Arm-R-Seal wipe on Low Angle view Not so good

[Steven Hans]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post about my first wood project. I built some nightstands and I am concerned with the top. The wood is maple and I followed the General Finish process of applying Seal-A-Cell (wait 24 hours) and then wipe on coats of Arm-R-Seal (satin) with a damp (damp with Arm-R-Seal) t-shirt folded. I applied very thin coats and sanded with gray synthetic steel wool lightly. For the last coat (6 total), I thinned with mineral spirits 25%. For good measure, I made a special paint booth for my wiping coats. Before I entered the booth, I spray myself with water as I am the greatest source of lint. It worked out wonderful. I did this because I don't trust myself to rub out the finish. I did not spend too much time wiping. I wipe across the grain, then look at a low angle to make sure I got the entire surface covered, then I gently wipe with the grain --done. 1 minute total. But for some reason I see some streaking only at very low angles of light looking into the sun. I have supplied some pictures. Other then this, I am very happy with my work. Am I expecting too much? Am I being too particular? Is this what is expected with wipe-on finish?
Figure 1 shows a top view with flash. Figure 4 shows my custom paint booth. I used it before for spraying water based generals with very good results. I am extremely pleased with the lack of lint and dust nibs (and bugs) with my wipe-on finish. Figure 9 shows the same table top at a low angle with no flash. Notice the streaking? It is kind of hard to capture on camera. Figure 2 shows a low angle view with the flash and you can see some of that streaking here.

[Prashun Patel]

The pix are not showing the streaks to me.

However, I ALWAYS get this problem when wiping satin finishes. Satin and semigloss finishes contain flatteners that really require constant mixing. A better man might be able to do it, but I've never been able to WIPE on a satin finish well.

You have a couple options:

1) You can use an aerosol SPRAY satin topcoat on top of yr existing finish. Use something that closely matches your existing topcoat's formulation.

2) You can try rubbing out the piece with paste wax and mineral spirit-lubed 4x0 steel wool. This will harmonize the sheen. If you don't have luck, you can remove the wax with spirits.

3) You can really mix - not shake, but stir - the finish and BRUSH on a coat. The streaks of the existing coat will disappear. This, however, will create a 'buildy' surface.

[Steven Hans]

Hi Shawn,
The streaks are very subtle but appear as slight milky wisps in the direction of the grain. I made sure to stir just before I dipped my t-shirt. I think I only needed to dip 3 times. Other then this, I am happy with the finish. I was kind of hoping for a spray look and I almost got it. I have read others mentioning that they get streak free results with the wipe-on. I would sure love to see the work at a low viewing angle to see if I am in the ball park.

[John Keeton]

Dirk, Shawn has a lot more info on finishing than do I, but I have had luck in the past with rubbing down a satin wipe on finish with brown paper. It seemed to level everything out very well.

I will say, however, that the finish you show appears to be a very good finish. I doubt you can expect a spray on look from a wipe on finish - unless you do a shellac French polish.

[Steven Hans]

I have some more pics so that you may be able to see the streaking. Image 013 is without flash and 002 is with flash. The image without flash shows the light streaking better.

[Steven Hans]

I have another panel with the same issue. I am going to spray that with my crappy $25 gun and compare with a side by side.

[John Keeton]

I do see the streaks, but they really don't look bad. Will be interesting to see the other panel.

[Steven Hans]

Hello Everyone,
My test results are in. First I should recap on what I wanted to accomplish. I enjoyed using the general finishes top coat. I am building 2 nightstands out of hard maple and maple plywood. I learned so much about wood working. The nightstand is finished in its unassembled form using blue painters tape to mask off glue areas. This worked quite well. What you see in the images are the nightstands assembled without glue --a mock up. I don't dare glue until 2 or 3 weeks so that I can let the finish dry hard. I will be clamping. While wipe on performed well, I could see some streaking when I look at the top at a 20 degree angle towards a light source. To be fair, I wanted a finish that didn't need any rubbing. However, perhaps with some rubbing the finish would be perfect? So what you see in the photos is a comparison of the tops where the lighter maple has the last coat sprayed on --I do a final wipe on the bottom round over profile around the edge. The darker top is wipe on only. When spraying, I used a cheap gun, placed the finish straight up without diluting and set the pressure of my air compresser to approximately 20psi - maybe less. Even so, you do get a cloud of finish and there is more waste than wiping. I need to get a HVLP gun.
To the figures: Figures 001 and 002 show the top view -nice satin sheen without that plastic look. Figure 003 gives you a look at the edges of the tops, which are both wipe-on. You have to really contort your body to see any flaws in the wipe-on finish on the edges. Figure 004 and 006 are shots taken at an approximate 20-30 degree angle looking towards the sunlight. The top on the left is the sprayed top and the one on the right is the wipe-on. Do you see the streaks better now. Interesting, the top on the left does diffuse the light more and it is almost as if the left is more matte-satin and the right is more satin-semi-gloss from this view. I have two more figures showing an extreme view, I will see if can post those in another reply.

So it would appear that both of these finishes need something to make them perfect. John has mentioned brown paper bag. Now would this be wrapped around a felt block and rubbed with moderate pressure along the grain? And does this do a good job of making the sheen consistant? I would prefer to be conservative with the rubbing. Also, generals website kind of recommends not to use wax as it is more maintance. However, if wax and steel wool will make the top perfect, I wouldn't rule it out.

[Steven Hans]

Figure 008 is an extreme close up of the spray finish. I am sure that you will be able to see some nibs, but look at the finish, it smooth to the touch but has interesting pattern -almost looks like texture. Mind you, I had the macro button on my camera and this is an extreme view. Figure 009 is an extreme close up of the wipe-on. It almost appears clearer from this view but you can see the streaks where the light hits.

[John Keeton]

Dirk, I think you got some drying on the sprayed finish before it hit the surface - thus the texture. Don't know if thinning a bit would help or not.

[Steven Hans]

John,
Would rubbing the finish with brown paper help? If so, should I wait a few weeks before attempting. I am not sure if I want to keep fiddling with the top too much. I would end up really messing things up.

[John Keeton]

Well, first of all, I would always recommend a test piece to see how it will react. The times I have used brown paper, I did it before the varnish fully cured. However, if you do it too soon it will make a mess of it. I have only recently worked with the General finishes, but they seem to set pretty quickly. I have some that has been applied for a week and I am going to test it tonite. I will let you know.

[John Keeton]

Dirk, I tried the brown paper on the Arm-R-Seal tonite. Didn't phase it! So, I imagine you need to get to it in a couple days to have any impact.

[Steven Hans]

Thanks John,
I did the spray finish yesterday. So I will give it a go tonight. Oh man, it isn't doing anything. I think that you should do it after 8 hours under ideal conditions. The finish is too hard. I was pressing down too and nothing!

[Corey Wilcox]

Dirk-

Given your meticulous finishing practices I would say you have nothing to fear when it comes to rubbing out either the sprayed on or wiped on finish. Rubbing it out should get rid of the "texture" and the streaking and it's honestly not that difficult if you take your time. Just don't push down hard or over-work any one particular area when you're doing it and you should get good results.

[Steven Hans]

Thanks Corey,
I also heard that if you don't want to finish the finish, to use a gel wipe-on wipe-off. I will try the gel satin by general's to see if that can even the sheen.

I did redo my kitchen table using mixol dye and shellac doing a french polish method. I wanted a satin sheen so I used gray synthetic steel wool and a piece of wood and went over the entire surface. Shellac was so nice to rub out and didn't take much effort.

[Prashun Patel]

Nice looking table. Shellac on a kitchen table, though? How's it holding up?

[Steven Hans]

It is not bad actually. Resists scratches pretty well and we use place mats now. One time though, I lit a candle and a hot amber, from a match head, landed on the table. I used a 2# cut and a small brush to build up the boo-boo. I waited three days and then used a razor with a burr (kind of like a scraper) and leveled the mark. A little alcohol and a final rub down with gray steel wool and it was done.

Changing subjects, John mentioned that perhaps I should thin out the varnish. I just got done watching a wood whisper video where he says that he doesn't like spraying polyurethane because it dries so slow. He says if he must spray, the final spray coat would be a 75% naptha to 25% poly mix. He prefers finishes that dry fast like lacquer, shellac, or water based stuff.

For the wipe on board on the right, I thought that I could use a gel topcoat. Following the instructions it says apply a liberal amount with clean rag and then wipe off evenly along the grain leaving enough for a "wet look". However, I watched a wood craft video of the product and the guy changes rags to wipe off and he uses the words buff out. I was almost treating this stuff like the wipe-on top coat. As a result I have wipe marks. I think I will do a light sand and hit it with a top coat of the Arm-R-Seal before trying this again. The nice thing about all this though is the coats are very think so I don't have to worry about having a plastic looking surface.

[Steven Hans]

I purchased the Woodwhisper mp4 on his go-to-finish. He explained how you create a proper pad by layering 2-3 sheets of t-shirt squares and then folding over in thirds. Finally you fold the whole thing over so that the edge has no creases and can distribute the force from your fingers evenly as you drag the pad. However, I had another idea! How about placing a credit card (or gift card) in the pad so that the pressure is even and maybe no streaks. So after folding in thirds, you then place the card and fold the t-shirt bundle over the card. I can't try it tonight, but tomorrow I will give it a go.

I tried the satin gel stuff and didn't really care for it. I need to spend more time to get the technique done I guess. It is suppose to be fool proof, but I am thinking that there is no fool proof finish :(.

What is funny is that I will probably end up rubbing everything out with 0000 steel wool in a couple weeks. However, if I can perfect the wipe on without rubbing that will be something nice.

[Steven Hans]

I think I understand what Shawn means when he has issues with the wipe-on Satin. I don't like the spray either. I am going to wipe that on and then wait 3 weeks and try rubbing out the finish. If all else fails --I bought SOY GEL. And, after 2nd quarter, if I have any money and the wife lets me. I will get a HVLP gun with the 3M cup system. I have a nice air compressor. I was thinking about getting the porter cable gun. The rest of the nightstand is stunning though. Nice thing about the top is that it is screwed on so I can work on that some other time, if I am not happy with it. The rest of the nightstand looks good IMHO. :(

[Steven Hans]

I had some experience in rubbing through poly into the next layer requiring a new top coat. In this case with the maple tops, using Arm-R-Seal, has anyone rubbed successfully with only steel wool only? With such thin coats, there would be a major problem trying to flatten with sand paper causing the previous finish layer to telegraph. If the top is flat enough, is it possible to only use steel wool to get a satin sheen that is pleasing to the eye? I have Jeff Jewitt's books on finishing and it seems like he uses sand paper for both rubbing thick and thin top coats before moving to the steel wool. :confused:

Another note: www.homesteadfinishing.com is coming up with account suspended. Wasn't sure if others are experiencing this.

[Tony Bilello]

Spray is almost always better than wipe on. You will just have to work on your technique. I am not familiar with Arm-A-Seal but I'm sure it's not any different than any other urethane as far as spraying goes. It appears the rough surface is partly due to it being too thick and not flowing out, just add a little thinner and it will atomize better.
I also am not familiar with your spray equipment. If you are using a conventional spray set, 20 PSI is way too low. For urethanes I use about 45 to 50 PSI.
Maybe I could talk you into lacquer sometime. It is much easier to spray than urethane and way way faster drying.

[Steven Hans]

Hi Tony,
You don't have to twist my arm too much. I am convinced that spraying is the way to go. However for the immediate future, I went ahead and smoothed the top and now both have a carefully wiped on finish. I will wait three weeks (May 24th) and then even the sheen. I went the library and got Jeff Jewitt's hand finishing book. He addresses my concerns about "flatting" a wipe on poly top where you are dealing with a thin finish layer. I honestly don't care if it is flat as long as I can trick the eye to think it is! If you look at the table from a 0 degree angle you can see imprecations. However, I really don't plan on looking at the top that closely. I have a nice little spray booth that I built but it is only for water based finishes. Therefore, when I get my HVLP gun, I will only do water based finishes. I have did a search in this forum for explosion fan and it came up with all sorts of information. Ultimately, it is good to err on the side of caution. So if you have a replacement for laquer that is water based, I am seriously going to consider it. Who knows, I may redo the tops with a spray on finish someday?

[Tony Bilello]

Spraying is relatively simple. Much easier to do than to explain. Maybe someone on here that sprays lives near you or you work with someone that sprays. Once you see it live and up close, you will know what you are looking for in the way of 'how wet'. Then its a matter of very little practice. One of the keys to successful spraying is to be relaxed. That way your body motion is smooth.
When I used to teach woodworking, woodturning , etc. I would always tell students to take a deep breath, relax and make like you have done this before. Dont try to do it, just do it.

Good luck to you in whichever way you go.

BTW, nice looking nightstands, and when you show them off, do not point to the finish and apologize. The 'uninitiated' probably wont even know that anything is not perfect.

[Steven Hans]

Well I waited 1 month after applying the urethane to glue and clamp and smooth my table top. It's nerve racking being careful not to mess up the nice finish while muscling everything together with clamps. However, the top came out nice. I purchased some micromesh sanding pads and used the 2400, 3200, and 3600 with a light hand and dry on the top. I didn't scratch the top and it feels so smooth, very pleasing. It certainly helped that I created a paint booth for the final wipe on coat to minimize lint and dust. I have some final pictures of the first nightstand. I still have to glue up the other one. Finally, I will create the drawers. The drawer front will be cherry with a satin brushed metal knob and the inside will be maple with a ply-birch bottom. I will apply shellac to the inside of the drawer and do the wipe on urethane to the cherry front. I will be sure to show those pictures too when I finish! I am excited to have almost completed my first furniture build. My wife really likes them and they are heavy! Oh yeah, I got in trouble for my name. My name is Steve not Dirk :D

[Steve Benson]

I dont know if this helps you, but i have followed David Marks in that he uses like 5-6 coats of Gloss Arm R Seal and then like 2 coats of satin or whatever you need to get the proper matte finish.

When i did our kitchen cabinets i shellac'd to seal and fill pores of walnut and then used 5 gloss coats and 2 satin coats and came out beautiful.

For David Marks see here (http://www.djmarks.com/stories/faq/What_is_the_mix_ratio_for_the_Linseed_Oil_Tung_Oil _and_Urethane_46687.asp)

When i apply the Arm R Seal i cut up a like 1ft x 1ft of new tshirt. I literally flood the surface with Arm R Seal, and let it sit for a minute or 2. The i Wipe with the grain and wring out the extra finish in a secondary container. I do this until smoothly coated. I reuse the rag and store it in that secondary container. Sometimes i dont get it dry enough and i use another piece of tshirt.

[Steven Hans]

That is an interesting method. This technique sounds similar to using a gel wipe on.

[Steven Hans]

I finished the second nightstand! Now I just need to build the drawers for both. I love it when the iridescence is highlighted from the flash of the camera.