dovetailed jaws or non-dovetailed jaws? That is the question....

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Whether tis nobler in the spirit.... Ooops. Sorry. I got carried away. :p

So I am faced with a bit of an uncertainty. It sort of fits in the "which chuck do I get now?" vein but really only sort of... Most of the question is about the jaws on the chuck.

The situation I am faced with is that both my new Jet 1640 EVS and my Mustard Monster have 1 1/4" x 8 tpi spindles. My chucks were purchased about 2 years ago for my HF 34706 lathe which is a 1x8tpi spindle. I have 2 chucks at present. The PSI Barracuda2 and the CraftSupplies Apprentice chuck. They are extremely similar. I use the Apprentice the most just because the other one has a set of 10" cole jaws rather permanently mounted on it.

The biggest issue right now is that having just bought a Mustard lathe last summer and a Jet EVS lathe my toy money is pretty much shot. According to my wife for the rest of my life. But we will see how that goes... :o

So I bought the PSI spindle adapter to use my old chucks on the Jet/mustard. My goodness!!! To say that I have run out now is a massive understatement. With my standard #2-jaws chuck I didn't really see it at first. I just noticed that when turning 2 recent bowls I was faced with a constant chattering sound that was new. Since it was a twice turned bowl out of a wood I hadn't worked with before I had attributed it to that. Then I mounted up the Cole-Jaws chuck and my goodness! With that bigger flare on the jaws it is visibly wobbling. I swear it is swinging by at least a 1/16th of a inch. I would guess closer to an 1/8th. What a joke. No wonder things seemed off.

The waters muddy:
So I started looking around for new solutions. Basically that seems to be a new chuck. I talked with Bob Hamilton in a different thread about his Oneway tommy bar chuck. He really seems to like that style and design. So I did some checking here in a great many threads and the camps seem to be split right down the middle on that question. Tommy Bar vs. Scroll designs. People seem to love one or other for the most part. Both of my current chucks are of the Scroll variety. And I like them and would keep using them baring this run-out issue.

So I looked at the cheap 4-jaw Tommy Bar chuck Woodcraft has on sale right now. I liked the idea of the simple short insert that would get it onto the lathe without this run-out issue. The question in choosing it is the tommy bars and the potentially unknown quality of it. For $77 right now it seems like it could be a good short term choice.

Bernie mentioned in a post the similar cheap chuck from Grizzly. Their tommy bar version doesn't have the 1 1/4" x 8tpi version. So it is useless for me. Darn it. At that price it would have been perfect.

Then I looked at the Nova Precision Midi chuck. It has the tommy bars but to me that is the smaller concern with it. The quality is known and it should be a great quality chuck. The biggest problem with it is that it the ones I can find at WoodCraft and Craft Supplies and most of the online places are the 1x8tpi direct thread versions. The boxes/internet talk about there being an insert version but no one seems to have one. (Anyone know where I can get one?!!?) The direct threaded version leaves me with exactly the same problem.

Which leads to the Oneway version. It is expensive. Starts at about $210 and goes up from there from my web searches. The Talon is only a touch more at about $240 and for the difference I think it would be the way to go if I could afford it.

So I went back to Grizzly for the chucks the Bernie recommends. Their version of the Vicmarc VM100. For $100 with the insert and the basic chuck jaws it seems like a good call. The internal smaller insert to get to the right spindle thread etc... Just seems like a good deal all around.


However, and I suppose that was a long long lead-in but some should one have any comments then feel free to chime in on any of the above, they have dovetail jaws on them. For that matter it turns out so do the Nova Chucks and from what I can see the Vicmarc jaws are too. The Oneway standard jaws appear to be stright up and down with serrations on them.

The chucks I am used to have straight walled jaws with light serrations on them. You can look at the attached pics for a shot of them from PSI. (Sorry not sure if just an image link is allowed.)

Having never used dovetailed jaws I wonder about them. Being good enough to cut them properly and get a good grip. Will a smooth-sided dovetail hold well enough or are the serrated edges better? Are they worse? Just because I have gotten used to them doesn't mean that what I have used in the past is really better. Either for chuck types or for jaws.

So I just wanted to ask the creekers at large what they liked both about their chucks and about the type of jaws they use. And I suppose are there better adapters than others or will they all be bad in the same general way?

I just know that I have to do something I am pretty bummed about this little snafu. *sigh*

Thanks,
Joshua

P.s. I decided to just add the photos. If that isn't OK a mod can remove them or let me know and I will edit the post to remove the pics. But they are left to right the dovetailed jaws on the Vicmarc, the "straight" serrated jaws on the oneway and then the very straight jaws I am used to using from the PSI chucks. Just so people can see what I am talking about.

[Richard Madison]

Joshua,
I have two of the $99 Griz chucks w/ dovetail jaws and they seem to work well. I just eyeball the angle when turning the tenon. Does not seem to matter much, as the jaws make indentions in the tenon, creating a secure mechanical grip. Always mark the #1 jaw position on the tenon if the piece is to be removed and rechucked later. It will re-center surprisingly well. Not sure if the Griz chucks center as well as the $200 types, but once the tenon is slightly indented I don't see how that matters. IMHO dovetail jaws grip the wood well and cause it to rotate when the lathe is turned on. That's about all I need them to do. Also like the hex key. Leaves one hand free to hold the work or whatever. Yammer, yammer, etc. Other opinions may vary.

[Gordon Seto]

The Nova Midi Precision is designed for smaller turnings. It is never intended to be used for the Mustard size lathes; therefore you won't find 1-1/4" spindle thread size. So is Barracuda 2.
Dovetail jaws is never a problem. Oneway chucks also has dovetail jaws as optional accessories (they call smooth jaws).

[Bob Haverstock]

Joshua,

I had bought the least expensive Grizzly. Then I bought a new Nova Midi chuck. You are lucky that the Black Grizzly doesn't come with 1 1/4 threads. I loaned my Black Chuck out. If it doesn't ever come home, that is OK.

I think that every chuck that you have mentioned is a scroll chuck. Some are adjusted with tommy bars and the others use a wrench and pinoin gear. The pinion gear is an added expence.

I like clean dovetailed jaws. I hane never used a serrated jaw set on a wood lathe, but, then I've only been to one county fair.

Make sure that the adapters are very very clean with not visable burrs. try them one more time. If you have no success adapting the small chucks, sell them to fellow creekers. I'd be interested in the Nova.

Bob

Quote
Bernie mentioned in a post the similar cheap chuck from Grizzly. Their tommy bar version doesn't have the 1 1/4" x 8tpi version. So it is useless for me. Darn it. At that price it would have been perfect.

internal smaller insert to get to the right spindle thread etc... Just seems like a good deal all around.




Thanks,
Joshua

P.s. I decided to just add the photos. If that isn't OK a mod can remove to using from the PSI chucks. Just so people can see what I am talking about.[/QUOTE]

[Thom Sturgill]

Joshua,

I have two of the PSI chucks and bought extra jaws for the first and then just a body for the second. One of the jaw sets I bought is their new dovetail jaws and that is the set I use the most! It seems to grip much better than the serrated jaws. That said, the OneWay jaws also hold well, but notice that they are not circular but rather have a wave pattern, and the serrations are deeper than the PSI. They grip well in eight spots.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

The Nova Midi Precision is designed for smaller turnings. It is never intended to be used for the Mustard size lathes; therefore you won't find 1-1/4" spindle thread size. So is Barracuda 2.
Dovetail jaws is never a problem. Oneway chucks also has dovetail jaws as optional accessories (they call smooth jaws).
Gordon,

I might have a Mustard lathe but I have yet to turn anything over 12 inches. Wood like that is expensive and heavy and ... Most of what I turn is smaller bowls and lidded boxes. I have made 2 whole pens to date.

I just wanted to be clear that I wasn't trying to swing a 20" bowl with the Nova Midi chuck. I was just looking to be able to continue turning. The smoothness and lack of vibration in a bigger lathe is amazing. I would never go back to my little HF and so far I have only used the Jet.

But the adapter I have won't work even for these smaller bowls I have been turning. It introduces too much into the mix.

Joshua

[Don Eddard]

I have both serrated straight jaws and dovetail jaws. I prefer (and trust) the dovetail jaws the most.

Joshua, I see you are trying to bargain-shop your way out of a problem. Inevitably, you'll spend more money in the long run gearing up your shop that way. DAMHIKT. ;) I'd suggest saving up your lunch/beer/poker money and just getting either a Supernova 2, Talon, or something else in that class. It doesn't make sense to spend thousands on dollars on good lathes only to use a Wal*Mart approach to mounting the wood on your lathe. Especially when you'll most likely replace it with a higher-quality chuck.

As an aside, you mentioned that big wood can be expensive, but you might be surprised how much free suburban timber you can get by talking to arborists and landscaping companies.

[Dick Sowa]

In the big scheme of things, it probably won't matter a great deal...you will get used to whatever configuration you have, and learn to size and cut your tenons accordingly.

I happen to like the Talon design, but it's the only chuck I own. Part of the reason has to do with the way it grips. The curved inside faces of the jaws will grip the tenon in two places for each jaw, regardless of the size of the tenon...and close to equa-distant apart. A chuck using smooth/dovetail jaws will need to have the tenon sized exactly to match the curve of the jaws, otherwise the jaws will only grip the tenon in two places...at the edges of the jaw. My way of thinking is that if that's the way most tenons will be gripped, then I should go with serrated jaws to make the grip that much stronger.

The run out issue is a surprise...since I had been thinking of getting a spindle adapter too. But now maybe that isn't such a good idea.

[Ken Glass]

Joshua,
I have the a Mustard and I use both the Super Nova 2 and a couple Grizzly Chucks Model H6267 at 1-1/4x8 tpi. ( Recommended by Bernie) The grizzly chucks work really well and they will also accommodate the Vicmark jaws and the Nova jaws. You should use at least the Grizzly chuck at 3-3/4" on your lathe though for safety sake. I am a big fan of the Super Nova 2 because it is smoother than the Grizzly, but you could start there and save up for a SN2 very quickly. I see the SN2 on sale all the time for under $150. As far as the serrated jaws, they have their place, but I rarely put them on a chuck anymore. Both the mentioned chucks will hold your turning pretty well.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Joshua I have 3 of the Grizzly chucks and a Vicmarc. I hate changing jaws. Had I known at the time that the Vic jaws would work on the Grizz that would be all I would have. Right now most of my turnings are with the 1 1/4 X 8 Griz chuck with the Vic shark jaws or the big jaws that will hold a 4" tenon. I have never lost a piece with the Griz chucks.

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Joshua I have 3 of the Grizzly chucks and a Vicmarc. I hate changing jaws. Had I known at the time that the Vic jaws would work on the Grizz that would be all I would have. Right now most of my turnings are with the 1 1/4 X 8 Griz chuck with the Vic shark jaws or the big jaws that will hold a 4" tenon. I have never lost a piece with the Griz chucks.
Bernie,

Where do you buy your Vic jaws at? CraftSupplies?

Joshua

[Reed Gray]

If you are used to the scroll chucks, you will not get along with the tommy bar chucks. I have the Vicmark chucks and they come with dove tailed jaws. There is a slight mechanical advantage with the dove tail as compared to the straight jaws. When using a recess or tenon, it is important to have the size and angles match closely to get the best grip. A tenon slightly oversized, and a recess slightly oversized. when you get jaws that are gripping a tenon that is 4 inched in diameter, and the jaws closed are 2 inches, you loose a lot of gripping power, and the same with a recess. If you are turning larger bowls, you will need a larger chuck and jaws.

As far as the run out goes, a spindle adapter adds to the problem because it makes a longer lever. You want thread adapters in your chucks, not on the headstock spindle. If you can't change the threads, and don't have another lathe to put them on, sell them, and there is some money for a new chuck. Also, with the PM, you should make some things to sell so you can 'support' your habit.

robo hippy

[Leo Van Der Loo]

Josh I have 3 Talon chucks and all the different top jaws for it, I also have a Stronghold with all the jaws, My choice to go with the Oneway chucks is that they do have a number of advantages over the other chucks, they won't rust, they have the jaws open farther than the other chucks, they use hardened toolsteel for the chuck.
All chucks but the tommy bar ones do have the pinions to turn the scroll, either build into the chuck or like the Oneway on the chuck key, I prefer the one on the key, it will not trap dirt and makes for less weight spinning around.
The profiled jaws will hold the wood over all the dimensions that the chuck is able to open up to, instead of being forced to always make your tenon/recess to a certain exact size in order to hold well.
I have a large lathe that I use for my big size bowls, it has no tailstock on the outboard side, so I am always depending on my chuck to hold these big pieces all by itself, and the profiled jaws have done this time and again, something my dovetail jaws are unable to do.
My well meant recommendation is go for the profiled jaws, and a Oneway chuck, either the standard tommy bar chuck or the Talon, they will last a lifetime and you won't need to upgrade later, have fun and take care

[Toney Robertson]

As far as the run out goes, a spindle adapter adds to the problem because it makes a longer lever. You want thread adapters in your chucks, not on the headstock spindle.
robo hippy


Reed,

Why would it make any difference if the thread adapters are in your chucks or on the headstock spindle? This does not make sense to me.

If you would clear this up I would appreciate it.

Toney

[Roger Wilson]

I've got a Nova Midi chuck and use it on a Delta midi. It is fine. The requirement for dovetail tenons is an extra requirement but not much of one. If you are looking for a Nova chuck on a larger lathe I'd look at the Nova G3 as a step up.

[Tony Kahn]

Save your money (for a while) and spend it wisely. I have 2 talons, 1 strong hold and a nova G3 i like them all. The G3 actually isnt, too bad price wise and has a variety of jaws available. i think it comes with #2 dovetail. I ussually keep a set of their bowl jaws on it which is kind of a hybrid it seems, it is dovetail on outside and inside is dovetail shape with serrations.Woodcraft has them for 144.99 with insert. and to make your dovetails more precise you can get the dovetail chisel. My next best suggestion would be the talon, I have #1, #2, #3 and step jaws for my 2 talons, and have turned pieces that my Jet 1642 could just handle.

[Dave Halter]

I have a Talon and a Stronghold and like them both. Hartville tool has a sale on them until the end of April.

Dave

[Richard Madison]

This is as bad as a "chainsaw" thread. Maybe worse.

[Bernie Weishapl]

Bernie,

Where do you buy your Vic jaws at? CraftSupplies?

Joshua

Yes I bought them there Joshua. One Vic with 3 sets of jaws would be around $402 and I bought 3 Griz's with 3 different Vic jaws for $472.

[Gordon Seto]

Reed,

Why would it make any difference if the thread adapters are in your chucks or on the headstock spindle? This does not make sense to me.

If you would clear this up I would appreciate it.

Toney
Toney,

This is not Reed. I hope I can help.
Converting a larger spindle to a smaller thread spindle size has to be longer than a smaller spindle size to a larger thread size.
In the picture converting a Mustard 1-1/4" x 8 to a 1" X 8 spindle is 5/8" longer. That is a lot longer than a chuck insert (thread adapter in chuck). A chuck insert is normally 3/8 to 1/2" protruding, which is far less leverage than the 2"+ spindle adapter.
http://www.teknatool.com/images/insert_small.jpg

http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o83/gbseto/ad7753a5.jpg
Both adpaters are from the same manufacturer. Because my 1-1/4" lathe has reversing, therefore it has grub screws for locking on the spindle.
The spindle adapter is something I would avoid if I can.

[Toney Robertson]

Thanks Gordon.

Toney

[William Payer]

Joshua,
I have two Talons and one Supernova 2 (recent purchase). The Talons are capable of holding very tightly on to a tenon, but I find that when using short tenons, they too often tear out from the grip of the serrated jaws if you get a good catch. This probably is more a problem of my getting a little too aggressive in taking big cuts. IF you take small cuts, or go with a longer tenon, the Talon holds very well.
I bought a Supernova 2 recently since Craft Supplies was running a sale with 4 sets of jaws. It also gave me a chance to get some smooth dovetail jaws for situations where I do not want marks on the tenon and want to incorporate the tenon into the foot of the piece. (The supernova jaws also fit on the Talon).
Since your budget is an issue right now, you might want to consider the Grizzly clone of the Vicmarc for $99 ( and $20 for extra jaw sets) Bernie W has these and speaks favorably of them. Later when you have more cash for additional chucks you can make other purchases.
As to tommy bar vs keyed scroll chucks, I see keyed chucks having one large advantage. tommy bar chucks require both hands to operate hte two tommy bars leaving the need for a third had to hold the piece while chucking! It seems to me that keyed chucks are therefore more "user friendly". I find the need to hold and position the piece when chucking, and the one handed tightening of the chuck works very well.
Enjoy the Mustard!

[Burt Alcantara]

As I am an inexperienced turner I've run into problems rechucking with my profiled Talons jaws. Note that this is my problem, not the chuck/jaws.

Often, I will do something that causes me to rechuck a piece already on the lathe. Either a catch, wood compression, or act of God. In these cases, getting the chuck back dead center is virtually impossible for me. I know there are some of you out there that can do this eyes closed, but not me (yes, I mark the jaw position).

After reading numerous threads about pros and cons of dovetails vs serrated, I decided to try the dovetail. I bought a Vicmarc 120. Still haven't used it as I got caught up with making blanks along with a massive HDL (honey-do-list).

Joshua, perhaps, as a novice turner you should try both methods to see which works best for you. If you go that route, get a chuck that will offer jaws with these features. I dont have this option with my Talons and Stronghold because I bought the profiled jaws at that time. Note that while OneWay offers dovetailed jaws, they strongly recommends profiled jaws.

Burt

[Joshua Dinerstein]

Do the Grizzly inserted have the grub screw for reversing the direction of the lathe for sanding etc? Also since this was the reason I asked in the first place. What jaws have you chosen to use with your chucks?

Ken mentioned in an earlier post in this thread the the Grizzly body will also support Nova jaws. Have you ever tried any of those on yours? I have read more often than not that each manufacturer does it there own way and all are different. But then the apprentice and the PSI chucks share the exact same format. So I was wondering. After all it opens up a great many... possibilities. :D

Thanks,
Joshua

[Tim Cleveland]

As to tommy bar vs keyed scroll chucks, I see keyed chucks having one large advantage. tommy bar chucks require both hands to operate hte two tommy bars leaving the need for a third had to hold the piece while chucking! It seems to me that keyed chucks are therefore more "user friendly". I find the need to hold and position the piece when chucking, and the one handed tightening of the chuck works very well.
Enjoy the Mustard![/QUOTE]

If you lock the spindle, you only need one hand to tighten the chuck. I know some full time turners (Mike Mahoney among them) that only use tommy bar chucks and actually say that they are faster to use.

The problem with serrated jaws (especially OW's) is that even though they provide an incredible grip, they can crush the tenon so much that it can be very difficult to remount your work accurately, even if you do mark the placement of the jaws. Dovetail jaws grip very well and don't have this problem.

You said that you got the PSI spindle adapter, they are alot more expensive (around $60-$70) but you might have more succes with the spindle adaptors that Craft Supplies carries (I think they are made by Vicmarc).

Tim

[Nathan Hawkes]

Reed,

Why would it make any difference if the thread adapters are in your chucks or on the headstock spindle? This does not make sense to me.

If you would clear this up I would appreciate it.

Toney


Because if the adapter is from a small to larger thread--i.e. from 1" to 1.25", the adapter is likely 3" long or so.If there is any teeny tiny amount of slop in the thread, at 3" from the spindle, there will be some runout, and thus not spin true.

Even with the large to small scenario, the tiny runout would be multiplied by the length.

[Steve Arnold]

I realize that this is a very old thread and that's why I'm confused by it. I was searching online for info on the new Jet 1640EVS wood lathe, and came across the the first post of this thread. The OP mentions that he has this lathe (which was just introduced in March), but his post is over 7 years old. How can that be?

[Dwight Rutherford]

I think the OP made a typo and meant to refer to the older Jet 1642.

[Thom Sturgill]

I realize that this is a very old thread and that's why I'm confused by it. I was searching online for info on the new Jet 1640EVS wood lathe, and came across the the first post of this thread. The OP mentions that he has this lathe (which was just introduced in March), but his post is over 7 years old. How can that be?


His Jet 1642 was new-to-him in 2009. Jet recently (2016) updated the machine but did not change the model name like they did with the Powermatic (A and B models) or when they replaced the 1014 with the 1015 and the 1220 with the 1221. I wish they had called it the 1642B-EVS, it would have saved a bunch of confusion. The old model was available both as EVS and manual speed change with either 1 1/2hp and 2hp motors. I own the 1642-EVS with 1 1/2hp that I bought about the same time as Joshua.

[Steve Arnold]

I think the OP made a typo and meant to refer to the older Jet 1642.

Thanks, I should have thought of that myself. :rolleyes:

[Brice Rogers]

I'm using a 1" chuck with an 1-1/4 to 1" adapter, Grizz model T10807. I think that it only costs around $8. I get a surprisingly small amount of runout from it. It is very nicely machined.

[ron david]

If everything ran true before and your new spindle runs true (have you checked it) and then adaptor causes a problem, send it back for one that does or get one somewhere else. if you want it true take your spindle and chucks into a machine shop and get them to make one for you. depending on what your old chucks are worth and what it is to by new ones. if you are not going to use both sizes as in keeping both lathes get new chucks and sell your old ones. there is always someone looking for chucks. there are also times that when you extend out that you can get bearing chatter, especially if they are running(the lathe) a single race ball bearing. you can get bearings with tighter tolerances.
My 260 general used to give me chatter on h/t vessels back in the 80s and made it better by modifying the h/stock to take double row b/bearings which helped which helped. then you want to turn bigger and it happens again so you have your own headstock built and solves the problem. 2 3/16 shaft with 1 1/2 x 8 tpi and 2 double tapered conical timken bearing that are adj. solves all problems. . I have 3 different sets of chucks and f/plates which I use and 2 lathes, the other 1 x 8 tpi.it covers a lot of thing back and forth between them.. I had 2 adaptors to go down to 1 1/4 and 1" and they were made when I had the h/stock, spindle and f/plates made up and they are right on. I had ordered at a later date 2 to go the other way from CS years ago and they are not quite as close. the threads felt a lot sloppier which could have caused that. I can see and understand the reason as for all the different applications (lathe manufactures) that they may have to fit. one has to fit all.
there is always a reason as to why something causes a problem. are you using a plastic washer in there ?
I have 8 machinist scroll chucks that I use between 3 lathes plus an old precision chuck. I also have a small machinist lathe with 1 x 8 tpi on it
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1600x1200q90/924/jjJ9tA.jpg
ron