Wide Belt R Drum Sander...?

[John Thompson]

I am very familar with WW'ing machines but.. not these sanders. I have actually used both but briefly which means I really don't know the pro's and con's of each. I'm familar with the size panels that can be run which is obvious so.. I suppose I am looking for feed-back from any that have owned both or used both as to which they would chose.

A few of my questions are.. does the open end models stay stable to avoid deflection.. etc? Which has the edge on conveniece of setting up.. changing paper.. adjusting.. and how much HP do you feel is enough in both scenarios. I realize that not all will be able to respond from an experience point of view but.... hopefully I might pick up something that is significant in which to pursue.

BTW.. I have a 20" planer and this would be used for light sanding of re-sawn and wide panels that may or may not have been veneered.. I am wired for 5 HP so that is not an issue if indeed someone thinks that much HP is necessary. And this is not for production as I am simple a 6 day a week home wood-worker averaging 6-8 hours a day in the shop with absolutely no dead-lines.

Thanks to any that might lead to someone catching something I failed to already consider with a decision..

Off to the shop to operate machines in lieu of consider a new one.. :>)
Sarge..

[george wilson]

The types of open side sanders that have a rigid head,like the Delta,which I have,are quite accurate,and do not spring out of parallel. The types that have the head rising and falling to adjust for wood thickness are not rigid. My Delta 18-32" is 1 1/2 h.p.. I do not take heavy cuts with it. In fact,the 36" Timesaver thickness sander that the Millwork shop in Colonial Williamsburg has,was not for heavy cuts,either.

I have adjusted my Delta so that there is no discernable difference in thickness across a 10" wide board when measured with .001" graduated dial calipers.

[David DeCristoforo]

"In fact,the 36" Timesaver...was not for heavy cuts,either."

This is often misunderstood The big wide belt machines look so imposing that many assume that you can really hog off some wood with them. But they are surprisingly easy to "choke" if you attempt to take a big bite, especially with finer grits. They are still sanders, not planers!

[J.R. Rutter]

The energy required for using a sander as an abrasive planer is surprisingly high. I typically remove just 0.5 mm per pass on my 30 HP 2-head sander.

As for the drum types, the Performax 22/44 that I once owned had a bit too much flex for my needs. It was fine for very light passes though.

[John Thompson]

George.. when you refer to ridgid head, does that mean some type of additional support on that Delta or... a table that moves up and down which would allow a fixed head. I get your intent as my concern on that open end is that fact the head could deviate unless heavily re-inforced in some way.

David.. great point for those that might read this but you noticed I said I would use if for light passes. I got to work with the Steel City drum and open end at IWF when I demo'ed machines for them. I learned a few things as I am not familar with the large sanders. The first thing they told me when I got near one of those sander was to set up for no more than 1/32" pass or it would possibly bog or at the least clog the paper in a hear-beat.

At another booth... I saw a paid customer do just that with a Shopfox and it creates problems from ruining wood.. paper.. possible damage to the machine if cranked deep enough and for sure.. some real clean-up time. I' m glad I was told in advance as I would probably have set up deeper having no experience with it at the time.

Thanks guys.... back to the shop for routered dadoes.. etc.

Sarge..

[Joe Jensen]

What are people looking to do with deep passes on a sander? Trying to substitute for a planer? I don't get it? I NEVER need to sander 1/32" off anything. If I did it would have been terribly sloppy craftsmanship I think.

[David DeCristoforo]

"What are people looking to do with deep pasases on a sander?"

I think it comes from not understanding the nature of the machines. They are often called "thickness sanders" or "abrasive thicknessers" or even "abrasive planers". Any of those terms could imply that they are capable of removing a lot of material quickly. And, as I mentioned, their imposing size and large motors (15 - 25 HP) can reinforce this misconception.

[John Thompson]

Along with what David said Joe.. you may have read too much into what was said about 1/32". I was told to go no deeper than 1/32" as it will clog the paper and possibly bog the sander. But.... that doen't mean you have to take anywhere near 1/32". And yes.. as David stated, some think they can substitute one for a jointer and planer because it is advertised as a thickness sander which is really decieving.

The main purpose I would like to have one is I am doing more and more veneering with the cost of wood rising as I have basically done solid stock for almost 38 years. My band-saw will leave one side glue ready but... the other side has to be sanded as it will leave lines visible in the vicinity of .0025 approximate as I can't measure micro. It can be done by hand or ROS but... a large sander saves time. The down-side is the cost which one has to weigh against time saved.

A few pieces is not bad as say a book-matched door.. but panel for say the computer desk-hutch I am working on are a lot of hand sanding. There is about 130 board feet in that desk and hutch and the sanding did take more time than I wished. So.. if I run into a used sander at a steal or Craigslist or E-bay as a local freind did (16-32 for $300.. can we say Divorce) I very well pick it up as I do a lot of large carcass work.

Hope that helps clarify...

Sarge..

[Peter Quinn]

Sarge, I have a 22-44 performax pro drum sander at home and use a 38" 15HP wide belt daily at work. I use the home machine for small parts, flushing panels after glue ups, precision thicknessing like floating tennons. I have sanded 44" wide panels by flipping and using two passes, it does leave a witness line that must be sanded out. I have never had a problem with the head deflecting to any extent that would affect wood working tolerances. Mine has an open ended design where table moves, the head is rigid. I have not done large table tops or counter tops, not sure it would handle those very well.

One thing to consider is that most drum sanders sand in a straight line and leave mill marks that must be sanded out themselves, where most wide belt sanders oscillate side to side which minimizes or eliminates these marks. One exception is Jet Tools new drum sander, which oscillates like a wide belt. I have no idea how it performs. All things being equal a decent wide belt will out perform a very good drum sander on most tasks and handle a much bigger volume of work with more consistent results. A wide belt also takes more power (5HP is a bit light, think 10HP except for the very small open end designs), requires a lot more CFM's worth of dust collection, weights a ton (literally) and requires a much bigger foot print.

I would trade my drum sander for a wide belt in a heart beat if I could afford one, fit one, and get enough power in my shop for the machine and necessary dust collection. But I simply cannot, so for me drum sander was the only option besides hand sanding.

[John Thompson]

Thanks for your input on HP Peter as no one has really touched that issue yet. I was wondering about the 22-44 or the 16-32. Is 1 3/4 HP sufficient when I see most dual drums have 3 HP to 5 HP? I am guessing yes as I can't recall hearing any major complaints about them.

And if you know.. are the Jets basically the same as the Performax in the 16-32 .. 22-44 range? From comments of components and looks, they appear close if not made by the same company but that can be decieving in given circumstances..

Regards...

Sarge..

[Karl Brogger]

With a 60 grit belt you can remove a rediculous amount of material if need be. Just about the only time I've HAD to use hog off material is when I make a table top that won't fit through the planer and it has a border I'll glue up my top get it smooth, then use contact adhesive to attach it to a particle board bottom, then grind down the wood to a 1/4" or less.

As far as widebelt versus drum sander, I got by for years with a with a drum sander. I bought the absolute bottom line Timesaver's widebelt and while it isn't nearly as nice as most of the widebelts I've used it is light years ahead of the 37" Woodmaster I had before.

I don't think it ever made it to production but Timesaver's had a 6 head 43" model they built. 3 on the top, 3 the bottom. I don't remember the price tag, but it was rediculous, and so worth it.

[John Thompson]

Thanks Carl. I really am not looking for a super large wide-belt as my use if for home shop with mainly veneer. If I have a 34" top I simply make it in two sections of 17" each.. run both through my 20" planer then glue them up. If any ridge is left is it in-signifcant and can be removed with about two passes with a hand card scarper or one pass with a low angle smoothing plane.

I am very fascinated in some of the production sanders though as I go to I'WF every two years and get to see some pretty impressive production machinery there. Some of those machines (not necessarilty sanders) have to be erected with cranes inside the Georgia World Congress Center and take a week to set up. They kind of get your attention as soon as you turn a corner and see them. :)

Again.. thanks for your in-put...

Sarge..

[Norm Koerner]

I have the Performax 22-44. Unlike a previous poster, I am disappointed with the flex of the drum on the side with the opening. I only adujst the crank (height) 1/4 turn on narrow stock and 1/8 or less on wider.

I have thought of putting a couple L-brackets on the open side with knurled nuts to restrict the spring-out. The non-parallel deflection is, of course, greater with (1) wide stock, (2) heavier cuts, (3)harder woods like white oak, (4) faster conveyor belt speeds, and (5) finer grits. I have resorted to using primarily 80-100 grit to avoid the later problem. And then you definitely have to use a random-orbit sander to get rid of the tiny parallel scratches. Also, a second pass at the same thickness setting will remove additional material.

If I were to get another drum sander, I'd want one with height (or thickness) adjustments on BOTH sides of the drum.

In fact, I do have one that way, but it's the 12-inch Baby Grizzly. And you better make extremely light cuts or you will be replacing the worm-gear mechanism which drives the conveyor belt. In most cases it's the bigger nylon gear driven by the worm shaft that strips. But most recently it was the tiny shaft itself. In the first case, the nylon gear is like $16 plus shipping. In the later, you must buy the motor with the shaft and that sets you back $132 plus shipping. It states in their manual that you are to run your pieces through TWICE at the same thickness setting, but in my classes, some students get in a hurry.

Norm

[Rick Fisher]

I have a small home use Wide Belt Sander and a Drum.. I have burned my fair share of Drum Sander paper :p.. Today, I was running some 1.33" x 1.5" x 84" long lumber through the Wide Belt and put two in the thicker way.. .. by accident ..

Shredded the belt.. Fortunately didnt damage the actual drum..

http://i335.photobucket.com/albums/m455/jokerbird_photo/P1140195.jpg

Shows what can happen if you try to hog off material with a Wide Belt. Even if by accident.. The rubber drum is marked, but still okay..

The belts arent free.. although this one can now be had free... lol..

[John Thompson]

Thanks for your feed-back of the other side of the coin, Norm. I question an open head as the design is prone to some type of deflection but the qustion was just how much. It appears to me that a fixed head supported on both side would be a better option but.. it does take away the X 2 capability so as with other machines.. both have pro's and con's.

Rick... that belt is pretty nasty after the hog and I'm glad you posted the picture as it might drive home the point of these machines are not meant to be used as thickness planers as I have read several cases of those that were thinking about buying one in lieu of a planer first.

That looks like a General? If so.. how do you like it? I have seen much of General here in Atlanta as there was a General distributor here. No frills.. bells or whisltes.. just well built machines made to work.

Sarge..

[Rick Fisher]

Its a small machine.. I have a 24" Double Drum and that 15" WBS.

If I had to do it all again, I would have gotten just a 24" Wide Belt. I may just sell all my stationary sanders.. (also have a 36" Double Drum, its a sickness) and buy a 24" Wide Belt.

If your finances permit it, just get a big Wide Belt sander..

[John Thompson]

Thanks for the info and reccomendation, Rick. I may just keep my eye peeled for a wide belt on CL or Ebay as I really can't justify a new one not being a production shop. Would be nice but... I only buy what I absolutely need unless I stumble on a deal I just can't refuse as a friend did about 3 weeks ago. He had been searching CL for 6 months and it paid off for him.

Sarge..

[Karl Brogger]

Search for local online auction services. Around here there is two that routinely have cabinet shops equipment on them. Just last week there was 37" Timesavers Speedsander like I have, but a couple years newer and it sold for $4600, + $460(10% buyers fee and no tax). Decent price, I paid $4500 for mine + 6.5% sales tax, through a local equipment dealer. They're about $7500 new.

A couple of weeks ago a single head 43" sold for (I think) $3500. Make use of the trades being in the crapper. Equipment is dirt cheap right now. I seriously doubt everything we'll see used equipment selling this low again for a long time.

[Travis Porter]

I am a recent convertee from a Performax 22-44 Pro to a Timesavers Speedsander Timesaver's "economy" model. I never used either as a thicknesser. My primary use is for leveling panels and glue ups. The difference in speed, accuracy, and smoothness for me is like night and day. I now used the wide belt to finish sand or at least close to finish sand all of the parts for anything I make all the way to 220 grit. Changing grit size is a breeze, something I never did on the Performax just because of the hassle. Many times with the Performax the paper got loaded up or something and ruined.

The negative side to the wide belt for me is the amount of power it pulls. My unit is a 10 HP 3 phase and it SUCKS with a garden hose. I have had to upgrade my phase converter and the power feeding it to 60 amps.

[J.R. Rutter]

It might be worth keeping an eye out for a double drum sander. That was my intermediate step between the Performax and the wide belt. You can avoid a lot of the negatives of a drum sander if you dial in the height difference between first and second drum, then stick to the same 2 grits. The first head can be rougher so it won't load up as fast. The second head is barely removing the scratches from the first drum, so it isn't working as hard. Performax made double drums that had a similar footprint to the 22/44, just a bit wider.

[george wilson]

To answer the question I was asked:The head of the Delta thickness sander is made of 1/8" thick steel,welded to the frame,and the head is quite rigid. The table moves up and down,and is made of cast iron,also is very non deflecting. You can easily adjust the ends of the 2 outboard elevating screws to make the wood absolutely the same thickness all over.You can also very slightly tilt the bed,so you can run 36" wide pieces through,so that the sanding peters out,and leaves no witness mark. The taper is too slight to be noticed.

Even so,you can't use grits below 120,so,the surfaces must still be gone over with finer grit paper. I love my sander. I use curly maple a lot.

The only complaint i've heard about the Delta,or any other sander that uses a continuous abrasive belt for conveying the wood through,is trying to keep the belt tracked. I had that problem with the Delta at work,but haven't had trouble with mine at home. It could be faults in making the belts.

Changing paper is really easy. I advise against the double drum sanders.1:I could NEVER get the 2 I've had to sand the wood parallel in thickness. I put shims to no avail under the pillow block bearings,but never got accurate results established. 2: The sandpaper had to be attached with strapping tape,so it was never changed.Just too much trouble.

If you have seen my work,you will know I like perfection. The Delta satisfies me.

[Steven Valentine]

As a youg guy on a tight budget, I just built my 30" sander from Stockroom Supply in Canada (you gotta watch their pricing as some of it is Canadian $, and it's a little tricky finding their US pricing on their website)...it's a manual feed, but where else would I get a 30" capacity sander for $350, plus the $125 for the Grizzly motor? Built the box out of scrap plywood. Takes a max of 1/16" of stock but sanders aren't meant to remove more with each pass.

[J.R. Rutter]

Changing paper is really easy. I advise against the double drum sanders.1:I could NEVER get the 2 I've had to sand the wood parallel in thickness. I put shims to no avail under the pillow block bearings,but never got accurate results established. 2: The sandpaper had to be attached with strapping tape,so it was never changed.Just too much trouble.


Sounds like the Delta is a nice one - more rigid than the Performax. Do they have a polymer feed belt available? I put one on my Performax and it was much better than the sandpaper.

What double drum did you have? The Extrema that I had was built like a tank, had a steel first drum and rubber second drum, had spring clips for attaching wraps that actually worked, and made many thousands of flat panels and doors in the years that I owned it.

[Chip Lindley]

*Dialing-In* of the 2nd drum is available only on the newer models like the Griz-X Series, etc. Older 2-drum sanders are quite disapointing as to any expectation of a finer grit cleaning up scratches made by the first heavier grit drum. I resign myself to this fact with an older Griz 1066 and use the same grit on BOTH drums, effectively doubling my sanding effort.

IMO, THE *Cadillac* of single drum sanders is Woodmaster! Expensive in their own right, they perform very nicely, when not Pushed! Other, smaller, cheaper solutions are available, but I am holding out for a Woodmaster 52"! Coarse/fine grits 24" wide could be wound onto the drum, side-by-side! Sand everything to same thickness with 80g, then clean it up with 120-180g. It works for ME!

[george wilson]

I have had both types of feed belts,and find the sandpaper MUCH better. The wood sinks into the rubber types,which tends to round off the wood .The sandpaper type is more accurate especially for thin wood,like for guitars. I don't think you can get rubber type belts for the Delta.

[Peter Quinn]

Sarge, once I learned to use it I find 1 3/4HP is fine for the 22-44. Needs a dedicated 20A circuit, nothing else on it, not even a light bulb! I take off .010"-.015" per pass max, not much different than how I use a widebelt, but I cant pass a full size passage door through my drum sander. I have stalled it dead by taking too deep a pass, but then I have done that with a wide belt too. I think a dual drum would need at least double the HP.

The performax i have is a WMH, it has jet knobs on it, probably pretty similar to the new one. I understand Supermax was sold back to the original makers from which performax was originally purchased, and they now make the more industrial end of the old performax line under the Supermax name. Performax is now used to label some really poor tools marked by WMH, and the Jet name appears on all that used to be Performax 22-44 or 16-32 sanders.

I am happy with my sander. I understand the new ones have some kind of ampmeter circuit that automatically adjust feed speed to drum motor load to maximize performance which would be a good feature on any sander if it renders well. i have to guess and adjust my feed speed manually.

[Jeff Heil]

I have the 16/32 and use it mostly for sanding resawn boards and end grain cutting boards. It works well for light passes with smaller pieces. I don't use it for final sanding as it can leave marks even in the higher grits that are difficult to remove without lots of sanding with a random orbit sander or card scraper. Plan on infeed and outfeed support to make it most effective. I use mine much less than I expected when I bought it a couple years ago. It is invaluable for sanding thin boards after resawing and for the end grain cutting boards I like to make.