Anyone Remember When...

[David DeCristoforo]

...tools used to look like this?

117577

117579

117578

I do.....

[harry strasil]

Yup, But, being a Galoot, I never had any.

[Doug Mason]

I don't!

I've grown up in the age of plastic--everything is plastic. Additionally, this coincides with my never having been able to walk into the local hardware store where 3/4 of the stuff isn't throwaway junk.

[phil harold]

I still use my pc100
best little router yet

[mike holden]

Yep,
The top one was the first router I had ever seen.
Was given one, with a carbide bit, to trim a 1/2 inch thick aluminum overlay back to the plastic form. Did it inside an air booth while wearing a tyvek jumpsuit, hood, and other safety gear.
No instruction, no information about climb cutting, just: "Use this"
A different time to be sure!
Still have one of the bits that I mangled (we didnt throw away *ANY* bit of carbide - we could use it to make scrapers out of!)

Yeah, first exposure to routers and no wood involved.

It would be twenty years before I used one again.
Mike

[John Callahan]

Still the best routers ever made imho- light, simple, rugged, and well balanced. You can add the 310 to the list too. The older PC tools were some of best and I think in many ways better than what's out there now. When my bank account is a little more flush I plan on going eBayin' for a 126 planer and a 503/504 belt sander. "New and improved" isn't always the case.

[Ed Labadie]

Barely. :o

I wasn't allowed to use them though.

Some of my dads first Milwaukee tools were all metal, the old right angle drill will still twist your arm up like a pretzel, just like it did when new. :eek:

Ed

[Jim Kountz]

I never had any of them but my Grandfather sure did. He was all Delta/Rockwell. The whole shop!!

PS: I love that D handle Rockwell, Id display that thing as art in my house!!

[Don Selke]

I sure do, I still have a old Craftsman electric 1/4 spade drill made out of aluminum which still works like a dream. It was purchased by my grandfather many years ago. The only thing I replaced was brushes (remember them?) and the switch. They don't make them like that any more, especially Craftsman. Now PC has gone down the tube. They call that progress I guess.:(

[Bill Huber]

Yes and I also remember getting shocked off of them also.

They were neat looking tools and would last forever.

[Greg Hines, MD]

I am pretty sure that that PC 100 was the prototype for the Daleks on Doctor Who.

Doc

[David DeCristoforo]

"Yes and I also remember getting shocked off of them also."

Really? Funny, I never got shocked except when looking at prices! But that's one of the biggest rationalizations for making plastic tools. In fact it's a euphemism...

"Double Insulated" = Made of plastic.....

Come on....

[David DeCristoforo]

"...PC 100 was the prototype for the Daleks..."

Humm... yes... also for R2D2....

[Don Selke]

Hey Dave:
Remember the days when you use to repair your power tools, automobiles, washer and dryers etc. Now you buy them, when the battery goes dead, you throw them in the trash! I guess I am showing my age!!!;)

[Karl Brogger]

*sigh*
The sad truth of the matter is that the vast majority of people just aren't willing to pay for quality. If it would last 10 times as long, why would you bother paying a bit more? Who was it that made the comment on the 504 thread that "who would pay $1200 for a belt sander"? That would be those in the know. I finally just picked up one of the industrial PC 310 laminate trimmer, why I ever bother with the others it a total mystery to me, and a valuable lesson re-learned.

Its like boots, there shouldn't even be a market for anything that cost less than $100, but yet people buy $30 "work boots" at the local Sprawl-Mart and wonder why their feet hurt, when schmucks like me spend $3-400 for a pair of boots and they last years, not months. Oh and my feet don't hurt.

DeWalt produces some of the most worthless crap across the board. Yet they manage to thrive and gobble up a decent companies like Porter Cable and Emglo, and in doing so they turn quality products into second rate garbage. Its slightly heartbreaking.


"Remember, its not as good, and it cost a bit more" - George Carlin

[David DeCristoforo]

"...who would pay $1200 for a belt sander?"...

Me. I did. And I still have it. It still works. Use it constantly. Bought it in '82. Let's see, that's 27 years ago. But when I bought mine it was "only" $800 Works out to about thirty bucks a year. FWIW, it still has the original brushes and switch.

[Bill Houghton]

Three PC 100s (two need repair, alas)
Two 690s

[James Carmichael]

Yes, I can, my dad still has some. Come to think, I do too, since picking up a DeWalt MB RAS at the flea market.

I also remember summer framing jobs cutting stock for bucks & headers with a metal circ saw, and driving the 10d nails with a 22oz framing hammer. We were amazed when the boss showed up one day with a nail gun. After about 2 days, he decided it was too expensive to use, and that we just needed to swing our hammers faster:-)

[Eric Gustafson]

But when I bought mine it was "only" $800 Works out to about thirty bucks a year.


800 bucks in 1982 dollars! :eek: All of a sudden mY Festool loot seems cheap!

[David DeCristoforo]

"All of a sudden my Festool loot seems cheap!"

Well whoever said quality came cheap? Is there any plastic on that Festool stuff?

[george wilson]

I have a minty little 1/4 h.p. round top Stanley router,and its big 1 hp brother. I've also bought several old aluminum power tools off of ebay. I love metal power tools,especially pre 1960's ones. They started to get angular then.

[Tom Leasure]

Be careful, you guy's are showing your age :D:D:D

[David DeCristoforo]

"...you guy's are showing your age..."

Eh? What's that you say sonny boy? Hey? Speak up....

[Joe Jensen]

I completely agree. Here are pics of two of my favorites. One is the precursor to the PC100, the Rockwell 100. The other is the heavier industrial version of the PC 690, a PC 536. I've had a both since the late 80s. I just bought a used PC536 that I am having rebuilt with new bearings, brushes, and cord. Between the purchase price with shipping, and the Dewalt service center flat rate, I'll have $180 in it. I'd put it up against all comers in the under $200 price range.

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Routers/IMG_1973.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/Routers/IMG_1972.jpg

[Tom Leasure]

OK OK, have to confess to the age issue - I was with my Dad when he purchased the exact router ( 8 years old ) as well as a saber saw - unfortunenatley Dad's gone but I still both tools & they still work fine & have never has to be serviced !!! I wonder if all this plastic tools will last as long :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Dan Friedrichs]

I don't understand all this lamenting the "loss" of this "all metal" "quality" - do you feel that there are no longer good quality tools available for retail purchase? I'd argue that any tool of a certain green variety would probably be more accurate, cleaner, quieter, MUCH safer, and likely to last as long.

Double-insulation is actually quite important. Simple example: you're using your all-metal drill when the bit binds, spinning the drill itself around, tearing the cord out of the end, and touching the torn wires to the all-metal case. I had that happen to me once, and I won't ever use a non-double-insulated tool again.

It's clearly wrong to compare borg-grade tools to your vintage ones. But that's because there weren't borg-grade tools available for sale when your vintage ones were made. Today, the market has expanded, and tools of essentially any quality you want are freely available for purchase - it's NOT that ALL the tools have become junk.

Besides, there is good value in cheap tools. If I had to pay 1960's-equivalent-dollars for all my tools, I simply couldn't afford to be in woodworking. Sure, maybe the tool would last much longer than something I'd get today, but that doesn't help if I can never afford it in the first place.

[Bill Houghton]

It's clearly wrong to compare borg-grade tools to your vintage ones. But that's because there weren't borg-grade tools available for sale when your vintage ones were made.

Sure there were. Some of them are now gone, but I've got some "utility" (meaning: borg grade) electric drills still going strong with their plain bearings 50+ years after they were built. Not so sure that's true of the current "utility" tools.

[Peter Quinn]

*sigh*
The sad truth of the matter is that the vast majority of people just aren't willing to pay for quality. If it would last 10 times as long, why would you bother paying a bit more? Who was it that made the comment on the 504 thread that "who would pay $1200 for a belt sander"? That would be those in the know.

That would be me Karl. Still looking for a good answer to that one. i hate belt sanders. I hate $250 belt sanders, don't imagine I'd like a $1200 belt sander any more. I'll jump through a lot of hoops to avoid using one. That doesn't mean I don't like quality tools, and I certainly appreciate vintage ones. I did a small door job last year in trade for an old PC porta plane, I hauled a #900 DeWalt industrial RAS basket case back from a cellar in NYC in the trunk of my wife's compact car and spent months putting it back together, and I use my grandfathers Miller Falls low speed right angle drill pretty regular. Anybody remember Miller Falls tools? Makes Rockwell/PC look like Johnny come lately. Made so well, nobody every bough the same tool twice. I'm the third generation to use this drill, wouldn't trade it for any POS on the shelf at the borg at any price. Looks like David's router with a D handle in back, a trigger handle, and a female thread to accept a piece of 3/4" iron pipe sized to suit the cutter you are trying to control. Hold on to that one with both hands and your strongest leg!

I don't know how we got to the point of disposable hand tools for $200 at a clip. Blame the buyers? Blame the sellers? Blame the manufacturers? Blame society? Blame that guy in the Graduate that exclaimed "The future is in plastics my boy!"? I don't mind the housings being made of plastic frankly, its a pretty tough material all in all. Its when they started using too much plastic on the inside that things turned to crap!

[Bruce Page]

My dad had the middle one, or one very much like it back in the 50’s
I never got to play with it before he sold it.

[Mike Henderson]

I'm always amazed at people who claim that things were so much better 20, 30, 50 or even 100 years ago. I've been hearing this all my life.

Personally, I find that things get better with time - that is, things are better today than they ever were. My favorite example is the automobile but it applies to just about everything.

Maybe it's all in your view of life.

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

You might be right Mike. But I'll take a 1940 Ford 2 door sedan or a 62 TR3 over anything I could buy new today!

[Mike Henderson]

You might be right Mike. But I'll take a 1940 Ford 2 door sedan or a 62 TR3 over anything I could buy new today!
As a hobby, I used to restore old cars. When people found out what I did, they'd say, "Man, they don't build them like they used to, do they?" And I'd reply "No, thank God. They build them a LOT better."

The other thing I came to realize in time - when you restore an old car, what you wind up with is an old car (and a lot less money).

Mike

[Bruce Wrenn]

I have three of the Rockwell / PC 100's. Also have two Rockwell 630's, the precusior to the 690, of which I have a dozen. Don't ask why - they were too good of a deal to pass up. I mean as when you pay $25 for a router that has a $40 bit in it.

[David DeCristoforo]

"No, thank God. They build them a LOT better."

"An opinion is a belief that may or may not be backed up with evidence...people may draw opposing opinions from the same facts."

"Preference (also called "taste" or "penchant") is a concept...(that)...assumes a real or imagined "choice" between alternatives..."

You may have a point when it comes to cars but you will never convince me that most "new" tools are better made. I spend too much time using these things to ever be able to go there. Most of the guys who have worked for me have not liked my big PC belt sander. So over the years I have bought many "newer" lighter weight "double insulated" sanders. They last a few years and then they are "toast". My "old" PC 1/2 sheet and 1/4 sheet sanders are still going strong after many many years of hard use. In that same time I have lost count of the number of DeWalt and Makita and other brands of sanders I have worn out. No the old sanders are not RO. Nor do they have "hook and loop" pads. But they have outlived many newer tools.

PS FWIW, I am a huge fan of new technology. I just don't like poor quality. AFAIC, recent "American" branded tools are of embarasingly poor quality and so is most of the imported stuff.

[Karl Brogger]

I will say that cars are better, but so has the products that go into them. Oil/lubricants for one is light years ahead of what it was in the 50's, same with filter systems. Tolerances in machining I think have gotten far more consistant too. Not too many cars back then made it to the 100k mile mark, much less like some of the Japanese imports which may be cheesy and cheap feeling, but they manage to get some rediculous high miles with bare minimum maintence. Heck my brothers got a beater Honda Accord with 290,000 miles on it! As far as looks go, well..... My favorite pickup of all time was the 73' chev's. Still a good looking pickup.


PS FWIW, I am a huge fan of new technology. I just don't like poor quality. AFAIC, recent "American" branded tools are of embarasingly poor quality and so is most of the imported stuff.

These are my sentiments exactly. I don't mind paying a premium for a premium tool.

[Terry Achey]

I'm with Mike 100%. The engineering today is far superior to a quarter or half century ago. Especially automobile engines, suspensions, and yes bodies with, dare I say... plastic components!:eek: In many ways plastics (or similar composite materials) get a bad rap as being cheap or inferior to steel. Fact is that in many cases they make our tools lighter, insulate us from shock hazards, allow for less expensive manufacturing, provide a better gripping tension than steel, and so on.

I enjoy the nostalgia of tools and other classic products from yesteryear. But frankly the "good Ol' days" weren't always that great. Just think.... some day today will be the good Ol' days ;).

Oh yeah, I'm thankful for the three prong grounding plug, too. Anyone remember that slight tickle of electricity when gripping some metal two prong power tools ? Yikes!

Thanks for sharing, David.

Terry

[Wilbur Pan]

I do agree that in many cases for tools that "They don't build them like they used to." That's one reason I've tended to acquire OWWM for my shop.

On the other hand, there was a time that camera aficionados decried the use of plastics in cameras, and felt that a "real" camera should only be made with metal parts. Over time, the plastic parts, used judiciously, resulted in cameras that were lighter and had stronger bodies. The metal vs. plastic argument has pretty much fallen by the wayside for cameras, so I don't think it's the use of plastic per se that leads to a decrease in tool quality.

Earlier in this thread, Festool routers were alluded to as a current "plastic" tool of high quality. There are a lot of arguments about Festool, but one thing that never seems to come up are comments like, "They last a few years and then they are "toast"." Does anyone have any experience re: Festool products and longevity?

[george wilson]

I well remember trying to keep my 1950 and later,a 1952 Chevy going. I do think they build them better these days,but the thin sheetmetal and plastic bumpers certainly aren't good for much. We had slower speed accidents where bumpers clanged,but no harm done. Cars rusted quicker because their paints and sealers weren't as good,or as thoroughly applied. I liked the old cars not having computers all over them,so I could do my own repair work,and even engine changes when I was in college. Oh,and windows turned white around the edges,too. It was a big deal to get 100,000 miles out of a car. I collect old Popular mechanics magazines,and recently read an article from the early 40's on how to get your car to go 50,000 miles.

As for the old aluminum tools,I love them,and just keep my feet dry. I recently bought a great Porter Cable skill type saw off ebay. That thing is a BEAST. It is VERY heavy. I wouldn't mind using it in my shop,but it would be a bear to haul up ladders. It is from the 30's.

[Bob Aquino]

As a hobby, I used to restore old cars. When people found out what I did, they'd say, "Man, they don't build them like they used to, do they?" And I'd reply "No, thank God. They build them a LOT better."

The other thing I came to realize in time - when you restore an old car, what you wind up with is an old car (and a lot less money).

Mike


Comparing cars and tools is a poor analogy when it comes to what is "better", especially if you look at the larger machine tools. Cars have benefitted mostly from advanced technology in electronics and safety where it's not so much the case with tools. Comparing old stationary power tools to new ones is where I think you will still see quite a qualitative difference. Most of the tools that people are buying new today are coming from offshore vs. the OWWM from 20+ years ago that were made here. The older machinery was built to industrial standards, the new stuff is made for folks using it for hobby purposes. Case in point, I have a Rockwell VS drill press that I am currently working on that is about 30 years old. New it would have been around 3k. Its worth 4-500 in very good shape. Now compare it to something new in that price range. You wont find anything built here, it would be too expensive for most folks pocketbooks. The quality of the parts such as bearings, motors, castings doesn't compare. Most folks wont care, but they are not using the machine day in and day out either.

One thing about old cars though, you could fix them for most of what went wrong. New points, plugs, rebuild the carb. Can't do that today, need to plug the car into a machine to diagnose, best you can hope to do is swap out components to fix it. Is that better? Maybe, maybe not.

[Clifford Mescher]

Comparing cars and tools is a poor analogy when it comes to what is "better", especially if you look at the larger machine tools. Cars have benefitted mostly from advanced technology in electronics and safety where it's not so much the case with tools. Comparing old stationary power tools to new ones is where I think you will still see quite a qualitative difference. Most of the tools that people are buying new today are coming from offshore vs. the OWWM from 20+ years ago that were made here. The older machinery was built to industrial standards, the new stuff is made for folks using it for hobby purposes. Case in point, I have a Rockwell VS drill press that I am currently working on that is about 30 years old. New it would have been around 3k. Its worth 4-500 in very good shape. Now compare it to something new in that price range. You wont find anything built here, it would be too expensive for most folks pocketbooks. The quality of the parts such as bearings, motors, castings doesn't compare. Most folks wont care, but they are not using the machine day in and day out either.

One thing about old cars though, you could fix them for most of what went wrong. New points, plugs, rebuild the carb. Can't do that today, need to plug the car into a machine to diagnose, best you can hope to do is swap out components to fix it. Is that better? Maybe, maybe not.
Nostalgia can be a selective thing. Sure, cars were easier to work on but it seemed like we had to spend alot of time doing "maintenance" to keep them on the road. And what about tires? It was a common thing to see people changing tires on the side of the street. Most cars today get 100,000 miles before you have to touch them. Clifford.

[Rod Sheridan]

As David and others have indicated, older tools cost far more money than most people are willing to pay now.

I recently sold a General 130 planer for the same number of dollars I paid for it many years ago.

The difference was that many years ago that sum of money was 3 times the percentage of my present annual income.

How many people today fork out $4,000 for a 14 inch stationary planer for a hobby shop?

Modern machinery of comparable present cost is as well made as the old stuff, however there aren't a lot of people purchasing a Felder or SCMI jointer, or a General 12 inch jointer for their hobby shop.

The Wally Mart outlook has become prevelant, however we've dropped quality for quantity.

I have an old Black and Decker Heavy Duty 3/8" Drill, from 1946, that was my Father's. It's about 350 RPM, AC/DC, has a D handle, a handle with the switch in it, and a removable pipe handle opposite the switch handle.

It's had more than a lifetime of drilling timbers, powering winches etc, and it still works great. It's had a number of chucks on it, however about 20 years ago it needed a new switch, which was still available.

It cost my Father a substantial number of hours wages, now B&D don't make anything of that quality, or price.

Modern machinery however often has more features, capability and performance than the old machinery.

Given the choice between an old industrial tablesaw and a Felder slider, I'd opt for the Felder. Modern materials, design and capabilities win out every time when comparing comparable value machinery.

Regards, Rod.

[John Coloccia]

I just picked up a new Bosch router (dedicated my old PC to my pin router setup). Everything on it is solid. That's not to say it wasn't surrounded by a bunch of junk, but you can still buy quality, sometimes even at HD or Lowes if you look hard enough.

I always feel like I spend too much on tools. On the other hand, I rarely have to buy anything twice. I buy it once, and it lasts forever. There are still great tools out there, but very few are willing to pay for quality. People changed, not the tools. 30 years ago, you'd start saving up a couple of years ahead of time to make a major tool purchase.

These days it's "I want it. Let's see how much I can afford right this second.", and they buy junk. Then you hear complaints about how they don't make them like they used to. Hogwash. All the quality tools I have now are WAY better than the junk I grew up with, and FAR cheaper when you compare 1980 dollars, for example, with 2009 dollars....but even that is too expensive when you absolutely must have it now.

I will say that following brands is becoming very hit or miss for me these days. I was a Porter Cable man for a long time. Now I'm Hitachi for drills, Bosch for routers, Dewalt for chop saws etc etc. I've found that all the brands have some seriously great tools, and also make some serious garbage you couldn't pay me to own. That's changed. You can't count on the brand anymore, and that's a shame.

[David DeCristoforo]

Well, I really didn't intend to start anything serious. I was just thinking. You know, there's been some good points made in this thread. Like how technology has improved. And it's true. But anyone who ever had a chance to ride in a '47 Chevy 2 door, stretched out in those roomy sofas they had for seats or sitting behind that big wheel would be hard pressed not to feel some sense of loss. The newer cars may be safer, lighter, more efficient, more whatever and yet, undeniably, something has been lost. You rapped your knuckles on that old Chevy, you got banged knuckles. You rap your knuckles on a new car, you gotta take it to the body shop where they tell you it's gonna cost eighteen hundred to replace the fender. It's not that I don't want to see "progress" or that I want to go back to the stone age. I just feel like some things of real value have slipped away.

[Larry Edgerton]

David, I have at least one of all the routers in the original post, including the one that turns into a door plane and has the sharpening jig. I have the first router that I ever bought new, a PC 1 1/2hp that is sounding a bit loose, but then its been in use 28 years. ;)

I know where there is a perfect old Speedmatic 7 1/4" saw, rebuilt and polished to perfection, Even has gold plating on a couple of parts,for $185. I was hoping Karl would buy it so I was no longer tempted. The switch went out of mine and is no longer available, another thing we can curse Dewalt/Black and Decker for. When they bought PC, they quit making new parts for old tools.

I am glad I learned the trade when I did, when quality was more important than quantity, when a mans word was worth something, deals could be made with a handshake, and being a craftsman was being an important part of the community. I just caught the tail end of all that, and that is sad in itself, but at least I experianced it.

At least this suburban crafts revival is getting some hand tools brought back from the edge of extinction with the help of companys like Leigh Neilson, Lee Valley and others. Leigh Neilson just made drawing of an old tool I have that I hope they recreate so that more can use it.

Maybe eventually the small electric tools will go through a similar quality revival, once the borg die out from thier own preditory behaviors?

Until then, I will be snatching up these great old tools, so quit bidding against me! ;)

[John Lohmann]

Don't forget the electrical systems on British cars!

[pat warner]

This one (http://patwarner.com/images/bd442.jpg)still runs, single speed, 1/4", cast fan, original switch.

[John Callahan]

"No, thank God. They build them a LOT better."

With automobiles I could agree Mike, but with tools I'll politely disagree. A couple old school engineers I knew mentioned the K.I.S.S. rule. ....... "keep it simple stupid". To me many of the newer generation of tools seem to have been designed by marketing guys- "if you can't dazzle 'em with briliance, baffle 'em with b.s." Start adding VS, more power, spindle lock etc, etc to a router and you start compromising weight and balance (not to mention reliability), the last things I'd think you'd want to do in a hand held tool. Seems like they're selling the sizzle instead of the steak. Better? ........ not for me. I've tried an PC 890- to me it felt like a motorized baseball bat and about as well balanced; I won't part with my Model 100's and 690 anytime soon. Karl mentioned the PC310 and it reminded me of where I worked last fall. In the laminating dept. they had a bunch of Bosch Colts; the "Red Green" edition :rolleyes:- they had a fair amount of duct tape on them. They fared poorly in a production environment and they got rid of them. All those "features" did them no good.

[Mike Henderson]

I spent my working life building products. We were constantly working with customers (and potential customers) to find out what they wanted so we could build it.

Companies who make tools do the same. They talk to their customers to find out what they like and don't like about the available tools and they incorporate those features or changes into the next generation.

They make tools with new features that the customers didn't ask for and they take them to users and ask them to try the tool and give them feedback. The features that the customers like get put into the next generation tools.

They look at what's selling - both of their products and the competition - and they ask the buyers why they chose that particular product. Then they make more like that.

The products of today exist because users asked for the features that are in them. You may or may not like those particular features, and that's why we have so many different models and brands (at different price levels), so you can find a tool that meets your needs.

Overall, I think the tool companies do a great job. We have an "embarrassment of riches" to choose from.

Mike

[Peter Quinn]

You know its funny, I use a Bosch colt in my home shop and PC 310's at work. I really like the Colt better for most things, but I doubt it would last a month at work. The 310's are verging on old at this point and they still run great. A guy offered to sell me his personal 310 pretty cheap (barely been used in 15 years), and I may just buy it, but I suspect I'll continue to reach for the colt first every time.

We also use Bosch 1617 routers as the main mid sized weapon, must have four or five in service, and a PILE in a box for parts. These things just don't last at work. They don't like getting dropped, they don't like getting bumped, they don't like getting put to bed dirty. Not sure any router made today would actually survive the abuse it would see. Funny thing how tools get treated when they are not the property of the user. I treat the tools like I own them personally, but I can tell you not everyone does.

To people who find the new tools don't last like the old ones, do you find its normal wear that is taking them down, or abuse?

[Steve Garrison]

I think that with just about everything you get what you pay for. I prefer to buy corded tools over battery powered so I don't have to worry about it dying. I've got a Rockwell lathe and a DeWalt RAS both from the early 70's that I got a good deal on and I still use them today.

Here is a picture of a VERY old Black and Decker electric drill a friend of mine gave to me. It has a 1/4" chuck and the plate riveted to the side says 2000 rpm. There are 3 patent dates on it from 1917 to 1924. It still runs, but I am afraid of it shocking me. Is this the Grand daddy of all electric drills? My grandfather was just a kid when this tool was new.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww94/SteveGarrison/BDleft.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww94/SteveGarrison/BDleft.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

[David DeCristoforo]

"We have an "embarrassment of riches" to choose from."

You mean all those tools that look like athletic shoes? Or maybe you are referring to that big Hitachi chop saw I saw at Costco the other day. More cheesy plastic clunk than a Star Wars toy. Oh but wait.... it had a laser light line projector! Can't imagine how anyone ever got any wood cut before we had those.... You want that stuff... you go for it. I'll stick with my "tried and true, thanks.

[Rick Fisher]

Well, I am in the building supply business. I was walking by the counter, just today.. there was a young couple in the tool isle.

So I stopped and asked them if they needed a hand.

They wanted a ROS.. to re-finish a desk that one of their parents had given them.

I explained to them that it could be veneered and they should be very careful. they insisted it was solid ..

I showed went over the Hitachi and Makita with them.. priced reasonable.. They bought a Skil because it was cheaper...

So Skil made a buck on that deal, Hitachi and Makita didnt.. because they where more expensive..

That is the problem, but these folks are young and broke, re-finishing one desk.. 40 years ago, they would never have purchased a sander for one desk.

[Chip Lindley]

I think David's point is to educate younger woodworkers to the fact that *several* decades ago, hand-held power tools were all-metal and made to LAST!

A Rockwell 100 router was the first REAL router I purchased (at a flea market for $50), after suffering along with really POOR Crapsman routers during the early 80s. C'man collets were machined into the motor shaft, and the motor vibrated rediculously. Once I discovered Rockwell and then Porter-Cable, I never looked back!

SEARS was the BORG in the 70s and 80s, producing crappy, consumer-grade tools which many, in their ignorance, mistook for Quality Stuff! The better quality stuff was the *Commercial* line. Today it seems we are coming full-circle, as P-C is now cheapening its line down to *consumer-grade*! At least I can (and DO) buy OLD/USED if I need to!

[Stephen Edwards]

I have my Daddy's late 40s or early 50s worm drive Skilsaw. I had almost forgotten! He bought it just before he retired. It's been used very little. In fact, I don't ever remember seeing him use it except for one time. I was born in 1950. Daddy retired when I was six years old. He remained active, still building small projects such as chicken coops, out buildings, etc. until just a few months before his death in 1977. For some reason he preferred using handsaws.

The one time that I remember seeing him use that old Skilsaw was around 1960. A neighbor decided to build a new house. He hired my daddy to "cut the framing". It was a typical 3 bedroom, two bath, ranch house with a hip roof, attached car port and brick veneered. The thing that I remember and was so impressed with was how he did that job. His tools were the blueprint, a tape measure, a framing square, a six foot folding ruler, a bevel square and that Skilsaw. I was his helper, meaning my presence was tolerated 'cause I was too small to handle big boards and too hyperactive to be much help! Over a period of a few days he sawed all the framing for that house from the foundation up to the ridge and all of the rafters for the hip roof. When the building crew arrived the whole shoot and shebang was stacked in piles, numbered and went together like a puzzle. Lord knows, I wish that I'd have had enough sense back then and in the following several years to have learned even half of what he knew about a framing square.

A few years ago I had the cord replaced because it was dry rotted. The last time I used it, a long time ago, it purred like a Singer sewing machine. Thanks for the reminder, David! I'll have to dig that jewel out of storage and give it another good cleaning. It's sitting in it's original steel carrying case.

The one thing that I didn't like about that saw was that the blade guard doesn't have any kind of handle on it at all. I suppose if I were going to use it much I could rig a handle of some kind. On the other hand, perhaps I’ll just leave it “as is”.

[Karl Brogger]

That's one that I don't care if it comes back. I much preffer plastic cases for tools over the metal ones. When things going sliding around in the back of the pickup I think they do alot less damage to one another when enclosed in plastic.

[Mike Henderson]

I think that with just about everything you get what you pay for. I prefer to buy corded tools over battery powered so I don't have to worry about it dying. I've got a Rockwell lathe and a DeWalt RAS both from the early 70's that I got a good deal on and I still use them today.

Here is a picture of a VERY old Black and Decker electric drill a friend of mine gave to me. It has a 1/4" chuck and the plate riveted to the side says 2000 rpm. There are 3 patent dates on it from 1917 to 1924. It still runs, but I am afraid of it shocking me. Is this the Grand daddy of all electric drills? My grandfather was just a kid when this tool was new.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww94/SteveGarrison/BDleft.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i709.photobucket.com/albums/ww94/SteveGarrison/BDleft.jpg%5B/IMG%5D

As long as you plug the drill into a GFCI outlet, you'll be safe. I wouldn't want to use it in a non-protected outlet, however.

Mike

PS your pictures didn't show up.

[Steve Garrison]

Let me try this again...

[Mike Henderson]

"We have an "embarrassment of riches" to choose from."

You mean all those tools that look like athletic shoes? Or maybe you are referring to that big Hitachi chop saw I saw at Costco the other day. More cheesy plastic clunk than a Star Wars toy. Oh but wait.... it had a laser light line projector! Can't imagine how anyone ever got any wood cut before we had those.... You want that stuff... you go for it. I'll stick with my "tried and true, thanks.

I guess it all depends on how you look at it. I look at it something like cell phones. A cell phone will last you a long time... But long before it dies a natural death, the engineers will have come out with new phones that have so many new features and functions that you'll upgrade (including greatly extended battery life).

I look at tools the same way. Those old tools were heavy - their power to weight ratio was much lower than modern tools. Modern tools have variable speed, and many other features, including safety features. Battery operated tools are a God-send to me. It's so much easier to grab a tool and use it than it is to mess with wires. I don't own any but many people speak highly of the quality and features of Festool and Fein if you find the common brands to be of unacceptable quality.

You can choose to live in the past if you want but I think the present is better.

Mike

[When I was a boy, a workman was working under a house nearby. He was lying on his back on the ground drilling upward. The ground was damp. His drill shorted and he was killed. That wouldn't happen with modern tools.]

[David DeCristoforo]

"You can choose to live in the past if you want but I think the present is better."

Cheap crap is cheap crap no matter what the year.

[Gene Howe]

"You can choose to live in the past if you want but I think the present is better."

Cheap crap is cheap crap no matter what the year.

I couldn't agree more!
You'd think that with all the folks lamenting the demise of "quality" tools and expressing their willingness to pay for same, that somebody would take the bull by the horns and start producing a line of tools that could meet that pent up demand. Simpson (Rigid) comes to mind. I'll bet that with just a few changes, they could produce even better tools, than they do today.
I know that I'd buy another saw of the quality of my Skil worm drive or any of my older PC routers and drill motors. My Shopsmith is 35 years old, a very well designed and built tool. But today, you'll have to dig deep in your purse to pay for one. However, if I had the same needs today, that I had back then, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it....even at today's prices.

[Joe Jensen]

I spent my working life building products. We were constantly working with customers (and potential customers) to find out what they wanted so we could build it.

Companies who make tools do the same. They talk to their customers to find out what they like and don't like about the available tools and they incorporate those features or changes into the next generation.

They make tools with new features that the customers didn't ask for and they take them to users and ask them to try the tool and give them feedback. The features that the customers like get put into the next generation tools.

They look at what's selling - both of their products and the competition - and they ask the buyers why they chose that particular product. Then they make more like that.

The products of today exist because users asked for the features that are in them. You may or may not like those particular features, and that's why we have so many different models and brands (at different price levels), so you can find a tool that meets your needs.

Overall, I think the tool companies do a great job. We have an "embarrassment of riches" to choose from.

Mike

Mike, I totally agree. Sadly, the tool buyers keep asking for cheaper, so that's what we get. The consumers buy what's cheapest, and the companies who used to build quality now build to price point.

Think about Sears Craftsman power tools. I'm 47 now. I used to nearly memorize the Sears tool catalog starting when I was about 10. For the most part, Sears has the same price points today as they did 37 years ago. If you consider inflation, a Sears router would be $400, but alas it's $100 today, same as in 1972. Moving to China helps some, but much of the savings came from using cheaper materials and loose specs. Sears isn't the only one, nearly everyone has done this, IN RESPONSE TO WHAT BUYERS WANT, PRICE.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, I totally agree. Sadly, the tool buyers keep asking for cheaper, so that's what we get. The consumers buy what's cheapest, and the companies who used to build quality now build to price point.

Think about Sears Craftsman power tools. I'm 47 now. I used to nearly memorize the Sears tool catalog starting when I was about 10. For the most part, Sears has the same price points today as they did 37 years ago. If you consider inflation, a Sears router would be $400, but alas it's $100 today, same as in 1972. Moving to China helps some, but much of the savings came from using cheaper materials and loose specs. Sears isn't the only one, nearly everyone has done this, IN RESPONSE TO WHAT BUYERS WANT, PRICE.
I agree with you but it seems as if people disagree with what's happened. Consumers are a very smart bunch and make wise purchase decisions. Tool buyers have needs and they reflect their needs in their purchases - and companies respond to the market signals that buyers send and make products that customers want.

Tool buyers are a diverse bunch - some are "Harry Homeowner" and just need a tool to do a project a couple of times a year - and some are production shops that need a product which will stand up to day-to-day work. I believe we have products that meet both ends of those needs, as well as needs intermediate to them.

There's no need to live in the past. We have tools today that span those market needs - from cheap tools for the casual user, to production level tools for those who need them and are willing to pay the price.

If those old tools were so great and in so much demand, companies would still be making them. Companies will do whatever the customer wants.

Mike

[David DeCristoforo]

"...some are "Harry Homeowner" and just need a tool to do a project a couple of times a year..."

Mike, I hope you don't think I'm just trying to argue for the sake of arguing and we may never see "eye to eye" on some aspects of this discussion. But I really feel that the person you refer to as "Harry Homeowner" (a term that I find to be somewhat condescending and derogatory) probably needs a better quality tool simply by virtue if his lack of experience. If this person goes and buys a cheap table saw that has a 1/16 of an inch of slop in the arbor and a fence that won't stay parallel or firmly clamped to the table and an out of square plastic miter gauge with a bar that's too small for the slot, do you think he is going to be able to accomplish anything with it? A "pro" could even though he would probably have to do a lot of swearing but a novice who does not have the experience and/or knowledge to get a decent result out of such a "tool"?... I doubt it.

Let me relate a little story as an example. One time my brother in law was in my shop while I was routing some edge details. After watching me for a while, he commented that I "made it look so easy". "It is easy" I replied. "Not for me" he said. Then he told me how he always ended up with a lot of tearout and roughness and splintered edges or burned edges but never the smooth clean details I was producing. So I handed him my router and told him to do an edge so I could see what he was doing wrong. But he just routed the edge with no problems. He actually looked puzzled and so I asked him what he had for a router. Turns out it was one of those swell plastic jems from Sears. He thought he was buying a quality tool because it was a Craftsman. Also he had those funky steel fixed pilot bits that come with the "set". So by buying this cheap, low quality tool he was set up for failure whereas if he had been working with a decent quality tool he would have not only gotten vastly better results, he would have been safer too. I told him "See, you're a better woodworker than you thought!"

[Ben Davis]

I well remember trying to keep my 1950 and later,a 1952 Chevy going. I do think they build them better these days,but the thin sheetmetal and plastic bumpers certainly aren't good for much. We had slower speed accidents where bumpers clanged,but no harm done. Cars rusted quicker because their paints and sealers weren't as good,or as thoroughly applied. I liked the old cars not having computers all over them,so I could do my own repair work,and even engine changes when I was in college. Oh,and windows turned white around the edges,too. It was a big deal to get 100,000 miles out of a car. I collect old Popular mechanics magazines,and recently read an article from the early 40's on how to get your car to go 50,000 miles.

As for the old aluminum tools,I love them,and just keep my feet dry. I recently bought a great Porter Cable skill type saw off ebay. That thing is a BEAST. It is VERY heavy. I wouldn't mind using it in my shop,but it would be a bear to haul up ladders. It is from the 30's.
I totally agree with you about the bumpers and rust.

A portion of all the plastic is the fault of federal regulations that were enacted in the early 70's. Somewhere around '73 manufactures were required to install these "safety devices" on all new cars. I'm certain similar things could be said today. I seriously doubt that any of the aluminum cased tools would pass UL endorsement. Some of the "cheap" look is a result of safety requirements, i.e. see-through blade guards.

Basically, it is what it is. If you like the old stuff, like me, then that's your bag. I like old cars because they actually have some character, unlike late model sedans. I like old tools because I feel some sense of nostalgia. I like old music because it speaks to me. I like old furniture because I appreciate the craftsmanship that was required to produce it. I like old literature because the use of prose is stimulating. I like old homes because they are a reflection of thoughtful architectural detail. Problem is, I'm only 28.

[Mike Henderson]

You could be absolutely correct, David. If so, the task would be to educate "Harry Homeowner" about spending more money to purchase a "better" tool.

The point I was making is that companies respond to the market and attempt to satisfy the needs of the customers. The company is ABSOLUTELY unable to change the purchase decision by the buyer. We (you , me, and the company who makes the tool) may all think that the buyer should purchase a different tool but if the buyer wants that particular tool, that's what they're going to buy. Any company who attempts to stand in the way of that freight train will just get run over.

But overall, I believe that most buyers make wise purchase decisions. Many research the options in the marketplace - they read reviews, they talk to friends, they examine the various tools at the store - and when they make the purchase, it's the best choice for them at that time. This is true for beginners as well as commercial buyers.

Our economic system (market) is pretty efficient - and buyers are plenty smart.

Mike

[And given an efficient market and smart buyers, the market will provide the tools that the buyers want and need. If buyers wanted tools with the characteristics of antiquated power tools, companies would make them.]

[Karl Brogger]

Our economic system (market) is pretty efficient - and buyers are plenty smart.

I completely disagree. Its a skewed market, and most consumers in this culture are plenty stupid. When 99% of the people go to buy something for a one time use, they will buy the cheapest product possible. The industrial grade stuff is gone. All of the good stuff has been dissolved because those of us who do this for a living are greatly out numbered by the average home owner or the hobbyist. In an commercial setting these modern cheaper power tools don't last, and aren't even worth repairing.

Sure, they didn't sell that many of the really good tools, but the market is there, its just not small. If its not worth it to them then I guess thats just another brick in the road of our disposable consumer culture.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Our economic system (market) is pretty efficient - and buyers are plenty smart."

Well right now you might have a hard time convincing anyone of that! Uhh, you have been reading (or watching) the news lately haven't you? Maybe I'm not the one living in the past here!

[Mike Henderson]

"Our economic system (market) is pretty efficient - and buyers are plenty smart."

Well right now you might have a hard time convincing anyone of that! Uhh, you have been reading (or watching) the news lately haven't you? Maybe I'm not the one living in the past here!
I didn't say it was perfect - I said it was efficient. And in any case, recessions are reactions to excesses in the marketplace. That's why they're called "corrections".

Our economic system is the best the world has been able to come up with so far. If you have some ideas for a better system, you should start proposing them.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

I completely disagree. Its a skewed market, and most consumers in this culture are plenty stupid.
Don't forget that you and I are consumers. To say that most consumers are plenty stupid reflects on all (both) of us.

Personally, I think I do a pretty good job choosing the things I want to buy. And most of the people I know also do a pretty good job.

Just because other people don't buy the same thing you would does not make them "stupid" - it just makes them different.

Mike

[I'm sure you know this but some companies focus on the commercial market and don't sell to consumers. It's called market segmentation.
And do you really think the rest of the world should change their buying preferences just because you don't like what they're buying?]

[Michael Weber]

My dad had all metal tools including an electric drill. Not sure of the manufacturer. As a small child I used it once and left in in the drain tub of my mothers washing machine where it got covered with water. Dad got it out of the tub to use, plugged it in and pulled the trigger. The shock was such that he could not let go of the drill. After a while he did manage to move far enough back to pull the plug out of the wall. I got a lecture about putting things back where I found them.

[David DeCristoforo]

OK this is my last comment on this subject but i personally think that our present economic problems (call them "corrections" if you prefer...just don't say that to the guy who just got "corrected" out of his job) began when we stopped being "people" and started being "the consumer". Spend a little time reflecting on the implications of that word. It's been an "educational" discussion.

[Mike Henderson]

OK this is my last comment on this subject but i personally think that our present economic problems (call them "corrections" if you prefer...just don't say that to the guy who just got "corrected" out of his job) began when we stopped being "people" and started being "the consumer". Spend a little time reflecting on the implications of that word. It's been an "educational" discussion.
Consumers are individuals, businesses, governments, etc. (although people act for these institutional consumers). To only use the term "people" could imply private buyers - the term consumer is just a bit more inclusive.

But in any case, I don't see how using a different word will make a whole lot of difference.

Mike

[Karl Brogger]

Just because other people don't buy the same thing you would does not make them "stupid" - it just makes them different.


Well when you, me, or anybody else spends their money on something doomed for the trash can in short order, that falls under the stupid category. I know, I've been stupid before, in fact I'm quite profecient at it.:D

[Mike Henderson]

Well when you, me, or anybody else spends their money on something doomed for the trash can in short order, that falls under the stupid category. I know, I've been stupid before, in fact I'm quite profecient at it.:D
Yep, we all make bad purchase decisions every now and again. But especially in today's world, the word gets out quickly (think about the postings you've seen here on SawMill Creek asking what's the best tool to buy) and that product quickly fades from the market.

I repeat my mantra - people are smart and the market is efficient. Companies who make products that meet the needs of the buyers succeed and those who don't fail.

Mike

[Mike Henderson]

If you're responding to one of my posts, Clifford, I'll never know it because I have you on my ignore list. All I see is that you posted but the message is hidden. Life is too short...

Mike

[Update: Moderators must have removed Clifford's message.]

[Ben Davis]

"Our economic system (market) is pretty efficient - and buyers are plenty smart."

Well right now you might have a hard time convincing anyone of that! Uhh, you have been reading (or watching) the news lately haven't you? Maybe I'm not the one living in the past here!


I didn't say it was perfect - I said it was efficient. And in any case, recessions are reactions to excesses in the marketplace. That's why they're called "corrections".

Our economic system is the best the world has been able to come up with so far. If you have some ideas for a better system, you should start proposing them.

Mike

You're right on the money Mike. Efficient doesn't mean fair, or honorable, or moral. It means efficient. That fella who was "corrected" out of his job was working for a company that was not as efficient as it needed to be to survive. "Nothing personal, just business."

The creation of big box stores has made what were once specialty products (think shop-size air compressors) available to a significantly larger number of people. The manufacturers could make larger profit margins by selling lower quality items at prices below what the commercial, and once the only available, grade products listed. Price wars slowly evolved and voila... here we are with a Porter Cable router that won't last a year in a cabinet shop.

Black and Decker is in the game to make money for their shareholders, not to make quality tools. Sad, but reality.

[Mike Henderson]

Black and Decker is in the game to make money for their shareholders, not to make quality tools. Sad, but reality.
I'll go one step further, Ben, and point out that the way B&D makes money for their shareholders is to make products that customers will buy.

So if you don't like the tools that are made today, you have to think of Pogo's line, "We have met the enemy and he is us."

But there are companies who focus on the upper end of the market - Lie-Nielsen, Hammer, and Festool are some that come to mind immediately. Each has a way of making money for their shareholders and we (as consumers) get to choose what we want to buy.

Mike

[I do take issue with your comment, "sad", though, Ben. The market is like an election. The voters are the buyers, and the buyers "elect" what products the companies will make. In other words, the buyers get the products they want. That's a whole lot better than some person, committee, government employee, etc. deciding what products and quality levels we can buy. (and I know there are government regulations on products, especially for safety.)]

[Ben Davis]

--- snip ---

But there are companies who focus on the upper end of the market - Lie-Nielsen, Hammer, and Festool are some that come to mind immediately. Each has a way of making money for their shareholders and we (as consumers) get to choose what we want to buy.

Mike

[I do take issue with your comment, "sad", though, Ben. The market is like an election. The voters are the buyers, and the buyers "elect" what products the companies will make. In other words, the buyers get the products they want. That's a whole lot better than some person, committee, government employee, etc. deciding what products and quality levels we can buy. (and I know there are government regulations on products, especially for safety.)]

We're on the same page. The sad part is not that we have witnessed the so called "race to the bottom" in terms of quality, but rather that there is a paucity of quality tools at a respectable price point. The companies you mentioned (LN, Festool) to my knowledge are privately owned, not publicly. Management at those companies is beholden only to itself. If they see fit to make a product more costly to produce and yields a lower profit, they have a much easier time convincing top management.

One will have a difficult time going to Wal-Mart, Lowes, HD, etc. and purchasing a "mid range" tool in their selection and expect it to be performing in 5 or even 10 years. Likewise, one would have a difficult time purchasing a LN No. 8 or a Festool OF1400 and not expect 5 years of service. The products are there, but in comparison to the availability of cheap tools, they are very scarce indeed. Thank goodness for the internet!

[Stephen Edwards]

One will have a difficult time going to Wal-Mart, Lowes, HD, etc. and purchasing a "mid range" tool in their selection and expect it to be performing in 5 or even 10 years. Likewise, one would have a difficult time purchasing a LN No. 8 or a Festool OF1400 and not expect 5 years of service. The products are there, but in comparison to the availability of cheap tools, they are very scarce indeed. Thank goodness for the internet!

Amen to being thankful for the internet! That certainly opens a much wider range of options for lots of us.

Personally, though I'm a free market advocate to the core, I don't agree that manufacturers are simply responding to what customers want. I think that in many cases marketing tools and techniques play on the ignorance of the buyers to convince them that blue widget #2702 is absolutely the best blue widget available and that they, the customer, simply must have that particular widget. Sure, it's the customer's decision to buy it or not. But buying it doesn't mean that they're smart or that they've made an intelligent choice. It simply means that they were convinced by marketing to buy that product.

To me, one of the most foolish but successful examples of marketing playing on the ignorance and or vanity of the buying public is athletic shoes. I am absolutely astonished that people will pay $300.00 for a pair of "sneakers" and then pay another $30-40 bucks for a T-Shirt with the manufacturer's logo on it, the manufacturer of the $300 sneakers! :confused::confused:

To each their own.............

[Mike Henderson]

You hit on an area that's a mystery to me - luxury goods. Why would someone pay so much money for a prestige watch when a much cheaper one will tell the time quite well? Why pay so much for a certain perfume when a lower priced one smells as sweet?

Even outside of luxury goods, why will people pay so much for a coke, which is nothing but carbonated water, sugar, and some flavoring?

If we assume the buyers are rational, they must get something out of it that makes it worth the money they pay.

Regarding marketing's ability to "fool" buyers, I worked in marketing and it's extremely difficult to fool any number of buyers. And word gets around pretty quick. I won't say it doesn't happen, but I think it's the exception rather than normal business. What marketers for some products try to do is create an image which they sell rather than the product. The message is that if you buy that product you'll be like the people in the advertisement.

When you get to the extremes in our market system, it gets much more difficult to understand the purchase behavior of consumers - at least it does for me. But tools aren't out at the extremes.

Mike

[John Callahan]

"What marketers for some products try to do is create an image which they sell rather than the product. The message is that if you buy that product you'll be like the people in the advertisement."
I think that holds true for tools as well , ie Norm Abram and Scott Phillips. Trouble begins when you apply your hard won reputation and brand name to a line of tools such as Delta's "Shopmaster" line which imho didn't deserve it. I think it did a great deal of damage to Delta's reputation, and something Pentair recognized (perhaps too late) when it split the product lines. B&D seems to be repeating the same mistake with Porter Cable. Seems to me there's a lot more hype and marketing now than twenty-five years ago ........... and a lot more selling the sizzle instead of the steak.

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Mike,

It's the same reason that I'm sure that all of your bookcases are not of the "2x shelves on cinder blocks" design that I had in college. From a functional standpoint, the 2x/cinder block bookshelf can hold books just as well as anything else. But we get to a point in our lives that we don't want to look at cinder blocks in our living room any more.

In other words, aesthetics and design has a real, tangible value, and is something that you can put a price on. For a particular item the value may not be the same for everyone, but it doesn't make it any less real, nor is it any less of a rational decision.

And one thing to keep in mind is that for many people a chest of drawers made of solid hardwood with dovetailed drawers is a "luxury good", especially since you can get a chest of drawers at Ikea for much less money.

By the way, when I bought my first set of cordless tools (drill, circular saw, reciprocating saw), after doing some research it seemed that the options in my price range really were pretty comparable to each other. So I bought a Hitachi set, because I like the color green. It was completely worth it. ;)