with out 1st having to join it really saves me allot of time, and in a business, time IS money

Bill Grumbine

08-10-2004, 8:22 AM

Hi Chuck

I have both the Festool and the Excaliber sliding table. I like both of them, and the both have their strengths. However, if I had to choose only one, I think it would be the Festool. Now maybe people reading this will think I am nuts, but the Festool has more flexibility than the sliding table when it comes to sheet goods for the following reasons.

I can handle sheet goods all by myself with the Festool. If I am pushing plywood through the TS, often SWMBO is there to catch, and horsing a full sized sheet through requires moving stuff around in the shop to provide clearance. With the Festool, I can set up a couple of sawhorses, slap some 2" thick styrofoam on them and now I have a cutting table where the parts do not fall or twist.

The Festool can handle those odd sizes and shapes. The day after I convinced SWMBO to let me buy the Festool (using the previous reason) I got a job to build an irregularly shaped trapezoid TV platform. I could have done it without the Festool, but it turned hours into minutes since I could position the guide anywhere and get a glue joint quality cut without extra operations. This cut would have been impossible with my sliding table.

The Festool can go anywhere. You remember how our property is laid out. Working in the house and running back and forth to the shop to make cuts gets real old real fast. We recently remodelled the bathroom, and I don't mean paint and curtains. There was nothing left but the hole in the floor where the toilet used to be. I cut and installed the new subfloor on the dining room table using my Festool and the aformentioned styrofoam panels for a backer board. Not only did the dust extraction take care of most of the dust, I did not have to run up and down the hill to cut pieces on the TS. Again, since it is a very old stone house, after the first few cuts, they were all irregular, a task easily handled by the Festool which would have required extensive set up on the TS, if it could have done them at all. I was even cutting short pieces 2" long or wide with the guide.

I would need a different blade if I was going to do a lot of solid wood with the Festool, especially in the ripping dept, but I would have to say that its advantages outweigh its disadvantages in this case. If you are doing lots and lots of cutting of regular sizes and shapes, then the slider might be a better option, but like I say, if I could only have one...

Of course, Paul makes a good point, and I have one of those on the way, but it costs a little bit more than the Festool too. ;)

By the way, I have that info that you PMed me about, but it is temporarily lost on my desk. I just wanted to let you know I did not forget.

Bill

Jim Becker

08-10-2004, 9:17 AM

I agree with Paul, Mark and Bill...each of these methods has their strengths. For me, the Festool plunge saw and guide would be the first purchase since it's the most versatile. (and Uncle Bob, if you are watching, it will be in the near future...) Bill really spelled that out quite clearly. From an initial cost standpoint, the Excalibur slider is more approachable than the Euro-slider by most folks and will work quite nicely if you use a lot of sheet goods. I don't with the work I do now (other than shop cabinets and my previous kitchen renovation), but if my life were to change and I needed to support myself though cabinet work, I'd probably try to find a way to go the way Mark, Paul and soon, Bill, have gone with the Euro-sliders. They are just plain better designed from a slider standpoint and you can push through the cut with just your little finger's effort with those things. Now, if I couldn't find a way to swing that big nut, the Excalibur would be right on the short list assuming I could fit it in my shop. (Another consideration for these things...)

Tyler Howell

08-10-2004, 11:38 AM

[QUOTE=Bill Grumbine]Hi Chuck
With the Festool, I can set up a couple of sawhorses, slap some 2" thick styrofoam on them and now I have a cutting table where the parts do not fall or twist.

Bill,
Don't tell Bob, but he's going to get a piece of me too:D !
Interested in your work table here. Does it make a difference (bead board, closed cell, paper backed, or foil overlay??? My aging back can't handle hiking the work surface and the material too. Are a couple saw horses enough or is more support needed??

Thanks

TJH;)

Bill Grumbine

08-10-2004, 11:58 AM

Hi Tyler

I used the 2" thick pink stuff with no paper, no foil, nothing. There is a tongue and groove, as I had to buy 2' x 8' sections, but that actually worked out better than one big 4' x 8' section. I store them in the barn, and the pieces can act like a giant sail walking them over to the shop! The tongue and groove stick together and make the whole thing one piece very easily, but then come apart just as easily for storage.

I use two sawhorses spaced so that there is about 18" of overhang on either end, and I have found this combination to be sufficient for 3/4" material. The styrofoam is quite rigid, and by setting the blade so that it just nicks the foam, it lasts a long time. At the least I would stay away from the foil backed stuff. In addition to being hard on your blade, just think of the sound it might make! :eek:

In fact, if you have a table big enough, you don't even need the sawhorses. Like I said, I used the dining room table. Now, our dining room table looks like it has been through a war (we are not the first owners), and it will be replaced someday by one I build, but the Festool did not mark it in any way using the foam to back the boards.

Bill

Steve Jenkins

08-10-2004, 1:42 PM

For anyone coming to the BBQ here we can play with both the festool saw and rail and with my Altendorf slider. Steve

Tom LaRussa

08-10-2004, 2:06 PM

Hi All,

I just wanted to stir the pot a bit. If you did a fair amount of sheet goods work would you like a 62" sliding table on the table saw (1990 PM 66) better or the Festool plunge saw and rails?
Hi Chuck,

I think the very best solution for doing lots of sheet goods is a panel saw. Unfortunately, they are quite expensive, which is why I purchased Rockler's do-it-yourself panel saw plan. Turns out I just don't have the space to justify building the thing -- especially given that I really don't do that much with sheet goods. So, the plan is up for grabs. I'd be happy to email it to you if you'd like.

Here's a link to Rockler's page describing the thing:

http://www.rockler.com/ecom7/product_details.cfm?&offerings_id=5311

HTH,

Augie

Steve Jenkins

08-10-2004, 2:48 PM

Hi Chuck,

I think the very best solution for doing lots of sheet goods is a panel saw. Unfortunately, they are quite expensive, which is why I purchased Rockler's do-it-yourself panel saw plan. Turns out I just don't have the space to justify building the thing -- especially given that I really don't do that much with sheet goods. So, the plan is up for grabs. I'd be happy to email it to you if you'd like.

HTH,

Augie

I think that for quality of cut, versatility, and space restrictions the festool system would be head and shoulders above the vertical panel saw.
Bill has about the best method for supporting the panel being cut. It's lightweight and easily stored when not in use.
Imagine trying to lay out the top of a corner desk on the vertical saw by clamping supports where needed to get the cut in exactly the right place vs, working on the flat and laying theguide rail right on your layout lines.
Steve

Tyler Howell

08-10-2004, 4:21 PM

Thanks Bill,

Tuning in to SMC is better than going to school! Something new and exciting everyday. Just happen to have all the goods out in the garage. ;)

Augustus and All,

Is a V panel saw for finish work or are you just trying to get in the ball park? Never had the pleasure but I give that bad boy an eyeball everytime I stop at my local lumber yard.;)

Greg Mann

08-10-2004, 6:40 PM

Being an unabashed card-carrying Festoolie I can't add much to what Bill and Steve have written. Mark and Paul are certainly correct in pointing out the qualities of the European sliders. I would love to have one but nothing I do would ever justify that. It is worth noting that both the sliders and the Festool system are Eurostyle solutions and represent popular approaches across the pond. The Festool system excels in its portability and cost in comparison to a slider without sacrificing quality of work. I will admit to ignorance concerning the cost of an Excaliber system, certainly cheaper than a slider even if you add in a Unisaw but how would it compare to a Festool plunge saw with guide for cost? But you still need at least 64 sq.ft. of open floor space compared to 32 for a couple saw horses and the Festool and it will always need to be the same floor space. Charles' original question is obscured by bringing in the big sliders. I'd still love to have one but I'll cover my needs with the Festool. For once, we can even say that Festool may be the cheap solution.:)

Greg

Paul B. Cresti

08-10-2004, 7:54 PM

I guess I should have noted that the Festool sytem is probably the best if you are looking for a portable way to cut panels. Even though I have never used one it would most likely be great for the jobsite.
One reason I would assume for the not quite popular status of european sliders is the price because as far as perfomance/acurracy it does not take a second seat to anything except maybe a CNC router. It can cut at angle and do ripping and crosscuting. You can use the sliding carriage to both rip and crosscut. True this was a hard nut to swallow but if it is your profession it does make sense. The prices of these saws have come down especially with companies like Rojek, Minimax ( a bit more $) and of course Felder (a bit more $$). The thing that still puzzles me though is the combo machines. You get many standard machines similiar to what most well equiped shops have for not much more dollars and better accuracy and crosscutting ability. Like I said before it is an American thing (inch vs cm kind of thing).
Tyler you asked about the vertical panel saws that you see at the home centers. They really are not much more than sizing machines. I would venture to say some are better than others. There are very good and accurate vertical panel saws (like Holzher) but they are much more expensive than even a slider.
Who knows many of you may switch like I have ( albeit for me it was for my business) to the european style machines after you have tried them.

Jim Becker

08-10-2004, 8:39 PM

I believe that Charles indicated he already has a panel saw, but he can't get the accuracy he desires from it.

Charles McKinley

08-10-2004, 8:56 PM

Hi All,

Looks like this question did a good job of generating discussion, Thank You.

Mark, Paul,Bill and Steve yes a real slider is far and a way the best solution. First I have to become cash flow positive. If I can hang on to that point a combo machine will definately be in the cards as I will need a bigger planer. I made a huge mistake not buying Steves combo unit. :( I ended up buying an antique jointer from the guy that did buy it.

Augie I have a panel saw kit from Saw Trax. It works well for cutting stuff down but it comes out just out of square and is a real pain to get larger piece back to square. I'm going to replace the wood fence with aluminum channel that I can get closer to square.

Cost about $750 for 62" Excaliber from old tool Crib catalog; Festool saw kit ATF 55+ systainer+ 55" guide +chip deflector +Blade +systainer $375, 108" guide $160, clamps $25 ~$560 prices from old McFeely's catalog. Depending on the compatability with my Fein Vac I may need a matching Extractor too, ;) add $375.

With the amount of onsite work I do for friends I think the Festool would be the better purchase than putting more money into the PM and replacing the PM with a multi-function machine in the future.

Anyone need to add a tool to their festool order to get the better discount????(just kidding, see above cash flow comment)

Thank you all for your input. More input invited.

Tyler Howell

08-10-2004, 9:10 PM

Not even in the same hemisphere as the above mentioned, but it will be my small dog till the big one comes along.:cool:
I took a 20 year old collapsible saw guide and bolted it to a piece of hard board with 1/4 -20 flatheads and wing nuts. Waxed the hardboard and used the Csaw to cut it to width. The edge of the hardboard lines right up with your mark and go to town. The hardboard also so helps prevent scratching and chip out on veneer plywood. It was true and the cleanest plywood cut I've ever got with a Csaw.
Similar models have been advertised using a piece of true hardwood stock as your guide.
Enjoy;)

JayStPeter

08-10-2004, 10:59 PM

Hi All,

Looks Depending on the compatability with my Fein Vac I may need a matching Extractor too, ;) add $375.

To hook up a Fein, buy a Festool hose. It plugs right in and is around 10% the cost of the full on extractor. Works great.

Jay

jeremy holloman

08-11-2004, 11:21 PM

Just thought I'd add the repeatability factor. On the sliding saw, you can accurately repeat cuts just by placing a stop block against the fence. With the Festool, you have to replace it on each sheet, and chances are it won't be 100% accurate. Just my two cents. Of course if you aren't cutting many sheets at a time or are looking for portability, then the Festool looks pretty good.

Steve Clardy

08-12-2004, 12:08 PM

Beings you have a choice, and if you have the room, my choice would be the sliding table saw. But that depends if most of your work is in the shop, or on the job. Most all mine is in the shop.

Chris Padilla

08-12-2004, 2:37 PM

Yeah, no way a sliding TS would fit in my 2-car garage but I have seen them in action (a Felder) and no doubt they are sweet and have their place. I use my Clamp-It to cross cut sheet good and my TS, with extender tables, to rip sheet goods to rough size. If I need a finish rip size (rare for me) 8' long on a big sheet, I find a straight 2x4 and go for it.

Festool and Eurekazone all have other solutions to the sliding TS and work great as well.

Tyler, I use a piece of 2" thick foam insulation board and ususally do cuts on my garage floor or driveway. Mine happens to have foil on one side but no biggie. My 1 piece recently broke into two but it is still useful. 2 years of cuts take their toll...might need a new one soon.

Paul Berendsohn

08-12-2004, 4:21 PM

Greg Mann

08-12-2004, 5:00 PM

I knew my ears were burning ;)

Paul Cresti : "I guess I should have noted that the Festool sytem is probably the best if you are looking for a portable way to cut panels. Even though I have never used one''

Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and put on my cape outfit with the big "E" on the front...(If I may be so bold after yesterday's debacle thread)

Interestingly enough, I stumbled over the Smartguide when I searched Ebay for a panel saw. Now owning it I'd agree that a good guide system/saw combo is the only way to go. But I have used and own several other guide systems and especially if, as was mentioned earlier, cash flow is an issue, do yourself a favor and look at the Eurekazone Smartguide.

Apologies for horning on on the Festoolian meeting but I couldn't resist ;)

Regards,
Paul
Paul,

Your not horning in anymore than bringing sliders into the discussion should be considered horning in. The original question concerned two approaches to accomplishing a certain task. Offering other solutions, in this case sliders and now Eurekazone, should be valid, IMO.

The other thread got out of hand and I want to go on record as feeling partly responsible because of the omission of a single word in a post I made. This changed the meaning of my statement dramatically and appeared as though I was throwing down the gauntlet in front of Dino. I apologize to everyone, especially Dino, for not reviewing my post more carefully and, as a result, I stirred emotions that may have otherwise been kept in check.

Greg

Chris DeHut

08-12-2004, 5:02 PM

The Festool system is very good - I was very impressed with it when cutting various sheet goods down to size. The cut finish was amazing for a circular saw. When using sliding tables on the table saw - I get great cuts there too.

Sliding tables have limitations as to miter cuts - the greater the angle, the less cross cut ability you have (depending on the model). Festool can cut any angle of any length.

Sliding table is easy to set for square or angle cutting (provided it has a good accurate scale). To setup a straight edge for angle cuts takes a little more setup. Getting the tool guide square to the stock can also take extra setup time for each cut you make. Unlike the sliding table, once set, you can make many cuts- all square. If your panel saw is off-square, consider how much work and effort you will have to do to make each individual saw setup square using a straight edge guide system

The Festool approach is portable and flexible. The sliding table approach almost requires your table saw be parked in one spot- unless you like making adjustments.

I personally like both systems. The sliding table I have been using does not have enough capactity to cross cut a full sheet, but if it did, I might like it a little more. If I had to do a lot of work with sheet goods, I think the decision for me would come down to these two points....

1) Sliding table - accurate and fast setup for square cuts (or any angle) - repetitive cuts are easy with a stop.

2) Straight edge setup - you will need to accurately set the straight edge guide for each and every cut - making certain you align the straight edge square to the panel.

For what it's worth...

Chris

JayStPeter

08-12-2004, 5:17 PM

Personally, I'd love to have a slider. But, the Festool was my compromise. Expensive as a circular saw, but cheap compared to a format TS or panelsaw (not to mention it also fits in my shop).

I'm in progress of making a portable cutting station. I'm making a torsion box out of scrap ply and putting some folding table legs on from a dumpster dive. Only cost will be the skin ($9 for 1/4" luan sheet). I also use a 2" foam board. One nice thing about the Festool, the plunger keeps the depth right so I don't cut through the foam. Don't think I've even nicked 1/16" into it yet (maybe 40-50 cuts).

Excuse me while I step into a phone booth and put on my cape outfit with the big "E" on the front...(If I may be so bold after yesterday's debacle thread)
.../cut/...
Apologies for horning on on the Festoolian meeting but I couldn't resist ;)

Regards,
Paul

It's alright. Even us Festool owners think the Eurekazone stuff looks good. I really can see why someone would not want to pay for the Festool ... really. Seems like we need to get the reps into boxing ring at the next picnic event though (or maybe Christian v. Dino) ;) :D .

Jay

Paul Berendsohn

08-12-2004, 5:33 PM

OK... I know I'm pushing my luck on this one, but have you looked at the Eurekazone SmartTable? I haven't assembled mine yet, but it's purdy nice and cheap...

Tim Sproul

08-12-2004, 5:58 PM

JayStPeter

08-12-2004, 6:06 PM

OK... I know I'm pushing my luck on this one, but have you looked at the Eurekazone SmartTable? I haven't assembled mine yet, but it's purdy nice and cheap...

I have, it was my original plan. The SmartTable looks pretty cool. The dumpster dive for legs was for that. It still may happen. I just needed a flat place to glue up some counter tops the other day and knocked together a framework that will become the torsion box with scrap ply & MDF. It's around 3.5'x7'x3", so I figure for $9, I'll give it a shot see if that winds up too big/heavy (it needs a skin to stiffen it up). I just plan on using it in the shop and knocking it down when not in use. But if it takes too much space or gets too heavy, the SmartTable parts will get ordered. Eventually I plan on building a rolling multi-purpose cart (panel cutting, TS infeed-outfeed aid, assembly/clamping table...). I have a 3'x4' area set aside for it to live. The knockdown one will go to the garage for pre-sizing before lugging to the basement. That reminds me ... McFeelys ...

Jay

Paul Berendsohn

08-12-2004, 6:15 PM

Paul,

I've got the Eurekazone system....and like the Smart Guide. It is worlds better than the shopmade guide I used to use. I haven't put the table together but I visited Manny Hernandez a few weeks ago. He'd just gotten the Smart Table and was quite impressed. Though Manny uses a Festool with it.....
He...uses...Eurekazone...WITH... Festool??? No good can come of this, it's like some biblical warning of the end days...cats and dogs lying together (to quote Ghostbusters)... I'm just waiting for the locusts and frogs to fall from the sky.

;)

Christian Aufreiter

08-13-2004, 3:37 AM

It's alright. Even us Festool owners think the Eurekazone stuff looks good. I really can see why someone would not want to pay for the Festool ... really. Seems like we need to get the reps into boxing ring at the next picnic event though (or maybe Christian v. Dino) ;) :D .

Jay

Hi Jay,

I'd like to make sure that I'm not a Festool rep, nor do I work for any other company (I'm a student). And I don't think that boxing is the way to go but I know that was just a joke.
As I already stated, the Eureka system seems (I haven't used it) to be a decent guide rail system for circular saws and routers. And I don't deny that both systems - Festool and Eureka have certain advantages so preference might be a matter of use and personal choice.
However, I can't understand how somebody can honestly say that the Eureka is far better and cheaper. It might be better at some applications (as the Festool is at other applications) but it's only cheaper if you constantly want to ignore that the cost for the Festool inculdes the price for an excellent circular saw with more or less unique features. Or are there any comparable circular saws which are way cheaper?

Regards,

Christian

Paul Berendsohn

08-13-2004, 8:16 AM

Christian Aufreiter

08-13-2004, 9:18 AM

Morning Christian...(and all)

I feel like Ronald Reagan when he said "now there you go again" ;)

I took a quick skim back through these posts and I didn't see anyone making the statement that Eurekazone was far better and cheaper in this thread, but the reality is that it does offer significant advantages and it is significantly cheaper when comparing apples to apples. I won't reopen the whole bruhaha yet again but I think denying the price differences while saying the SmartGuide is a "decent" tool is dangerous ground.

For the record as well, I am not an employee of Eurekazone, nor do I receive any compensation from them for my support. But I do consider myself a friend of Dino's as well as owning several of his products and being a huge fan of them.

BTW Christian, to my parent's eternal dismay, my German is very poor from disuse so since you brought up the subject of affiliations... am I mistaken or is the term "mitarbeiter" used only in the context of someone who is employed by the same firm? Tschuss ;) and to the rest of you... regards!

Paul

Paul,

I'm not interested in discussing this old subject again.

It's quite difficult to explain how the word "Mitarbeiter" is used. There are many words with similar but not identical meanings.
<He's a "Mitarbeiter" of company XY> means he works there but doesn't indicate his position.
<He's one of my "Mitarbeiters"> means he is one of my employees.
It's a rather general term which doesn't distinguish between a worker and an employee (someone who works in an office, for example). The main problem is that "Angestellter" (those guys who work in the office) and "Arbeitnehmer" (all people are employed and work as "Arbeiter" and Angestellte") are translated with the term "employee" while those words have different meanings in German.
I guess I haven't really answered your question but I can't think of any better explanation right now.

Regards,

Christian

Paul Berendsohn

08-13-2004, 9:28 AM

Viel Dank für Ihre Antwort. Tag...

Paul

Ken Salisbury

08-13-2004, 10:22 AM

We have beaten the Festool vs Eurekazone horse to death. No need to cover that ground again -- Thanks

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

Dino Makropoulos

08-13-2004, 2:33 PM

We have beaten the Festool vs Eurekazone horse to death. No need to cover that ground again -- Thanks

http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/misc/moderator.gif

Hi Ken. Today we have the opening ceremony.
I think it will be live on CNBC. at 8.00 PM
for more info about
the olymbic games go to www.athens2004.com
Don't miss it. And don't worry about the F vs E.
The olymbic truce starts today.And who knows,
It may last Forever.
Enjoy the games guys.
YCF Dino

Ed Falis

08-14-2004, 10:54 AM

Interested in your work table here. Does it make a difference (bead board, closed cell, paper backed, or foil overlay??? My aging back can't handle hiking the work surface and the material too. Are a couple saw horses enough or is more support needed??

Thanks

TJH;)

Tyler,

Take a look at the EurekaZone table top kit. I've been using the foam approach since I got my Festool plunge saw, but the table top kit takes less room and is a lot more flexible.

- Ed

Ed Falis

08-14-2004, 10:59 AM

To hook up a Fein, buy a Festool hose. It plugs right in and is around 10% the cost of the full on extractor. Works great.

Jay

This works for a lot of vacs - did the same thing for our Wap.

- Ed

JayStPeter

08-14-2004, 11:48 AM

This works for a lot of vacs - did the same thing for our Wap.

- Ed

Yep, fits my Craftsman also.

JayStPeter

08-14-2004, 12:23 PM

Hi Jay,

I'd like to make sure that I'm not a Festool rep, nor do I work for any other company (I'm a student). And I don't think that boxing is the way to go but I know that was just a joke.

Christian,
I realize you're not a rep. I was indeed just joking. Trying to lighten the mood a little after the last thread got a little heated. I meant no offense to anyone, I'm just a smarta** (occasionally minus the "smart" :cool: ). I kinda misfired (hit submit instead of preview), I was thinking a main event of the reps and undercards with the most adamant festoolies vs. the eureakzoners. Somehow you came to mind in the first category :D . After some other threads, I'm thinking a Craftsman user vs. basher undercard may also be appropriate.
I realize boxing might not be the correct venue, maybe those giant sumo suits. We lightened a pretty explosive situation at work by renting some of those once. It's pretty entertaining.

Jay

Disclaimer: Don't take anything in this posting the least bit seriously. All opinions expressed in this posting are of the poster and not representative of the companies mentioned. Any opinion expressed in this posting that has any basis outside of humor is purely unintentional.

Jack Young

08-14-2004, 1:48 PM

Christian Aufreiter

08-14-2004, 3:36 PM

Christian,
I realize you're not a rep. I was indeed just joking. Trying to lighten the mood a little after the last thread got a little heated. I meant no offense to anyone, I'm just a smarta** (occasionally minus the "smart" :cool: ). I kinda misfired (hit submit instead of preview), I was thinking a main event of the reps and undercards with the most adamant festoolies vs. the eureakzoners. Somehow you came to mind in the first category :D . After some other threads, I'm thinking a Craftsman user vs. basher undercard may also be appropriate.
I realize boxing might not be the correct venue, maybe those giant sumo suits. We lightened a pretty explosive situation at work by renting some of those once. It's pretty entertaining.

Jay

Disclaimer: Don't take anything in this posting the least bit seriously. All opinions expressed in this posting are of the poster and not representative of the companies mentioned. Any opinion expressed in this posting that has any basis outside of humor is purely unintentional.

Hi Jay,

thanks for your response. Of course, I didn't take offence. I appreciate your attention to bring fun into our discussion but as humor can depend on national or cultural differences I wanted to make sure that there were no misunderstandings.

Regards,

Christian

JayStPeter

08-14-2004, 3:45 PM

Christian Aufreiter

08-14-2004, 3:53 PM

All-

I have written a message to Aaron, the Administrator, suggesting a band within the SMC system for discussion, not of brandname, but of philosophy, which seems to always lurk underneath or within many of these threads. On the one hand, there the traditional notion of the table saw as the core, the ultimate workhorse, of a respectable workshop. On the other, there is an emerging approach, manifested presently by Festool and Eurekazone, which makes the center of the shop quite something else, in which the table saw becomes a fringe item moreso than the center. The philosophies are quite different systemically, even though they both go to the same end.

I wonder if the issue of philosophical approach can be treated as such, have airing in its own place, perhaps as an eye-opener for new and evolving woodworkers who join, or look in on, SMC and help them select the more appropriate (to them) orientation from the outset, if not also giving long-timers something to chew on. Such a venue might help separate the unfortunate infusion of system issues in discussions or threads that deal only with the performance of a particular kind of machine or tool.

I made an anecdotal observation over in the concurrent ROS thread (page 3) which really makes the point clear. I should have made it here, and apologize to all for not making that distinction better. Anyway, in a venue such as I suggest, perhaps a discussion of philosophical issues can avoid competitiveness around "brand" and, rather, frame the advantages, disadvantages, and practical application, of the ideas themselves.

Jack

Hi Jack,

excellent idea.
Due to a lack of space and money (good table saws seem to be more expensive in Europe than in the US) I don't own a table saw. But I can assure you that it's definitely on my list. I think that a good guided circular saw can handle my applications which are difficult to deal with unless you have a large saw with a sliding table. But even if you own such a table saw you might appreciate the circular saw and its guide rails if you have to trim a door for example. And while a large table saw can handle full sheets I can't without a helper. Quality table saws in Austria, Germany and other European countries usually have sliding tables - or they are at least available as accessories. But many woodworkers still own and use their guided circular saws for a variety of applications.
On the other hand a table saw is way better at cutting small stuff and at repeated cuts. A guide rail which you have to place for every single cut can never offer the accuracy of a good fence which you set once and use for cutting the same piece ten times.
Conclusion:
Both kind of saws have their importance in a shop.

Regards,

Christian

Jim Becker

08-14-2004, 4:12 PM

Christian Aufreiter

08-14-2004, 5:04 PM

I don't think it's necessary to have a separate place to discuss "philosophyl" about woodworking, such as table saw vs other methods. Just start a new thread here on such a topic!

Early on, the members of SMC considered having more granular subjects, but decided to keep things simpler so that more folks would be exposed to a variety of different woodworking topics. (Turning and Scrolling are examples of two subjects that potentially would have separate areas in that debate) The way that SMC runs now is one of it's great attractions over some other forums out there and one of the reasons it's perhaps the strongest "community" of woodworkers. This "general woodworking" forum brings folks together, rather than breaking them apart.

I stated that I liked Jack's idea but agree on Jim's suggestion. A new thread might be sufficient if we all concentrate on a general discussion and don't focus on certain brands/products. If it turns out to be a lively and interesting debate it could be kept as a kind of FAQ in order to make sure that it's easily accessible for new members.

Regards,

Christian

Dino Makropoulos

08-14-2004, 5:22 PM

Jack,

I think your discussion from the ROS thread should be split into a new thread. It would be a real interesting thread if brand loyalties were kept at bay. Maybe we should give it a week :D .

Jay
Hi Jay. I think we're all in the same boat now. And i will start by saying for one more time that I'm a big Festool fan too. (remember the olymbic truce C&G and please don't make any replys until you read the whole post)

We know the benefits of the table saw
1. Repeatability 2.dados and 3.narrow stock cuts 4.more depth capacity. etc etc.
We know the benefits of a guide system.
1.portable 2.affordable 3.easy 4.safe 5. more accurate (on panels)6. tapered cuts 7.require less space etc.etc.
And we know that unless you have a comercial shop you don't have the room or the work to justify both a good guide system and a good slider TS.
I use to have a 25.000 sq. feet woodworking factory A 10.000 sq. feet factory and a contracting busines and i know the importance of the sliders /panel saws/ rip saws /and any saw that is out there.
And the importance of the straight edge or guide system.
In my opinium the center of the small woodworking shop it will be a guide system that is capable to combine all the benefits of the table saw.1.2.3. &4
Then we have the best of both ways and we can see the dead wood concept alive. I believe in few years down the road we will see the chance.
Ycf Dino

Charles McKinley

08-14-2004, 5:24 PM

Hi All,

Sorry I didn't mean to stir the pot this much and things have gone far from where it started.

Philosophy???? ooooooo :p

Jack the shifting of the corner stone of the workshop has been much more towards a band saw than something like a guided circular saw. (Definatelt a thread of its own)

I think it is time to close this thread and move on.

Thanks for all of the replies

Paul B. Cresti

08-14-2004, 5:59 PM

I do not quite understand what has happened to this thread. It started out as a simple question of a portable guide system vs a sliding attachment for a table saw.
I added the European sliders as another option and noted how differently the Europeans have their shops set up. Why did brand A vs B come into to it???? Why did owners / reps of these companies get involved on pushing thier products??
This was a discussion on a method of doing work. One option a guide sytem is a relatively low cost solution that can be used in both the shop and jobsite. The attachment to an "American" style cabinet saw offers great repeatability and allows one to handle both sheetgoods and to handle crosscutting ability. The next step is the "european" style sliding table saws that can everything easily, accurately, repeatble and safer but at a price that most woodworkers may not want to cough up. I mentioned one brand of guide rail system in my thread as an option (even though I never used it) only because I never new any others existed and that was part of the original question.

I think the moderators (Ken) should be thanked for not ending this thread and not banning the companies that got involved.

Frank Pellow

08-17-2004, 9:28 PM

All-

On the one hand, there the traditional notion of the table saw as the core, the ultimate workhorse, of a respectable workshop. On the other, there is an emerging approach, manifested presently by Festool and Eurekazone, which makes the center of the shop quite something else, in which the table saw becomes a fringe item moreso than the center. The philosophies are quite different systemically, even though they both go to the same end.

Jack

Jack, what you say above really has me thinking. My table saw is a 35 year old Craftsman and my current plan is to replace it with a good cabinet saw once I get my new workshop up and running and to make that the centre of my shop. Maybe I will purchase a less expensive (but still good) table saw and make smart tables and guide rails the heart of the workshop. I have about 6 months to decide. :confused:

Paul B. Cresti

08-17-2004, 10:51 PM

Frank,
I believe you would be making a mistake making any portable guide rail system the "center" of your shop. I think we as woodworkers (especially American) need to rethink the table saw as the center of the shop. I think one should view/use all machines in conjunction with one another. This assumes that one has all of the necessary/standard machines. Ripping can be done on both the bandsaw and table saw, crosscutting on the table saw(with sled), miter saw or RAS. Jointing and planing on their own machines. Each machine having it's own function can help a shop be more efficient as you move from station to station. Now there are of course many other machines that can duplicate some of these basic functions and there are mant more that perform other more "specialty" type functions (ie. shaper, molder, lathe....). True if one only had a table saw it could be used to accomplish many functions but at the cost of efficency. I will not even throw in the sliding table saw as it opens up another world of possibilities.
The rail/guide systems are good (I will have to take other people's word for it) for what they are intended for: a portable, lower cost way to cut sheetgoods. Can it be used to rip solid wood stock? I am sure it could but I am sure not about to reset some jig every time I make a simple rip. By the way if you really want a simple way to rip items quickly, super accurately and safer: first joint one edge, rip it to rough dimension on the bandsaw, then plane it to its final dimension. Lets not forget the rail systems are "jigs", they can never replace real machines.

Greg Mann

08-17-2004, 11:08 PM

The thing that still puzzles me though is the combo machines. You get many standard machines similiar to what most well equiped shops have for not much more dollars and better accuracy and crosscutting ability.
Paul,

I think you should get some kind of special recognition for contributing the most thoughtful, and least inflammatory, posts to this thread. JMHO;)

I did cite this quote from one of your posts because I did not quite understand it no matter how many times I read it. I am probably just not tilting it right to the light. Do you mean you don't understand why we have not embraced combos because they offer so much or do you not understand their concept since standalones can do the same for similar overall costs? Please expand.

Greg

Paul B. Cresti

08-18-2004, 12:32 AM

Greg,
It is amazing how when you type something it makes perfect sense to you, but when you read it a couple of days later it gets a little muddy. What I ment was I do not understand why more Americans have not embraced the European combo machines. Some of these machines include all the basic functions needed comporable to a fully equipped hobbiest shop. They are not much more expensive than separates and for the most part offer better capacity and functionality for the money. (ie: most come with a 12" jointer and planer, how many people have a 12" jointer?)

Frank Pellow

08-18-2004, 6:59 AM

Frank,
I believe you would be making a mistake making any portable guide rail system the "center" of your shop.

Paul, you missed part of what I said. I said that I am thinking about making "smart tables and guide rails" the centre of my shop. Smart tables, such as the Festool MFT, do support repetative cuts, cross cutting, dados, etc.

Paul Berendsohn

08-18-2004, 8:29 AM

Frank,
I believe you would be making a mistake making any portable guide rail system the "center" of your shop. <SNIP>

The rail/guide systems are good (I will have to take other people's word for it) <SNIP>

Lets not forget the rail systems are "jigs", they can never replace real machines.
Hmm sorry I tried to mark your quote where I edited for brevity, hopefully I haven't affected your intent...

With all due respect Paul, I think you're woefully underestimating how much a good guide system can do, and how much easier it can be for many tasks. I love my Unisaw, but I can tell you I use it less and less the more familiar I get with the SmartGuide and I strongly suspect that will increase once I assemble my SmartTable. Don't knock it till you've tried it ;)

Best Wishes,

Paul

Paul B. Cresti

08-18-2004, 9:05 AM

Paul (by the way great name),
Now that I have a sliding table saw (MM) nothing can even come close to its flexibility, repeatability, safety and accuracy. I can crosscut and rip solid & panel stock at any angle and bevel (or square) I want and I do not hjave to set up or break anything down. So that is where I am coming from. Lets face it we all like tools here and these guide rail systems are just the next "wave" of really cool tools. They seem to be very good from what others are saying but MY opinion still stands it will never replace stationary machinery in the shop. I believe it is ment to augment your existing equipment not replace. "Shop" is also a relative term in the sense my shop vs a hobbiests is much different. I am now in business for myself and I need accuracy & quality first and ease of use second. Every piece or project I complete is a part of me and I will not take any chances. The hobbiest (and no one take offense to this) has the luxury of time which I do not. My opinion still stands as the guide rail systems are still just a jig, albeit a nice one.

Frank Pellow

08-18-2004, 11:33 AM

... Lets face it we all like tools here and these guide rail systems are just the next "wave" of really cool tools. They seem to be very good from what others are saying but MY opinion still stands it will never replace stationary machinery in the shop. I believe it is ment to augment your existing equipment not replace. ... My opinion still stands as the guide rail systems are still just a jig, albeit a nice one.

Paul, I think again that you are missing the point that the guide rails are not necessarily only portable. They can be fixed to a pemanent or semi-permanent "smart" table of some sort.

Ed Falis

08-18-2004, 12:08 PM

... What I ment was I do not understand why more Americans have not embraced the European combo machines. ...

I think a good part of the resistance is that you have to buy it all at once. Another is that I wouldn't be able to justify, as a hobbiest, a 12" standalone jointer, so the large cost of entry on these things is amplified by a sense of self-indulgence.

I love them, from what I can see, but I don't see them in my shop anytime soon.

- Ed

Jack Young

08-18-2004, 3:55 PM

Folks-

The last several posts on this thread are discussing exactly what I was driving at in my earlier post here, and in my misplaced one on the ROS thread, that is to say, the question of "where is the center of a workshop" and "theory or idea" behind the different configurations. I suppose "philosophy," as an operative word, might be a put-off to some.

Would those of you who have posted since the originator of the thread tried to close it off have any objection to moving the discussion over to a new thread more aptly named? I think it will get more play that way. And the renewal here indicates to me that it's by no means a dead issue and that there are those who are currently wrestling with it.

Any suggestions as to a short name for such a thread?

Cheers, Jack

Dino Makropoulos

08-18-2004, 9:16 PM

Folks-

Any suggestions as to a short name for such a thread?

Cheers, Jack

"My Table saw mentality." :cool:
YCF
Dino

Dennis Peacock

08-19-2004, 1:15 AM

For anyone coming to the BBQ here we can play with both the festool saw and rail and with my Altendorf slider. Steve

Woo-Hoo!!!!! Guess what I'll be doing?!!!!! :eek: :D

David Rose

08-19-2004, 1:51 AM

Yeah, and since Dino's device doesn't work with my "lefty" saw, guess who's going to be watching every move you make. I'll bring a depth mic and optical comparator. You better cut well, son! :D (Kidding on the comparator... :( )

...and just when I don't need another tool...

David

Woo-Hoo!!!!! Guess what I'll be doing?!!!!! :eek: :D

Scott Coffelt

08-19-2004, 10:40 AM

If anyone going to Hatfield's for the central states has one and can bring, I would love to take a test drive. Both systems that is....

Steve Jenkins

08-19-2004, 11:40 AM

If anyone going to Hatfield's for the central states has one and can bring, I would love to take a test drive. Both systems that is....

Scott, if you can come to Dallas in Oct.
I'll have the Festool saw, rails,jigsaw, router, and 150/3 sander, as well as a vac. If someone has one of Dino's units we can use both, as well as my sliding table saw. It's not a sliding table added to a cabinet saw but a european slider with a 10' stroke on the table. Also remind me and I have a Lenox trimaster carbide blade on my bandsaw so you can see pretty effortless resawing. and whatever else we can come up with to do. Dave A. you want to bring your FMT? I'll get some wood ready before-hand.
Steve

Dino Makropoulos

08-19-2004, 8:44 PM

If anyone going to Hatfield's for the central states has one and can bring, I would love to take a test drive. Both systems that is....

Hi Scott.
Why not take a test drive with the guide systems VS the sliding table saw?
Instead trying to debate the E VS F we can go one step further and debate the methods.
Actually I like to see the E+F VS the expensive sliding table saw./ jointer/ straight line rip saw/ miter saw /and one RAS.
(The eurekazone challenge doesn't exclude any tool or any method.)
YCF
Dino

Paul B. Cresti

08-20-2004, 10:45 AM

I have tried not to get involved in debates here as this board is for all to "talk" about woodworking methods, exchange ideas and talk about tools. What it is not intended for is advertising of ones product. I am sure there are many other people and companies that post here but never have I read such constant "stealth" advertising as you have, Dino. I do not care what you "claim" your system can or can not do, it is still just a jig and because of your antics on this site I will never purchase anything from you. I take great pride in my work and in professional ethics, that is one of the reasons for me to starting out on my own.