Building a WW Bench - need advise.....

[Roy Wall]

Hey guys,

I've got the opportunity to get a 2 3/4" x 25 x 60 laminated maple top for $150 to make my first bench. I may use 4x4 ipe' (ipay) for the posts and 2x6 maple stretchers (long & short sides). Plan on using 6" lag bolts to connect (recessed section of) 4x4s to stretchers (using imbedded nut). Probably, only the four posts will hit the floor (no sled foot), with possible metal adj. foot.

I want to use the long stretchers down low only to leave room for possible cabinet later. Short stretchers both low and high on the ends....

I've been reading the workbensh books by Sam Allen and Landis.

Your thoughts of this design and a few Questions:

Will I be dissappointed that the table is 60", versus 72+...?

How much overhang L/R, Front/Back should the top have?

For speed of assembly, ease of breakdown, but more importantly to keep tight adjusted joints, I was going to use the lag bolt/ nut system for all butt joints (4 - on the long stretchers, and 8 - on the short ones).....Good, bad, ugly....??

For the short stretchers that I'll attach the top to, do I need to leave them 1/4 proud of the upright 4x4's to allow for movement, even though they'll be bolted in???

Or, I could use another 4x4 for the upper short crosspiece, and/or use an open mortise/tennon joint. Again, leave this crosspiece 1/4" proud at top??

More to add, but this is a good start........

Thanks!

[Roger Bell]

Your plans sounds very similar to the Kirby bench shown in the Landis book, which is accompanied by drawings at the back of the book. I have built two of the Kirby style benches (one with 30x60 lam. maple top w/ record vise @190# total weight) and another (25x96 laminated particleboard top with formica overlay w/ two record vises at 300# weight). I substituted bed bolts from Lee Valley to attach the long stretchers instead of M and T joints Kirby shows and I substituted 4x4 material for the legs, stretchers and rails on both benches. I was interested in building a couple of good-enough benches fast with nothing elaborate or time consuming. I have used both benches for about ten years.

I have found that the 30x60 top to be adequate but just barely so. See Kirby's bridle joint for attaching the 4x4 upper rails to the legs (bridle joint) and also his method of attachment of the top to the rails (through bolts). That will speak to two of your questions and is one good way to proceed and is relatively easy. He shows the upper rails somewhat proud of the legs (which I did with the Bridle joint). He also shows a recommended overhang for the top (minimum 3" at each leg and 6" at the ends) which I found to be adequate for clamping. I wouldnt want less that 3". The area below the top and between the legs is full open on the Kirby bench which is really handy.

I dont know why you couldnt use bolts all the way around, but using M and T for the rails (top and bottom) and bolts for the stretchers only might give a more classy appearance to a rather plainjane design I would think and allows you to practise some rather straightforward hand joinery in the process. Bolts for the stretchers will allow you to take it apart if you ever need to.

You didnt say what kind of work you usually do. For assembly of furniture, the 30x60 is a bit small (for me...especially the narrow width) and I need to use another table much of the time for assembly of larger stuff. For a one bench man, a 25x60 might not be enough....depending on what you do. The 30x60 works well enough for me since I have a second bench/table half a step away to stage tools not in immediate use, leaving the bench clear for action. There is not a lot of extra room for clutter on a bench of this size.

For heavy hand planing, my 30x60 @190# is a bit light in weight and the bench tends to move a bit much a little too often for my tastes. My 25x72@300# does not move at all. You will gain a bit of weight by using ipe and quite a bit more by adding a cabinet below and filling it up. I plan add a cabinet or drawers to mine one of these days for that reason. I recommend doing something to gain weight as much weight as possible if hand planing will be a primary use.

I use the 25x96 formica top bench for finishing work and for most gluing. Cleans up real nice. If I build another bench, based on my experience with these two, I will probably go for a 60x60 or so square top. If I were you, I would go ahead and build your 25x60 and get yourself a decent enough bench (by any standard) right now. After a couple of years, you will know better how it might be improved.

[Roy Wall]

Thanks for the reply!

I can get 1 1/2 thick, 25 x 72 for same price $180, or even go up to 25 x84 for $ 230 , but that's in the 1 1/2; maybe that's good enough????


I do plan on smaller casework, bedside dressers, small wall cabinets, toys, jewelry boxes, etc.... but who knows! I've made several Armoire's (24x44x72) but don't plan on those big items anymore. Maybe a coffee table size?

Did you just use a dowel to register the top - drop in in - and let the wieght hold it down??

[Mark Stutz]

Roy,
I did a similar thing for my first bench, or what will be "my first" sometime in the future> :D I bought a laminated top (Sjoberg) because I didn't think I had the skill, then ended up making the legs because the kit seemed too flimsy. The top is just registered on dowels and I have not had any problems. I would definitely add the cabinet for extra weight if you plan on doing any hand planing. That will be my next big shop project.
By the way, has anyone seen my "round tuit"? Too many projects and not enough time. :D

Mark

[Steve Cox]

My bench is 24 x 84 made from modified plans from the Sam Allen book. I find its' length to be more than adequate but sometimes the extra length just leaves room for clutter. I would recommend the 72" if you have the room. One other question is whether or not you have room for an assembly table. Mine is about 3' x 7', knee high just behind my bench. If I'm making drawers of something small the bench is used almost exclusively but if I'm making furniture the bench is used to make/modify parts and the table to put it together. So, as far as length goes, if you are neat and put your tools away as you use them plus you have an assembly table the 5' bench will be fine. If you don't have an assembly table or leave your tools out, build bigger, much bigger!:) One other consideration already mentioned in other posts is that a small bench may be too light for extensive hand planing. The ipe will help as will a cabinet underneath. As to construction, mine has doug fir 4 x 4 posts for legs with the stretchers m & t into the legs. I had stretchers just under the top but wound up cutting them out in order to install a large cabinet underneath. I was going to use blocks to attach the top to the posts but wound up using nothing since I cannot move the stop with it held on only by gravity. Hope this helps some.

[Alan Turner]

I think you will like the thicker top so you don't have to relegate mortising for the areas over the legs. On my bench I used bridle joints for the top cross pieces, cut oval holes in, and laged it on. Your stragey for catpured nuts and bolts for the long stretchers is what I did, using stub M&T's.
For sliding on the floor, and bec. my basement is sometimes wet a bit, I used rubber feet, from MSC Direct. About 2 3/4" dia. I think. They are solid, and adjustable to cover an uneven concerete floor. It does not slide at all. I used sled feet for the bottom stretcher. Off one end I added a 3x3, and into it set roller bearings. So I can pick up one end and walk it around, but when it is down, the bearings do not touch the floor.
I am a tool tray guy, and you could add one if you like. Give you a bit more width. I think mine finished at 72 x 26 1/2.
Attached is a pix showing the base, and captured nut. I personally like the unfinished bolts, and square nuts. I went with 1/2" by 6" bolts, and this seems to have been fine. As the seasons change, I may tighten the bolts if I think of it.
The tool tray is attached at the ends with end caps, and you could add a bit of length with such an approach. Maybe up to 8" without difficulty. Remember to slot all of the holes, but for the front one. My tool tray is pretty structural, and iwth a block the same depth as the tray, I can clamp to it.

[Roy Wall]

Good points all....

I'll use the bridle joint for top of base, and notch out a little stub tenon(s) for the lower stretchers - in addition to the bolts.

Register the top with dowels (if I don't like it, I'll lag'em later.)

Alan, I'll look into those feet from MSC - sounds perfect! Looks like you just placed the 8/4 top cross piece between an open mortise at the top of the posts?

Round dog holes (3/4) spacing @ 6 -8-10 inches?- I'll see if I can get a vertical jig to hold the drill...

[Steve Cox]

I went with dog holes at 7" spacing. I had a reason:confused: I think it has to do with the opening width of the Veritas twin screw vise I have on the end. As far as a jig, use a 3/4" sheet of plywood with three blocks screwed to it where three holes are to go. They should be in a "L" shape the distance in length and width of your dog hole rows. Drill 3/4" holes in all three places on your drill press and insert dowels in two of them. Use the dowels to register the distances and the third hole to set the drill bit straight for drilling the dog holes. Works like a champ. If this is confusing post again and I'll try to explain further.

[Alan Turner]

I spaced the round holes even with the rectangular holes, and can't recall the spacing at this time, but it was all laid out, and drilled on the drill press before I glued up the top. To do over again, I would increase slightly the number of dog holes, both round and rectangular.

The bridle joint was recessed for a locking configuration. I recall that they were very tight, and after driving them together, I had trouble opening them to glue it. Had to llosen tehm a bit for glue space, as I recall.

Have fun. The bench is my most used tool in the shop.

[Roy Wall]

Steve,

Had to read the post 2-3 times, but I finally got it! Makes sense....
I do like the LV twin-screw vise.
Alan, I may just extend the bench with decorative endcaps - good thoughts.


So many benches, designs, options, etc.... I'll pick up some wood and just get going (athough is will be Mid-September before I can actually start cutting!

I also like Bob Key's bench! What do you guys think about using the Veritas Twin-screw on the face of the bench? I guess if I do that I'll only have one row of dog holes to drill....
Here's a couple of pics of the old front vise....I can put it on another bench if needed:

[Roger Bell]

I would recommend going thicker than 1 1/2" if you can for the top. Perhaps, if price or availability is an issue, you could build a "sub-top" of mdf or particleboard (perhaps somewhat smaller in overall size so the edges wont show) and place your 1 1/2" top atop the "sub-top". That way you would have a nice 3" or so thick top and some extra weight.

I am not sure I understand your question about registering the top to the upper rails with dowells. I drilled thru the top and thru the upper rails for four bolt holes. The holes in the maple top were counterbored to 1" to a depth of about 1/4" or so. The top was thru-bolted to the upper rails and I made some cocobolo plugs for the holes, and planed them flush with the top. Looks pretty sharp. They are placed "loose" without glue. Thus, I can take off the nuts below the rails and tap the bolts from below and pop the cocobolo plugs and remove the top from the base in a couple of minutes for transport (as I had to do when I moved).

I would recommend the twin screw vise be placed on the end. And you can use the vise you have as a side vise. A single (or preferably double) row of dog holes can service the twinscrew end vise and a single row of dog holes going the other (25") way can service the side vise.

I used stub tenons with my bolted stretchers as well....adds a lot of substance without a lot of fastidious work.

To Alan....can your MSC screw in rubber feet be fitted to a threaded insert and placed endgrain in a standard leg? If so, I might do that. Right now, I have the legs resting on so-called non-slip router pad material. It doesnt quite cut it the mustard and I dont want to screw a cleat to the floor, since I move the bench around from time to time.

[Roy Wall]

Roger,
thanks for the recommendations....I'll go double-row (maybe triple) the length of the bench to utilize the LV twin screw vise effectively!

About the dowels.... I saw in the "workbench book" by Landis that someone used a single dowel (center on each of the two upper cross braces) to "drop" the top into........it held nicely without bolts, so that' why I ask. You're method is perfectly acceptable to, and probably stronger - I agree it doesn't seem like a big hassle to break down (if needed).

[Steve Cox]

I went with four rows of dog holes down the length of the bench (25" wide). The outer ones about 2" in from the sides and 7" spacing between in the center. I use them all, mostly for holdfasts and especially for stops that span between two or more dog holes as Sam Allen decribes in his workbench book. The stops and jigs (i.e. shooting board) that span two or more holes are the reason I used the jig described above to lay out the holes so that they are equal. This is the second bench top I have made (the first one warped) and this became really important to me after I screwed it up on the first one. I also would recommend that you use the twin screw on the end and the other on the face. Space the screws as far apart as possible on the Veritas and use the space between to hold boards for dovetailing.

[Roy Wall]

Steve,

Thanks for the help! sounds like all thos holes do come in handy!!

How do guys do it with just one row in the front??:)

I appreciate it!!!

[Tyler Howell]

[QUOTE=Alan Turner]

Nice Bench Alan, Let's see the rest of it.

[Alan Turner]

Roger,
You can make it work, several ways. You could epoxy a barrel nut into the bottom of the leg. You could use a captured nut, and a second nut on the bottom, and tighten against each other. The legs will add aobut 3/4" to the height.

Tyler,
Here are a few pix of the bench with the Emmert mounted.

Alan

[John Allman]

Just to add to the great comments here, consider the LV Workbench plans.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.asp?page=31146&category=1,46158,42665&abspage=1&ccurrency=2&SID=W65T3

For US$9.50 they might save you a lot of grief. They used a truss rod design for the base that has been very stable. They show options allowing for a lower shelf or cabinets.

As not much more than a novice I built the centre trough workbench over ten years ago, and it has been a joy to work on ever since. I used 1.5" maple for the skirts which gives lots of opportunity for front face dog holes (very handy) and mounting vises. (I used a big Record and the LV tail vise on mine.)

I would also point out that LV suggests drilling the dog holes at 49/64", just a hair over the 3/4" diameter of the dogs etc. This too has worked well.

Are you using Ipe because you already have it, its weight, or you have regular flooding? While I am sure it is fine it would be more expensive than other woods available in my part of the world. I used soft maple as an attractive reasonably priced solution.

John

[Mark Singer]

Alan,
Is that an original Emmert or a reproduction? How do you like using the vise?

[Alan Turner]

Mark,
It is an original, a No. 2, which is a bit harder to find. Jaws are 14 x 4, instead of 18 by 7. I even have the third jaw, which is pretty rare. I got a tip from a friend that a pattern shop was closing, and I raided it. Some interesteing tools. Bought 5 Emmerts, one for me, and 4 for friends. (They pd. me back, of course.) Each was $175. I felt like I was stealing. Also got a couple of 50 lb. weights. They were cast iron, made for that shop. They have handles, for ease of lifting, and a ground bottom, and two adjacent ground sides at 90Deg.
Got the best marking guage I have ever seen. It is my go-to guy. Has a spring steel back, which holds the beam frim to the head. You can set it by registering the cutter in the etched line on a steel rule, and when you take it off the rule, the head does not move at all, so you can comfortably tighten the screw without contortion, or any slipage. I use it always, and only use others if I need more than one set up. But usually I just reset this one since it is so easy and accurate.
Pattern shops have interesting toys. Wish I would have bought more. An Oliver 299d, with knife grinder and new bearings, went for $2500, and a 16" reground cresent jointer for 1500. Neither would fit into my basement, unfortunately, or I would have done the deed.
Alan

[Roy Wall]

Are you using Ipe because you already have it, its weight, or you have regular flooding? While I am sure it is fine it would be more expensive than other woods available in my part of the world. I used soft maple as an attractive reasonably priced solution.

John
John,

Thanks for the info..........I only consider the IPE for its weight; plus I like the looks of it.

But FYI to all ------this project is now on 2 month+ hold!! I ruptured my achilles tendon first week of August & had surgery. On crutches ever since and until mid Sept., then a walking boot/cast for another 4-6 weeks, then start more normal activities------so, it will be a while...

[David Tang]

The October 2004 issue of Woodworker's Journal has a pullout highlighting Ian Kirby's and Frank Klausz's workbenches. Kirby's is no-frills with a side vise (it might have been in Landis' book). Klausz's is a work of art European bench with a leg vise and an end vise.

Last year, I built one like Kirby's with a 30x72 top of laminated plywood trimmed with maple. It's really heavy. I have a tool shelf below stuffed with all my power tools that adds to its weight and stability. It's taken a pretty good beating and hasn't fallen apart yet. I use it as an assembly and general work table. At some point, I'm going to drill some holes in it for the Wonderdogs I bought a few months ago.

[Alan Turner]

If I am not mistaken, in the Landis book are prints and measured drawings of both the Kirby bench, and the Klauz bench. My preference was what I built, which is a lot closer to the Fortune bench. I like the shoulder vise of Klauz, but my shop is so small that I did not want to give up that much lateral space. In a bigger shop, I think I might have gone that way.
Alan

[Roy Wall]

If I am not mistaken, in the Landis book are prints and measured drawings of both the Kirby bench, and the Klauz bench. My preference was what I built, which is a lot closer to the Fortune bench. I like the shoulder vise of Klauz, but my shop is so small that I did not want to give up that much lateral space. In a bigger shop, I think I might have gone that way.
Alan
You are correct Alan......drawings of those and other benches in the Landis book. I too like the Fortune/Nelson style; or a Veritas type. Either way, I've decided to go at least 72" in length.......