Recessed Panel Question

[Jeff Ranck]

I've done a search for threads with "recessed panel" in the title and nothing came up, so hopefully this hasn't been asked and answered.

I'm starting a project for my son's upcoming wedding - a panel bed. I have the basic design done and it consists of some rather large recessed panels, with some beading and trim around the inside of the recess. When I do raised panels (or simple flat recessed panels), I leave a little space so the panel can float (I tend to use space balls or something like that).

So here's the question: do I attach the beading and trim to the rail/stile and let the panel float underneath? If I attach to the panel, I'm afraid it will either gap around the recess or if I anchor it to both the recess and the panel, it will lock the panel and not let it float.

I've never done this and can't quite figure out how they should be attached.

[David DeCristoforo]

The "best" way is to mill the bead into the frame and then use "mason's" miters (AKA "jack" miters) at the corners. If you attach a separate moulding, you need to be sure, as you have already deduced, that the panel must not be prevented from moving. That pretty much means that the moulding is glued and/or pinned to the frame only.

[Frank Drew]

Jeff,

Applied moulding is attached to the frame, not the panel; there are multiple possibilities with this kind of embellishment that you couldn't get with stuck moulding; one, bolection moulding, lays partially on the frame face, giving a bolder look.

I used to think that raised panels were the height of paneling, but I've kind of gotten to prefer the look of flat panels with applied moulding since raised panels are just so common; of course, with any panel, your wood selection makes or breaks the project, IMO.

[J.R. Rutter]

If you use an engineered panel, like plywood or veneered MDF, then you can glue right to the panel. That's how many commercial cabinet doors with applied moulding are made. For solid wood - yes attach to the rail/stile or use jack miters.

[David DeCristoforo]

"If you use an engineered panel...you can glue right to the panel"

Good point!

[Jeff Ranck]

If you use an engineered panel, like plywood or veneered MDF, then you can glue right to the panel. That's how many commercial cabinet doors with applied moulding are made. For solid wood - yes attach to the rail/stile or use jack miters.

If I use an engineered panel (veneered ply), what about the stile/rail movement? They will be large (4.5"x2.5"). Do I need to worry about their movement and float the panel because of that?

[Peter Quinn]

I'm thinking not really a problem, particularly if you use vertical grain material for any center stiles or captive rails. If the wood was going to move enough over 4" of width to be a problem it would probably start breaking the joint, which it won't, so no real issue. I'd leave a 1/16 gap between the panel's tongue and the bottom of the panel groove and glue the panels in if MDF or plywood

Another option not mentioned depending on the molding size is to glue a spline into the panel groove, glue the molding to the spline, drop in the panels after assembly, similarly apply molding to the other side of the panel by gluing to the spline. Size the splines so that the molding acts as a stop to hold in the panels. This works best for double sided panels such as passage doors, though I suspect given the thickness of your stock it may be possible to incorporate some form of this idea regardles. It makes assembly of M&T frames quite simple and gives you limitless design options as far as moldings. The molding must be strong enough to carry the weight of the panels in question.

[Jeff Ranck]

Thanks all. I think I may actually pull this off. I'll post pictures when I get everything finished.

[Vince Shriver]

Another option not mentioned depending on the molding size is to glue a spline into the panel groove, glue the molding to the spline, drop in the panels after assembly, similarly apply molding to the other side of the panel by gluing to the spline. Size the splines so that the molding acts as a stop to hold in the panels. This works best for double sided panels such as passage doors, though I suspect given the thickness of your stock it may be possible to incorporate some form of this idea regardles. It makes assembly of M&T frames quite simple and gives you limitless design options as far as moldings. The molding must be strong enough to carry the weight of the panels in question.[/QUOTE]

I'm having a hard time picturing this; would really like to see a diagram.

[Peter Quinn]

I'm having a hard time picturing this; would really like to see a diagram.

I'll try to clarify, though my sketch up skills are not great. First graphic shows a typical frame and panel stile and rail intersection with a square edge detail. The kind of thing you can produce with a dado blade alone, No monster shaper that would be required to make true M&T joins with a cope and stick on big frames.

So you make your frame, glue it up, no panels captured. Second graphic shows splines inserted into the grooves in the frame which also give you a haunch on the tennons. You size the panels to fit between the tops of these splines, you miter and attach your molding to the face of the splines and edges of the rails and stiles, but the molding is WIDER than the projection of the splines, so the molding holds the panel in place when all is finished. Lots of glue surface, very solid connection, no jack miter required!

You must attach molding to both sides, though you are not limited to using the same molding. I have not drawn the molding or panel in place, but does that make more sense?

[Peter Quinn]

In thinking I suppose you could also mill your stock so that the interior edges had a rabbit on each edge that created this tongue as an integral part, and then make a stop cut at the ends and at every intersection that will receive a mortise, but that certainly complicates the joinery a bit.

We have used this technique with the splines for both flat and raised panel doors and frames. In one case there was a set of three pairs of carraige house doors, arch tops, 3" thick mahogany, roughly 50"X9' doors with solid panels the full thickness of the doors. The door frames were sent out without panels to be installed and fitted by the contractor, then returned for completion. It was much easier to install the units given the reduced weight than it would have been had they been complete.

In another application, doors were made with a molding to the interior that matched the wainscot in a library, and a different molding to the exterior that matched the hallway details. Very difficult to accomplish with a matched cope and stick set!

I like the technique as it allows you to make a very elaborate frame with minimal tooling and stock moldings that can be purchased if you don't have the capacity to make them.

[Vince Shriver]

Thanks, clears it up for me. Vince

[David DeCristoforo]

Here's another way to do it:

117923

"UPSIDE":

No nails or glue needed except to "tack" very long pieces of moulding somewhere in the middle. (glue goes on the "top" of the moulding "tongue" so it never gets on the panel).

No issues with wood movement.

Completely cool.

"DOWNSIDE":

Fussy and time consuming

Extra milling needed.

Also one piece of moulding in each door must be split into two pieces to get it into the groove. I usually make a 45 degree "scarf" with both pieces cut "contiguously" from the same stick so you would have a hard time finding the joints.

[Jeff Ranck]

This is all great stuff. Now with so many options, I'll just need to think through which one will work the best for the pannels. I can't thank all of you enough.

Jeff.