Is this a typical Felder/Hammer purchasing experience? (FIXED! Happy Customer now)

[Roger Jensen]

Hi All,

I ordered a Hammer A3-31 JP about five weeks ago. When I placed the order I needed to pay $700 (towards $3100 purchase price), with the balance due when delivered. I paid the $700 with my credit card.

Yesterday I got a letter from Felder telling me I had to send them a personal check immediately for the balance of the payment, even though the equipment was just manufactured in Austria. They are now saying that I cannot pay with credit card, only check.

Is this typical for Felder/Hammer? I know money is money, but I'm not thrilled with paying off the balance before delivery, and I'd rather get triple points on my credit card for this large of a purchase.

Am I unreasonable to want to see the equipment before I send them $2400 and choose my form of payment?

Roger

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

As I recall they didn't want to take my AMEX card. They wanted a bank check or a wire transfer. I thought it was a tad much. Apparently Austrian headquarters keeps the US dealership on a short leash.

[Chris Padilla]

Interesting. Is this a "we're afraid we won't get paid" kind of thing?

I'd tell them, "Fine, give me back my $700 and I'll get a Minimax that will allow me to use a credit card for the whole thing." ;)

[Matt Meiser]

Call them up and tell them you are disputing the CC charges on the original $700 as soon as you get off the phone if they don't stick to the original agreement. Then follow through.

Our credit union will open a dispute over the phone, provided that we've attempted to reach resolution. They follow up with simple paperwork a few days later. I've used it twice, once when a company didn't deliver as promised (I got a refund of overnight shipping charges) and once when a company went out of business (I got a refund on the portion of the undelivered services.) Another time as soon as I threatened to do so, the company suddenly saw things my way, knowing that I would win.

[Roger Jensen]

Turns out the order form I signed said the balance could only be paid by wire transfer or check. They want payment to clear before it is picked up.

If I want to pay by credit card there is a 2.5% additional charge. This wasn't true when they took my credit card for the down payment, but for some reason they charge it when you pay off the balance. If I decided not proceed I forfeit my $700 (after 10 days you can no longer cancel).

So my options are pay by check, pay the credit card fee of 2.5%, or lose the $700. I don't think they're losing any sleep over their customer service policy, so I don't expect to make any progress on this. I'm not dealing with a local merchant for these tools, so I guess I shouldn't expect Woodcraft-type treatment.

Oh well, lesson learned: read the fine print!

Thanks,

Roger

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My sales guy told me up front. It was like he was used to people complaining about it and headed that one off at the pass.

This was the same sales man who told me NOT to buy a Felder or Hammer Band saw.

Because he had the perspicacity to for tell me about the payment terms, I was not taken by surprise and did not have a negative impression.

It's amazing what small things make for good relations.

That salesman has since moved on to bigger and better.

[Don Abele]

Roger, like Cliff, I was given all those details up front when I purchased my J/P. Though I thought they were a little strange, I didn't mind complying as I was aware of it all up front. As I said though, it is strange that a major company like Felder/Hammer has a policy like this.

Be well,

Doc

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I tried to buy a slot mortiser several years back from Felder, and I finally just cancelled the order, because I did not want to pay with my low limit debit card in multiple transactions. After the cancellation, I was venting to the salesman, and he said "we would have just taken a check". He's no longer with Felder.

Last year though, I bought a much bigger machine, and honestly, it was probably the smoothest transaction of that size that I've been through. I bought the deposit of a fellow Creeker who needed out of his purchase, and added more money to make the deposit. The balance was by check too though, but i would not have done it any other way.

I think Felder makes far more > $10,000 deals then it does deals that are <$5,000. Their system seems set up for the bigger deals. It costs the vendor more than 2.5% to let you use a credit card, so they could be on the hook for some pretty big credit card fees if they didn't use that policy.

I've bought a dozen or so accessories for my combo, and I still get a kick out of when things ship, and show up here. Some things are overnight, literally, some are a month out. They will tell you, but it is not always the items that you'd expect to take a long time to get here that are delayed. It seems like I always have an outstanding balance because of the way that their billing is set up. Nothing gets billed to the card until the product is shipped, but you get on the accounts payable list the instant you place the order.

Roger, when your machine gets here, just for fun, find a reason to call tech support. Those guys seriously are the best in the biz. It's a great company to have an ongoing relationship with. Plus, you still get a little of that quirky European company vibe to keep it all interesting.

[Todd Burch]

What I want to know is how you got by with only spending $3K? !!! My check was 7X that when I bought.

There was shipping damage on my J/P. You could almost read the sign that said "do not top load", as it was crushed to smithereens from being top loaded. Felder made it good. Then, I couldn't raise the table without grunting. They sent (flew) a tech guy out to fix it (custom springs and new spring brackets) and set up the machine.

They never did get the height dial right. I ordered US, got metric. I called in, they sent another metric. I called in again, they sent a third metric. The last time I called in was for a refund for the upgrade difference. I did get that, and I've learned to read metric. :rolleyes:

[Wes Grass]

"I've learned to read metric"

Might be a blessing. Don't know about the J/P, but the 'inch' elevation dial on my saw reads in increments of .078" per turn. IOW, 2mm. Makes it really difficult ... no, make that impossible ... to keep up with the math in my head as to where I am. Not a big deal, as the digital counter on it reads to .01" increments, which is more than close enough for the height of a saw blade. And the dial is still good for tweaking another 10-20 thou' if needed.

.01" is probably good enough for a planer too, come to think of it. But still hard to ignore the pointer spinning around with a kind of 'where it stops, nobody knows' theme to it.

As for accessories, I've had a bunch of stuff show up a week after ordering, recently, that was listed as 'out of stock, xx-xx weeks' on the website. So probably best to call them and ask if it's something you need quick.

I was also advised to look at Laguna bandsaws by a Felder rep, as he admitted they have a much better selection. The Felder that had the resaw height I wanted was too tall to fit in my garage, and only available in 3 phase to boot. And the paint didn't match the other machines anyway ;-)

[Roger Jensen]

Thanks for everyone's feedback.

As a couple of folks have mentioned, this is more an issue of setting the right expectation than bad performance. Had the salesman made this clear it wouldn't have been a source of frustration. Getting an unexpected letter in the mail requesting immediate payment by check or wire transfer when the equipment is still sitting in Austria doesn't make a great impression.

I hope my equipment shows up in better shape than some of the other posters! I'll let you know.

Thanks again,

Roger

[Rick Fisher]

I ordered from Felder last year. It was painless. They where great to deal with. Since that time, I have gone to two open houses with Felder tech's present, and actually learned how to use the machine.. :D

I have to say.. I had some problems .. mostly due to not reading the owners manual, which looks like a small encyclopedia.. I still havent read it..

The Tech guy answered and explained my problems so fast and accruate that I felt like I was dealing with the designer. This guy really .. really knew his stuff. It was bizarre..

They dont accept credit cards on big purchases.. I am in business and agree with them on that point. They also dont do well with cash.. :p
This isnt your local Borg.. they sell specialty stuff..

Anyhow.. I cant say enough good things about them. I was in the showroom again today looking at a Jointer.. Felder is like Festool.. a disease you catch.. Once you own one.. your doomed.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Felder is like Festool.. a disease you catch.. Once you own one.. your doomed.

How right that is! I'm trying desperately to justify an AD921 lately... Oh, then there is that Forka 200...


Danged glossy catalogs, just glad there is no showroom close.

[Roger Jensen]

OK - I give up. What do you DO with a dowel boring machine? You are now officially out of my league...

[Rick Fisher]

I am betting he meant AD 951, which is a jointer/ planer which looks like an aircraft carrier.

It could be the Dowel boring thing...

[Perry Underwood]

If I want to pay by credit card there is a 2.5% additional charge.

I thought it was against the agreements businesses have with credit card companies to make the customer reimburse fees for using a card. I know some companies do it, but it seems that if they agree to accept plastic that the companies are expected to absorb the fees, although they probably just raise prices to cover the fees.

[Narayan Nayar]

I work for a German company and go to Germany regularly. In general, Germany (and perhaps businesses in most European countries) doesn't rely on consumer credit nearly as much as the U.S. does, and I think it's fair to say that they frown upon it. Financially they are extremely conservative, and that prudence has served them well in this particular economic downturn.

I remember buying a bicycle there, shocked that I couldn't pay with a credit card. It was something like 900 Euros and I was in awe that anyone would ever carry that much cash around. They do have something called an E.C. card, which is a bit like a debit card without a VISA/MC logo (charges go straight to the bank account), and those are accepted most places.

Anyway, all this just as context. I was told up front (after asking) what the purchasing protocol would be, so I wrote the check, and got the machine a week or so later. I always ask for large purchases, though.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

If I want to pay by credit card there is a 2.5% additional charge.

I thought it was against the agreements businesses have with credit card companies to make the customer reimburse fees for using a card. I know some companies do it, but it seems that if they agree to accept plastic that the companies are expected to absorb the fees, although they probably just raise prices to cover the fees.

It is against the cedit card co's rules, but, what are they going to do, take away your credit card machine and loose the business? Kind of a rule with no teeth.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

OK - I give up. What do you DO with a dowel boring machine? You are now officially out of my league...


I actually did meant he boring machine. Wierd I know, but it seems that you could use one to really speed up cabinet work. Line boring for adjustable shelves, euro hinge mounting holes a full door at a time, slide registery holes, even carcass assembly pins. The 921 has the tilting head too, which would make miter reinforcement a breeze too I'd think.

Now I've never actually used a AD 921, so this is all academic, but it's fun to think about. I need a bigger shop more urgently though, so I doubt that a new boring machine is in the works any time soon. Maybe next year...

[Perry Underwood]

It is against the cedit card co's rules, but, what are they going to do, take away your credit card machine and loose the business? Kind of a rule with no teeth.

I understand. I live in Taiwan. There are a lot of rules with no teeth here.

[Mike Gottlieb]

I agree with Rick. My dealings on the Hammer A3-31 went flawless. Yes, they only accepted my credit card for the deposit and requested a check for the balance, but I knew this up front. I am more than satisfied with the product.

[Scot Ferraro]

I had the same experience when I bought my J/P, but the salesman explained it all up front. If you got the letter then that means that the machine is due to arrive in port soon -- they usually send that out when they have an estimated delivery date, so maybe you are going to get your machine sooner than anticipated. I would check with them first before sending in final payment.

I have found that you need to be patient when dealing with them -- they stand behind their products and they make it right if there are issues, it is just not always as speedy as I would expect. I would agree with Steve that the tech support is top-notch and they can walk you through any set-up questions or troubleshoot over the phone. With that said, the machines are truly awesome and have worked flawlessly once set up and I am a happy user and do not hesitate recommending their machinery to anyone in the market for new equipment.

Scot

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi All,

I ordered a Hammer A3-31 JP about five weeks ago. When I placed the order I needed to pay $700 (towards $3100 purchase price), with the balance due when delivered. I paid the $700 with my credit card.

Yesterday I got a letter from Felder telling me I had to send them a personal check immediately for the balance of the payment, even though the equipment was just manufactured in Austria. They are now saying that I cannot pay with credit card, only check.

Is this typical for Felder/Hammer? I know money is money, but I'm not thrilled with paying off the balance before delivery, and I'd rather get triple points on my credit card for this large of a purchase.

Am I unreasonable to want to see the equipment before I send them $2400 and choose my form of payment?

Roger

Hi Roger, we've all been through it, it's a different way of doing business.

I understand your reluctance to pay before receiving the machine, however this is standard procedure for them.

It's different, though you have no fear of not receiving the best service and commitment from Felder. They're a family business with high standards, and will pull out all the stops to make sure that you received what they promised.

Enjoy your planer/jointer, I really like my A3-31.......Rod.

[Andrew Joiner]

Another reason to use Visa or Mastercard is they double the warranty time for free. If the product comes with a 1 year warranty ,you get 1 year extra or 2 years total.

[Brian Tax]

I just purchased a machine from them, and I was not told that I had to pay with a check, it is not a big deal to me, seems like it would be slower for them. We will see what happens, but I was told the machine would take 90 days, so you might get lucky.

[Roger Jensen]

So I spoke to my original salesperson today (I spoke to someone else yesterday when I called in to question the letter). He apologized for not making this clear up front and said I could pay the balance by credit card and he would cover the difference himself.

Simply outstanding customer service. It is refreshing when a company realizes a relatively small gesture early in a relationship can pay dividends in the long run. I swung from someone that had second thoughts about the buying decision to a Felder/Hammer advocate - particularly this salesman.

I hope everyone that read my original post sees how they responded.

Roger

[Roger Jensen]

It also gives you more leverage if there is something significantly wrong with the product, as you can challenge the charge. If you pay by cash you have virtually no power after the sale. This is a nice thing when it is the first time you have dealt with a vendor.

In any case, please see my later post about how well Felder responded to the situation.

Roger

[Ben Martin]

So I spoke to my original salesperson today (I spoke to someone else yesterday when I called in to question the letter). He apologized for not making this clear up front and said I could pay the balance by credit card and he would cover the difference himself.

Simply outstanding customer service. It is refreshing when a company realizes a relatively small gesture early in a relationship can pay dividends in the long run. I swung from someone that had second thoughts about the buying decision to a Felder/Hammer advocate - particularly this salesman.

I hope everyone that read my original post sees how they responded.

Roger

Perhaps edit your original post so that people don't have to wade through the posts to get to the conclusion. Congrats on the good outcome.

[Roger Jensen]

Unfortunately, I can't edit the post (I think there is a 24 hr limit).

RJ

[Rod Sheridan]

So I spoke to my original salesperson today (I spoke to someone else yesterday when I called in to question the letter). He apologized for not making this clear up front and said I could pay the balance by credit card and he would cover the difference himself.

Simply outstanding customer service. It is refreshing when a company realizes a relatively small gesture early in a relationship can pay dividends in the long run. I swung from someone that had second thoughts about the buying decision to a Felder/Hammer advocate - particularly this salesman.

I hope everyone that read my original post sees how they responded.

Roger

Good news Roger, sounds like the typical Felder customer response........Rod.

[Phil Thien]

That was very nice of the Felder rep. And smart, too, as it is all I'll remember of this thread in years to come.

Great customer service is smart. Especially during these times.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

One interesting note on the usefulness of these forums in communicating with our suppliers, Felder in particular. The experiance I had with the slot mortiser that I mentioned a earlier, inspired me to post a non flattering post on a different forum. I got a call from Felder later in the day, offering to go way out of their way to fix my issue. It worked for them, I'm a customer for life now!

Completely unrelated, but I get to call Fergus tomorrow and raz him a bit about why exactly I need the two remote start switches that UPS brought yesterday for one X-roll table... Anybody need one? ;)

[Wes Grass]

"remote start switches ... X-roll table ... Anybody need one?

Hmm. What's it take to hook that up?

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Actually Wes, it dosen't look that bad to install. The mechanical part of the installation is a piece of cake, then the wireless parts need to be synced up. I suspect that these are synced from the factory, but maybe not... Guess I'll find out this weekend!

I also suspect that Felder will want the extra back. $667 per copy, so they probably won't comp the extra.

[Larry Edgerton]

"I've learned to read metric"

;-)

I taped a conversion chart on the deck of my SCMI 520 for those "Duh" moments when my internal converter is not working. Blueprints are always in feet and inches, so I can't convert to metric just yet, but I will when I quit building.

[Rod Sheridan]

I taped a conversion chart on the deck of my SCMI 520 for those "Duh" moments when my internal converter is not working. Blueprints are always in feet and inches, so I can't convert to metric just yet, but I will when I quit building.

I ordered mine with the metric height gauge as I'm working on going metric in the shop.

It's so much easier to add whole numbers than fractions.

Regards, Rod.

[Joe Jensen]

So I spoke to my original salesperson today (I spoke to someone else yesterday when I called in to question the letter). He apologized for not making this clear up front and said I could pay the balance by credit card and he would cover the difference himself.

Simply outstanding customer service. It is refreshing when a company realizes a relatively small gesture early in a relationship can pay dividends in the long run. I swung from someone that had second thoughts about the buying decision to a Felder/Hammer advocate - particularly this salesman.

I hope everyone that read my original post sees how they responded.

Roger

Rick, does this change your mind about the Laguna jointer you are on the edge of buying?

[Mike Heidrick]

OK - I give up. What do you DO with a dowel boring machine? You are now officially out of my league...

Box/Carcass assembly is my guess. Drills holes in edge of panel correct?

[Todd Burch]

Shelf pin holes is a quite popular application. Fast, perfect, one operation.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Mike, Todd, did you guys see the post I did with my dowel machine musings? I only ask this because sometimes posts get lost "below current depth", and your posts kind of make me wonder if mine flew under the radar.

Your both right, I think. I've never used one, but both of those types of boring processes are what I was thinking about. Anything to make casework quicker and more consistant is a good thing if you ask me. Gives you more time for the fun bits, hanging the wood on the front!