Newbie Seeking Panto Advice

[Mike Lempert]

Hello. From the searches I ran it appears that you folks have experience with the older technology that I am seeking. I have virtually no experience with engraving, so I could use some advice on equipment for what I'm looking to do.

I wish to do guilloche using diamond drag (I think). I need to replicate the look of some work done in the 50s and 60s. I don't want to improve on it, just make it look as close to original as possible. I suspect this work was done on a straight line engine. The people who did the work weren't very accurate in my opinion, but that may have been a result of time constraints. And before you go there, no, I can't afford a straight line engine.

I'm a crafter of replica steering wheels for classic cars. My core competence is the woodworking, but I do want to start engraving. Here is some of the work that was done on the steering wheel spokes:
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/engraved That's probably enough to get the idea of where I'm heading.

I have been considering a Taylor Hobson 2-dimensional pantograph. It will also permit rotary engraving of letters. I would want to use a diamond drag bit (hoping it will fit). However, I don't want to spring for $1k or so without knowing how well it will meet my primary need. There is also a Preis unit for much less, but it is not motorized and much smaller. I don't want overkill, but also don't want to fall short.

Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.

Mike L.

[Conrad Fiore]

Well Mike, the first consideration is how are you going to produce the tracing templates? Remember that a panto graph will only equal or reduce the image you are tracing. At a 1:1 reduction, it is very difficult to trace and the flaws in the template will at the very least show up in the engraving. You would probably want to stay at a minimum of 2:1 reduction, which would mean that your template would have to be twice as large as the finished engraving. You would want to look sor a machine that has the "reach" to engrave the entire length of the engraved lines so as not to have to move the part midstream and have to try and line up where you left off.
I would stay away from the Preis, they have long since gone out of business. A company still around that makes excellent pantographs is Gorton Machine. Parts and accessories are available and you can probably pick up one used for much less than 1k. I recently found a used machine for a local industrial supplier that had a customer in need of one. I tuned it up for them and it was as good as the day it was manufactured 50 years ago.

[Mark Winlund]

Hi... yes, this was most certainly done with a diamond drag engraver. You would probably want to find one of the larger flat engraving machines, such as a New Hermes IRXK with a one to one arm. These are well built (it is hard to say that about recent New Hermes equipment!) and will do the job for you. I have seen them go on ebay for around $500.

The next step up would be a Gorton or Deckel engraving machine. The prices on these machines is wildly variable, depending on whether someone is looking for one. They have been almost entirely replaced by CNC machines, notably vertical machining centers and CNC routers.

A good source of information about various models of Gorton engravers can be found here.

http://gorton-machine.org:8080/machines/index.html#engravers_pantographs

Some on Deckel here.

http://www.e-engraving.com/machines/deckel/



My guess is that these designs were done with a purpose-built machine that engraved all of the lines at once, with the wavy lines done with an oscillating mechanism, most likely gear driven.

Mark

[Mike Null]

Even if you had the pattern I doubt that a machine such as New Hermes would be able to make a mark that deep unless that aluminum is very soft.

I would agree that an industrial machine is necessary and at least 90 degree diamond cutters would be necessary.

[Mike Lempert]

Thanks, guys, for the comments. I'm not at all concerned with the copy patterns at this point. I would draw them up, have programmed, and have someone make someone make plastic or aluminum copy at three or four times size.

I'll pass on the Preis. Thanks for that advice. I was concerned with the size of the bed and whether or not it was robust enough. So it sounds more like a Gorton or Deckel - or the machine I've been considering; a Taylor Hobson K. Do you not have an opinion of the Taylor Hobson? It has a 50-1 reduction, 110 power, and will also do rotary work.

The scribes may not be as deep as they might appear in close-up photos. The spokes them selves - or, the engraved length - is only about five inches max length. The engraving appears very fine. Will the spring loaded inserts be able to apply the needed pressure for diamond drag (90 degree) ? I'm thinking the spring approach will be necessary as some of the original spokes aren't any longer perfectly flat.

Mike L.

[Mike Null]

The cutter suppliers will give you advice about what you need. It may be that a standard 120 degree diamond will do the job. Bruce Diamond and Antares are two that come to mind.

[Brian Robison]

My thinking may be way off here but I'd want a computer driven engraver that I could also use to reproduce the spokes or build a fixture to hold the spokes in. I know it would cost more but Cunningham's aren't cheap either!
Are you need the Collier Museum by any chance?

[Mike Lempert]

Thanks again, guys. I really appreciate any advice or food for thought.

I haven't scoured the market, but from what I've seen I won't be able to afford a computer driven model. Aren't we talking several thousand $? WHile Cunninghams, Ferraris, Maserati, Lancias, etc. aren't cheap, sometimes their owners are :-) Also, you may be surprised to learn that I have no current demand. In fact, most of what I've done already has come from my own sense of what people will respond to. Once I introduce it, I expect a good response. I would like to have the flexibility that I think is offered by the Taylor Hobson. I can then offer inscriptions, which I think would go over well when orders are intended as gifts. I'm not the first to think of that as this picture proves:
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/image/112000521

I guess I tend to think in old technology terms. The panto appeals to me, the programming does not. Personally, I'd rather be able to do it by hand, but am smart enough to realize it isn't economically feasible. My great grandfather was a famous engraver; can it be in the blood? Nah, didn't think so.

Mike L.

[Dave Johnson29]

I'm not the first to think of that as this picture proves:
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/image/112000521


Mike,

That looks like the engraving I learned to do while an apprentice Toolmaker. Small hand-made specially shaped chisels and a 4-oz hammer. I'd be a bit nervous on a Porsche steering wheel though. :)

I sent you an email regarding this subject.

[Mike Lempert]

Dave: I responded earlier to the email address supplied with your message. Let me know if you do not receive it.

[Mike Lempert]

Wow, some cheap ones here:
http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/search_results.aspx?k=1&searchKeyword=pantograph&searchCategory=&sortExpression=&sortASC=&pageSize=&searchMethod=keyword

[Mike Lempert]

Oops, whole link didn't appear. Go to site and search for pantograph.

[David Lavaneri]

The scribes may not be as deep as they might appear in close-up photos. The spokes them selves - or, the engraved length - is only about five inches max length. The engraving appears very fine. Will the spring loaded inserts be able to apply the needed pressure for diamond drag (90 degree) ? I'm thinking the spring approach will be necessary as some of the original spokes aren't any longer perfectly flat.


Mike,

From the description of your parts and the size of the engravable area, you could get by with an old New Hermes "Trophy" model pantograph. As the model name implies, you should be able to find one in one of your local trophy stores. Some may be in use, while others will be collecting dust.

I have some computerized equipment, but still use a pantograph fairly regularly.

The spring-loaded diamond (spindle) doesn't exert pressure on its own. You supply the pressure. It takes a while to develop a touch to deliver equal pressure across the length of your design, but it's a short learning curve. Your substrate doesn't need to be perfectly flat. The diamond will ride very easily over changes in elevation.

A 90 degree diamond will probably be too steep a grind, which may kick up a burr in soft aluminum. A standard 120 degree diamond will give a smooth impression and you can get a fairly deep line by applying more pressure, by hand and by engraving in multiple passes, although there will be a limit to how deep you can go.. Certainly as deep as in the photos you've shown.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Null]

Mike Lempert

I have known David for quite some time and he is my guru on pantographs and machine engraving.

I'd follow his advice.

[David Lavaneri]

I can then offer inscriptions, which I think would go over well when orders are intended as gifts. I'm not the first to think of that as this picture proves:
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/image/112000521


Mike,

The inscription on the Porsche spoke was hand engraved, as in sketched out, then, under magnification and with hand-held gravers, carved into the metal.

Hand engraving actually removes metal, whereas, diamond drag pantograph engraving "plows" through the metal. That doesn't mean you won't be able to personalize the spokes, but getting the shallow, diamond drag image to hold a color-fill will be a "challenge".

Having only worked with a Gorton to rotary engrave molds for rubber inspection stamps, I can't speak to how well they perform as a diamond drag machine. Somehow, I don't think you'd be able to "feel" the engraving as much as you would with a New Hermes pantograph.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

[QUOTE=David Lavaneri;1123766]Mike,

The inscription on the Porsche spoke was hand engraved...
Hand engraving actually removes metal, whereas, diamond drag pantograph engraving "plows" through the metal. ...but getting the shallow, diamond drag image to hold a color-fill will be a "challenge".

Letter engraving is a secondary concern, and rotary engraving of letters is perfectly fine. Were you also saying the spoke guilloche was hand carved? I can get better detailed images if needed.

Wow well would rotary ingraving match the spoke work? The whole diamond drag thing is my own assessment of what I think I'm seeing. I imagined it having been done on a straight line engine turning machine, which I definitely can't afford.

Through one of my searches I came up with what looks like dirt cheap pantographs for sale here: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/ enter the word pantograph in the search field. Any thoughts on these machines? I need single phase.

Regards,
Mike L.

[Mark Winlund]

Mike,


Having only worked with a Gorton to rotary engrave molds for rubber inspection stamps, I can't speak to how well they perform as a diamond drag machine. Somehow, I don't think you'd be able to "feel" the engraving as much as you would with a New Hermes pantograph.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

You are right about that. Lots of weight and inertia on the bigger pantographs. The P2-3 I have was designed to produce molds in steel for injection molding machines. If you are careful, you can engrave number stamps with it.

Mark

[David Lavaneri]

Were you also saying the spoke guilloche was hand carved? I can get better detailed images if needed.

Wow well would rotary ingraving match the spoke work? The whole diamond drag thing is my own assessment of what I think I'm seeing. I imagined it having been done on a straight line engine turning machine, which I definitely can't afford.

Mike,

The spoke work definitely looks to be diamond drag work. Given the vintage of the steering wheels, I suspect the original templates were hand engraved into acetate (similar to flexible sheet stock for name badges etc.) to produce the patterns, (and for longer runs, brass) then used on a pantograph to do the actual engraving.

You can rotary engrave the same designs, but you won't get the "glisten" that a diamond graver would provide. You would, however, get enough to depth to color-fill if desired.

The need for a Gorton or other "industrial strength" machine would really depend on what you have a view to doing in the future. If you plan to do a lot of milling, it's a good way to go. For decorative work, as you've shown, I'd call it a bit of overkill.

I'm not familiar with the terminology. What's a "straight line" engine machine?

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

"I'm not familiar with the terminology. What's a "straight line" engine machine?"

David: The straight line engine was essentially the same type technology as rose engine turning except that it didn't rotate, as implied by its name. The rose engine was used (and still is to a degree) for decorating fine watches and jewelry. It creates very intricate cut patterns. The straight line engine just moved up, down, and sideways, but also used pattern bars to create the designs. What was different from most other forms of engraving was that the bit stayed fixed and the item being engraved moved against it. Here is a video of a brocading machine, which is basically the same concept as rose turning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Szbq6GevZkE

The straight line machine was typically manually driven by turning a wheel to move the plate against the cutter. The pattern bars caused the mechanism to zig or zag as it traveled. This type of fine, ornamental cut work was called guilloche.

Here are a couple of pictures of a straight line engine. The vertical plate is where the target piece would get mounted. This is what I'm thinking was used for the guilloche on the steering wheel spokes.
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/image/112108933

Mike L.

[David Lavaneri]

The straight line machine was typically manually driven by turning a wheel to move the plate against the cutter. The pattern bars caused the mechanism to zig or zag as it traveled. This type of fine, ornamental cut work was called guilloche.

Mike,

Thanks for the explanation and the link to the video. That was all news to me!
Fascinating contraption. Which I'm sure is what some people would have to say about pantographs.:)

Having seen the demo, I think you could produce the steering wheel spoke designs, much more quickly on a pantograph.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[David Lavaneri]

Lots of weight and inertia on the bigger pantographs.

Mark,

One aspect of the Gorton machines that I didn't like, is the fact that engraving is counterintuitive, meaning, if you trace a circle template clockwise, the machine engraves the item in a counter-clockwise direction.

Compared to the New Hermes same-direction engraving, the Gorton took some getting used to. Can't say I ever did.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mark Winlund]

Mark,

One aspect of the Gorton machines that I didn't like, is the fact that engraving is counterintuitive, meaning, if you trace a circle template clockwise, the machine engraves the item in a counter-clockwise direction.

Compared to the New Hermes same-direction engraving, the Gorton took some getting used to. Can't say I ever did.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri


Hi David... I only have experience with the large P2-3. It does not engrave in reverse.... the cutter follows the movement of the stylus, but at a reduced ratio of 2 to 1 up to 8 to 1. Perhaps some of the smaller machines worked as you described.

In the 70's, I used a New Hermes IRX-K to engrave in reverse by mounting the copy board up side down and reversing the stylus in it's holder. I used the method to do my first sub surface reverse engraving on acrylic for elevator control panels. The panels were longer lasting because of the sub surface engraving.

Mark

[Mike Lempert]

David: Yes, I agree, and good thing too as I can't come close to affording one of those old straight line machines. I see prices around $20k for the better machines. It seems most were made prior to, or around the time of the 1900 mark. I think the machines themselves are pieces of art.

I'd like to share some of my great grandfather's work, which I think you might find interesting. He did some of the engraving for our country's first paper currency around the time of the civil war. I have several plates that he engraved and have photographed them. Of course all work was done by hand back then. All the plates are covered with a coat of wax, but the work can still be seen, although maybe not as crisply.
http://www.pbase.com/mdlempert/archibald

[David Lavaneri]

Hi David... I only have experience with the large P2-3. It does not engrave in reverse.... the cutter follows the movement of the stylus, but at a reduced ratio of 2 to 1 up to 8 to 1. Perhaps some of the smaller machines worked as you described.

In the 70's, I used a New Hermes IRX-K to engrave in reverse by mounting the copy board up side down and reversing the stylus in it's holder. I used the method to do my first sub surface reverse engraving on acrylic for elevator control panels. The panels were longer lasting because of the sub surface engraving.

Mark

Mark,

Could have been that I was using a small Gorton, but small still meant it would take 4 men and a boy to move it.:eek:

Very creative, out of the box idea for the reverse-engraving! I never claimed to be the only "Stunt Engraver".:)

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[David Lavaneri]

Mike,

Sometimes, when asked what I do for a living and people find out I'm an engraver, a common response is, "So, you can engrave plates that are used to print money?"

I laugh and say, "No. I admire the skill it takes to engrave that type of work, but I'm nowhere near that caliber and do a completely different type of engraving."

Your grandfather did extremely impressive work. Extremely!

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

Thank you, David. I'm proud of that heritage. I often think that my attention to detail and interest in such precision type work is something I've inherited. I'm a woodworker, but keep getting drawn to engraving.

Great grandad's children were the last to do the work as a career. There were three boys that worked in the field. I suspect they saw the technology changing to the point where they were becoming obsolete. They moved into cerotypes at some point.

Once I was viewing old pictures on a website and came across one of the Wall Street area of NYC back around 1909. There was a building in the distance where one of the floors had a sign "Frank McLees and Bros.", which was the sons' business. It was fun to see it there.

There was some incredible talent back when g'grandad was doing his work. He was very close to the Spencer family, a famous name of the time for writing style. Spencerian Script was very popular and penmenship was another art and career for many people. I have a large charcoal portrait of g'grandad which was done by Lyman P. Spencer; it is unbelieveably good. Virtually no one that has seen it has ever detected that it is a charcoal; they always think it's a photograph.

Well, I'm still struggling with my decision to go panto or not. I'm drawn to the larger machine that will allow me to grow into more.

Regards,
Mike L.

[David Lavaneri]

Well, I'm still struggling with my decision to go panto or not. I'm drawn to the larger machine that will allow me to grow into more.

Mike,

I'm still wondering what you plan to "grow into". A New Hermes pantograph will give you much more "direct contact" and "feeling of control" with your work.
It's hard to explain, unless you've sat down and tried both pieces of equipment.

David "The Stunt Engraver" Lavaneri

[Mike Lempert]

Can anyone comment on this machine? On Ebay 120413576306
I know it won't stay at that price, and shipping alone is over $600 Good grief!!!

Mike L.

[Mark Winlund]

Rent yourself a U-haul and go get it. It's not that heavy. It looks like the ratios are 1:1 to 6:1 from the description.

Mark

[Mike Lempert]

Rent yourself a U-haul and go get it. It's not that heavy. It looks like the ratios are 1:1 to 6:1 from the description.

Mark

Arghhhh. Texas. Actually, after fuel costs, U-Haul rental, hotel, and lost time, I doubt there's much to gain. I guess that's why they charge what they do for shipping. Mark- what do you think of the machine? The Taylor Hobson I was looking at could be had for $1250, delivered. Sure wish I could find one here in SC.

[Mark Winlund]

Arghhhh. Texas. Actually, after fuel costs, U-Haul rental, hotel, and lost time, I doubt there's much to gain. I guess that's why they charge what they do for shipping. Mark- what do you think of the machine? The Taylor Hobson I was looking at could be had for $1250, delivered. Sure wish I could find one here in SC.

Well it's not one of the big names (Gorton, Deckel, etc) but it looks like it is well made, If it will really go down to 1:1 and still cover the copy table, then that is a decided advantage. Another question would be "is it continuously variable from 1:1 to 6:1, or is the 1:1 a separate arm attachment, like the New Hermes pantograph.

Also remember that the more the machine and arms weigh, the slower you have to go just due to sheer momentum. (Another advantage of the New Hermes IRX-K model.) If you are doing milling with the spindle, then you need the weight and rigidity. Diamond drag is much more forgiving.

As far as finding one, they show up regularly. They are such beautiful, intricate machines that most owners dont want to get rid of them... but in today's world, they are not very productive. So, they wind up in a corner covered by a tarp. I am only the third owner of mine. It was made in 1957. For those that are interested, here is a photo. :D

Mark

[Mike Lempert]

Wow, great machine. I like your wall too.