Variable Speed Bandsaw: Is it worth the cost & trouble?

[Tom Overthere]

I’d like to be able to cut a wide range of materials--other than wood--on a band saw. Not sure if this idea is feasible:
Buy a band saw with a 220v 3-phase motor (3HP) and add a 3HP Variable Frequency Drive. Motor/blade speed is then adjustable over a wide range, but at considerable cost.

Cutting some materials requires lubing/cooling the blade. I’m concerned this will “gum up” or rust the machine and perhaps have some negative effect on the rubber wheel covers/tires. Also, there’d be a lot of blade changing involved IF the required specialty blades can be obtained. Here’s what I imagine cutting:
a) wood – standard speeds, no coolant required
b) metal – lowered speeds per VFD, oil or special coolant required
c) plastics – lowered speeds per VFD (?), no coolant required
d) glazed and unglazed ceramics – lowered speeds per VFD (?), water coolant required

At present, my choices seem to be:
GRIZZLY G0514x2 - SINGLE-Phase 220v (http://www.grizzly.com/products/19-Extreme-Bandsaw-3HP-Single-Phase/G0514X2) $1395
or
GRIZZLY G0514x3 - THREE-Phase 220v (http://www.grizzly.com/products/19-3-HP-3-Phase-Extreme-Series-Bandsaw/G0514X3) $1395 + HITACHI 3HP VFD X200-022NFU (http://www.driveswarehouse.com/Drives/AC+Drives/Variable+Torque+VFD/X200-022NFU.html) $255 for a total of $1650.
That's BIG BUCKS for variable speed!


Please give me a much-needed Reality Check :D
Thanks, Tom

[george wilson]

I work both metal and wood. My metal and wood bandsaws are separate. Metal debris is too dirty to be getting into your wood,and will mess up your planer,etc.

I can tell you that for cutting tool steel,a speed of 75 SFPM is needed. Mild steel can be cut with a bit faster speed. Brass and aluminum can be cut with an ordinary wood saw. I do not advise the mixing,though,unless you are prepared to very carefully clean your machine after cutting metal,including getting ground in metal dust out of your tires,so it won't be carried into your wood.

Actually,$300.00 extra dollars for variable speed is quite cheap compared to a few years ago. I just do not advise it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, wood bandsaws run around 4,000 feet per minute blade speed.

Metal bandsaws are in the 50 to 200 feet per minute range.

As has been previously posted, metal chips will get everywhere, it make your wood saw unusable due to contamination.

I have a seperate bandsaw in the garage for metal, seperate drill press in the garage, no metal working in the wood shop at all.

The other issue is horsepower, if you use an electronic VFD to change your speed from 4,000 to 100 FPM, your saw power will fall by that ratio.

That's why metal saws use mechanical speed reduction, so they can provide enough power at the blade to cut metal in a reasonable fashion.

Regards, Rod.

[Tom Overthere]

George ==

Thanks a LOT for the warning regarding metal bits ending up in my wood work pieces. That alone is reason not to do this.

What size bandsaw to you have for metal work? I've looked at the Harbor Freight horizontal/vertical (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=93762) as a low-cost option, but worry that its cutting capacity will prove too small/limited

[Tom Overthere]

Rod ==
Yeah, that contamination issue definitely means "no dice". I keep my milling machine in a separate room, but have been using a single drill press for everything....hmmmm. Thanks for the warning, and I wasn't aware that a VFD would reduce the motor's power directly in line with the reduction in speed. Bummer, dude. :D

[phil harold]

my dad installed a reeves drive on an old craftsman to cut steel
worked sweet

[Tom Overthere]

my dad installed a reeves drive on an old craftsman to cut steel - worked sweet
Phil ==
Where can you get a Reeves drive?
Do you have to pull it out of an existing machine, like a Powermatic lathe?

Or can the drive system be purchased as an "accessory" and added to an existing motor system?

[David G Baker]

Tom,
Google Reeves Drive and you will find what you need to know. I had never heard of it so I had to find out about it too.

[Tom Overthere]

Tom,
Google Reeves Drive and you will find what you need to know. I had never heard of it so I had to find out about it too.
Thanks, David. Per your suggestion, I Googled, but THIS (http://www.dodge-reliance.com/pdf/catalog/custom_classic/moto_fea_ben.pdf) is all I found.

A far cry from the simple mechanism in the old Powermatic 45, and surely far, far more expensive.

Please do let me/us know if you were able to come up with a source for a reasonably-priced Reeves Drive kit or components.

Thanks

Also learned: Generic term for a Reeves Drive is a CVT, Continuously Variable Transmission. There are serveral types.

[David G Baker]

Tom,
At one time I ran motion picture film processing labs, the variable speed drive system that powered the processor had a drive system similar to the Reeves drive setup. After ten years of almost continuous operation I started having problems with the drive so I replaced it with a Bodine DC drive motor with an angle gear drive that had an electronic speed control. The Bodine drive was a great modification and it cost at
least 60% less than a replacement for the original drive set up. Grainger is an excellent source for information on drive systems.
Like you I was left a little confused as to the Reeves Drive system being economical enough to buy unless you already had one or found one cheap but maybe someone else on SMC can enlighten us.

[Brian Kincaid]

Metal debris + wood = bad experience
It involved my brand new LN #4 bronze hand plane.

:(Brian

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I work both metal and wood. My metal and wood bandsaws are separate. Metal debris is too dirty to be getting into your wood,and will mess up your planer,etc.


What he said.

[george wilson]

For many years I have had a small horizontal-vertical metal bandsaw. I got mine in 1974. It is a Dayton. It was my only metal saw for 20 years. I now have a proper vertical metal saw,as well as a Roll In vertical bandsaw,which is great. The saw rolls down a slight incline while the metal is clamped. It self feeds through metal like a champ.

I was able with a decent blade to rotate a 6" steel bar,and cut it pretty accurately,though the saw is a 4" X 6" capacity saw. They all only use a 1/2" blade,not the best for contour work,but I sawed out my dovetailed metal planes with mine by nibbling away at it. You can see them pictured on the Neander section,though,by now,my pictures are scattered among the last 12 pages.

If you don't want to spend a lot,one of the little saws should work for you.

[phil harold]

Phil ==
Where can you get a Reeves drive?
Do you have to pull it out of an existing machine, like a Powermatic lathe?

Or can the drive system be purchased as an "accessory" and added to an existing motor system?
I assume it was reclaimed out of another machine

[John McCaskill]

I have a retrofitted Jet 14" BS with a 2 HP 3-Ph motor and a Toshiba VFD. Input is 240 VAC single phase, output is 3 phase. I don't have all the info with me but will take a picture and post it for you. I think I may have spent $200 or so on the VFD.

I won't get into the metal cutting on a wood band saw discussion. I'll just show you my existing setup. :)

John

[Bob Aquino]

Its not a bad idea, except that I wouldn't start with a Griz, but maybe an older Delta or Powermatic. There are some big old bandsaws out there with 3 phase motors on them. Here is mine, its a 20" Delta/Rockwell with a VFD in the column. Works very well, I can slow it down and cut aluminum if I need to. As for metal shavings in the wood, that isn't an issue. Lots of guys like to theorize on what happens, I'll just say its never been an issue for me. Worst case, you clean the tires if any metal becomes embedded which usually doesnt happen.
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_nh7rpc89jO0/SMxQNdqttKI/AAAAAAAAERI/fJ6tMv8fJSI/s800/P1030342.JPG

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_nh7rpc89jO0/SMxQMjH0YHI/AAAAAAAAEQ4/lUpNpKtNsqE/s800/P1030344.JPG

[John McCaskill]

I have a retrofitted Jet 14" BS with a 2 HP 3-Ph motor and a Toshiba VFD. Input is 240 VAC single phase, output is 3 phase. I don't have all the info with me but will take a picture and post it for you. I think I may have spent $200 or so on the VFD.

I won't get into the metal cutting on a wood band saw discussion. I'll just show you my existing setup. :)

John

Here are some pictures of my VFD-driven band saw. The VFD is a WEG band (rather than Toshiba) and does a great job of controlling band saw speed (or reversing it, if needed)

John

[Tom Overthere]

Its not a bad idea, except that I wouldn't start with a Griz, but maybe an older Delta or Powermatic...As for metal shavings in the wood, that isn't an issue...Worst case, you clean the tires if any metal becomes embedded.
Bob ==
Thanks for the pics. That's a beautiful bandsaw - big and variable speed to boot! I think those are few and far between.

Shhhhh! If you don't mind, just whisper why you recommend against a Grizzly bandsaw, particularly the 19" heavy duty model. I like Grizzly generally, but buy whatever works well and represents a good value.

[Bob Aquino]

Bob ==
Thanks for the pics. That's a beautiful bandsaw - big and variable speed to boot! I think those are few and far between.

Shhhhh! If you don't mind, just whisper why you recommend against a Grizzly bandsaw, particularly the 19" heavy duty model. I like Grizzly generally, but buy whatever works well and represents a good value.

Tom
<whisper mode on >I've owned some Griz equpment and also a Taiwanese Delta 18" saw. They are decent machines in their own right. But the reason I say to look at some of the older american equipment is that it is pretty much the bargain of the day. These big old saws are going for a fraction of what they cost new and the ones with 3 phase motors are going for even less. The 20" Delta and Powermatic saws were upwards of 3-4 grand new and can be had for well under a grand and in some cases under 500 depending on condition. One of the mods here picked up an Oliver not too long ago as well. You can find them and if you are willing to travel a bit, I'll bet within 6 months you will have what you want. As long as they are complete and nothing is damaged, most of what you look at replacing are bearings, belts and tires. If you want it pretty you can strip and paint it too. What you end up with is an industrial grade machine that you know inside out and if you ever go to sell it, you will probably get all your money back since it won't depreciate. My saw weighs over 800 lbs, I doubt even the 19" griz weighs in at half that.

As far as 3 phase and VFD's go, I think there are three machines that benefit from having variable speed. Bandsaws are one for the reasons you already know, Drill press and Lathes are the other. I would amost go out of my way to find an older machine with a 3 phase motor since it is easy to make it VS with the addition of a VFD. And 3 phase motors are simple, there are no brushes to mess with, worst case you may have to put new bearings in.
<whisper mode off>

[Tom Overthere]

Here are some pictures of my VFD-driven band saw. The VFD is a WEG band (rather than Toshiba) and does a great job of controlling band saw speed (or reversing it, if needed)

John ==
Thanks a lot for posting the pictures, and posting the specs plate/label was most considerate of you. Dang! With that riser block installed, it looks like you get about 27" of resawing height!

What an elegant, simple and useful tool you now have. Mounting the VFD as you have seems like a really smart approach for several reasons.

I searched WEG and found the mfr, but so far, no dealers. I'm hoping to find a VFD with as good a reputation as Hitachi, but at a lower price. I see you mention Toshiba. Why'd you choose WEG over the Toshiba?

In the process, I also "discovered" the TECO brand which appears to cost considerably less than comparable Hitachi models. Yeah, but what about quality/reliability/longevity...

Search engines are powerful.
Search engines are confusing. :D

[Tom Overthere]

<whisper mode on >...the older american equipment is pretty much the bargain of the day...You can find them and if you are willing to travel a bit, I'll bet within 6 months you will have what you want. <whisper mode off>
(whisper) Excellent point. I've been looking for a good used bandsaw locally for a while, but must admit I'm not in "the auction loop". Looks like I'll have to get serious.


<whisper mode on > As long as they are complete and nothing is damaged, most of what you look at replacing are bearings, belts and tires. <whisper mode off>
(whisper) I looked at several great old ones locally that were missing parts. That broke the deal for me as I'm not into tool restoration. I just want to USE them. I'm having no luck at all finding tool rest or tailstock for a Powermatic 45 lathe right now, so I'm reluctant to buy anything that might involve scarce parts.


<whisper mode on > My saw weighs over 800 lbs, I doubt even the 19" griz weighs in at half that. <whisper mode off>
(whisper) I may be relocating soon, so for me, the lighter weight is preferable - so long as light weight doesn't negatively affect function.


<whisper mode on >As far as 3 phase and VFD's go, I think there are three machines that benefit from having variable speed. Bandsaws...Drill press and Lathes <whisper mode off>
(whisper) Agreed. Hadn't considered VSing a drill press, but the motors are typically small in terms of HP, so a VFD wouldn't cost too much. And I really DO hate changing belts on DP pulleys. Another plan hatches...:rolleyes:


<whisper mode on >I would amost go out of my way to find an older machine with a 3 phase motor since it is easy to make it VS with the addition of a VFD. And 3 phase motors are simple, there are no brushes to mess with, worst case you may have to put new bearings in.<whisper mode off>
(whisper) I have no experience with 3-phase and didn't know 3ph motors were any different from 1-phase motors. Thanks.