Help this noob with outfitting his 'shop'?

[Mike Package]

Apologies in advance for the long post.

I've recently gotten the woodworking bug and ever since, I've been devouring information from forums like these. But I'd like to ask for some recommendations specific to my situation if I could...

I've budgeted $800-1000 for purchasing a new tool or tools in the next couple of weeks and I'm trying to figure out which path to follow.

Some details - I'm interested in building solid-body electric guitars, some small home furniture projects (bookshelves, etc.), some modest home improvement/repair, trim work, etc.

My shop is actually an old springhouse. Roughly 16x19. One 40" entry door with a few steps leading up to it. It has it's own sub-panel piggy-backed off the house panel. No 220, but 6 or 8 individual 120 circuits, some 15A and some 20A.

My tool arsenal so far consists of....

10" Delta power miter saw (not great, but decent)
PC 690 Router in a Bosch router table with a small assortment of decent bits.
Ryobi 12" drill press
Ryobi 9" bandsaw (the only purchase so far that I regret)
Skilsaw circular saw (old and not great)
Delta 1HP DC and DIY air filter (window fan/furnace filter setup)
big ShopVac
a good makita cordless drill/driver, a couple palm sanders, a couple jig saws, hand saws, a kreg screw jig, not enough clamps, a dovetail jig, and other assorted stuff

The obvious first choice was a table saw. But I'm hurting for space here, and safety is a concern due to my inexperience. And again, no 220.

Tied for first is a real workbench.

So I've been thinking of maybe an EZ saw track setup and new circular saw to supplant the table saw for breaking down sheet goods for the bookshelves and things. And maybe it could be incorporated into a bench that would serve regular bench duty when I'm not using the EZ?

Other ideas....a second and maybe third 690 to keep for non-table use? (Lots of routing involved in the guitar building!)

Maybe a small compressor for finish nailing and general shop/house use?

More and better clamps, bits, rules, etc. are a given and will be part of the plan as are the consumables - lumber, fasteners, sandpaper, etc.

I'd love to hear other ideas...maybe hopefully things I haven't even considered yet. Keep in mind I'm stuck with buying new most of the time - not a lot of craigslist activity in my neck of the woods, for example.

[Brian Kent]

My intuition says either a table saw or a bandsaw, spending the whole amount on one or the other if it is new. (See Grizzly for best bang for the buck).

How about bandsaw use for making guitars. Seems like a lot of curves.

Thanks for letting us help you spend you money:D!

Brian

[Mike Package]

My intuition says either a table saw or a bandsaw, spending the whole amount on one or the other if it is new. (See Grizzly for best bang for the buck).

How about bandsaw use for making guitars. Seems like a lot of curves.

Thanks for letting us help you spend you money:D!

Brian

I'm sure I would appreciate a good bandsaw. But I'm a bit worried I won't get a ton of use out of it relative to what a good one would cost? The little Ryobi can handle the rough cut of a guitar neck blank, but I haven't tried a full thickness body blank yet (8/4), nor have I tried upgrading the blade. I'm a little worried it will be like trying to cut a brick with dental floss...

So... definitely a consideration - thanks for the input!

[scott spencer]

16' x 19' isn't big, but it's adequate if you're careful. It's a good idea to post your general geographic area...people may know of good deals on tools, and some close by may even offer hands on help. (woodworkers tend to be a pretty nice bunch!)

A decent table saw is the #1 tool in my shop, but YMMV. A hybrid saw offers a full size table that takes up less room than a traditional contractor saw with the motor hanging out the back. They also have ample power and good stability within your price range.

A router is pretty important for guitar making...your 690 is nice router, but you may find that you want/need more than one. You may also find that a bigger router table, possibly mounted in your TS wing, will be useful.

I had a little 9" Ryobi BS, then switched to a bigger cast iron 12" Craftsman. I think ultimately a 14" is better yet.

You may eventually want a thickness planer and a jointer...the natural progression from those brings the subject of dust collection into the picture.

Good used tools are usually your best bang for the buck. Making your workbench and router table saves money and are both great early projects.

Your local library should have several good wwing books....check them out.

Here's my layout in an 11' x 19" space:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/myshop.jpg

[Stephen Edwards]

For me, the TS would be priority #1, also. I would also consider either mobile bases or very stable casters for all of the floor machines. You'll find this to be very helpful in small quarters. I would check the used route to get more bang for the buck to begin with. There are LOTS of good deals out there right now on used woodworking machines.

I know that many will disagree with me but, you can get a lot of mileage out of a good 10" contractor's TS, properly set up and with a 2HP motor on it. Many members here in fact do just that, myself included. Sure, I'd like a bigger, better TS but the fact is I don't need one for what I do.

A good 14" BS with a riser block should take care of your stated needs. Again, there are some great deals out there right now on used BS's. If you can't find what you want in a used saw, I'm with Brian: Check out Grizzly for more bang for your buck in the new machine department.

Good luck with your choices and happy woodworking!

[John Bailey]

If it were me, I'd spend $200 on an EZ, $200 on an upgraded circular saw and the rest on a decent 14" bandsaw. You can get the GO555X right now for $575 although I'd look for a used Delta, the older the better, and save a little money. I've lived without a table saw for a long time and probably will never have another one. You can do a lot with a decent bandsaw.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I think you've got a nice space to work with.

John

[Mike Package]

Thanks again for the input so far.

I'm in the sticks east of Pittsburgh PA. I've been asking around and checking CL regularly but haven't spotted any good used tool deals to fit my needs and wants. With garage sale season coming around, maybe that will change...

I just caught wind of the Home Depot power tool sale, and it might sway me....I could walk away with a Rigid 4511 hybrid table saw, the Rigid 13" thickness planer, and another PC router and stay within my budget. The 4511 is a very heavy machine though - I'll need to double check my floor support. :D

I think a larger bandsaw is an inevitability, especially with the guitar building in mind. But I'm having trouble seeing it as a top priority right now. I feel like it's something I could wait on, maybe until a great used deal comes along. I can even rough out the guitar shapes with a jigsaw if need be. The final shaping happens with a pattern-following routing bit riding my templates, and sanding, and other hand carving.

The building in question...too embarrassed to take any pics of the inside yet:

[David Hostetler]

Not sure why you are fussing about space in a 16x19 space... I am in 12x16 and have the following equipment...

Ryobi BT3100 with full wide table kit. (72" right rip capacity).
Ryobi AP1301 13" planer
Ridgid EB4424 Oscillating belt / spindle sander. (My FAVORITE tool so far).
Sunhill SM-150B 6" benchtop jointer.
Harbor Freight 14" bandsaw, riser block, upgraded guides, blades, and fence.
Harbor Freight 12x36" lathe. (Jet 1236 clone).
Harbor Freight 2HP dust collector.
Big shop vac with Thien Trash can cyclone.
Small shop vac for messy stuff.
B&D Firestorm miter saw & stand.
Workbench.
6" bench grinder.
Old Mechanics rolling tool chest stack.
Ryobi Biscuit Joiner.
Ryobi VSR Driver / Drill
Craftsman VSR drill.
Ryobi Quarter sheet sander.
Skil orbital sander.
Ryobi detail sander.
Old 14 amp Skil Saw. Old but it works real well.
Old Skil jig saw. Absolute junk.
Arrow stapler / brad nailer (my BIG tool regret, this thing is JUNK!)
Shop built clamp racks stuffed with HF bar clamps, pipe clamps, Wolfcraft strap clamps etc...
Wall full of hand tools, measuring & marking tools

Your 16x19 would feel monsterously large to me! It's all in how your organize it. And mine is a MESS right now!

If it were me outfitting that shop, I would be looking at a table saw, or a larger band saw. Resawing veneer would be virtually impossible with that little Ryobi. It should be obvious I am not anti Ryobi...

If you REALLY want a good belt drive, riving knife equipped table saw, that is affordable, and stows somewhat easily, take a look at the Craftsman Model #21829. It is basically an upgraded Ryobi BT3100 mounted on a nice folding stand... These saws have a pretty big following, of very happy users.

[Rick Gifford]

My shop is only 11" X 20". Its loaded with tools.

I second the comments on a table saw. Its the workhorse of a shop in my opinion. With the budget you have Id give Grizzly serious consideration. Watch bulletin ads maybe you'll find a good used tablesaw. I sold a Bosch 4000-09 for only $350 and it was perfect shape.

Also take a look at industrial auctions at w w w (dot) irsauctions.com

So many wood working places going out of business. You might find some tools you find is worth a drive to pick up.

[Peter Scoma]

I am in 12x16


My shop is only 11" X 20".

Amateurs. My shop is 9x10 :D

To the OP. You wont regret purchasing a decent TS. I'm in Philly and about 3 hrs away from Grizzly. Muncy/Williamsport is sort of on the way from Philly to PBurg which puts you about 4 hrs away. If funds don't allow, purchase a solid contractors saw which I don't doubt will serve your needs well. Of course if a uni pops up on CL, itd be a better option.

Nice shop building you have BTW. Its look like the woodwrights shop :)

ps

[Perry Underwood]

Mike, I build solidbody electric guitars, and I remember when I was in the guitar building and repair program in Red Wing, Minnesota that the question of what stationary power tools were necessary was asked and discussed.

The first stationary tool I bought was a spindle sander. This is crucial for sanding inside curves of a guitar body as well as some parts of the neck, such as the transition of the neck to the headstock. Another good tool to have is a disc sander to sand the outside curves of a guitar body. The Rigid EB4424 would give you the spindle sander and edge sander, and you could use the edge sander to sand the outside curves. About $250.

You already have a drill press and router. Mention has been made of updating to a better and larger bandsaw, and that would be an excellent idea. If you are buying your wood rough sawn a planer and/or drum sander would be a good idea, as would a jointer.

Since the amount of workspace is limited the Shop Fox benchtop jointer, W 1694, might be right for you. I have it and use it to prepare the edges of wood before gluing them. It may not face plane large boards very well, but for what I use it for it works well. The Grizzly GO612 seems to be the same jointer. Less than $200, more shipped.

[Mike Package]

Thanks again guys. Sorry if I came off wrong about the size - put it this way - I don't want to turn what is a comfortable space into an uncomfortable one. It also doesn't help that this building is a catch-all for misc. junk. Anybody need an old Bowflex, with free bonus sawdust protective coating? :D

Perry, good call on the spindle sander. Right now I have a small drum sanding kit for the drill press. It works pretty decently. But a dedicated machine would be nice. And the oscillating probably helps a lot, eh?

So far nearly everyone is in agreement on the TS which is pretty telling...

[Stephen Edwards]

Mike, I really like your shop building! It has the sort of character that appeals to my eye. I think that it's also very cool that you're giving new life to an old spring house. Is the spring still a good spring?

Thanks for posting the photo of your shop. My first thought when I saw that was......he's got room to grow should he ever decide to build a shed roof addition to that building!


I, too, live in the sticks. My shop, such as it is, is an ongoing project that I've been working on for several years. Thus far it's a roughly 12 X 48 section of a 38 X 48 100 year old barn. When I tackled this project it had dirt floors and dilapidated animal stalls in what is now the shop area. It's got a long ways to go but I keep in mind that it has come along ways already. I get a good feeling from knowing that the building has "history".

Be proud of your shop!

[Lee Mitchell]

Have a yard sale for some of that "misc junk" and add some more tool dollars to your budget. :)

If you have an electrician friend, go ahead and put 220 in your shop. Since you already have a sub-panel, it shouldn't be a huge expense. (Maybe that bowflex will pay for it.;) ) That'll open up more options for you.

Do check out Grizzly, if you haven't already done so. They have quite a bit of merchandise geared to guitar makers.

In my 12x16 shop, I have a 3 hp table saw, 14" bandsaw, 6" jointer, 12" planer, (all Grizzly) and a compressor, scroll saw, workbench, a full size gas stove double laundry sink, and a battery charger. (Last 3 for restoring cast iron cookware.) Plus, and assortment of small stuff.

With your space, I'd be in hog heaven. With stuff to sell to get more tools, I'd be in even bigger hog heaven!

Jes my 2-cents, this morn.

[Paul Murphy]

I think some other posters have hit on the essential logic of your situation:

What tools do you need to build solid body guitars?

I have talked with one guy who resaws full width guitar blanks from thick stock, and for him the most important power tool is a bandsaw with sufficient cutting height and power for that task. I'm not sure he even owns a tablessaw.

Without 220V service you will be limited to 2HP or less, but I think that would get the job done. Really fancy resaw bandsaws are being offered with 3-5HP, so perhaps plan to upgrade the electrical service?

How wide do you plan to make your guitar body? There is your defining point if you will be resawing body blanks.

With a nice bandsaw it sounds like you might not even need a tablesaw.

[Mike Package]

Mike, I really like your shop building! It has the sort of character that appeals to my eye. I think that it's also very cool that you're giving new life to an old spring house. Is the spring still a good spring?

Thanks for posting the photo of your shop. My first thought when I saw that was......he's got room to grow should he ever decide to build a shed roof addition to that building!


I, too, live in the sticks. My shop, such as it is, is an ongoing project that I've been working on for several years. Thus far it's a roughly 12 X 48 section of a 38 X 48 100 year old barn. When I tackled this project it had dirt floors and dilapidated animal stalls in what is now the shop area. It's got a long ways to go but I keep in mind that it has come along ways already. I get a good feeling from knowing that the building has "history".

Be proud of your shop!

Thanks! And yeah, I'm pretty lucky. Especially lucky that it was already wired and mostly insulated. It's a little rough, but lots of potential.

The spring? Kinda sorta. My well is artesian and they routed the overflow so that it exits a pipe right behind the springhouse. You can almost see in the picture, the watercress behind the building. That needs cleaned up though. It just spills out...makes for a swampy area and floods the 'basement' of the springhouse. So somewhere on the honey-do list is rerouting the water long enough to shore up the foundation and create a better path for the water to the creek which runs about 100 yds back.

Anyway, like I said, lots of potential and I'm excited about it.

I'll make you feel better about your barn. I also had a barn...it was about 130 years old, maybe 60x60, three stories. But it was falling down. Termites had ruined most of the large structural timbers. But the siding was good. The loft was piled with the old planks from a previous floor. Lots of 18"+ wide pine, fir, etc. A lot of it harvested from my property.

.

.

.

I gave it all away. :o

That was obviously before I got interested in wood, and was only interested in getting an unsafe building removed. I try not to think about it now...

Have you posted any pics of your barn? I'd like to see them...

[John Buzzurro]

Personally, I'd buy a tablesaw like the Bosch 4000 or 4100, with the gravity rise stand. You can fold it up and put it to the side when not in use, and you can run it on 110V. I have the 4000, because of the space problem, and it works well for me.

[Neil Bosdet]

I too, am going to suggest improving your panel. Extra room on the panel and 220 will be appreciated down the line. As well, all the suggestions above are great. I am a big fan of air tools and compressors. For space and portability I like the Rigid twin stack oilless compressor. It is a little noisier than others but it's well built, low priced and has a super fast recovery. I dare say you could do some spraying with it for small projects (like guitars). You will want to do this at some point. Rigid also has a contractor saw that is pretty good. Heavy cast top, strong motor, on wheels, good trunion system and great price. Good luck outfitting your shop. It's an evolution, don't be in too big a rush.

[Clint Schlosser]

If you are making guitars I would say the following

Bandsaw - For cutting curves
Oscillating Sander - Ridgid has a decent cheap one and good for sanding those curves
Hand planes and scrapers - These would help surface the stock and help with mitres for the trim in your house.

[Mike Package]

Great ideas guys, please keep them coming.

Re: what tools needed to build the guitars? In my case, the most essential tool is the router (check), a drill press (check), followed by either bandsaw or jigsaw (sorta check), planer (I have a small drill-press-chucked planer designed for guitar building, so sorta check again), and then various sanding tools, jigs and hand tools. And then as mentioned, maybe a spray rig for finishing. With guitars, you can also buy any of the pieces premade or nearly premade. So that allows for some flexibility and for the tool chest to grow slowly. You can get surfaced body blanks for example that would negate the need for the planer.

I don't have any immediate plans to resaw any wood. For bodies I will either be buying premade body blanks, or 8/4 boards that would need to be joined and planed to 1 3/4 or so. But I can definitely see resawing becoming a future need to open up more possibilities. I also own a dozen-ish acres of wooded property that I might dig into someday. So a big beefy bandsaw is definitely in the cards, maybe in a later phase of the evolution unless a crazy deal comes along?

The TS won't see much if any use for the guitars, but I imagine it would be heavily used for the small furniture and home improvement projects. Right now the best I can do with a sheet of plywood is my Skilsaw and AIO clamping guide. For the most part, it works, but is certainly not ideal and obviously only 1% as versatile as a TS.

[Lee Mitchell]

Uhmmmm... wooded property ... tap into...

Consider adding to the list the tools to mill that wood. Chain saw for starters. Since it takes time to air dry wood, my 2-cents is to go ahead and get started in that area, as soon as you can.

IMHO, in a couple of years, it'll be nice to pull from your private stock of air dried 2by for your next project. For now, concentrate on what it takes to get some of that wood stickered. That'll give you plenty of time to consider tools to work that wood.

Again, just 2-cents, from wishing I'd taken my own advice a few years ago.

Lee in NC

[Nathan Callender]

My 0.02 - I'm new here, but I've just gone through this. Right now I'm building cabinets and furniture and a short scale bass guitar is in the works in the next few months! I've done woodworking for a while and as a kid but with mostly hand tools and portable tools, but I recently got the ridgid 3660 table saw and their thickness planer. Both are reasonably solid - especially for a hobbyist. I'm in a 2 car garage, and I've set it up so I can put my workbench and table saw up against one side and still park both cars in there (it's a bit of a squeeze). All the other tools sit on a shelf in the workbench.

The table saw is great - believe me, you can do unbelievable things with a good table saw. They are very functional. I have no idea how I got by without one for this long. :-) (I have done the skilsaw/shooting board thing and it does work well for cutting straight lines in sheet goods) Anyway, when I was deciding on the saw, it was between the 3660 and the 2400 which is a large folding saw. I thought I could get more free space if I could fold it up out of the way when not in use. I finally decided that in actuality I would never do that - I'd just leave it out. Who wants to have to set up their saw each time they want to use it? Especially if you have a dedicated area. Plus, the 3660 is a lot heavier but it comes with a lift so it's easy to roll around. It also turns out that the smaller saws have a universal motor in them instead of an induction motor. I've promised myself that I'll never buy another universal motor again if I can help it - induction motors are much quieter, and it makes a big difference even with hearing protection.

So, since you already have a router, drill press, and small band saw (for which you could build an extension table and 9" should be enough to resaw the blank halves of a guitar) I'd suggest a good table saw, planer and jointer to process rough lumber.

If you are lacking experience, get some good books on how to use a table saw, read the manual, go slowly and use common sense. Look for a woodworking club or talk to some guys at the local lumberyard or a community college to see if they'll teach you the basics.

[Mike Package]

Uhmmmm... wooded property ... tap into...

Consider adding to the list the tools to mill that wood. Chain saw for starters. Since it takes time to air dry wood, my 2-cents is to go ahead and get started in that area, as soon as you can.

IMHO, in a couple of years, it'll be nice to pull from your private stock of air dried 2by for your next project. For now, concentrate on what it takes to get some of that wood stickered. That'll give you plenty of time to consider tools to work that wood.

Again, just 2-cents, from wishing I'd taken my own advice a few years ago.

Lee in NC

I have and use a nice Stihl saw. Getting some wood started is a good idea and something I hadn't really given much thought to. But you've given me a good idea. I can at least get some started and then hopefully a few years from now I'll have some small idea of what to do with it! :D

[Brian Smith3]

I've built about 6 or so solid body bass guitars. Of course you already know that you don't really need a tablesaw for guitars. There's an article by Gary Rogowski in fine woodworking that goes through 5 essential tools without a tablesaw, that's really perfect advice for someone building guitars, so I think you should read that. You may need to make a temporary (free) logon account. http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/fwnpdf/011153068.pdf

In doing guitars, the bandsaw would be the heart of my shop. I would definitely get a good quality band saw as I used mine extensively, I would even consider a 17". I would not do a circular saw guide and rail system because you will not be able to get a deep enough cut on 8/4 with a 7.25" blade up on a rail. You should get a 3.25 hp router. Something like the Hitachi 12V. I also found a Porter Cable 3/4 hp laminate trimmer very helpful because of its size in doing the pickup cavities, etc. I would buy 4 or so Bessey 7" throat clamps, those were super helpful. The spindle sander was real helpful. Then you need to look at how you are going to finish the guitars, if you need a compressor etc.

Then if you use body blanks you really won't need a jointer or a planer, but I would look at those next. They allow you to buy a larger variety of stock for your projects.

[John Bailey]

[/QUOTE]I would not do a circular saw guide and rail system because you will not be able to get a deep enough cut on 8/4 with a 7.25" blade up on a rail. [/QUOTE]


That's a good point I haven't thought of. Scratch the track system I recommended.:D

John

[Mike Package]

Thanks guys. The TS and/or circ/rail system would have nothing to do with guitars - that would be for other uses. New shop cabinets, bookshelves, etc.

[glenn bradley]

I don't want to turn what is a comfortable space into an uncomfortable one.

Wise words. I have about 21 x 31 and visitors think I have a lot of room; I don't. I need a certain amount of open space and organization in order for me to enjoy this hobby. Some folks don't. :)

[Von Bickley]

Mike,

Are you sure that you do not have 220 in your sub-panel. I can't imagine anyone would run a cable to a sub-panel and not have it hooked up for 220.

Do you only have a single breaker feeding the sub-panel? If the sub-panel is fed with a double breaker, you have 220 in the sub-panel........

[Mike Package]

Mike,

Are you sure that you do not have 220 in your sub-panel. I can't imagine anyone would run a cable to a sub-panel and not have it hooked up for 220.

Do you only have a single breaker feeding the sub-panel? If the sub-panel is fed with a double breaker, you have 220 in the sub-panel........


I'm sure glad you posted this because it made me think that I hadn't actually looked at the panel since we moved in a few years ago. Not only is there 220, there is a 220 outlet already wired up in the center of the room on top of a joist, under some crap. I had never seen it...

[Mike Package]

Still pretty conflicted about this choice.

I was this close to going to HD to pick up a Ridgid 4511 today but stopped myself. I think maybe because of the weight of it and the thought of getting it into my building and having that boulder sitting on the thin chipboard floor. I'm also not real fond of being an early adopter of the latest...anything...

The idea of a more portable saw with a workstation/bench built around it became more appealing to me. Something like the aforementioned Bosch 4100. But I think I would be frustrated with the small table until I would be able to get the workstation going.

Craigslist is still a bust. Unless I'm looking for vintage Craftsman weed whackers or box store 12v cordless bits...a nice TS shows up now and again but usually too nice...too pricey and even bigger/heavier than the 4511.