hand rail

[michael foster]

I am building a hand rail at home . The design is quite simple but it is exposed to tropical elements and I would like to be sure it stands the test of time. The spindles are 1" square with the corners 1/4 rounded at 1/8" . I would like to cut a square mortise and tenon joint for the spindles. I will be taking off 1/8" of an inch all around the spindle ends . The tenon will go in to the top and bottom rail 3/4". The last time I built some similar rail it was all by hand . This time it is about 150 ft of rail with spindles every 4 " and I want to finish in a month . There are three steps included which will require an angled mortise and tenon joint . What is the best way to go about this project to get through it quickly and make sure it lasts.the posts are 3 1/2" square and the rails are 1 3/4" x 3" . I will be using stainless steel crabs to fix the posts to the concrete floor and I was wondering if I should mortise the rails into the posts or bolt them together with stainless steel straps.

[Todd Burch]

I think you mean you want to cut a tenon on the top and bottom of the spindles, and a mortise in the rails.

If the rail is straight, you can use a hollow chisel mortiser, or, glue up the rail, leaving those sections that will be the mortises void of wood.

For the spindles, you could set up a stacked dado head cutter on your tablesaw or radial arm saw, a sacrificial fence (if on the tablesaw) and have it at.

[michael foster]

Thanks for your quick reply. All of the rails are straight . I will need to buy a mortiser they are none available in Barbados so I will need to order from the States . I am not sure what type to buy what would you recommend. What about the angled mortise and tenon for the steps. The last sentence went over my head or was missing some details. Could you break it down further for me .
Michael.......

[Rod Sheridan]

Michael, General International make a very nice tilt head portable mortiser.

http://www.general.ca/promo/Spring-Summer09_USA.pdf

There are promotional pricings on these machines now.

Regards, Rod.

[Brad Shipton]

I am just finishing my stairs and I used M&T joints on all of the Box Newels, Rails and spindles. On my last sloped segment I used hidden fasteners for the spindles and not only was it a ton faster, but I found the joints worked out a bit tighter. The M&T joints worked perfect for the straight segments, but I found that any slight error on the sloped segments resulted in a small gap.

150ft sounds like about 450 spindles, and thats a lot of tenon work. I'd be tempted to use hidden fasteners and a bit of glue and move on with life.

I used a shaper to make the tenons. The shaper is a bit faster, since you can make two cuts per pass, but a TS will work fine. My mortiser worked great, but I did have to clean up the corners by hand.

Here is a pic of one of my segments.

Bradhttp://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj176/Brad805/House%20Stairs/DSC02077-sm.jpg

[Richard Wolf]

Rule #1 for outside rails is, make sure there are no places for water to collect. Most people plow the bottom rail, sink the balusters in and use filler
pieces or fillets to fill in the plow. The problem is water collects and in winter freezes, expands and destroys the rail. I realize, freezing is of little concern to you, but, collecting water in any mortise will lead to destruction of time.
Like Brad suggests, use some form of mechanical fastener with exterior glue and it will last longer.

Richard

[michael foster]

Richard your point about the water is well received. This is why I think that a mortise and tenon with a shoulder all around the joint and waterproof glue are good steps. I am not sure about these mechanical fasteners.
I spent most of my working life old school hand and then some electrical hand tools . I am now trying to learn how to fully utilize the table saw and other equipment. How would I set up the run through the table saw to make sure the cuts are consistant.
I appreciate the link to the tilting mortiser from the motorcycle man I am checking it out. Thanks for all of your help so far I guess the most of my queries are about technical aspecs on making full use of standard equipment.

Michael..........

[michael foster]

the last time I asked where I could find information on how to make full use of the table saw . I have used a table saw but I need to learn the neet tricks that make the table saw more versatile. I am still uncertain how I would set up the Table Saw with a dadoo to cut the tenons on the 1" square spindles. The metal fasteners that were recomended are something I don't know about and so I have never used .My topic is now on page 4 and I still have the above questions unanswered . How do I keep the topic current and get all of my questions answered.

Michael..........

[Eiji Fuller]

The Domino would be the fastest way to accomplish the mission.

[Richard Wolf]

I realize you are looking for help, but it is almost like asking for the meaning of life. Using tools to accomplish tasks take years of self discovery.
Your question was answered, in that M&T are not the best way to deal with outside rails. Metal fasteners, are as simple as screws or nails. If you don't want to use metal, drilling and glueing dowels in the bottom is a great way to do it.

But to answer your question about tenons on the end of baluster. Place your dado set on the saw,attach a sacrifical fence to your rip fence so only enough blade is exposed to cut the shoulder. You will need a method to support the baluster vertically, a tenon jig. Cut one side, turn 90 degrees, cut again, turn, cut, turn, cut. I hope this gets you in the direction you need.

Richard

[Rick Moyer]

I agree with Richard in that I would not use mortises in the lower rail. You could use them under the top rail and use filler pcs. in between the spindles. I would set the bottom of the spindle flush with the lower rail and fasten them from below with screws, or glue them, but I would not want a mortise in the lower rail for water(and dirt) to collect in.

[Brad Shipton]

You know as I was making my M&T joints I learned many reasons why you do not find this joinery in stair building books or from an expert such as Richard. I apologize in advance if I am repeating lots of things you already know.

In your case you have about 450 spindles. There are four passes per end for a total of 3600 cuts if you use the TS. Not only does that take quite a bit of time, but also, with each pass there is the possibilty you will make an error. Next, you need to make the railing into sub assemblies as you cannot build in place when you have tenons on both ends. Each of those wonderful spindles now needs a mortise in the rails. Yet again, more chance for little errors that can yield a useless mortise. When I say errors, I mean 1/32"s, not big ones. The advantage of hidden fasteners is two fold. They are far quicker to install, allow you too assemble as you go making slight adjustments where needed and in the end, I think with a bit of glue it is a better connection.

I opted for MT joinery to work on my hand tool skills and for the satisfaction, but I dont think I would do it again. Definetly not in an exterior application.

Good luck with your project and let us know how it goes.

Brad

[michael foster]

All of what I needed to know so far is understood. Those 3600 passes are daunting and that is only the tenons. I will sleep on it , absorb the information over the next few days and make a decision . I am trying to finish a bathroom and the installation of a desk . The Hand rail is next so I need to get all of my preparation and decision making wrapped up . I thank you all very much for all of your advise and will certainly let you know how I am getting through, may even try to post a picture.


Michael from Barbados....