power sharpening vs hand sharpening

[Justin Cavender]

I am trying to decide what to do with an extra hundred I have I am currently using paper on glass up to .3 micron and am debating a wet grinder or 8000x waterstone any opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[David Gendron]

I would go with the 8000x waterstone, I mean they wouldn't do the same thing anyway, you would use the grinder to reshape and the 8k for final edge honing! and if you go the 8k route, I have the Northon water stone but know that the shapton glass stone are realy popular since they dont need as much maintenance.
I don't own a wet grinder! And I don't think you have to have them to do good sharpening! that said, I'm sure you would save time when reshaping but that happen only once in a wile!
DAvid

[Jim Koepke]

Even Neanders can often benefit from having some power when it comes to sharpening. My system is a flat disk with changeable PSA sheets. When a blade gets a serious nick or becomes real dull, it can save a lot of time.

If you have a lot of blades, power will come in handy. Especially if you plan on buying a lot of used equipment.

My next sharpening device may already be in my brother's possession. He has found a large foot powered wheel that he will be bringing up with him when he visits in a few weeks.

A wheel can give a nice hollow grind that can not be achieved with a flat disk system.

jim

[Gary Herrmann]

One of these days I'm going to get a flat disc sharpening system. It would save so much time when tuning up old chisels.

[Mike Henderson]

For most hobbyist, a power sharpening system doesn't get a lot of use. Something like a Tormek will cost you quite a few hundred dollars by the time you figure in all the jigs.

Mike

[Joe Hardesty]

For most hobbyist, a power sharpening system doesn't get a lot of use.

I agree. And while they can be fast for prepping a blade, they can also do a lot of damage just as quickly. One small misalignment and you can take off a lot of metal that you didn't intend.

I just sold my Tormek and don't plan to replace it. Diamond stones for coarse work and water stones for fine work do the job. Even sandpaper on glass (Scary Sharp System) is a good alternative for some tasks.

[Tri Hoang]

In my personal experience, power sharpening does not necessary give the same results faster. Flattening the back of irons/chisels is the only time I find power sharpening save time for me. I've been through Worksharp 3000, Lee Valley Power MK II, Tormek clone (Grizzly/Jet). I've settled down with the Grizzly to hollow grind, 1000/4000/8000 stones, and stropping.

The addition of the 8000x stone would make your routine a little awkward. Just stick with one you've got unless you are unhappy with the results.

I now own a few Shapton glass stones. They cut fast, significantly faster than my King waterstones. They stay flat longer, but not much longer. I still need to lap it with my diamond plate.

The key is to find an efficient routine that give you the results you want and stick with it. Build your routine/sharpening station so that you can sharpen with minimal effort. Once you find that you no longer fret sharpening and actually enjoying it, you've got a good routine.

[Jim Koepke]

In my personal experience, power sharpening does not necessary give the same results faster. Flattening the back of irons/chisels is the only time I find power sharpening save time for me. I've been through Worksharp 3000, Lee Valley Power MK II, Tormek clone (Grizzly/Jet). I've settled down with the Grizzly to hollow grind, 1000/4000/8000 stones, and stropping.

Doing a lot of end grain can really dull a blade. In my experience, it is a lot quicker to give the blade a little touch up on a medium grit with power before going to the stones.

Most of the time, I do not use secondary bevels, back bevels, cambers or the ruler trick. This does not mean that you should not use them, it just means that they have not found to be advantageous for me.

YMMV

Everyone must find their own best way. When ever the question comes up, there is plenty of evidence to support the many varied ways of putting an edge on a piece of metal.

jim

[Julian Nicks]

I use a mix of both. If needed I will use the bench grinder to reestablish the edge, then use sandpaper on granite up to 1000 grit. Then I use a 3/4" particle board disc on the bench grinder loaded with jewelers rouge for the final edge. All it takes is a few seconds using the side of the disc on each side of the chisel or plane, then strop it, and go to work. I also just use the particle board wheel and rouge for touch ups when needed, and I don't need to go back to the paper of grinder unless I damage the edge by dropping it. I get razor sharp edges without alot of fuss.

[Sam Takeuchi]

I think if you are happy with paper on glass setup, probably it's ok as it is. You already hone blades with scary sharp, right? If you do, do you want to get a 8k stone to do the same?

Grinder would be a nice addition, though. I was so close to getting one a few weeks ago, but I ended up not getting it, because I know it's handy to have but I wouldn't use it often enough to justify the space it'd occupy. I still want one, but I'm glad I didn't get one.

If I had an extra hundred, I'd buy a plane (a block plane perhaps?) or replacement blades so I have more blades to sharpen. Eventually I'll have enough blades to justify buying a grinder :D

[David Keller NC]

"I am trying to decide what to do with an extra hundred I have I am currently using paper on glass up to .3 micron and am debating a wet grinder or 8000x waterstone any opinions would be greatly appreciated. "

While it is true that you can get by without a wheel grinder (whether that be power or a hand-cranked one), having one will vastly reduce the amount of time you spend sharpening and up-keep on your plane blades and chisels.

If you're only working with flat stones, sandpaper on granite, or a flat disc grinder, the bevel you produce will be flat, or if not done carefully, convex. That means that as you continue to hone on a fine grit stone to restore the edge from slightly dull to razor sharp, the cutting angle will continue to increase (and the bevel will become more convex). At some point, a bevel-down plane will no longer cut because the rounded bevel will contact the wood first before the edge, and on a bevel up plane, the effort required to push the plane will increase to the point where it's obnoxious, and the surface that results will be a scraped surface, not a planed one.

At this point, you must re-grind the bevel. If you've the equipment to grind a flat bevel (sandpaper, stone, etc...), you will have to grind the entire surface of the bevel to restore it to its former geometry. That's a boatload of work. Moreover, you will need to hone the entire bevel on the medium stones/sandpaper, which is also a lot of work. Only the very last part of the sharpening process will allow you to only hone a very small portion - the microbevel (if you use one).

This is where a wheel grinder yields a massive advantage. With a hollow-ground (concave) bevel, when honing the bevel will only contact the stone at the very back of the bevel, and the very edge. That allows you, if you so wish, to dispense with the micro-bevel and you can hone only on your finest grit stone/paper many times before the bevel flattens out and it's time to put it back on the wheel.

One of the main advantages of the concave bevel + honing stones approach is that so long as you use the two points of contact during the honing process (the back of the bevel and the edge), the blade's geometry won't change no matter how many times you hone it up until the point that the narrow strip of "concaveness" dissappears.

I consider some sort of wheel grinder a necessity - I would spend many, many more hours sharpening than I do without it, and that would really mess up my efficiency.

[Scott Stafford]

Tri,

I've recently purchased a set of Shapton glass stones and need a flattening plate. Which one are you using?

Scott in Montana

[Justin Cavender]

The problem I am having is that it takes forever to regrind on paper and the high grit paper isnt available locally and has to be mail ordered I was thinking with the power sharpener it has a leather strop wheel and I could buy jewellers rouge for honing and easily grind my bevel. Also my mom is a dog groomer and the grinder and leather wheel will sharpen scissors and hopefully pay for itself.

[David Gendron]

Then Justin, you got your answer right there... From what you just wrote, you should go with a good wet grinder! Wiche one is now the real question and you will get a lot of defferent answers!!
David

[Justin Cavender]

http://grizzly.com/products/8-Grinder-Sharpener/T10097 this is the one I'm looking at and I can buy a scissor knife and axe jig for 55.00 and hopefully learn how to do scissors to pay for it

[David Gendron]

For that price, i don't think you make a mistak! What is the adventages of the 8" over the 10" weels?

[Joel Moskowitz]

I think a power strop is more likely to destroy a scissors used for hair than sharpen it. The reason is that strops have give and when you sharpen scissors what you are trying to do is create very crisp edges on the blades. Professionals are very picky about their scissors and AFAIK professional scissor sharpening machines use hard abrasives and many barbers use special diamond stones (scissors are commonly surgical stainless which is tough to do with many traditional means.

Do some google searching before you commit to a power strop or talk to someone who sharpens scissors professionally. I could be wrong.

I personally think all consumer wet grinders are way too slow to merit consideration.

[David Gendron]

Joel, what are your suggestions on a power sharpening tool?

[Sam Takeuchi]

...temptation...rising...

[Joel Moskowitz]

Joel, what are your suggestions on a power sharpening tool?

I don't have one. If you read my FWW article on grinding I can easily put a hollow grind to a wire edge in a minute or two (including rest setting, wheel dressing, and turing hte machine on etc) then a minute or two honing. inital prep - flattening the tip of the back (more than that is not only a waste of time but potentially detrimental) takes under 5 minutes or the manufacturer gets yelled at. I use diamond stones for tough cases - 1000 grit freshly flattened waterstones for everything else.

The key of course is practice and good technique. The wet grinding machines are all way to slow for me, and while I used a $50 grinder for 20 years I got a Baldor last year. A top of the line Baldor with the right wheels and a dress costs less than a tormak and needed accessories by a lot.

[Justin Cavender]

Okay instead of mail ordering the super fine lapping film all the time what would be a reccomendation for a good water stone for final polishing?

[Wilbur Pan]

The problem I am having is that it takes forever to regrind on paper and the high grit paper isnt available locally and has to be mail ordered

Have you looked at an auto parts store? The local Pep Boys has wet/dry snadpaper up to 2000 grit.

Alternatively, make friends with a local body shop.

[Justin Cavender]

I have 2000 paper but I just ordered some 8000 1 micron and 18000 .3 micron and there is a world of difference escpecially when I plane rock maple wich I use very frequently sharpened on the 2000 grit maple is impossible to sharpen. So I want to repeat my edge without buying $4.00 sheets of paper all of the time.

[David Keller NC]

Justin - I've used King, Norton, and a few others in 6,000, 8,000, and 10,000 grits as a final polishing stone. All are good, adn I wouldn't sweat which brand all that much. Joel sells a number of choices at Tools for Working Wood. Since you already have the flat substrate for paper, you can use some 220 wet/dry paper to flatten the waterstone - it isn't necessary to get a diamond stone for this purpose.

Joel is quite right about the slowness of water grinders. I have a Tormek, and do use it, but if I was doing a lot of grinding (like if I was making tools or was doing a lot of turning), I would have a dry grinder. You can burn the edge on a dry grinder, but the open-grit wheels that Joel and others sell, together with a cup of water to cool the tool down frequently should keep you out of trouble.

[Tri Hoang]

http://grizzly.com/products/8-Grinder-Sharpener/T10097 this is the one I'm looking at and I can buy a scissor knife and axe jig for 55.00 and hopefully learn how to do scissors to pay for it

You need a truing tool for the wheel as well. Without one, you'll find that you don't have a straight edge when done grinding. The straight edge jig that comes with the machine is poorly built and won't align the blade square to the wheel. With add-ons, it may cost twice as much!

[David DeCristoforo]

Fascinating discussion! Using (gasp) power to sharpen you hand tools! For many years, I was one of those who would not "compromise" on this. With great devotion, I insisted on grinding out every little nick on a course water stone. Secretly I always wanted to at least try a power grinder for the initial work. Then, one day few years ago, a friend bought a Tormek grinder to replace the "cheapo" Delta wet grinder he had and I picked the Delta up for a song. I have to say that now I would be lost without it. It makes short work of the initial grinding/honing and from there it's a quick finish on the finer stones. And I have discovered (or have allowed myself to admit) that I much prefer spending my time cutting wood than sharpening!

[Greg Crawford]

I have a friend that uses the same grinder as David. I don't know if Delta still makes it, but Grizzly has one like it, the G1036 http://www.grizzly.com/products/g1036

I've used a Tormek to put a nice hollow grind on some tools, but wide plane blades can come off very crooked (maybe I'm just too uncoordinated), so I don't borrow it any more (showed 'em, huh). I use a 6" POS Ryobi bench grinder with the Lee Valley tool rest and guide http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32975&cat=1,43072,45938 and use great care not to blue edges.

If I were to go to a wet stone setup (which I may soon), I would get the Grizzly grinder with the heavy duty tool rest http://www.grizzly.com/products/Optional-Heavy-Duty-Tool-Rest/G8987 and use my Veritas jig (an Accusharp is about the same). It would give a good hollow grind, then the final honing on a wet stone, oil stone, sandpaper, ceramic, etc. wouldn't be much work.

My friend uses his Delta for turning tools as well, just using the flat tool rest. And yes, a truing tool for the wheel is a must.

[Paul Grant]

For most hobbyist, a power sharpening system doesn't get a lot of use. Something like a Tormek will cost you quite a few hundred dollars by the time you figure in all the jigs.

Mike

The flip side of that is if you only have an evening or two plus a bit of time on the weekend to woodwork, do you want to spend it sharpening or building ??

[Bill Houghton]

I have a friend that uses the same grinder as David. I don't know if Delta still makes it, but Grizzly has one like it, the G1036 http://www.grizzly.com/products/g1036

I've used a Tormek to put a nice hollow grind on some tools, but wide plane blades can come off very crooked (maybe I'm just too uncoordinated), so I don't borrow it any more (showed 'em, huh). I use a 6" POS Ryobi bench grinder with the Lee Valley tool rest and guide http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32975&cat=1,43072,45938 and use great care not to blue edges.

If I were to go to a wet stone setup (which I may soon), I would get the Grizzly grinder with the heavy duty tool rest http://www.grizzly.com/products/Optional-Heavy-Duty-Tool-Rest/G8987 and use my Veritas jig (an Accusharp is about the same). It would give a good hollow grind, then the final honing on a wet stone, oil stone, sandpaper, ceramic, etc. wouldn't be much work.

My friend uses his Delta for turning tools as well, just using the flat tool rest. And yes, a truing tool for the wheel is a must.

Delta doesn't list it anymore, so I assume they don't make it. Mine came with a tool rest similar to Grizzly's heavy duty rest. I have found that the wheel glazes up with great enthusiasm, so I have to deglaze it regularly. I've been using one of those carbide sticks, but recently got a Lee Valley diamond-crystals-on-a-stick and am looking forward to trying that out (I have a sharpening party coming up soon).

It's a good tool, but, as others have mentioned, wet grinding is VERY slow.

[Dave Cav]

I use the Lee Valley belt sander/grinder for initial bevel grinding, and a hard felt wheel and green compound for the final hone. It seems to get everything acceptably sharp and is pretty fast. It's also not messy, and didnt' cost a fortune to set up. I have the same setup at school, where the big advantages are (1) speed, and (2) I can show a student how to get an acceptable edge pretty quickly, and then HE can keep the chisels and lathe gouges sharp. The main disadvantage to this system is that it's not particularly portable.

I do use the scary sharp system when I get a "new" plane or chisel, mostly to flatten the back.

I have a couple of waterstones, but I'm not a big fan of them. They are messy, don't stay flat, and since my shop isn't heated, they can freeze. If I decide to go back to any kind of stones they will be oil stones.

[Mike Henderson]

I have the same setup at school, where the big advantages are (1) speed, and (2) I can show a student how to get an acceptable edge pretty quickly, and then HE can keep the chisels and lathe gouges sharp.
You should open your classes to women. The woodworking school I attend has a significant number of women students. It could double your class sizes.

Mike

[Tim Put]

I think you're reading in a bit too much there. I don't think "he" was meant as "he" as opposed to "she", only "he"-the-student as opposed to Dave-the-teacher, regardless of the actual gender of "he"-the-student.

[Mike Henderson]

I think you're reading in a bit too much there. I don't think "he" was meant as "he" as opposed to "she", only "he"-the-student as opposed to Dave-the-teacher, regardless of the actual gender of "he"-the-student.
Perhaps you're not reading enough into it. If someone wanted to indicate that they had students of both sexes, they would say something like one of the following and would not capitalize HE:

1. ...acceptable edge pretty quickly, and then they can keep the chisels and lathe gouges sharp.

2. ...acceptable edge pretty quickly, and then the student can keep the chisels and lathe gouges sharp

3. ...acceptable edge pretty quickly, and then S/HE can keep the chisels and lathe gouges sharp

Any of which is better than using just "he" and especially a capitalized "HE". In the past twenty to thirty years we have moved a bit past the excuse of using the masculine pronoun to encompass both genders.

Mike

[I'll just add a note about "political correctness". In general, it's people who are not part of the excluded class that cry "political correctness". What the people in the excluded class are asking for is recognition that they exist.]

[Dave Cav]

I was going to write a long diatribe on political correctness and the problems with our educational system, but the short answer is that I teach at a large public high school with a very mixed enrollment. My classes are open to all. I have over 100 students. Two are female, and one actually shows up on a regular basis. I try to make the best of what I have.

[George Sanders]

I have a wet grinder made by Prairie Tool co. It runs off a jackshaft for slow speed. They went out of business 2 years ago. I use it to get a chisel or plane blade reasonably squared up and an approximate angle that I want. Then I use a rolling jig on a piece of granite with sandpaper. A lot of the chisels and planes I find have really been abused and getting them back in usable condition would take too long without the wet grinder.

[David Keller NC]

"I've used a Tormek to put a nice hollow grind on some tools, but wide plane blades can come off very crooked (maybe I'm just too uncoordinated), so I don't borrow it any more (showed 'em, huh).

To those reading this considering a wet grinder, there's a very easy and quick method to getting your blade edge square to the stone on one of these:

Put the blade into the holder, and adjust the extension of the guide arm and/or the blade in the holder to get the correct grinding angle. Then, without starting the grinder, move the blade's bevel back and forth across the entire width of the stone. Take the holder off of the guide arm and look at the bevel - if there are scratches across the entire width of the bevel, and the width of the band of scratches is roughly the same width across the entire bevel, then you've got your edge square to teh stone. If not, use a small plane-adjusting hammer or something similar to tap the back of the blade in the holder to skew it slightly. Put the blade and holder back on the grinder, and repeat until you've got the blade square.

Generally, this takes about 20 seconds (and is a lot longer to read than it is to do).

[Verne Mattson]

I know a lot of folks don't particularly care for it, but I really like my Makita 9820 wet grinder. I've had great success sharpening my jointer and planer knives with it. Recently I bought the 60 grit stone for it and reground the bevel on an old chisel for practice. It works very fast - nearly as fast as my 6" grinder with a white wheel. I went from the 60 grit, changed to the 1000 grit for more of a polish, then finished on my Shapton stones, going to 8000 grit. I don't think I'd ever consider a plane iron or chisel edge finished just by grinding it on my Makita with the 1000 grit stone.

As much as I like my Makita, I wouldn't give up my high speed grinder because I sharpen my lawn mower blades with it...

Come to think of it, the Makita coupled with the grinder, coupled with water stones, you could sharpen anything you want around shop and around the house. But that's what works for me, and that's what I've accumulated over the years.

Good luck. There is never one right answer when it comes to sharpening, it seems.

[Bill Houghton]

To those reading this considering a wet grinder, there's a very easy and quick method to getting your blade edge square to the stone on one of these:

Put the blade into the holder, and adjust the extension of the guide arm and/or the blade in the holder to get the correct grinding angle. Then, without starting the grinder, move the blade's bevel back and forth across the entire width of the stone. Take the holder off of the guide arm and look at the bevel - if there are scratches across the entire width of the bevel, and the width of the band of scratches is roughly the same width across the entire bevel, then you've got your edge square to teh stone. If not, use a small plane-adjusting hammer or something similar to tap the back of the blade in the holder to skew it slightly. Put the blade and holder back on the grinder, and repeat until you've got the blade square.

Generally, this takes about 20 seconds (and is a lot longer to read than it is to do).

This assumes, of course, that the bevel is ground square to the blade to start with - checking that with a small square should be the first step for any new-to-owner blade.

[David Keller NC]

"This assumes, of course, that the bevel is ground square to the blade to start with - checking that with a small square should be the first step for any new-to-owner blade."

True enough. When I've an antique blade (that probably wasn't ground straight from the factory in the first place, and sure isn't straight after 3 generations of craftsmen have "touched it up"), I use a small square and a scratch awl to define a square line across the back of the blade as close as possible to the edge and still get a continuous line straight across. The "as close to the edge" bit is really important - it drastically decreases the work to grind a straight edge on a wet grinder.

Then, I set the holder at 90 degrees to the stone and grind back to the line. The 90 degree part makes the edge-truing go faster, and more importantly, leaves you with a small flat on the end of the blade. If the blade wasn't square, that flat will not be the same width all the way across the bevel.

That variation in width is very helpful - what one then does is grind (I usually do it free-hand) the bevel such that the 90 degree flat is brought to uniform thickness, and reduced in width to the point where it can just barely be seen under magnification.

At that point, I go to the whetstones - the hollow grind means that I can skip the 1000 and 4000 grit stones and go straight to the 8000. Not only does skipping the coarser stones save time, it also helps to preserve the bevel geometry I've so carefully prepared - in this particular case, the fewer passes you can make down the stone and still get the barest glint of highly polished metal all the way out to the edge, the better.