Prefinished nail or click woodflooring, anyone?

[travis howe]

Looking to replace some carpet w/ wood flooring...seems like the click / snap type stuff prefinished is around $4.50 sq foot. Was wondering if any of you all had experience w/ wood floors? Would it be cheaper to buy or rent a flooring staple gun for a job that could be like 1200ish sq feet or is it just a cheap in the long run to buy the snap / click type of stuff?

Anyone have a great source for flooring?

Thanks!d

[Paul Steiner]

Search this forum there are several threads on this. I have put in several thousand square feet and here is my advice. You want true 3/4 hardwood. It will last the longest and it is the only flooring increase the value of your house. The snap stuff scratches and dents to easy and it is not repairable. You can repair 3/4 hardwood, its tricky but possible.
I would buy a gun for any job. They have become very inexpensive, I bought a chinese made gun or stapler on ebay for $130 and its still going strong. You can get a grizzly or a harbor frieght for under $150 and they usually guarantee them. Tooliday.com had a bostich cleat nailer for $105 a few months ago. The reason I don't recommend renting one is because you will want to take your time to do things right and worrying about only having the gun for the weekend won't allow that. Lastly my area a gun rents for $25 a day, so buying one will probably be worth it.
I recommend lumber liquadators or a local supplier for hardwood floors. I recently purchased #2 grade butterscotch oak for my kids bedrooms ($2.25) and #1 grade for the master bedroom ($2.89) both were identical to the Bruce I got at lowes and put in the hallway 2 years ago ($3.89). What you will save will easily allow you to buy a nailer, compressor, mitersaw, and several other tools.
The snap stuff is garbage go with hardwood!

[travis howe]

Thanks Paul,

When you say true 3/4" are you saying solid 3/4" flooring or is 3/4" engineered okay as well? I thought I had heard that the engineered flooring would be more stable?

If one does true full 3/4" flooring then I presume one needs underlayment as well?

Great advise!
Thanks!

[Dan Friedrichs]

He means 3/4" solid. I think most people group the engineered stuff in with the laminate, although it does usually have a decent thickness of solid wood on it.

I second buying a gun. The very small cost difference between buying a gun and renting one is not even close to being worth the peace-of-mind you'll get by not worrying about it needing to be returned. If you buy a used one on eBay or something, you should be able to sell it for nearly the same price when you're done with it. The Bostitch MIII is the standard, but any of the cheap ones will probably work just as well.

Lumber Liquidators has cheap stuff, but there are lots of customer service horror stories with them. I recently bought ~1000 sqft from them, and had an absolutely awful experience. I'll spare you the whole story, but if you're buying from LL, I'd highly suggest following these rules:
1) Buy everything you need all at once from one store, and make absolutely sure you won't need any more than what you pick up the first time. There is absolutely no guarantee what they have today will be available ever again no matter what.
2) Make sure your plans allow for a long delay between your order and your order being available for pickup.
3) Don't expect any customer service for any reason whatsoever.
4) Avoid their trim if at all possible - it's sometimes manufactured by a different company than the company that makes the flooring, so the finishes/dimensions/etc are not quite right. The stuff that you'd have to worry about it branded Lumber Liquidators - you'd likely not have any problems if you bought a name-brand (Bruce, Armstrong, etc).

[Don Abele]

Travis, I have to disagree with what everyone previous has said.

Four years ago we completely finished our basement in Massachusetts and I went to Lumber Liquidators for flooring. Based on their excellent customer service, I bought 1300 square feet of their name brand 8mm laminate flooring. It comes with a 25 year warranty. Me and my wife installed in all in a weekend. It was a "snap"!

Paul is correct - after it wears it can not be repaired, but must be replaced. Solid flooring can be refinished. Been there, done that. I'd rather replace it. You can not refinish 1300 square feet in a weekend. I CAN replace the laminate in that time though. Besides, 25 years is a long time for flooring. Solid flooring will need to be refinished MANY times in that time frame.

I was so impressed with it's performance after three years (and I have two 80+ pound dogs and three very active children) that I installed another 1500 square feet in our upstairs.

This stuff is nearly impossible to scratch thanks to the aluminum oxide in the top coat. As for denting, I've hit it with a hammer as hard as I could swing that 22 ounces and no dents! And nothing seems to bother it. My three year old son painted the floor with nail polish. A call to Lumber Liquidators and a solution was at easily hand (again, excellent customer service). Acetone cleaned it right up with no effect to the finish. Try that with a poly finished floor!

After my experiences with it, I'll never install anything else. As for Lumber Liquidators - it's in their name. They are liquidators. The salesman told me that they may not have the same flooring available in the future. He also warned me that they do not manufacturer their own trim/molding. So I bought unfinished stuff and matched it as best I could.

Be well,

Doc

[Kevin McMichael]

I just did some laminate and was really happy with it. I think that it probably did increase the value of the house. I replaced some carpet and tile.

If I were purchasing a house it would increase the value for me because it is highly unlikely that my wife would like what was on the floor and the laminate would be easy to change......I hope that I never have to take up any more ceramic tile as long as I live!

[Dan Friedrichs]

Don - I think you're right about LL being "liquidators". If you're looking for something cheap and are willing to put up with cheap service, you could get a good deal and be perfectly happy. Just be clear that you're shopping at the discount lumber store, not someplace high-end.

I've installed some laminate, as well, and it's OK. I think even a mildly educated eye can quickly spot that it's laminate, not real wood. If you do go this route, make sure to buy something name-brand (not LL brand), and expect to spend about the same as what you'd spend for mid-grade solid wood.

I think all the differences here really come down to perception. For instance, why do people want dovetailed drawers and granite countertops in their high-end kitchens? Arguably, a lock-miter is much quicker (and just as strong, using modern glues), and various man-made surfaces are more appropriate for countertop use. Yet, people want dovetails and granite, so that's where the value is. I think a mid-grade solid 3/4" wood, carefully installed, is going to add much more value to a house than even high-end laminate would.

[Bob Luciano]

Hi my wife picked out some of the 3/4" prefinished solid wood floor. It was one of the arguements I skipped and now I wish I hadn't. The floor dents easy as reported and has a small micro edge that is hard to clean. I can always sand it as a regular floor and refinish it to get the groove out and might even be able to get a stronger finish on it. Having said that I would never buy it on purpose again. If you want added value and something that will be worth having in 25 years go with solid wood and find a good finish. The rest of the house is done in white oak with a waterbase finish that doesn't yellow or release horrible off gases. Everytime I see it I just think damn thats nice

[phil harold]

Don

I think all the differences here really come down to perception. For instance, why do people want dovetailed drawers and granite countertops in their high-end kitchens? Arguably, a lock-miter is much quicker (and just as strong, using modern glues), and various man-made surfaces are more appropriate for countertop use. Yet, people want dovetails and granite, so that's where the value is. I think a mid-grade solid 3/4" wood, carefully installed, is going to add much more value to a house than even high-end laminate would.

Perception of quality is the metaphysics of quality
is plastic water bottle better quality than a canteen?
or visa versa?

[Larry Rasmussen]

My approach was to immerse myself in current ads and some info from the site here as well as go over the materials section of Craig's List daily.

Snap or clic loc vs nails/staples: I put down some clic loc composite squares in the kitchen a couple yrs ago and it was really pretty easy and has not budged. The most common approach is to use a resilant rubber pad under the clic loc floor and install it to float. That is no attachment to the floor whatsoever. It is really stable and none of the spaces on the locked joints have become bigger. So first we looked at clic loc. Ended up with staples. The gun kit with mallet, extra gaskets and case with the staples purchased ended up being just under $200 on Amazon new. I'm thinking it will be a quick sale on Craig's at about $125 when we are done. I found "experts" or at least sales people at Lumber Liquidators that swore nails were the only way to go while in the next store, another LL, staples were strongly recommended. I just put down the first 100 or so square feet of stranded bamboo flooring and it came out really great with the staples. We did not use the clic loc because availability of clic loc in stranded bamboo was very limited, same with solid hardwood in clic loc.

Solid wood vs engineered. If you want wood underfoot these are your choices. Engineered is hardwood laid over softer plywood layers. Even the harder woods will not have the resistance to denting with the softer plywood behind the 1/16" top layer. Depends on what type of area it is, high use and traffic areas may not be a good choice for engineered flooring. Beware the thickness which can start at 1/32 or so up to 3/16" or more. Some are thick enough to refinish, others not.

Pre finish or do your own: I was inclined to go pre finished and a couple of posts here sealed the deal with strong opinions on the quality and value of many pre finishes. Hard to do any patching though and get the right blend, just plan on being careful and don't build in any fudge factor that has you planning on covering scratches, holes, etc.

How wide? Generally one source stated that the 2 1/4" was traditional and had a more formal appearance when finished while as you get to widths over 3 1/2" and especially over 4 1/2" present as more informal and were not as frequently used for well finished flooring until more recently. These "planks" had been more likely to be found in a cabin or more modest setting. Seems like anything goes now but it's easier to find more consistent colored batches of higher quality wood in 2 1/2" strips than 5" planks.

What wood? Go to Lumber Liquidators or most any floor site and you can get a list of hardnesses for different flooring woods. We were going to use less expensive bamboo until every sample in every store we went in failed the fingernail test. The stranded method of manufacturing the bamboo results in a very hard and durable product.

So we paid $4.00 a square foot for some pre finished 3 3/4" flooring that looks great. I have another 6-800 sq feet depending on final planning. We had hoped to use Craig's list and pick up some job over runs at around $2.00 but there is no free lunch in flooring world and after a couple road trips to look at used or contractor leftover flooring we had to totally change our plans. The softer wood may have a lower quality finish or more color variation or higher waste percentage all to meet a particular price point. I was pleased to find a durable product for 4 bucks.

Good luck,
Larry R,
Seattle

[frank shic]

has anyone tried the prefinished bamboo hardwood flooring that costco is selling?

[george wilson]

I'm not a house repair type person,but I have read that Bamboo is soft. The only hard part of bamboo is the outer skin,which is not there. It is a grass.

[Verne Skagerberg]

Hi Travis,

We just went through an extensive search for the right floor to put in an addition - complicated because it has to go over radiant heat. The first leasson learned is that every vendor out there is an expert, but they'll all give you different advice. Second lesson is that they all may be right given the right circumstances.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to do plenty of research and think real hard about your situation and what you want to achieve. Laminate is generally inexpensive and some of it is very good stuff, but some of it isn't worth the shipping cost. Engineered runs the gamut and some of it is exceptionally nice (and pricey) - it has some real advantages over solid hardwood where movement is concerned, hence our choice for installing over in-floor heat. Hardwood is great, but it can also run to both ends of the quality scale just like the stuff on the rack at your lumber store. Each of the three can be great in the right place, but can also be a complete mess that you just want to cover up and forget.

I'd suggest spending a little time at http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/navigating2.htm . I found their site to be very informative about the various floor types, installation choices, and manufacturers - some of whom shouldn't be allowed to sell carboard boxes.

Good luck,
Verne

[Greg Deakins]

from my experience (varied but not substantial) you must choose a high grade laminate or snap floor. Always make sure the sub-floor is solid, and use a foam underlayment. Problems come when you "snap" the pieces together too roughly, (with a mallet) and the edges expand. The inside is like mdf on some, so with enough of a spill, the floor could bubble up.

When it comes to my preference, A properly installed and finished solid wood floor is the way to go. When you see a hundred and fifty year old floor that was installed right the first time, you know it, and it looks good. I replaced about 1200 sq in a historic house in Detroit that the Dodge brothers John and Horace lived in while designing and building the first Dodge, (out in the backyard garage). The flooring was completely trashed, and had in places no sandability left, hence cutting it out and replacing. THe rest was in such bad shape it seemed futile at the time, but the cointractor wanted it to have character. When all was said and done, and the floor recieved a new covering of poly, the mix of the old and new looked sharp. Point is, even after a long life, wood floors retain value well into the future. We have no way of determining what a laminate floor would look like after a century, could be better I suppose.

On a side note, I found a piece of old figured type lacey oak that was mixed in with the rest of the old window frames I removed from that house during the complete renovation. It had a petina on one side from the pipe smoke in the house over the century or so. I decided to turn it into a candle holder, as shown below. The wood would give off an odor of cherry tobacco when I milled it, which I believe to have been passing through the air as the brothers devised thier first automobile to compete with Ford after they separated. The other picture shows a little bit of the old floor I patched, with a little character left in under the custom handrail.

[frank shic]

verne, that's a great web link. thanks for the info!