Urban Logging

[Drew Lavis]

I have this ebb-and-flow interest in urban logging.

It started a few years back when a freak ice/snow storm took out a significant number of trees in and around my city (Buffalo NY). This included a big hickory tree in my own back yard, which was kind enough to fall in the only direction which would not have damaged someone's house or garage.

While dealing with the associated problems of that storm, my mind was already racing with the thoughts of what I could build with all that hickory, and maybe some of the maple that was lying around practically within arm's reach. But in the months that followed I could not find anyone who would mill it. It was always some variation of "Nails. Won't touch it". Nor did I hear of anyone else salvaging hardwoods in this way, even as mountains of wood-chip mulch grew large in various sites around the city.

And I thought, as I have several times since, "my kingdom for a portable bandmill and a truck" And then I think AND a kiln AND a small barn AND two or three helpers AND insurance AND 1/2 acre of land AND 15 years of lost youth AND triple my current free time AND whatever else I'm forgetting. Then my interest goes back into Ebb Mode...

until I see things like Daren Nelson's posts in the "invest in lumber" thread, or, yesterday, two Craigslist adds for black walnut logs - "mill it and we share the wood" Then I start thinking again how jumping in to this seeming vacuum of opportunity could be lucrative, enjoyable, and environmentally responsible (as well as solving my personal wood supply problems forever).

So I'm turning to this community to talk me in or out of this, get me off the fence. Is this a dream worth pursuing? Can it begin with a part-time commitment? What are the essentials to get started? What are the costs? What are the pitfalls? Can you really make any money at it?

Looking forward to any responses
- Drew

[Todd Burch]

Been there, tried that. Walk away, save your money. It's a heck of a lot cheaper to pay top dollar premium $$ for the woods you really want to work with than investing in all your "AND" items, to only get mediocre wood anyway, a long time down the road for that matter. Buy the wood as you need it, and don't pay to store it. DAMHIKT.

To get the bug out of your system, find someone with a mill and go help them, for free, for a day. They will love you for it and you will love the experience. Even take a fresh cut board home at the end of the day and watch it dry and warp and move, and then a year later, mill it up. (And then multiply the effort put into that one board X 1000 to get a feel for handling a lot of wood)

[Ed Sallee]

You might be interested in checking out this link...... (http://www.horiganufp.com/)

[Tom Sontag]

It IS a lot of work, but it can also be very rewarding. Not in a financial sense though. I know; I have a full time operation here in St. Louis.

I think the bare minimum requirements are some space (including covered for wood storage), a mill, a chainsaw and a way to haul and move logs. A cant hook and trailer with winch would be the minmum for hauling and moving. Realize that minimum means more labor.

There is a lot to this subject. PM me for my number if you want to discuss by phone.

[Mike Parzych]

If I was twenty years younger I'd be thinking the same way. Well, I AM thinking the same way, but I've reached that point where my ideas exceed my physical capabilities.

One thing to consider. Daren and most of the portable mill guys I buy from make their living cutting trees primarily, and the free logs are a lucrative bonus. I'm no expert by any means, that's just an observation. The guys I get lumber from nearly all own tree services.

But I'm awed by some of the lumber I've seen on the net and in person, that result from urban logging.

[Gary Herrmann]

I've thought about it a couple times. I harvest log sections for turning, and I doubt I'll go farther than that.

Besides, I can yap at Tom whenever I need more wood. :D

[Andrew Joiner]

There is a fine satisfaction to slicing up a log. I've had the same fantasy since I was a boy. Now I can afford to buy any mill,and log handling gear I want.
Here is what I have done several times.

Make the calls and get the costs on all you list. All this will go on list 1A:

Bandmill , truck, kiln, barn AND two or three helpers, insurance, AND land.

Add the cost of a lift or tractor, bands, fuel and electric bills. Add the time and cost to maintain and buy parts.

Then add the time and cost to sell the lumber, run adds and respond to clients. For retail you have to take the time to show people around, stack and unstack and haggle.

Then time and cost to do the books, taxes and paperwork.

After all this put totals of time and money on paper. That is list 1A.


Then list the time and cost to pick thru a pile of lumber and buy just what you want. Figure some costs for a leisurely drive thru the countryside. This will be list 1B.


OK, I ran the numbers and I still want to slice logs into boards, so I bought a 21" vertical bandsaw. Fits in my shop and I have space to slice any log I can lift.

It may be a long time before I slice any logs because I have tons of beautiful clear planks I got cheap from a guy with a mill and kiln. He was selling them cheap because he needed money for list 1A.

[John Morrison60]

Dave
The best advice here is to go volunteer with a local sawyer. I did that the last two Saturdays, and it was terrific. I came away with an understanding of the investment, and the amount of Hard Work that sawmilling entails. If you have the logs already cut to length and piled within rolling distance of the portable mill, you can turn out a lot of wood in a day. That assumes that you have 2-4 helpers to
carry off the outside cut junk, and stack the good boards being cut. Setting up to cut a couple of logs in an urban setting seems uneconomical. Picking up logs to take to a central site for cutting is another way also, but there is no free lunch. I also am dismayed with the amount of wood chips and firewood created from beautiful trees, (we have just gone through the Ash Borer disaster here in S.E. Michigan), but I am unable to figure out how to harvest it for a good cost.

Good luck, There are sawyers that deal in urban logs, so some pieces must be possible, I just don't see it being a good business generate much income.

John

[Greg Crawford]

Drew,

Have the same bug! I've broken even on selling mesquite, plus gotten my wood for free. It's been VERY small scale, and lots of hard work. I enjoy it though, so just ordered an Alaska mill. Should have my bar and ripping chain today so I can mill the 5 cypress logs and a few other mesquite logs. I already had a chainsaw (50 cc Husky). It's barely enough to work, and I have to let it rest a lot. IF I make any money with this batch of wood and one other in the near future, I'll upgrade the saw.

I have a friend with a pole barn for air drying, plus I get to mill his pecan trees as they are thinned. He has a tractor, and he and another friend have trailers as well as 1 ton trucks that can do some real hauling (I just have a half ton). I also have another friend with a bandsaw mill if I need.

If I had to invest in all the equipment, I'd stick to just milling for me. I get to choose my own wood, how it's milled, the size, etc. There is a guy here in Houston that does much the same as Horigan in the link from Ed. He gets some phenomenal wood, and gets big bucks for some of it.

Oh, don't forget a good metal detector!

[David Keller NC]

Greg - I've had an Alaskan for 12 years, and a massive Stihl 066 Magnum to run it. What I'm going to suggest to you is to stick with the cypress. I'm not sure about mesquite, but Pecan is harder than glass. You will be so sore after pushing the saw down the log that you're going to have difficulty getting out of bed the next day - and that's if you're 25.

There is an accessory for using one of these mills that most don't think about (I didn't) and learn from experience - a carbon filtered respirator is an absolute necessity. Without it, your face is very close to the exhaust on the chain saw, and you will be breathing it all day. Not good.

Finally, realize that you will need to buy one of the Granberg power grinders for sharpening the rip chains. You will need to touch it up after every 2 passes down a log of hard wood such as Pecan, Oak or Maple.

Good luck to you - I can verify that's very interesting to slice up an unusual log and see what's inside, but it is definitely not an inexpensive way to get wood. I'd estimate that it costs roughly 4 times the going rate for walnut, cherry and figured maple to saw it up for yourself.

[Al Weber]

I'm 67 years old and two years ago I bought a hand held bandsaw mill called a RipSaw. It operates like a chainsaw mill but uses a chainsaw power head to drive a small band saw. Its advantages are that it is relatively inexpensive but it is a lot of work. It is useful for carrying to a log so you don't have to move the log to a mill. But you still need to lift the log if you want to work off the ground. This can be done with a auto jack and some ingenuity. But remember you have to get rid of a lot of waste, you need to have a place to dry the wood and a place to store it.

All said, it is still an addictive hobby that I'm just about too old to continue. But I have about 7 or 8 logs (cherry and spalted maple) left from last year and there is no way I'm going to turn them into firewood.

You don't have to go for a large bandsaw mill. A chainsaw mill or a RipSaw or similar will work very well but takes more physical work and less money.

See the Milling section at the ÅrboristSite Website for some experts experiences and advise. Great people and if you just search for the type of mill you are thinking about, you will find a lot of information. There are many people who build their own mills and you can find information on that aspect also.

If you decide to take the first step, I think you will enjoy it. If you are like me, I have now run out of storage space (and the energy to continue) but I plan to move all my lumber when (and if) I sell the NH property and can move south.

[Ben Martin]

You might be interested in checking out this link...... (http://www.horiganufp.com/)

This is where I get my lumber from, great place and nice people to deal with!

[Drew Lavis]

Thanks for the replies.

The suggestion of finding a sawyer to let you work with him/her for a day is a great idea. As mentioned, it might be enough to just have the experience.

But as purely a 'make or buy' decision it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense. I don't do nearly as much woodworking as I would like (and really, who in this forum does?) - the cost of getting into the business would probably set me up for life if I just used the money to buy the wood outright. My motivation stems from generating a second source of income from something I enjoy, and helping right a perceived conservational wrong.

The idea of ending up with 'mediocre wood' does give me pause. I'd hate to put all those resources into it and end up not being very good at it. To that end I would likely list a kiln among the essentials. In any case the point that not every log contains buried treasure is well taken.

Another thing to consider is the time I put into milling would surely take from the time I spend woodworking - unless I went whole hog and quit my day job, which just isn't going to happen.

[Dave Lehnert]

Here is a book on the subject. I am about 1/3 of the way through it.

http://www.amazon.com/Harvesting-Urban-Timber-Woodworkers-Library/dp/0941936716/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1241573455&sr=1-1


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZW9C5VA2L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[george wilson]

My workmate Jon constantly gets fallen wood,especially walnut. We have a friend who has a lumberyard and a WoodMizer. Jon rents it on site for $25.00 an hour. Jon cuts a lot of gunstock wood. He buys old tractor trailer bodies to store it in. He got one for $250.00.He's gotten some real nice wood that way,several species. Just today I helped Jon load 2 -32" dia. x 12' long poplar logs from a tree I had to take down. Not a great wood ,but certainly very wide planks can be made.

Jon intends(already does) sell walnut gunstock blanks. He bought a nice gunstock duplicator also,and makes custom stocks to sell.

[Mike Parzych]

Heh....I think the real "mediocre" lumber is what you find being retailed. The truely outstanding stuff is being skimmed off far before the wood store.

Right now I've got 2 seven foot cherry logs from a tree that went down in a storm last year. I'm going to have them sawed into 6/4 slabs, air dry them, and have some great bookmatches for making table tops. I'd pay an arm and leg for that on the retail market.

[Brian Effinger]

Well, Drew, I can't help you with your problem, but if you ever do start something, or find someone in the area doing it, let me know. You'd have at least one customer. :)

Brian

[Michael Conner]

You can make a little money sawing and you can get into a sawmill for not too much money. However, I would recommend that you find out if it is for you first. I started out working with wood doing arts and crafts type stuff. From there, I built my tool collection and starting making simple furniture for myself and some friends. I got tired of paying big bucks for good lumber at big box stores, so I bought a mill. I like milling as much as woodworking. However, if I did not, this would have been a heck of a waste of money. The thing to remember is that you can turn out much more wood than you can use in your own shop. How long would it take you to go through 1000 bdft of oak? I can tell you that with a mid-level mill this is a pretty easy quantity to cut in a day. If you can locate a mill in your area, that same 1000 bdft could be cut for you for between 250 - 450 dollars depending on the going rate in your area. You could pay to have a lot of wood cut for the cost of the mill.

In sum, if you think you would like milling, find a sawyer and help out for day. See if it is for you. If you like it, go for it. It is fun. However, if you are doing it to make money or to supply your personal woodworking habit, it may not be the best option.

[Nathan Hawkes]

I really wish that I had the money & land to do the same thing. Its been my dream to do the same thing for quite a while. I have a Husqvarna 394Xp and an Alaskan sawmill, with a 42" bar for the time being, as well as a Lewis Winch that can pull 8000lbs unobstructed. I also have a RipSaw, which is great. I really wish I'd saved longer and gotten a small used woodmizer, or other brand mill for that matter. But, hindsight is 20/20. I can get it places I couldn't get a log out of, and can certainly easily carry a board at a time of nice lumber up or down an embankment that I couldn't get a log out of or a mill to.

If you're looking for ideas, or something to emulate, try here:



http://www.scottbanbury.com/index.html

[Todd Burch]

I think if I ever had the time and inclination to do this again, I would get a swing mill that I could take to the log. And one of those rubber track loaders. And a vacuum kiln. And a resaw. Yeah, that's the ticket. A resaw.