Tailvise design

[Pedro Reyes]

I am in that dreaming stage of wanting to build a new bench, won't go into details of what type but one thing that I do want is a tail vise, made with a wood screw.

Something I have not seen in either of the two books I've read and constantly re-read portions of (Landis & Schwartz), is details on tailvise design, there are plans, but no real analysis of certain feautures, or perhaps I've missed the details on my reads. I am a mechanical engineer so it helps my little-gear brain to have some sort of analytical explanation for things.

I am mostly refering to the tailvises designed in that "L" shape, which in reality is a rectangular frame (e.g. Frank Klaus'). I infer it is because, since the screw had to be offset from the actual jaw (where the force acts) the frame would help with the racking and also the guiding.

But no one talks about the specifics, e.g. optimal distances, relations. Or even more no one seems to provide guidelines, for example the ME in me says "the closer the screw is to the force (jaw), the better it is for the screw" There are many ways to build this obviously. Can your screw thread into the end cap? or could it thread somewhere else further left into the bench?

There is also some rule in these types of vises, basically all clamping should be done with the dog holes or the face in line with them and not to clamp anything on the end portion of the vise (against the end cap). I would assume that a well built frame with a centered screw would allow this without any problem (yet not optimal for using the dog holes).

Any thoughts, insights, experiences, etc. would be appreciated.

peace

/p

[John Schreiber]

Tail vises of that type have an old-world charm, but I see many people turning in different directions. I mounted an iron tilting jaw Wilton off the end of my bench. Many people are now using wagon vises (http://www.google.com/search?q=wagon+vise&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS273US273) and seem to like them very much.

Tail vises seem very fiddly to build, are inclined to not stay even with the benchtop, and when are not as strong as they appear. They look like a solid part of the bench, but because they are assembled from relatively thin panels, you can't treat them like you can the rest of the bench. Still if well built with quality hardware, they add a lot of functions and can be a showplace of the handwork required to build one.

[Dan Karachio]

Hello John, could you please provide more details on "iron tilting jaw Wilton off the end of my bench." Pics would be nice if you have time.

[Pedro Reyes]

Tail vises of that type have an old-world charm, but I see many people turning in different directions. I mounted an iron tilting jaw Wilton off the end of my bench. Many people are now using wagon vises (http://www.google.com/search?q=wagon+vise&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1B3GGGL_enUS273US273) and seem to like them very much.

...

John,

Agree, so that is also part of my question, I think there are advantages to having the "L" shaped traditional vise, otherwise why did it exist? Why weren't all just using wagon vises then? I don't see the wagon vise as something that was only recently enabled by some technological advance, so in theory it was available then yet some chose the "L" shape over it.

Better understanding of the reasons would help me infer design characteristics.

/p

[Brian Kent]

Tail vises of that type have an old-world charm, but I see many people turning in different directions. I mounted an iron tilting jaw Wilton off the end of my bench.

Is this what you are talking about? It is in Sam Maloof's studio.

[John Schreiber]

Hello John, could you please provide more details on "iron tilting jaw Wilton off the end of my bench." Pics would be nice if you have time.
It's one of these. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B00062NEKU/sr=1-4/qid=1241640947/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=228013&s=hi&qid=1241640947&sr=1-4
117609
Very heavy duty and has a nice quick release. The tilting jaw goes up and down just like a very broad bench dog. I've got it mounted with the rear jaw inset to the bench and a thin chop on the tilting jaw. I can also remove the tilting jaw and place a larger fixed chop with dog holes in it on the main jaw. It is lined up with the dog holes along the front of the bench. It's also very handy for doing some work with natural/oddly shaped pieces.

[John Schreiber]

otherwise why did it exist? Why weren't all just using wagon vises then?
Excellent question and I wonder too. My guess is that they were invented and the was tradition started when they were made with wooden screws and that there was no intent to put a lot of pressure on them. Most work can be done with only a planing stop to hold the wood and a tail vise could be wanted to provide just a bit more support.

That doesn't answer the question of why they would choose a tail vise instead of a wagon vise. Tradition? You can also hold some long or unusually shaped curved things in the jaw of a tail vise.

I'm just speculating. For me, I wanted something which could handle more load than a tail vise, didn't make me afraid of pounding on the wrong part of the bench, and wasn't fiddly.

[Richard Dooling]

I am thinking of moving over to a wagon vise from a tail vise myself.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=110850

I have to admit though, I was clamping a board on edge in the tail vise this weekend and a real advantage was in being able to vary the angle quite a lot because the "side" of the vise is open.

Having said that, I have found that John is right in his assessment. They are fiddly and sag a bit are not very strong where vertical forces are concerned. Hmmm.. I might be describing myself:eek:

[Pedro Reyes]

I am thinking of moving over to a wagon vise from a tail vise myself.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=110850



Richard,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but your tailvise is the kind where it is not "L" shaped, but rather a semi-hollow assembly that houses the screw slightly offset to the dog holes. Right?

I think that "L" shaped vises have it's merits... capsule here, I am not out to convince anyone that they are better I'm not sure of it myself, I just want to experience building one and would like to understand how to build a better one... I also think that while not intended to whitstand strong vertical loads, they could be made not to sag (if made as "L" shaped, the hollow ones would sag more). After all best place to pound down on mortices or dovetails is right over the legs, not on a vise.

Ideally your screw is only loaded axially, and not used as a support runner, hence the frame design on "L" shaped taivises (I infer). This is very difficult on a vise which does not have a frame (i.e. rectangular straight vises) since the screw acts as the support runner...

Eureka! just had a lightbulb moment, I am out to design a "U" shaped vise (imagine edge tailvise combined with wagon vise with a big screw in the middle). Let me sketch and I'll share...

/p

[David Keller NC]

"Tail vises seem very fiddly to build, are inclined to not stay even with the benchtop, and when are not as strong as they appear."

Gotta agree with John here. I've built 3 of them, 2 out of wood and the latest one with a metal screw and guides with wood "stuffing". After messing with this last one, I vowed I'd never build another. Despite being an engineer, all of the "fiddling" to get it to work right drove me nuts, and I swore I'd never build another.

My guess as to why these are traditional (at least traditional from about 1830 onward) is that I'm thinking that the close tolerances required for a wagon vise didn't fit in with the tools and materials of the time. As one example, I'd think fitting the wagon vise chop to a wooden screw such that it held well but was still free to rotate must've been a real engineering challenge. Could be wrong about that, though - I've never tried to build a wagon vise from wooden components.

As to the prohibition on clamping things in the "L" part of the vise, I'm betting that had something to do with not monkeying up the wooden vise screw - the racking associated with clamping something in there would probably shear off some of the threads on a wooden screw.

[Richard Dooling]

I have to go with David that the admonition against clamping on the "L" may very well have to do with older wooden components. I do have a modified L and I do clamp with it, Still the "old wives" keep me from over-stressing this vise. It is a hollow body design with metal guide plate and runners.

Pedro, I'm interested in what might be bubbling around in your head! There is no reason a tail vise design should not be be able to be strong enough to also serve as a work surface. Thinking cap malfunctioning ^*%$3!! arghhh!!

.

[Raney Nelson]

My feeling on the "L" vises was that it allowed for the guides to be substantially wider, which to my mind would help somewhat with racking. I may be off base here - I seem to be one of the few non-engineers here ;)

I've thought about the wagon vise question some as well... I have one of the pre-made LN tail vises on my current bench, and I'm also of the opinion that the tail vise just seems like an inferior design to me. The hardware is excellent, but I covet the Benchcrafted wagon vise hardware - I really think it's the best overall design I've seen, and the ability to actually WORK on the entire top of my bench is really appealing.

I can say with complete certainty, though, that I will never again own a bench with a tail vise.

[Russ Hauser]

Is this what you are talking about? It is in Sam Maloof's studio.

Brian:

I believe that is an Emmert pattern Maker's vise mounted on Sam Maloof's bench.

Russ

[Brian Kent]

Brian:

I believe that is an Emmert pattern Maker's vise mounted on Sam Maloof's bench.

Russ

Thank you Russ.

Brian

[harry strasil]

When I made my NuBench, I was seriously considering an End Vise, my plan was to use a large sliding dovetail cut into 4 inch solid Oak with a metal vise screw to operate it. I went with the so called Wagon Vise instead, so I wouldn't have anything projecting past the end of the bench as I am very limited for space.

[Sean Hughto]

For what it's worth:

http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=7063.1

I wouldn't trade mine.

[Pedro Reyes]

...Pedro, I'm interested in what might be bubbling around in your head! ...
.

Richard,

Still primitive stages, but basic concept, the vise is laminations to make it a solid not a hollow frame. The screw would be to the right (in deeper into bench) next to the main body of the jaw, probably threaded thru the end cap (shown transparent) but I need to modify end cap still.

The Top thickness is 3-3/4" but as you can see some boards have a 1-1/2 in removed to allow the vise's frame to run there, there would of course be a notched piece screwed to the bottom of the top to house the runner.

There would also be an additional runnner, which working in pair with the vises runner (stick parallel to main jaw) would support the whole thing taking the load off the screw (shear load).

[Richard Dooling]

Hey Pedro,
I don’t know that the hollow body is so much the problem. I think the problem has more to do with the fact that the vise is wholly supported on only one side. That’s OK for the forces applied in line with the screw but the forces applied vertically to the outer, unsupported edge are going to be hard to counteract. Maybe the issue is the relative thinness of the metal plates. Sean’s hardware is, I think stronger than what I have because it has the additional outside metal plates that should stabilize the metal box. Mine relies on the wood box to keep the upper and lower plates square and parallel.

I think that the runner in your design would largely address the vertical stress but there would still be significant lateral stress (red arrow) on whatever holds the vise body to the bench – in this case the traditional grooved metal plate and runner system.?

Just my musings, but what if the entire vertical load were transferred to a sliding mechanism under the table top. For that matter the screw could be located there too with the vise body, as you suggest, being solid. Maybe something with a dovetail way and a brass gib to take out slop without being too tight.
Obviously I’m no engineer:confused:

.

117831

[george wilson]

I have use tail vises for many years without problems. When I was open to the public,the end of my bench nearest to the public had the tailvise on it. I used the tailvise a lot more than the leg vise,believe it or not. Of course,i was making mostly guitars,violins,lutes,and viola da gambas.

I wanted a way to hold tapers,so I took 2- 4"x4" x6" pieces of hardwood. I drilled holes vertically through the center
s of the tops of the blocks,and put lag screws down through them.( The 6" lengths laid horizontally across the width of the bench,and were the same width as the jaws of the vise beneath them.) One into the tail vise,and 1 into the bench near the stationary jaw. When the tailvise has closed,the blocks also were closed. This made a nice working vise with swivel jaws to hold guitar necks,and other tapers,of which there are many on instruments. I just took the jaws off when not in use.

Of course,my work was not of real heavy types. I made my home bench,and while the one at work had a wooden screw,I made all the sliding tracks and screw,and handle myself out of steel. If I ever get my bench uncluttered,I'll post pictures. You can't see the mechanism anyway,without taking the vise apart,but the handle is artistic.