SawStop still requires the use of your brain...

[Alan DuBoff]

In recent months, the SawStop seems to be the save all of woodworking tools, yet the table saw is only one tool in most shops.

My son was recently accepted to UCLA's Design/Media Art program, and we were visiting the campus for Open House.

The Design/Media Art program is more than your typical art program, it is designed to prepare kids for the future, to not only be able to design but create, and as such they have a shop there, and all the kids get to learn things like welding in their first year.

Not to my surprise was a SawStop in the shop, that would be expected at a large institution like UCLA. The students had no idea what the SawStop was, or what type of safety device it incorporates. What the students I talked to knew, was that you must be careful or material can be launced from the tablesaw, or what us woodworkers call kickback.

The SawStop can prevent someone from putting their hand into the blade, but it can't stop them from not using their brain. As such, UCLA leaves the piece of wood in the wall where it was launched from the SawStop, as a reminder that one needs to be thinking, and be safe when using such a tool.

Moral of the story...there is no substitute for a brain in the shop.;)

[Bob Genovesi]

Alan,

I agree completely but you and I will not make allot of friends with this thinking!

For some reason we fall prey to gimmicks and yes I'm sorry to say that I put this into that category.

SawStop appears to be a quality saw and its safety technology is pretty darn slick when you need it but it's NOT a cure-all for inattention and carelessness. Some will say; "sure Bob, you can say this now but if you accidentally run your finger into the blade you'll be glad you have it". While this statement could not be more true it still does not replace inattention, carelessness, and common sense. Now for those who have countless battle scars from past incidents than maybe it is a wise investment.

I've been woodworking for 40 years and have never nicked myself not even once. I am careful and do use those simple devices that make sense; safety glasses, hearing protection when running certain machines, a variety of push sticks, I even installed a metal dowel in my saws throat plate to minimize kickbacks.

Woodworking tools are dangerous, much like firearms and they must be respected. No matter how hard you try you can not engineer out inattention, carelessness, and a lack common sense, it's like trying to eliminate stupidity through legislation.

We're all very intelligent, we just need to pay attention...

[David DeCristoforo]

"I've been woodworking for 40 years and have never nicked myself not even once. I am careful..."

Please... don't say things like that. You can easily attract the attention of the "evil eye". I would strongly recommend that you go out to your shop at once and sacrifice a live chicken.

[Cody Colston]

That's disappointing. I was convinced the Sawstop could even cure cancer and was considering purchasing one. Now you're telling me I have to THINK when using it? :D

[John Thompson]

You are totally correct and it's a fact that SS cannot.. and will not do anything any other TS comparatively equipped can't do to stop a kick-back. But.. I have already stated that so many times in various places I have lost count. The SS is an excellent stand alone saw but.... no better or worse in WW'ing results or avoiding kick-back which can injure you.

BTW.. I have a hole in a sheet-rock wall and a partial hole in the one behind it 20' behind my TS from a launch of a piece of 2" stock. And mine cost $2 K less. Just goes to show there is some value still left out there if you look hard enough. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Sarge..

[Peter Gregory]

I don't have one, but they include a complementary riving knife (http://www.sawstop.com/cabinet/cab_features.php) with that saw. If you have the knife in and can still spin a piece of plywood across the room, that is an accomplishment.

I think the are doing a great job changing the situation from having safety problems eventually, to having safety problems if you are really, really stupid. If I were to buy an American style saw, I would buy one of their saws. Simple insurance.

[Mark Vedder]

The SawStop's brake technology is only designed to prevent one type of accident. It does not make it a perfect saw on which an accident will never happen. It simply (greatly) reduces the likelihood of one type of accident. A car's airbag does not prevent whiplash if you are rear ended. But that doesn't mean the air bag is useless. I don't plan on having a head-on collision. Doesn't mean I don't want the airbag :)

The riving knife will help reduce the risk of kickback, but it doesn't eliminate it completely. Just like a seat belt pretensioner prevents submarining and reduces whiplash occurrences, but does not completely eliminate it.

I don't think there is any safety equipment or feature on anything that can completely eliminate the risk of an accident. But every bit helps, especially those that prevent a large number of injuries, or reduces the severity of an injury.

Just my ever so humble opinion.

[David DeCristoforo]

"The riving knife will help reduce the risk of kickback..."

This is only one "function" of the riving knife. Because it does not obstruct "non through" cuts or create any visual impediment, it has a much stronger chance of actually being left in place on the machine. And it provides an effective barrier between the blade and the operator's hand when that hand is "behind" the blade.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

"I've been woodworking for 40 years and have never nicked myself not even once. I am careful..."

Please... don't say things like that. You can easily attract the attention of the "evil eye". I would strongly recommend that you go out to your shop at once and sacrifice a live chicken.

David, That is so funny! I'm going to get my chicken right now so I'm safe in the shop. Thanks for the tip. Alan

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I'm going to get my chicken right now..."

If you do it right you can still eat the chicken....

[Paul Ryan]

Can I just use a bucket of extra crispy or do I have to have a live chicken?

I don't have any live ones right now, and the neighbor might take it out on my dog if they are missing one.

[Randal Stevenson]

Not to my surprise was a SawStop in the shop, that would be expected at a large institution like UCLA. The students had no idea what the SawStop was, or what type of safety device it incorporates. What the students I talked to knew, was that you must be careful or material can be launced from the tablesaw, or what us woodworkers call kickback.

Moral of the story...there is no substitute for a brain in the shop.;)

While I am happy that it is getting out there in educational environments, there are other things they could also do to help accident reductions. Crown for that style fence, or a different fence, one adjustible like the Unifence for sure (you don't always need a long fence). But MOST importantly, I would hope these kids learn about what a Sawstop does differently from other saws, especially in the case of a trigger. It would be one thing if no trigger ever happened around them and they didn't know that feature. It is another if they see a trigger, and assume all saws have that, and lose a digit elsewhere.

[David DeCristoforo]

"Can I just use a bucket of extra crispy..."

No. It must be a live chicken to have any effect. Like I said, afterwards, you can still eat the chicken...

[Peter Gregory]

Can I just use a bucket of extra crispy or do I have to have a live chicken?

I don't have any live ones right now, and the neighbor might take is out on my dog if they are missing one.

There was a coupon for a free piece of KFC grilled chicken in the paper last week. If I don't eat it, maybe this would be best use?

[Andrew Joiner]

"I've been woodworking for 40 years and have never nicked myself not even once. I am careful..."

Please... don't say things like that. You can easily attract the attention of the "evil eye". I would strongly recommend that you go out to your shop at once and sacrifice a live chicken.

I think this is a great idea. Be sure to have an extra saw blade and brake cartridge on hand. Chicken blood will activate the Sawstop brake.

[Peter Gregory]

The riving knife will help reduce the risk of kickback, but it doesn't eliminate it completely. Just like a seat belt pretensioner prevents submarining and reduces whiplash occurrences, but does not completely eliminate it.

You are pointing out that to get kickback with a riving knife, you can be really stupid or really unlucky? OK, I agree. If you are really unlucky, you can get kickback.

Let's start a new thread about this, I'm interested.

[David DeCristoforo]

Here's an example. You are ripping a piece of material and as your cut progresses, the material begins to pinch the blade. The riving knife is there to resist the cut closing but between the knife and you there is still a spinning (and now starting to burn) saw blade. As the blade heats up, it begins to warp and the kerf now becomes wider than the thickness of the riving knife. The next thing that is going to happen is that the blade is going to try to pull the material off the table at the "back" of the blade and if it is able to get enough "lift", the piece can be thrown back at you or the back edge can head for your face. Of course, we would hope that you ware able to somehow hang on to this piece of twisting, smoking wood with one hand while you hit the off button with the other. Sounds like fun, no? The joys of woodworking!

[Grant Vanbokklen]

Maybe he should go to USC...

[Alan DuBoff]

Maybe he should go to USC...
No such chance. I grew up in L.A. and know that area all too well. My son will not go to USC if I have anything to do with it.;)

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Can I just use a bucket of extra crispy or do I have to have a live chicken?

I don't have any live ones right now, and the neighbor might take it out on my dog if they are missing one.

Paul, Of course it has to be a live one. The fried ones have already been "sacrificed" so that really makes no sense.

[David DeCristoforo]

"The fried ones have already been "sacrificed"..."

Now that's a good point!

[Neal Clayton]

"I've been woodworking for 40 years and have never nicked myself not even once. I am careful..."

Please... don't say things like that. You can easily attract the attention of the "evil eye". I would strongly recommend that you go out to your shop at once and sacrifice a live chicken.

well, to steer the thread completely OT....

david, my recent reading leads me to question that solution.

i've been reading a book written by a biologist from harvard by the name of Wade Davis concerning the 'zombie poisons' that are commonly made in the backwoods of haiti and africa.

turns out the means of judging the success or failure of zombie creation, chicken sacrifice, and any or all things in between is much like the means of, say, a politician's gauge of his own success or failure.

if it works he's the hero, if not, it's someone else's fault.

so i'm not sure that chicken sacrifice carries a high success rate.

either way, the book is a good read.

[Don Bullock]

...
Moral of the story...there is no substitute for a brain in the shop.;)

That's for sure. Actually I find that having spent all that money on a SawStop is a constant reminder that I need to work safely in the shop.

As for the chicken sacrifice, can I substitute a ground squirrel? I seem to have an overabundance of them on my property this spring. ;)

[John Coloccia]

I've been alive for 35 years and never had a fire, yet I keep a fire extinguisher around...

...even though it doesn't prevent kickback on my table saw.


:D


How would a kickback occur with the riving knife installed? I could see it reject the wood, but to kick back you have to get in back or on top of the blade. Does the RK just bend out of the way, or something?

[Rob Price]

Man, I'm sure glad you guys posted about this. Ever since I got my Sawstop I've been leaving my brain upstairs in the house. I thought this thing magically protected me from all hazards in the shop. I've been using it with the lights out, beer in one hand, live chicken in the other. I push the wood through with my face.

I'll have to change my practices apparently.

PS- if you use the bypass key, the chicken slides through no problem. Some blood gets on the gears though, and you need to clean it quickly or rust can be a problem.

About the riving knife, there is a small gap between the blade and the knife where a piece could bind (assuming it's installed properly). Like any piece of machinery it's not fool proof- there's always a better fool out there. But if I have a problem with work piece that's pinching and smoking and melting my blade, I'm hitting the shutoff switch with my knee and not taking my hands off the work piece.

[Larry Edgerton]

Is there a demonstration of the saw stop working in a kickback? I have never known anyone to just run their hand into the sawblade, although I'm sure it happens. Most of the professionals I associate with have had an accident or two, and kickback is one of the more common issues. Stuff happens fast. If the blade gets full traction the piece is coming back at you at aprox 110 mph, and if you have your hand on the other side of the blade, well you are just not that quick. So I would like to see a demonstration of that sort.You know, tape a hot dog to a board and induce a kickback.

[John Coloccia]

If you're wondering if the SS is effective, or just a gimmick, look here.

http://www.sawstop.com/finger_saves.php

There are hundreds of folks (and maybe more, now) across the country that still have their fingers thanks to the SS.

You know, I'm an avid shooter and firearm instructor. I've never had a gun accidentally go off because I'm always careful about how I handle the firearm, and where my fingers are. That doesn't mean I leave all the guns in my house loaded 100% of the time. Common sense would dictate that the gun remain unloaded until there's some reason to keep it loaded, in addition to safe handling practices.

Common sense in the workshop would dictate you try and make your work environment as safe as possible IN ADDITION to safe practices. One is a poor substitute for the other.

I just can't believe all the negativity against the SS, not just here but on the other forums I lurk on.

By the way, if people don't just run their hands into blades, why so many bandsaw accidents? Kickback? Don't think so. People run their hands into blades. They also grab the workpiece before the fly cutter stops turning (ALMOST did that once myself), and they take off their thumbs with chop saws.

There's still folks every year that space out and loose hands trying to clear clogs on their STILL RUNNING snow blowers. You can call them idiots, but it's not that hard to get a little distracted and just space out for a second. All it takes is a second and exactly the wrong time.

[Brian Penning]

Alan,
For some reason we fall prey to gimmicks and yes I'm sorry to say that I put this into that category.

That's a poor statement imo. Equivalent to saying airbags are a gimmick.

Meanwhile I'm still trying to figure out how to kill a chicken on a Sawstop.....can see the ad now..."Save a chicken today, use a Sawstop!" :)

[george wilson]

I am waiting for further refinements on the SS.I found the one we bought for my old job to be a bit of a pain.Couldn't use othe than 10" blades,had to buy the 8" dado,and the special dado brake. I have several little 6" blades I like to use for cutting fret slots in guitar fingerboards. I still have my old,but still perfectly good 1964 Dewalt table saw. It is much smoother,and more heavily built than a Unisaw.

[Dan Lee]

If you're wondering if the SS is effective, or just a gimmick, look here.

http://www.sawstop.com/finger_saves.php

There are hundreds of folks (and maybe more, now) across the country that still have their fingers thanks to the SS.

You know, I'm an avid shooter and firearm instructor. I've never had a gun accidentally go off because I'm always careful about how I handle the firearm, and where my fingers are. That doesn't mean I leave all the guns in my house loaded 100% of the time. Common sense would dictate that the gun remain unloaded until there's some reason to keep it loaded, in addition to safe handling practices.

Common sense in the workshop would dictate you try and make your work environment as safe as possible IN ADDITION to safe practices. One is a poor substitute for the other.

I just can't believe all the negativity against the SS, not just here but on the other forums I lurk on.

By the way, if people don't just run their hands into blades, why so many bandsaw accidents? Kickback? Don't think so. People run their hands into blades. They also grab the workpiece before the fly cutter stops turning (ALMOST did that once myself), and they take off their thumbs with chop saws.

There's still folks every year that space out and loose hands trying to clear clogs on their STILL RUNNING snow blowers. You can call them idiots, but it's not that hard to get a little distracted and just space out for a second. All it takes is a second and exactly the wrong time.

Come on John everyone knows ... buy a SS = park your brain at the door.
In fact page 302 of the owners manual says " you may now disregard all shop saftey practices that you have learned or been instructed to use because you now have your own personal angel"
BTW The SS inventor is evil too.
:rolleyes:

[Larry Edgerton]

I have a problem with the replacement cartridge cost and ruining of sawblades during false triggers. As a professional that cost and the associated downtime from a false trigger would seriously cut into my profit.

And I still have not seen a video of it working in a kickback.

Someone will come out with a better system soon with a brake that is not disposable and ruins expensive blades, and will allow special setups. The other saw companys are losing sales, and you can bet they are working on a better system Until then I'll run what I brung......

[Andrew Joiner]

PS- if you use the bypass key, the chicken slides through no problem. Some blood gets on the gears though, and you need to clean it quickly or rust can be a problem.



Good to know. But then you could saw off your fingers.

It would be safer to use a board to hold the chicken against the fence. Make sure this board presses firmly against the OUTSIDE of the bird.

This is why it's called a feather board.

[george wilson]

Even with the bypass key turned off,the SS will still not start unless you have used a 10" blade,and have the distance between the blade and the brake properly adjusted. I think it is a pain in the neck that the saw cannot be used with specialty blades even turned off.I don't get it. Why should the saw's safety system still have to be satisfied even if you turn the safety system off?

[Dan Lee]

Even with the bypass key turned off,the SS will still not start unless you have used a 10" blade,and have the distance between the blade and the brake properly adjusted. I think it is a pain in the neck that the saw cannot be used with specialty blades even turned off.I don't get it. Why should the saw's safety system still have to be satisfied even if you turn the safety system off?

Works with 8" dado including Freud box joint blades and appropiate cartridge. My understanding is moulding heads won't work. Don't know the answer to your last question

[Joe Jensen]

Really, I like many SawStop owners bought one specifcally to replace the need for a brain in the shop. Do you think they will let me return it, I mean seriously they have falsely advertised. Class Action Lawsuit?

[Rob Price]

This is why it's called a feather board.

:D:D:D. Funny stuff.

[Lance Miller]

I have a problem with the replacement cartridge cost and ruining of sawblades during false triggers. As a professional that cost and the associated downtime from a false trigger would seriously cut into my profit.


I have the same problem with the airbag in my car. I mean if it accidentally triggers, I have to replace the airbag. What kind of system is that? And don't get me started on having to refill my fire when I accidentally discharge it when there was no fire.

Give me a choice of losing a finger/hand or a blade... I'll take the blade. Heck, I'll buy ten new blades and brakes - one for each finger I still have. I don't know how you think you are going to stop a spinning blade in 5/1000's of a second without jamming something into it like that.

By the way... as stated on page 45 of the SawStop owner's manual: you can contact SawStop to get a shipping label to return the cartridge to them so they can retrieve data from it to continue to improve the technology. They will then send you a new brake free if they verify it was activated by contact with skin. If not, they will let you know why it was activated so you can prevent the accidental triggering it in the future.

Why is it you think there are false triggers? You sound as if you think the saw misfires a couple times a day. I've never had a misfire in a 1 1/2 years use. I've never heard an actual SawStop owner/user complain about false triggers. If you are unsure of the item you are cutting, just touch it to the blade before you turn the saw on. If the light blinks, you need to put it in bypass mode before cutting. No biggie. And the only thing you need to worry about is VERY wet wood and metal.

Have you talked to a pro shop that is actually using the SawStop? Are they having false triggering problems and thus losing profits? Or is this just speculation on your part?



And I still have not seen a video of it working in a kickback.

Not sure what you mean by that. The SawStop's brake mechanism doesn't activate for kickbacks. Only if the blade is touched by flesh, which could happen in a kickback. But that wouldn't be anything different than what you see in the standard video.

I also can't understand why all the negativity against the SawStop. I think it is a great innovation. If you don't think it's for you, fine... don't buy one. But it is mind blowing for people to claim it is a gimmick when it is documented to have saved people from serious injury. 20 years ago I saw someone cut his thumb off on a table saw. He got distracted "for just a second" watching the one side of the cut and was not paying attention to his guide hand and his hand slipped. I guarantee you he wishes SawStops where available back then. That's why I bought one. Plus even without the safety feature it holds its own against other saws in ALL the reviews I have read and from actual user feedback. I agree with that assessment, it's a GREAT saw. I just don't understand the negativity. Yes it's more expensive. New technology often is. Same reason cars with side curtain air bags cost more. Same reason cars with Dynamic Stability Control cost more. Same reason faster computers cost more. I hope I never have to find out how good the safety technology is. But if it I every do, I'll be glad I spent the extra money. Heck, I'll send SawStop another $4k as a thank you. :cool:

[David DeCristoforo]

OK, let's start a poll.

A) I would buy a Saw Stop no matter what the price, regardless of the state of the technology and I think that anyone who would not is a shortsighted idiot

B) I want it to be a law that everyone must get rid of whatever saws they have now and buy a Saw Stop.

C) I would never buy a Saw Stop and I think that anyone who would is a shortsighted idiot.

D) If Saw Stop technology is ever mandated by law, I'm leaving the country.

E) I don't give a rat's ***

F) All of the above.

G) None of the above.

[Rob Price]

Or Z) I bought a Sawstop because I want one. Anyone who doesn't buy a Sawstop has the right not to. Anyone who thinks less/more of a person because of the tool they own is a shortsighted idiot.

[george wilson]

I have a friend who has had several false firings. I mentioned it several weeks in another SS go round. He operates an architectural model shop.

I am not opposed to the safety feature of the SS. Anyone,no matter how experienced,or how long he has been accident free,can make a false move sooner or later. I just want the technology further developed so I can use my special blades. As it is now,I think the SS is too much trouble. I am sure it can be further developed.

Remember,I DID buy a SS for my shop at Williamsburg,so I do have experience with it.

[Dan T Jones]

I also just got a Sawstop. I like the technology and the quality of the saw (better than I am).

I DON'T LIKE THE PRICE!!!

I bought the saw with the justification of safety. On way to think of it is that you have a lifetime of the product health insurance. What is that worth?

What if you could get medical insurance for the lifetime of an auto included with the purchase price?

[Joe Jensen]

Or Z) I bought a Sawstop because I want one. Anyone who doesn't buy a Sawstop has the right not to. Anyone who thinks less/more of a person because of the tool they own is a shortsighted idiot.

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