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mil ford
05-08-2009, 10:10 PM
I am looking for advice about med school. Currently I'm a teacher and I absolutely can't do it anymore. I am basically looking for your experiences with the med school work load. How is it with raising a family at the same time? Is it possible to work at the same time? What are possible ways to pay for it and the rest of the "grown up bills" a 32 year old has accumulated?

Cliff Rohrabacher
05-08-2009, 10:36 PM
I had a chat with my physician about Med school.
He told me that getting was hard but staying in was easy. That they bend over backwards to make sure you succeed.

I went to law school as an adult. If I had not been accepted in the only school to which I applied (Rutgers Newark) I wouldn't have gone 'cause I could not just pull up stakes and go live at a school elsewhere. I had to commute.
I went full time.


As a young father I attended undergrad full time plying my trade as a machinist during summers and part time. It was rough and I borrowed everything.

I have a feeling you are not going to find a part time Med school. Have you considered selling everything and moving to one of the island schools or Mexico where there are USA accepted programs real cheap with low cost of living?

It's not like attending a big name school with all the ego but, you can open a family practice in yahoo nowhere and be very happy.

Andrew Rogove
05-08-2009, 11:38 PM
I would think long and hard about medicine in general before you make the time/investment into med school. The current climate for doctors in many places is not very good. Malpractice insurance rates are high, practice costs/overhead increase constantly while reimbursement rates decrease. That said, I would do it all over again, I am just a glutton for punishment.

As far as your original question, at 32, assuming that you do not need additional "pre-med" courses and can start med school next year, you'd have 4 years of med school plus 3-7 years of residency plus additional years of fellowship if desired and you are looking 40 before practicing and earning a paycheck. You can work during med school, at least the first two years. The clinical responsibilities of 3rd and 4th year will make working difficult. Raising a family is not hard during med school, but can be very stressful during residency as your time outside of the hospital is limited to say the least. The cost of private med schools can be as high as 60,000/yr with state schools being less, but very competitive because of the cost. You can always get loans, but you may end up with as much debt post med school as a mortgage!

Sorry to sound so discouraging, but this is how it is. Many people do not realize the tough road and sacrifices a person makes to become a doctor (I spent nearly all of my 20's and my early 30's in medical school/residency/fellowship training, all of my 20's if you also count junior/senior year of college), but it is a very rewarding profession. There is little that can compare to delivering a baby, saving a life or even helping someone die with dignity.

Good luck with a difficult decision.
Andrew

RickT Harding
05-09-2009, 12:36 AM
My wife is finishing her last year of residency and I met her while working at the MSU medical school Flint campus, so seen a bit if it.

1) Workload is nuts. When we were dating, we'd meet at one apt or the other, make dinner, and she'd read for the rest of the night. It was much like having a 8-5 job honestly + homework every night on top of that. This was in her 3rd/4th years so I can't say for sure on the first two.

2) This leads to the next question, I don't see how you could work in medical school. Basically you live on student loans. Most of the med students I know build up between 120k - 200k in student loans during medical school.

The support staff at the school is nuts. They do EVERYTHING to make sure you can really just concentrate on medical school. When I first started working there I felt like I was being asked to babysit adults, but in time I appreciated their time commitments more.

3) People do the family thing, but I just can't see how it works out great. Honestly, I don't know that med school is the roughest though. The first two years of residency were the killers for us. 9 out of 12 months were 'on call' months and that meant she was working 30hr shifts every 3-5th night. I don't know how families make it through that. She'sd come home and sleep the next day away so even though she was 'working' for 30 hours, she was out of it another 12 or so on top of that.

As for the way things are today, she's finishing residency at a rotten time, at least in Michigan. She's signed up to make a big chunk less than she was guided towards. By the time one finishes medical school/residency now though, it would be totally different. You're talking 7-10 years down the road.

I don't want this to come across as negative. I've seen a ton of people go through and do this. I've seen plenty wash aside. Personally, I don't know how they do it. It's what she's wanted to do though and now that residency is coming to a close, she's loving having her own patients.

Hope that helps a bit and feel free to ask any particular questions. I can shoot them over to my wife if you want it in her words.

John Fricke
05-09-2009, 1:05 AM
If you are drawn to the medical field, have you considered nursing? My eldest son took an accelerated nursing program through a local community college. Start to finish was 13 months and he had his RN certifacation. He did have to take a couple of pre-reqs and be on a waiting list. since you are a teacher you may have the pre-reqs already. His schooling was quite intense....not much time for anything else, but it went pretty fast for him. He hired in at around $27/hr and he doesn't have a bachelors. With the schooling you already have and the nurse certificate, may not take you much more to have BSN in nursing. You would then have many options.

Ken Lefkowitz
05-09-2009, 7:53 AM
I have been a nurse as well as currently a physician. Nursing would cause you and your family the least amount of financial and emotional distress. If I could do it all over, I would be a Nurse Anesthetist. They assist the anesthesiologist in hospitals and surgical centers. Benefits, six figure income and other perks are all included.

Matt Meiser
05-09-2009, 8:11 AM
I would be a Nurse Anesthetist.

That's funny--my wife is in health care management and this is what she says all the time.

Scott T Smith
05-09-2009, 9:31 AM
My wife is finishing her last year of residency and I met her while working at the MSU medical school Flint campus, so seen a bit if it.

1) Workload is nuts. When we were dating, we'd meet at one apt or the other, make dinner, and she'd read for the rest of the night. It was much like having a 8-5 job honestly + homework every night on top of that. This was in her 3rd/4th years so I can't say for sure on the first two.

2) This leads to the next question, I don't see how you could work in medical school. Basically you live on student loans. Most of the med students I know build up between 120k - 200k in student loans during medical school.

The support staff at the school is nuts. They do EVERYTHING to make sure you can really just concentrate on medical school. When I first started working there I felt like I was being asked to babysit adults, but in time I appreciated their time commitments more.

3) People do the family thing, but I just can't see how it works out great. Honestly, I don't know that med school is the roughest though. The first two years of residency were the killers for us. 9 out of 12 months were 'on call' months and that meant she was working 30hr shifts every 3-5th night. I don't know how families make it through that. She'sd come home and sleep the next day away so even though she was 'working' for 30 hours, she was out of it another 12 or so on top of that.

By the time one finishes medical school/residency now though, it would be totally different. You're talking 7-10 years down the road.



+1

My wife's situation was similar, but different. In her 30's she decided to pursue her dream of becoming a veterinarian. The coursework is very similar to human medicine, except that you have to learn more species.

Her undergrad was in pre-law, so she worked full time and attended night school for three years in order to get her pre-med courses out of the way. Organic chemistry, the biology courses, etc, she took a full course load (12 hour semesters) so spare time pretty much evaporated.

After getting the prerequisites out of the way, she went off to vet med school and her work and private life basically ceased. There is NO TIME for family, relationships, work, etc while you're in vet school (and I understand that it's the same for med school) - it dominates your life. After graduating, she did a one year internship and about halfway through it she was able to start considering a private life again, and that's when we met and started dating.

And - it was prohibitedly expensive. Even with student grants and family support, not to mention investing her entire life savings, she still ran up over 150K in student loans by the time that she was finished. Debt service afterward was crushing. When we met, everything that she owned would fit into a two horse horse trailer, and that included the horse. All else had been sold to help pay for school.

If you are drawn to medicine because it's a life's dream, because you are now old enough to know that medicine was what you were meant to do and you don't want to be in your 70's looking back on life with a "gee I wish that I'd done that" view, and if the sacrifice is worth everything else that you have accumulated in life, then by all means pursue it, but know that you will make many, many sacrifices during the next several years.

If you're considering it for other reasons, than seriously consider a different career choice.

Ryan Adame
02-16-2022, 5:12 AM
Before you devote the time and money to med school, I would think long and hard about medicine in general. In many regions, the present climate for doctors is not favorable. Medical insurance premiums are costly, and practice costs/overhead are always rising while reimbursement rates are falling. That said, I'd do it all over again if I could, since I'm a glutton for torture.

Ron Citerone
02-16-2022, 8:19 AM
Having retired from teaching with 35 years, I have no regrets. With that said the last 2-3 years were real tough for me. My wife taught 30 years and has retired also, she did not feel burnt out like I did so it is not a foregone conclusion. If you are feeling that way at age 32, I think getting out is probably a good idea.

My daugter is an RN and it seems there is no shortage of jobs or overtime as well as signing bonuses. It is a calling though, and not for everyone. You can also later go back to be a nurse practitioner.

Med school is a long term undertaking and risk if you don't finish. I hope you consider every option before you commit. There are many medical professions that would take less time to get back to earning a paycheck. Only you can decide your path.

Good luck to you Mil!

Prashun Patel
02-16-2022, 8:32 AM
Btw, this thread is 11 years old…

But I find it an ironic snapshot in time. Teaching and medicine have become even more hard than they were in 2011…

Stan Calow
02-16-2022, 8:34 AM
What about being a Physician's Assistant (PA)? I understand they are in great demand.

John K Jordan
02-16-2022, 9:04 AM
Btw, this thread is 11 years old…

But I find it an ironic snapshot in time. Teaching and medicine have become even more hard than they were in 2011…

I saw the date and started to ask Mil if he pursued the med school but it looks like he hasn’t checked in for years. Maybe he’s deep into school now and doesn’t have time!

I know several veterinarians who are practicing, in grad school, about to graduate, and are in pre-vet school and I know this: there is almost NO time for anything but school - I assume medical school is similar. So much to know.

Robert Engel
02-16-2022, 10:13 AM
I graduated from veterinary school in 1983. I can tell you what John ^ said was true then. Occasional Friday afternoon keggers and volleyball kept us sane! When clinics started senior year it was a 24/7 type of thing with being on call.

A major difference with medical school is post graduate internships and residencies. You can immediately enter practice or even start your own practice after vet school.

The "corporatation" of medicine is to such an extent now, MD's are usually locked into health care systems, which dictate protocols and billing. Corporate ownership of private practices in vet medicine is very common now.

Bill Dufour
02-16-2022, 10:41 AM
I had a doctor who joined the Air Force to become a doctor. He went to civilian med school and summers in worked in base hospitals. AFAIK the air force paid for all the schooling. After becoming a full on doctor I think he had to stay in the air force for six years? They may have some say in what specialties you can learn. But maybe that includes stuff the VA would need?
They used to require a rotation into a inner city ER. This was to make sure the new doctor learned how to treat gunshot wounds and stabbing.s
Bill D.

Curt Harms
02-16-2022, 10:43 AM
What about being a Physician's Assistant (PA)? I understand they are in great demand.

That was my thought as well, and they make a decent buck.

Matt Day
02-16-2022, 10:01 PM
My wife is a physician. I can’t imaging going to med school while working a job with a family. And then you have residency rehires a lot of time.

Kevin Jenness
02-16-2022, 10:30 PM
For a musical perspective on the vet's life, a couple of Corb Lund tunes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JChwFoCxVC8 and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5geefvMDjME

Ken Fitzgerald
02-16-2022, 10:49 PM
During the 34 years I worked in hospitals and clinics, I worked with a half a dozen doctors who attended medical school while in the military. I know one radiologist and his wife, a neurologist who met while in med school on military scholarships. Doctors, nurses, dentists are professions for those who have a calling.

Scott Winners
02-16-2022, 10:58 PM
If we are just going to kick an old thread to death I will go for the kill shot. I spent the first 23 years of my career as an RN thinking I was in a pitched battle with sloth. Turns out I am up against pride. I am in the 40% of all RNs in the USA looking for another field to retire from this week. I have the added bonus of feeling I answered a calling from a higher power in the first place, but I can no longer drink from this cup. I just can't. So I got to comes to terms with Jesus and eternity before I make a move from this thing I understood to be a calling.

When a diabetic can't put down the sugar spoon, or a smoker can't get themselves off the coffin nails, they are really only hurting themselves. This one is an emotionally traumatic mind boggler. About a year ago I gave a head shrinker $200 up front to help me process the emotional trauma I am going through in real time so I wouldn't have to deal with PTSD later. He got eyes as big as saucers under a tea cup, told me he couldn't help me, and kept my $200.

We are headed for a new world, and the number of idealists in health care is going to be very low.

Good luck and best wishes. Thank God for woodworking as a hobby.

Sorry Keith. I overlooked and ignored and overlooked, but ultimately I just couldn't keep my mouth shut.

Edwin Santos
02-16-2022, 11:15 PM
Having worked in hospital administration for a good number of years, I can't speak as a physician, but was close enough to smell the smoke and see the flames. Let's put it this way, I am in now way encouraging my high school age kids to pursue a career in medicine. Most of the physicians on our staff were miserable and frustrated most of the time. I understand where Scott is coming from. Nurses have it rough. ICU, critical care, med-surg, all of them really. It used to be that a lot of nurses would move into case management to escape the stress of the floor, but IMO it was only trading one kind of pressure for another.

If health care is a draw, then for my money, it always looked like the PTs were on the high ground. A good balance of high pay, low stress, good hours. Rehab services are always a darling in reimbursement and very rarely under pressure to be cut. This is another way of saying, rehab is a revenue center, not a cost center, and that has its benefits. I'll group in OT and Speech with this category. Lots of options in outpatient settings too.

Anuj Prateek
02-17-2022, 12:30 AM
I am looking for advice about med school. Currently I'm a teacher and I absolutely can't do it anymore. I am basically looking for your experiences with the med school work load. How is it with raising a family at the same time? Is it possible to work at the same time? What are possible ways to pay for it and the rest of the "grown up bills" a 32 year old has accumulated?

Curious, why do you want to be a doctor? Is it your passion or is it prospect of earning more or is it that you just don't like your current profession?

If it's your passion then you are still young and would suggest pursuing medical school. You will be 40-42 by the time you are done with school and residency. It may not be ideal but it's not too late as well. You will have easily 2-3 decades to practice.

Finance is where it starts to get tricky. IIRC education will cost you ~ $250k and then there will be low earning (relatively) residency phase. I know the amount is high but in grand scheme of things, it's recoverable. As to family, if your SO is earning decently, it should not affect you much. Time spent with family will go down. But remember that it's not the only profession where people deal with time constraints.

Now if it's not your passion then 32 is a little late to start medical school. It's a significant undertaking and there are better options available to switch professions or earn more.

Scott Winners
02-17-2022, 2:35 AM
It used to be that a lot of nurses would move into case management to escape the stress of the floor, but IMO it was only trading one kind of pressure for another.


I have already moved into case management and many days when I get home my highest priority is to finish vomiting before my wife gets home.

Here is 5 things you can do to not need an RN in your life:
1. get a good night's sleep
2. be active as tolerated during the day
3. adequate hydration within whatever your fluid restriction might be
4. tylenol or aspirin for minor aches and pains
5. balanced nutrition. I cannot believe the money I get paid to preach what you were supposed to learn in third grade. Have three vegetables every day. Group one is the 'ok whatever' group. White potato as chips or fries, iceberg lettuce, corn, peas, come on, these are carbs. One dark leafy green veg every day, iceberg doesn't count. One veg with pretty colors every day, yellow, orange, red or purple. I simply cannot believe I am barely making low 6 figures annually to remind people of this.

My mom (now retired) was a family practice MD. I specifically went into nursing because she had zero free time. We were grocery shopping once when a fella lifted up his shirt on on aisle 3 in the Kroger to ask "Dr W, what is this?" clearly an infected abcess next to his left nipple and the canned vegetables on aisle three. If I had had a taser in the moment he would have gotten zapped with some kind of distinction to definitive zapping. EMS transport would have been required as his respiratory rate, when I was done with the taser, would have been zero breaths per minute.

I cannot recommend medicine or any of the allied health professions to anyone this year. It is true that Physical Therapy, Occupational Therapy and Speech Therapy (PT, OT and ST) don't have to take call, but those folks still have to deal with patients who expect a magic bullet or pill to instantly correct a lifetime of bad choices. 1:4 call here for me, screw it.

I shall continue to quietly stalk Edwin Santos as a creative genius even though he uses a lot of power tools. Jesus, please give me something different to do.

Brian Deakin
02-17-2022, 4:58 AM
It is often difficult in life to make decisions and I would offer the following advise

Seek out some form of counselling with the aim of being mentally in the best possible health before making any life decisions ,speak to people you trust implicitly and seek thier advise Think laterally are the barriers real or can you find a path through them

wishing you all the best

Brian

Ole Anderson
02-17-2022, 8:03 AM
Pick the right field and have the skillset and you can write your own ticket. I have a young friend that just finished his residency and is being courted by doctors driving Bentleys. Looking at high six figures to start. And hospital nurses are in such short supply around here they are being given enormous incentives to pick up shifts. But the burnout rate right now is crushing with Covid.

Lee Schierer
02-17-2022, 8:51 AM
Guys, this thread started in 2009, I'm sure the OP has made up his mind for a career many years ago.

Stan Calow
02-17-2022, 10:03 AM
Guys, this thread started in 2009, I'm sure the OP has made up his mind for a career many years ago. I hate when t hat happens and I fell for it too.

Bill Dufour
02-18-2022, 11:28 AM
Is is once again open to me. Not sure what happened there. Most of the advice is still useful. Covid has certainly changed things in medicine for the worse.
Bill D

Alan Lightstone
03-11-2022, 8:39 AM
I have been a nurse as well as currently a physician. Nursing would cause you and your family the least amount of financial and emotional distress. If I could do it all over, I would be a Nurse Anesthetist. They assist the anesthesiologist in hospitals and surgical centers. Benefits, six figure income and other perks are all included.

I could rant about this, being an anesthesiologist, but you are correct. CRNAs get their nursing degree, need to work 18 months in critical care, then go to CRNA school for an additional 18 months (may be 12, not sure anymore) then apply for a job with good hours, mid-high 6 figure income, and their national organization is constantly pushing for their ability to practice in all states without supervision (which, sadly, is the case in many states). It's an interesting job, with very high pay. And, during my 30 year career, was constantly in demand, basically everywhere. No coincidence that nurses are flocking towards CRNA school like crazy.

I retired after a 30 year career in medicine a couple of years ago. Most of it practicing in Level 1 trauma centers as a cardiothoracic anesthesiologist. Sadly, and I really mean sadly as I'm a second generation doctor, no way I could encourage anyone to go into medicine any longer. Corporate medicine, hospital and nursing politics, and insurance companies have made it very, very difficult to be a physician these days.

Medical school is difficult. I can't imagine working a second job during it. Residency, while having better hours now (at Harvard, my worst week was 116 hours working, then add 8 hours of commuting to that. Sleep was non-existent.) Now, in theory, hours are limited to 80 hours a week, but my understanding is that is routinely violated. Think about 80 hours of work a week sometime. I know other people who are struggling do that to make ends meet, and I truly sympathize with that, but the residents are also doing that for what amounts to less than minimum wage. And no tips.

Anyway, I hope this doesn't come off as ranting. Not my intent. Your age makes it a little more difficult, but not impossible to be a doctor. My medical school class had the distinction of having the oldest median age of any medical school in the country. One of my classmates started at age 42 after his PhD and working as a retinal researcher. He was the star of our class. So he didn't finish his training until age 50. Difficult -- I'm sure. But not impossible.

Alan Lightstone
03-11-2022, 8:47 AM
I hate when t hat happens and I fell for it too.

Yup, fell for it too.

I just looked up his name (if real) in the Florida Physicians database and couldn't find one that matched.