Question for Rob Lee and George Wilson

[Mat Ashton]

Was wondering tonight as I opened up the package containing the little scraper plane from lee valley. And it occurred to me that in 150 to 200 years from now people will be cherishing these tools made by todays craftmen. And it makes me wonder or more, ask the question: how does it make you feel to be part of history? The tools made are going to be highly sought after, especially yours George, in a century from now. People will be talking about what you guys have left behind... And the little scraper plane is a beaut!

[Eric Brown]

First Rob Lee, when are you bringing out more of the Premium line? Not counting the kneepads, you have only introducedone block plane and that was just around Thanksgiving of last year. Been way too long.

Second George Wilson, your past work is great and many of us would love to buy a book, but are you making anything now?

Sincerely, Eric

[george wilson]

Hello,Mat and Eric. I am making a guitar right now,plus doing work on our 1949 house.I've built over 400',probably 450' of nice shelving for my shop,built in wall of book cases for my den,shelving in closets,and a bunch of other things to finish restoring and improving the house. We moved here 4 years ago,and the house,though a high quality colonial house that would look at home down in Williamsburg's historic area,was left to get in long need of repairs for several previous years.Plus,I designed and had built a 30' X 40' 2 story shop for myself,and our home business,which resides on the sunny 2nd. floor. We did the interior ourselves. I put in new flooring in the original 16' X 22' garage which the new shop was added onto,and installed he flooring in the upstairs shop,and the trim,both upstairs and down. Couldn't see paying $8000.00 to get the interior painted,though it took 3 coats. Also,installed a Dust Gorilla dust collector with spiral piping in the woodworking machine area. I keep the woodworking machinery in the original garage,with an 18" shutter fan in the wall next to the dust collector's filter. All floating dust gets pulled toward this fan,way from the large "clean room" where my machine shop and workbench area is.

There are still things to be done,such as developing the blacksmithing area. I have got to make a large metal hood to suck out the fumes from the gas furnace in that area,which also has another 18" shutter fan. We haven't yet done the new counter tops in the kitchen. The list never seems to end. I can tell you,I will never move again,at 68.

Mat,I suppose most of us would like to be able to leave something of our existence behind,so that is nice. The tools will endure longer than my primary work,which was making musical instruments for about the first 35 years,then a blend of instruments and tools after that. They may become collectible,some already have been collected. Many will,and are,well worn from daily use in Williamsburg. My nicer pieces have been better protected,though still used.

Curiously enough,the "elite" in the curatorial staff of Williamsburg rather neglect us craftsmen,while they revere and make great studies of the craftsmen of the past. I wonder if they will focus upon what they once had in their own museum,in the future? Many of the Williamsburg craftsmen wonder that. It seems sort of stupid to us.You know,as in most artists,who were as common as dirt in their day,you have to be dead to be great. Even Albrect Durer was specially elevated to artist by,I believe Ferdinand,was just a common workman,before. Other great artists were just tools of popes and the wealthy,to be used,and often cheated out of their wages,or put to work designing stage settings,or fortifications,or other relatively menial work. Michangelo used to carve out stone cannon balls when he was young. Not that I compare myself to them by any means.But it shows how most artists and craftsmen have been treated while alive. I spent a fair amount of time making things like a reproduction fire engine,and the big cider press. I could do those things,but it wasn't really my most artistic work.

[Richard Dooling]

Curiously enough,the "elite" in the curatorial staff of Williamsburg rather neglect us craftsmen,while they revere and make great studies of the craftsmen of the past.

Dead craftsmen are way easier to order around than those pesky live ones.

.

[george wilson]

They somehow think of ur class as not educated,yet,they waste incredible amounts of money,and sometimes make the most unenlightened decisions we ever saw!

They purchased a William Byrd library table without consulting with their technicials. This was a 6 figure purchase. Turned out that 3 of the 4 legs,and the top of the table were replacements. There was a pierced gallery around the top. That was a replacement,too. Competent craftsmen could see the difference in the work,though the learned curators apparently could not. They probably spent 5 figures having the table restored,and still had a mostly non original table.

They made plans to put a carpet in the huge ballroom of the Governor's Palace. A carpet in a ballroom!!! Also,where the dozens of candles from above would have dripped on it.

To make this enormous rug,a huge loom would have had to be built,too.

I never heard of a sillier idea,myself. Plus,would the rug have been walked on every day by a solid line of tourists?

They hired,against my protests,a total fraud to restore their collection of keyboard instruments. He had a very refined English accent,a prerequisite in those circles. He butchered and did irrepairable damage to the collection. This fool even shellaced over dust bunnies on the soundboards of harpsichords. I cannot list the crazy things he did. It took 3 years for them to figure out their mistake.Considerably huge egos were involved,too. They just cannot ever admit that their opinions are wrong. They finally hired a competent technician,who spent years going back and trying to undo damage,unable to restore archeological evidence that had been destroyed by this fool. They finally found out that I was right. I cannot understand people who simply do not have eyes to see. The man's work looked like a 9th.grader's first woodshop project. It was all guile,English accent and total B.S. with this person.Plus,he was an unhonest swindler.

He would take a piano on an agreed price,and when it was done,he would write a letter,not even call the person,threatening to sell the piano unless the owner paid him about 3 times what he had agreed to charge. He tried that with me,but had made the mistake of delivering the piano already. I had a signed contract from him. Early on,we had been friendly.I suddenly got this letter threatening legal action-he didn't even call me first. I told him that I had made plenty of money on the piano,and that if he had asked for more nicely,I would have given it to him out of friendship,but he'd get nothing else after this stunt. I had recommended him to a prominent antique dealer in Williamsburg,who had an 18th.C. piano in his window,needing repairs to the action,and strings. I went to warn him what had happened. He told me it was already too late. He'd paid the guy more just to avoid trouble.

I did not see his bad workmanship at that stage,because I hired him to restring the piano,and do a little work on the felt hammers.

When I related these stories to the curators,they accused me of having a vendetta,and did not even bother to contact the dealer. By this time,they had gotten the guy to build a piano,which actually warped so terribly that it was unbelievable. The veneer had been put on with contact cement,and was coming loose in big football sized blisters. When you pushed them down,there was a sticking sound,and the blisters popped back up! The wood used for the cabinet was so green,that the cabinet had shrunk in height so that the veneer was sticking up 1/4" above the top edge of the case. This was when the piano was only about 6 months old!!! This was a grand piano shaped instrument. The case warping was also due to the green wood. The guy had no concept of how to use wood,none!!!!! He also worked in a DIRT FLOOR garage.The curator would never admit that there was anything wrong with the piano,but years later,I found out that they secretly tried to get rid of the piano by offering it as a present to large donors. There were no takers.

Just to show how cagey he was,the very rural county he lived in was threatening to tear down the horribly dilapidated old farmhouse he lived in. I mean,there must have been 4 INCHES of MOSS on the roof. The house looked like it was from the 1920's.The place was dangerous to live in. He manged to convince the county that the old dump was a HISTORIC building,due to its age. So,they didn't tear it down. Wonder if the county spent money restoring it? I tell you,this charactor was a great B.S. artist. That is what sustained him. He came to this country with an even bigger fraud,a rare book dealer who also had a bunch of very early keyboard instruments. He told me later that he left England owing 3000.00 pounds in back taxes. They got all set up in a nice plantation house over in rural Surrey county. This is when I met them,and all looked well. the rare book dealer ended up with some kind of class action lawsuit against him from the people he had been swindling. They lost their plush layout,and the last thing I heard of the rare book dealer,he was seating people in a restaurant in Franklin,Va..

[Gary Herrmann]

George, unfortunately that kind of thing holds true in all kinds of professions. Perceived pedigree is more important than evidence provided by deliverables.

[Matt Hankins]

While some of my colleagues may not have appreciated it, when I worked in a museum(in my former life), I was always aware that my work would likely be viewed by future historians. I was also aware that it would be judged right next to the original surrounding fabric. Nothing humbles a craftsman like the realization that your work is going to be around after you. I always felt that it was an honor (as well as sometimes daunting) to place my work next to that of some long gone craftsperson. Part of my love of this work is being able to study the original and the care that was given to doing the job. I can only hope that I can do justice to the original builders and all of the people that resided and worked in the buildings I restore. Even though I no longer work for a museum, I am still restoring buildings and still feel the same way. I guess it isn't important to me that my name is known so much as my work is appreciated.

In hindsight, I guess it seems a little presumptuous to lump myself into the same category of craftsman as George and Rob. I just find the topic of Mat's post interesting. This jumps to mind when ever I am handling and restoring an original piece. Sorry if I hijacked the post a bit!

[george wilson]

Tell me about it,Gary !!! I learned that lesson a long time ago. Never the less,I enjoyed working in Williamsburg,and had pretty much my own autonomy the greatest part of the time. I was able to greatly increase my craftsmanship and knowledge there. Any place else,which doesn't have to earn money,would probably have been just as messed up. Worse,I suppose,with the huge frauds we are now hearing about on Wall Street.

[Bob Strawn]

I wish that the rest of Williamsburg lived up to your standards of research and truth. Your work is quite extraordinary. Your research is delightful and is tested.

Here is my Williamsburg experience, as a child, when I went to Colonial Williamsberg for the first time, My family made a point to sit in our family pew.
This was the front right pew, it was labeled ‘Uptigraph,’ My grandmothers maiden name. My father told me that when the church was built, one of the ways it was paid for, was for the wealthy families to ‘buy a pew.’ My father’s mother’s family had donated a hefty amount for the honor of having this be their official seat.
When I went back there with group while I was going to camp, the pew had been renamed. Apparently Uptigraph was not important enough sounding, it was now the ‘House of Burgess’ pew. It was pretty silly, but it made me somewhat question the authority of the place.
I went back there when I was a camp councilor, the pew had changed names again. Apparently the House of Burgess was not important enough sounding, it was now the ‘George Washington’ pew. It really makes me wonder what else they have altered. I have not been back since, nor have I taken my family.

So while I have good reason to have little faith in Williamsburg in general, I cannot praise or thank individuals such as yourself, enough.

Bob

[george wilson]

Seems as if your family paid for it,your name should still be on it. Was that Bruton Parish?

[Bob Strawn]

The last time I visited was in 77, I think it was Bruton Parish, a small chapel, by modern standards, with a crowded graveyard beside it.

I remember a modern building at the front, walking under a bridge, seeing a windmill a few shops and the church. My father had tons of history at his recall, including which gravestones marked relations of ours. Sadly I retain little of that wealth of knowledge. To make it worse I have been spelling Updegraff wrong for years apparently. It is my Uncles middle name so I have checked with that and discovered my mistake.

When I say I think it was Bruton Parish, it is because I went to their website and the interior does not resemble my memory of the chapel.

In the families discussion of this, I can recall a wry sense of historical interest tinged with humor. They mentioned that the pew had been named for a man before, but that on a rebuild, the new front pew was sold again to fund the process. Several of the pews had names on them. There was some discussion that they might have reverted the name to an older tradition, but the name of the family before was not House of Burgess. They did mention that George Washington's Sister married into the Lewis family that was part of my grandmother's relations (Not genetic line however) so it would have been likely that George Washington had indeed sat at the pew.

Hardly a tramatic experience, but as a youth having one of the most important historic landmarks relative to my family revised twice has lead me to have a cautious view of history and historians. :) It amazes me how often a close examination of artifacts and the use and replication of them gives us information that is quite different from the written histories.

Bob

[Mat Ashton]

In hindsight, I guess it seems a little presumptuous to lump myself into the same category of craftsman as George and Rob. I just find the topic of Mat's post interesting. This jumps to mind when ever I am handling and restoring an original piece. Sorry if I hijacked the post a bit!

Heck don't think that way. I suspect there some very highly skilled people on this forum that go about their work quietly and unassumingly. It would be much better it they shared their work with us. It was just a fleeting thought I had at the time and those were the first names that came to mind.

[george wilson]

Bob,It sounds just like Bruton Parish from your description. I must tell you,though,that Bruton Parish is not at all connected with Colonial Williamsburg. It is in the Historic area,but was never bought by the foundation,just been there for hundreds of years. There have been a few hold outs of original owners of houses who never sold when the town began to be bought up starting in 1927. Some of the old residents hated turning their quiet,decaying town into a public place.

When the British began bombarding the then capital of Virginia from the river,the capital was moved up the river to Richmond,where ships could not go. The old capital was left there,and was as largely untouched as possible,so many of the old buildings remained. That is why it was decided that the town would be ideal for restoration.

[Rob Lee]

Hi Mat -

Sorry for the late reply - am still on a trip, and haven't had internet access (sitting in Williams AZ right now....).

Yes - leaving something behind is certainly a plus... but at the moment, I see keeping 850+ people gainfully employed as more than satisfying. It takes a large group of people to make a product - and there are a lot of people who contribute.

I'm sort of like the conductor of an orchestra... while I get to take the bow for all, I don't play the music (though I do write the odd score :D ) .

Cheers -

Rob
(late for dinner)

[Rob Lee]

First Rob Lee, when are you bringing out more of the Premium line?

(snip)

Sincerely, Eric


Hi Eric -

It's in progress now - just coming out of final design...I expect it'll be after Christmas though.... we have too many other planes ahead of it - not to mention other products....

Cheers -

Rob
(now even later for dinner...:eek:)

[Brian Kent]

First Rob Lee, when are you bringing out more of the Premium line? Not counting the kneepads, you have only introducedone block plane and that was just around Thanksgiving of last year. Been way too long.

Second George Wilson, your past work is great and many of us would love to buy a book, but are you making anything now?

Sincerely, Eric

Hey Eric, it took Mr Stanley decades to develop his line I think we should give Rob all the time he needs. At least until July!;:D

Brian

[Bob Strawn]

So it's the Vestry changing history on this. It figures. Vestry's have a fine tradition of improving history.

So now I am curious to look at the parish records about that time. Find out if it was the Parish Vestry or the Reverend that made the decision, or if it was quietly done. Sounds like the sort of thing the Parish Vestry would do, I can see them considering it a bit silly to have a name on a bench that had not been represented there for years. Changing it to the George Washington pew is I suppose a common enough practice and since the practice of pew buying is not common knowledge it might not even be generally misleading. The Reverend at the time however may be culpable, since the Reverend usually has authority over the chapel.

Still, naming a pew after George Washington because he might have sat in it, has been done with enough bedrooms to give the act a touch of humor. :)

With that update, I may just have to visit Williamsburg again some day. I suspect that I would spend more time with the craftsmen than at the chapel.

Bob

[Bill Houghton]

Still, naming a pew after George Washington because he might have sat in it, has been done with enough bedrooms to give the act a touch of humor. :)

One of my all time favorite bumper stickers reads, "Heisenberg may have slept here."

[george wilson]

Bruton is the only church around there with the chops to say that Washington sat there.

[Ray Gardiner]

One of my all time favorite bumper stickers reads, "Heisenberg may have slept here."

Are you certain?

Regards
Ray

[george wilson]

Bob,I wonder if they changed the name to glorify God,or to glorify Bruton? :)

[Thomas Knapp]

If the sermons were bad enough the pew could say George Washington:) slept here!

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

While not being either of Rob or George, I would settle for the people who get my tools in a hundred years time looking approvingly at them in the manner that I do to the tools that were well maintained and don't require a ton of rehabilitation. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of finished projects, and the ones I do have tend to be shop stuff like handles, but it would be nice if those lasted too.

[Jeff Bratt]

One of my all time favorite bumper stickers reads, "Heisenberg may have slept here."

Well he may have been there, or he may have been sleeping, but you can't be sure of both...

[Bob Strawn]

Bob,I wonder if they changed the name to glorify God,or to glorify Bruton? :)

From my experience with small, old churches, some members of the vestry may have trouble separating the two in their mind.

My logical disconnect on this is rather funny to me. It was a scandal when I thought that a historical preservation society had mangled the facts and was enhancing their image by doing so, but when it turned out that a church did it, I rather expected and accepted it. :rolleyes:

While I am rather religious and Episcopalian, it is apparent who I hold to a higher standard.

Bob