Framing my basement...any advice?

[Tim Morton]

I have cleared most of the junk out of my basement and am going to frame about half of it for a finished room for my teenage daughters to have a hang out room. I have lived in this new house for 3 plus years and it is bone dry so I feel safe in proceeding. Tomorrow I plan on going to HD and buying the wood to frame the walls. What are the "must haves" here. Can I build any or all of the walls using 2x3's to save money? When does the vapor barrier for the floor go down? Under the walls or stapled to the walls after they are in place? I do not plan on treating the walls with any water sealant..am I OK to do that? Can I use metal framing as a first time DIY, and if so will that be any cheaper or faster? I plan on insulating and am not sure what kind of heat i will use, but probably will add a forced hot water heater off my existing system. In other words...what is the first step once I make up some working drawings tonight. I figure i will be building about 80 running feet of wall so 2x3's would save me about a $150 bucks. I don't want to cheap out, but it is going to be a fairly basic finished L-shaped room when done.

[Chris Padilla]

Concrete and wood do not mix...concrete is porous. You must either put a vapor barrier between the wood and concrete or use pressure-treated lumber. Even with PT, I would use a vapor barrier. I'm not sure about sealing the concrete but that might work, too.

As far as 2x3s, I guess it would be okay...never heard of them...might you mean 2x2s? Do they sell such "furring" strips? I thought one had to rip 2x4s in half. I think you should go with 2x4 framing whether wood or metal. It will need to take a few impacts from head-banging teenagers and errant flying items! :)

[Gary Max]

I would go with treated for the base plate and I would use 2x4's. Think about the wall as a support for the 1st story floor---it will serve two functions at once.

[Sam Chambers]

Tim:

In addition to what Chris said:

1. Check your local building codes. Many require pressure treated lumber where it contacts a concrete wall or floor.

2. Don't skimp on the insulation, especially in a cold climate like yours. So, in order to have more insulation, you'll need larger stud cavities, so I'd use 2x4's. If the rooms end up being cold all the time, it'll be a very expensive proposition to fix it.

3. Consider insulating the floor as well. Maybe lay down some 2x4 sleepers and put rigid foam insulation between them.

[Tim Morton]

So it looks like I need to stick with 2x4's for everything except the exterior wall joists which I think can be 2x3's as no support will be needed. and vapor barrier as a start...that should take me though the weekend. here is what I have come up with asa rough drawing...later I will take some measurements. I think i will need about 70 2x3's and 50 2x4's plus 12 2x4 PT.

[JayStPeter]

Yes, PT on the floor. I didn't put any form of vapor barrier before building the walls. Nor do the builders I've looked at.
My concrete walls already had insulation with built in vapor barrier nailed up. So, I spaced my walls out to leave it there and save some cash. One section had a door to the outside, so I put the 2x4's up against concrete with a vapor barrier and isulated there. I briefly thought about using 2x3s to save some money, but when I looked at them, they were even more twisted and warped than 2x4s. Plus, I have 9' ceilings and they didn't come in the 104" length, only 10'. So, cost was the same.
One of the problems with metal studs is noise transmission. I realize this isn't a shop, but you still want your kids to be able to play down there without hearing every detail above. For this purpose, they make slightly wider insulation to go between metal studs to help dampen the noise transmission by ensuring it is up against the studs (usually sold anywhere metal studs are sold). So, don't forget to factor any cost difference this puts into the equation when making material determination. Also, are you planning on gluing and screwing the drywall. You have to w/metal.
I figure I could be faster with wood. A stop block on my miter saw made quick work of getting the studs to length. A nailer assembled sections in minutes. I've seen a good metal stud guy work much faster than me with that stuff, but I figured the learning curve would make it take longer for me.

Personally, I think any of the ideas you have will work. I don't see any real reason to avoid any of 'em. Good luck. BTW, how much time you planning on spending ;) :D ? I did my basement shop in merely 2x budget and 2x schedule expected. :cool:

Jay

[Joe Mioux]

Hi Tim

We just (well almost) finished the same basement project. I would use pressure treated lumber on the floor and 2x4's for all the walls. We insulated between the walls studs that are next to the concrete walls. Stay back a little bit from the concrete walls with your 2x's, for the reasons of concrete/wood contact. We also insulated the ceiling to keep noise from the first floor to minimum. We also drywalled the ceiling because it was cheaper than suspended ceiling tiles and it has a better appearance.

One other thing regarding your floor, in our area new basement construction gets plastic laid down first then the concrete floor is poured over that. I asked the flooring company people if we needed to put a vapor barrier down before the concrete and she said no

Hope this helps.

Joe

[Tim Morton]

GREAT point on the 2x3's being twisted...OK...all 2x4's. My daughter thinks she will be sleeping there this weekend :) I figure this will be a 2 month project including carpeting...and cost about $1500 bucks. So you are saying 4 months and 3 grand should cover it :eek:

[Paul Downes]

I did that a few years ago and in addition to the previous mentioned advise I would invest in a dehumidifier. In the summer if that space is not air conditioned the pipes will sweat and also the concrete gives off moisture. I insulated all the pipes. I also put in a drain along the outside walls to eliminate the water that seeps in when we get a deluge. I had to bust up some concrete along one wall, and then dug down about 12"-16". After shooting suficient drop with a transit I buried with pea stone 2" PVC sloted every 12" with a framing saw leaving the bottom 1/3 of the pipe as a trough.

[Terry Hatfield]

Yo Tim,

Looks like the room would be MUCH better utilized if you just took it over for more shop space!! :D Hey, those teenagers will be gone soon anyway...right??? :D :D

Seriously, sounds like a good project. Great advice here already as usual.

Good luck with it,

Terry

[Dan Mages]

Good luck with the project.

Advice? Sure!!

1. Measure twice, cut once.
2. If this is for teenagers, insulate the ceiling and walls HEAVILY! This will help keep out the loud music.
3. Install hidden cameras in the walls so you can keep an eye on what they are doing ;)
4. Be careful of "while I'm at its!" It will eat your budget fast!
5. For the flooring. If you want to go cheap, check out 12x12 carpet tiles. They are easy to replace if they get wet or damaged.
6. For heating. If you have the budget, look into a small direct vent fire place. It will be a nice feature for a basement.

Good luck!

Dan

[Jim Becker]

Tim, when I finished the basement at my previous home, I went with metal studs and was tickled at the ease and speed of construction--and lower cost. The only thing I would have done differently is to still use a PT bottom plate to provide easier, secure attachment of baseboards using a nailer, rather than screws. A screw gun, tin snips and an inexpensive crimper are all you need to do the work, too. (well...you need a level and plumb-bob if you want things to be straight...) You'll still frame your doors with wood for strength. If you choose metal studs. Do check with your local authorities relative to wiring requirements. Some jurisdictions will allow romex with plastic gromets; others will require BX.

But even if you choose to go with wood for your walls, do consider using the metal for any soffet work...much easier to deal with, especially when working alone!

[Chris Padilla]

6. For heating. If you have the budget, look into a small direct vent fire place. It will be a nice feature for a basement.
Dan, good idea about the direct vent fireplace but that baby will eat up most of his budget fast!

Tim, the gas fireplace will work nicely and even be romantic...probably shouldn't go there, eh? :D

[Jerry Olexa]

Suggestion: get a dehumidifier to prevent warping etc and start it running as you build, Basements are notoriously bad w moisture this time of year!!:)

[Tim Morton]

there will be NO fireplace or wet bars, but a hidden camera is under consideration :cool:

I like the idea of 12x12 carpet squares.....would that be a rubberized backing and eliminate the need for a vapor barrier on the floor? I would like to find a job the kids could to do get a little sweat equity into the project and that sounds like they could do that.

[Rob Russell]

Tim,

I'd go with 2x4's. You're only doing this once.

A couple of things:
Standard insulation won't fit in a 2x3 bay - you need the depth of the 2x4.
You want any wiring at least 1 1/4" in from each side. That doesn't leave enough room for a double-sided wall to be 2x3's and run wiring easily.
Try to find a prehung door with 2x3 framing. Maybe you can, but 2x4 is definitely a lot more common.

JMO.

Rob

[Todd Franks]

Tim,

I just finished off a portion of my basement earlier this year that I am now using as my workshop :D . I applied for a permit and found the town building inspector to be quite helpful in pointing out code issues that the average homeowner would not know about. The usual disclaimer applies, meaning check with your local building official as your local code may vary, but here are the highlights of some things he pointed out to me.

If the area under the stairs is to be enclosed, meaning framed walls and doorway access, it must be finished with 5/8" type X drywall on ceiling and walls for fire protection.
Perimeter walls must be insulated with R-11 minimum. For me the only way to get this was 2x4 studs with 3-1/2" batts.
Any wood in direct contact with concrete must be pressure treated. Since my foundation walls were poured concrete and anything but plumb and straight, I had to leave a 1/2" to 1" gap to allow for the varying contour. I only ended up using PT for the sill and a few select places that were in direct contact with the foundation walls.
Vapor barrier equal to 1 perm rating, via faced batts or plastic sheeting applied directly over insulated studs.
Fireblocking required every 10ft horizontally and at the ceiling where the wall meets the ceiling joints. In normal wall construction any fire that occurs within the wall cavity would typically be contained to the 16" stud space. With basement construction there usually is a cavity behind the wall in which a fire could spread quickly. Therefore vertical fireblock every 10 ft is required to prevent rapid spread. I used 3/4" PT plywood scribed to fit the concrete wall then attached to the side of a stud. Same applies where the wall meets the ceiling. Fire can spread unabated behind the wall cavity and into the floor/ceiling joists above. A similar situation occurs in soffits. Therefore, a horizontal fireblock is required to prevent fire from rapidly spreading into the ceiling joist cavity.
I've attached a link to a document that has some other good basement specific building code info in it along with a detailed drawing showing the fireblocking. Just ignore the section on "floating walls", that only applies to the nasty expansive soil we have here in Colorado.

http://www.ci.longmont.co.us/bldginsp/pdfs/basement.pdf

Hope you found this useful,
Todd

[Dave Moran]

Don't forget door locks to keep inquisitive minds out of harms way in the shop.

Dave

[Aaron Montgomery]

If you haven't read it yet, check out this pdf for basement insulation. (http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/foundations/basement_insulation_systems.pdf)

[Dan Mages]

there will be NO fireplace or wet bars, but a hidden camera is under consideration :cool:

I like the idea of 12x12 carpet squares.....would that be a rubberized backing and eliminate the need for a vapor barrier on the floor? I would like to find a job the kids could to do get a little sweat equity into the project and that sounds like they could do that.

The carpet tiles are self adhesive and would go right down onto the concrete. You said you have hot water based heat throughout the house? You might want to look into that heated floor system that they like to use on This Old House. That should help eliminate the cold floor problem.

Dan

[Jason Thaxton]

you can use a product called rock wool for the fire blocking it is the easiest to install since you just stuff it between the wall and foundation. it is a fireproof insulation.

[Tim Morton]

picked up a new framing nailer to make the project go faster :cool:

I had a gift certificate and store credit at HD...so went in this morning to price out lumber and thought about what tools i might need to do this. So I went over and looked at the framing nailers....picked up a bostich 88ww stick nailer and thought, man is this thing a beast. But I saw a Porter Cable FC350A on the top shelf that looked to be in a much smaller box, but it was not on display, nor would it ring up at the register, so after 30 minutes of them trying to find it in the system they rang it up under clearance for $179!!. Plus it came with a free 50ft cable. So with my $60 dollars in GC and SC, I was out of it including a box of nails for just over $150 bucks. So check your HD's and see if they have the PC FC350A on the shelves and try and work out a deal. Now I need to get to it I guess.

[Peter Kuhlman]

While living in Traverse City, MI, I refinished my poored wall basement. With the very cold winter temperatures I was considering installing a raised insulated floor but ended up installing high quality 1/2" padding and a flat type almost indoor/outdoor quality carpet. It was AMAZING how much that helped keep the cold out. My basement was a walk-out. I used treated floor base and standard 2X4s with R-13 fiberglass and plastic vapor barrier on the inside NOT the outside of the wall. This was recommended by the building inspector. I had some temporary walls up for a while without vapor barrier and ice would for against the concrete during winter so stopping the inside moisture transmission was critical. When it is below freezing, outside moisture will not transfer through the concrete to cause build-up as it is already frozen. We regularly saw temps of -20 and as low as -44. You need to preplan all future wiring needs for a future tv/entertainment use as well as telephones, etc. I used finished drywall ceilings with 3 1/2" fiberglass to reduce noise transmission and was very happy with the results. I also insulated several of the inside walls to cut noise from the furnace and washer/dryer. Seriously consider planning for a future woodstove.
Good luck.
Pete

[Tim Morton]

I am just about done with framing and have a question about vapor barriers. I went with all 2x4 studs and used PT 2x4's on the floor spaced an extra 2" off the wall so i could use thicker insulation. What's next? Do I staple in the insulation and then staple vapor barrier over it and then the drywall on top of that? or does the vapor barrier go behind the framingand insulation? Seems to make sense that it goes on between the drywall and the insulation...but I have read it to be both ways and I'm looking for the correct way to do it. Now does the insulation come with its own built in vapor barrier so as to save a step? If so..what do i ask for?

[Dan Mages]

First, no framing gloat is official unless it is backed up by pictures. ;)

You should put the barrier on the concrete walls and between the insulation and drywall. Vapor barrier is a cheap product and it can't hurt to have a little extra.

Dan

[Jim Becker]

There should only be one vapor barrier...you never want one on both sides of the insulation as that would keep moisture "in". Generally, vapor barriers go on the "conditioned" side of the space and although there are some circumstances where the barrier would go to the outside (primarily in warm climates), in Tim's case, it should be between the insulation and the drywall. Kraft-faced insulation is the easiest and most expedient way to do the installation, although some folks prefer using unfaced insulation with a polyethelene (sp) vaport barrior stapled to the studs. If the unfaced material is chosen, some method for insuring it does not fall out the back of the wall needs to be made...monofilament or other durable materials can be strung and fastened to the back of the wall to help retain the 'glass in the stud bays.

If there is an excessive amount of moisture off the basement walls, that needs to be dealt with from the outside of the home...the vapor barrier is merely to guard against tranmission of "normal" moisture in the air through the wall during changing tempurature cycles.

[Rob Russell]

An option to reduce vapor bleed into your basement is to paint the concrete walls with DryLock paint before you insulate.

[Tim Morton]

Thanks....kraft faced insulation is the answer I was hoping for and pictures will come soon!! I want to finish the framing and i will take pictures this weekend.