Table saw recommendation

[Brian W Evans]

First off, let me apologize for bringing this topic for the millionth time - searching for "table saw" brings up way too many posts.

I'm ready to throw in the towel on my General contractor saw because the motor keeps pulling the blade out of alignment with the miter slots. I've tried PALS, prayers, and hammers - all to no avail. So, I'm willing to brave the wrath of SWMBO and tell her I need to upgrade another tool.

Two main questions:

1) 3hp or 5hp? My current 2HP seems adequate - do I really need 5HP?

2) Regardless of HP, which would you go with? I've narrowed my choices to:


Grizzly G0651
Powermatic PM2000
SawStop Cabinet Saw
General 650


Based on a variety of factors, I'd like to limit my list to these saws.

To preempt some of the more common questions:


I have 220V outlets in my shop
I have room for a larger saw
I can afford these
I cut hardwood (lots of maple and ash) up to 12/4
I might cut full sheets of ply on a TS if I had a bigger machine
Accuracy is paramount, price is also important, though less so



I am aware that the SawStop offers safety features that others don't, but to maintain something of an apples-to-apples comparison here, I'm focusing on how well these saws perform basic table saw functions.

Thanks.

[Rod Sheridan]

I doubt if there is a better quality cabinet saw in that range than the General, which now is available with a riving knife.

In addition it's made in Canada.............Regards, Rod.

[Tom Henry]

If I had the option, the room and the money for it...hands down the SawStop!

[John Thompson]

I am aware that the SawStop offers safety features that others don't, but to maintain something of an apples-to-apples comparison here, I'm focusing on how well these saws perform basic table saw functions.

Thanks.
__________________
Brian Evans

To answer your actual question you asked.. all those saws will perform the functions you mentioned. None will cut full sheets of ply safely without adding additional support tables. A slider can (you said you have room) but.. you really have to have a very large foot-print slider to fully support ply which isn't cheap by any means.

All those saws can be accurate if set up properly.. barr none. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is you state you cut a lot of 12/4 maple and ash. So do I... and the reason I upgraded from a 3 HP TS to a 5 HP TS. The majority of time the extra torque is not needed but... there are times it does matter when dealing with 3" stock.

So.. of those saws all will do what you ask with a price range that varies between $1800 and $4000 + approximately. I would consider paying a few bucks more for the 5 HP as better to have and not necessarily need than not have and need.

Good luck....

Sarge..

[Bruce Page]

Brian, that’s a well thought out “which to buy” post.

My 3hp Unisaw has never left me wanting more power but if I was ripping a lot of 12/4 maple & ash, I might opt for 5hp.

[John Ricci]

I did put my money on the General 650R with the 3hp motor and it has yet to make me wish I'd gone with the 5hp. I looked at quite a few saws before plunking down my $$$ and although the General was the most expensive of my considerations I felt it was the best value of the lot and I very much like the "Made in Canada" aspect of it:cool:. You say you have 220v in your shop but consider that the 3hp will be fine on 12ga. wiring but stepping up to 5hp would require you to re-wire with 10ga. My .02Cdn.

J.R.

[Mark Vedder]

I myself am about to purchase a new TS. All my research has led me to the SawStop. Even without the safety feature, it is an excellent saw that, in terms of saw and cut quality, holds its own against (and possibly beats out) the others you are looking at. I've corresponded with some people that own one, and they are very happy with it. Throw in the safety feature, and to me it's a hands down win. If you ever "use" the safety brake even once, the saw has paid for itself 1000 times over.

Like you though, I have the same horsepower question: 3hp vs 5hp. I wonder if the 5hp would be overkill. Or if I got the 3hp would I regret in the future not spending a few extra bucks (relatively speaking) to get the 5hp. My use will be lots 4/4 maple and oak, and a fair amount of 6/4 & 8/4 with some occasional 12/4. I even read one opinion in a safety article where the author believed 5hp was too much power to use safely without a power feeder. I'd be curious to people's opinions and recommendations on the 3hp vs 5hp question.

[Bruce Page]

Mark, can you elaborate on “I even read one opinion in a safety article where the author believed 5hp was too much power to use safely without a power feeder.”
I don’t understand how increasing horse power to a table saw decreases the safety factor. :confused:

[Ron Bontz]

If you will be using it a lot and ripping thick hardwoods then obviously the 5 hp would be a better choice. Less work for the bigger machine. I own a 6 cyl. pick up truck. Empty the gas mileage is better. Loaded down I would be better off with an 8 cyl. and the 8 cyl. would last longer. The price difference is nothing in the grander scheme of things.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, as I posted previously I reccomend the General.

I have the 3 HP version, and I have measured the current on the motor when ripping 8/4 white oak, the saw was well below the 12.5 ampere full load rating. (The 3 HP General will run on a 15A circuit due to the high efficiency/high power factor motor).

I've run mine with a feeder making flooring, and it just purrs along. There's a reason it's so popular in industrial settings.

Regards, Rod.

[Mark Vedder]

Mark, can you elaborate on “I even read one opinion in a safety article where the author believed 5hp was too much power to use safely without a power feeder.”
I don’t understand how increasing horse power to a table saw decreases the safety factor. :confused:
The comment took me a bit off guard as well. It was in the 1998 article Lowering the Odds (http://www.customwooddesign.com/loweringtheodds1.html), which in general appears to be a decent article on TS safety. The full quote is:



How much horsepower is enough? It really depends on what you are doing. If you are ripping 3” thick lumber all day long, then 5-7 HP is required. With HP in this category, a power feed is also required. There is no way that you can shove a 3” thick board past a blade with that kind of HP without taking a big chance. The odds are against. it. A power feed makes it safe and sane, but not quite as convenient.

For more general work, I find that 3 HP is plenty. This is just on the verge of being too much to handle. ...


Unfortunately the author (Howard Lewin) does not elaborate on the topic more than that. Like I said, it took me a little off guard. It is almost as if he is implying the higher power would make it hard to control the stock:confused: But that's just my interpretation in an attempt to make sense out of the comment.

[Bruce Page]

Thanks Mark. It sounds like it’s not the horse power, but what you might do with it. So, if you’re going to “shove a 3” thick board past a blade”, using a power feeder would enhance safety.
I agree with that.

BTW, welcome to SMC.

[Mark Vedder]

Hi Bruce,

Your interpretation makes sense. Still, the comments:
- "With HP in this category [5-7HP], a power feed is also required." and
- "3 HP ... is just on the verge of being too much to handle"
still make me wonder a bit.

[Scot Ferraro]

I think that you would be happy with any of these options once set up and tuned. However, for my money I would opt for the General. I own a General 350 that I just retrofitted with the riving knife and I cannot be happier with the saw. It is over-engineered and has a lot of big beefy parts and cast iron -- it will cut day in and day out and outlast me for sure. Add an overhead balde guard with dust collection (like an Excalibur) and you will have a great cutting system. I really like the 3 hp Baldor motor and I have never had it stall or bog down and it runs efficiently and is cool, even after long sawing sessions. You can order the machine with 5 hp and if you are cutting a lot of 12/4 then this might be a good option, but 3 hp has never let me down. I like the fact that the extension wings are factory installed and arrived perfectly flat to the main saw table out of the crate. I like that General uses a special process to cure its iron to ensure that it remains flat and that it does not warp. I even like the miter gauge that came with the saw (it is big and made out of cast iron too). I like it so much that I am considering ordering another one to use with special jigs. I have an Incra, but honestly I use the original stock gauge for several of my cuts -- it is really solid and it is not an after thought. When I installed the retrofit kit I had to take the table off and put it back on. I was able to get the blade parallel to the blade slot to within .000" (I can only see .001" on my gauge but the needle stayed at 0) -- and it will hold its setting.

Good luck with your decision.

Scot

[Paul Ryan]

Bruce,

I own a SS PCS but I voted for th PM2000 based on your criteria. The big one was VALUE. Right now ,out of those 4, I don't think there is a better value than a PM2000. However if you want all of those qualities and the added safty of the SS then I would go with the SS. But the sawstop is still going to run you $700-2500 more than the general or the mustard. If you will always wonder "what if" when thinking about saftey than I thing it is a no brainer. But if you are looking for a long lasting, super accurate, and best value then I think it should go Steel City, PM, General, SawStop, and Grizzly.

I bought the SS due to some pressure from my wife and knowing that I was fortunate enough to be able to afford it right now. And knowing I would kick my self forever if I didn't spend the money and some accident did happen.

[John Callahan]

Curious why the new Unisaw isn't on your list?

[John Thompson]

I will dispute what was said by the gentleman in the article about 5-7 HP requires a power feed to make it safe. Yes.. a power feed will make a saw safe but that includes 3 HP.. 5 HP.. etc. It is safer than a SS as it will prevent amputation and kick-back which the SS only gets 1 of 2.

A 5 HP saw withy power feed can most definitely make a ripping operation safe but.. I use a 5 HP every day and rip 4/4 to 12/4. There is no issue with amputation as I don't get my hand closer to the blade than 8" and the blade is shielded with plastic. So... if the gentleman was referreing to a power feeder making it safe for those that don't use shields.. do operations where the hands move dangerously close to the blade.. no feathers.. push sticks.. etc.. then he is right on with his evaluation.

As far as HP... I do see a difference in 3 HP and 5 HP. I have used 7.5 HP TS's and see a difference there also. Will the average person who cuts a piece of 12/4 every blue moon notice. Probably not. But someone that deals with it often will espeically in tough species and if the wood too moist going into the rip.

Just my opinion which is not everyone needs 5 HP.. many probably don't need three.. Just depends on what your scenario is or the fact that scenario could change in the future. Again IMO.. better to have and not need... than need and not have. Been there... done that and the reason I had to sell one good saw to get another good saw.

Sarge..

[glenn bradley]

This review (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/fwnpdf/011184046.pdf) covers 3 of your 4 if you haven't already read it. My 1-3/4HP hybrid doesn't balk at 2" hardwood so your 3HP should be plenty but, I am a fan of "more raw power" in most machines.

[Neal Clayton]

i have a 5hp PM66.

i've bound up the PM66 due to lack of power once. would i have struggled with power more than once with a 3hp? maybe. regardless of the answer to that, do i regret having to spend a bit more on the saw because it had a 5hp motor? no.

this is one of those situations where more never hurts. and since you say you have 3" stock sometimes, i'd spring for the 5hp motor.

fwiw board i bound up my PM66 on was a 10/4 board, just a really odd hard one with a semi-petrified sap pocket inside that i won't likely see another one like again...

[Tri Hoang]

I have a powermatic 2000 that was purchased a few years back. Despite all the glowing magazine reviews, I find its quality questionable. The extension wing had a 25-thous dish when I received it. Powermatic sent another one, still have a slight dish (6 thous).

The wooden extension developed a crown in the middle after less than 2 years (in New Mexico dry weather!). I called and was told to make a new one myself, their warranty does not cover it.

I just ordered a short riving knife and waited two months. They sent me a riving knife that was twisted by a good 1/16". A friend gave me a small 1/8" piece of aluminum and I cut my own riving knife in less 30 min.

Personally, I would not recommend the PM2000 or Powermatic in general.

[Philip Rodriquez]

Anytime I purchase a new machine, I typically consider the following:

Cost
Warrantee
Reputation
Availability
Safety
Other (will it make me look fat…)
Any of these cabinet saws will be a huge step up from a hybrid saw, IMHO. You will really appreciate how much easier everything is to adjust.

I’ll suggest that you download all of the owner’s manuals and form your own opinion. I’m sure that all of the TS’ will be very easy to adjust and will give you many years of enjoyment.

I personally own the industrial 3 HP SS. I think it is a very nice saw and black is very slimming… The sticker-price was a little hard to swallow… but I’ve never regretted the purchase. However, I’ll also say that I would have been completely happy with the PM2000 or the General… and even the Griz… though I’d expect to spend a few more hours setting it up :0)

As others have mentioned, a 5 HP unit may be nice if you rip 12/4 all day… I’ve never felt that the 3 HP unit ever slowed down… but I’ve only ripped 8/4 (hard maple, purple heart and bubinga) so I cannot say.

In the end, I decided to purchase the SS for two reasons:
1) I could afford one, though SHMBO had to talk me in to it
2) If I ever have an accident, I figured I’d thank myself


Lastly, any of these can be expected to last you 10, 20 or 30 years… so you should factor that in to the cost of the machine.

Unless you’re old, like Sarge :p

[Brian W Evans]

Fellow creekers,

Thanks for all the input so far. I'm not at all surprised that the SawStop is in the lead right now. I just went to my local dealer who carries, PM, SawStop, Shop Fox, Steel City, Delta, Jet, etc. and he had on the floor:

3 SawStops
1 Steel City
1 Shop Fox

He told me he sold over 60 SawStops (in rural VT) over the winter and little of anything else. He didn't even think it was worth my time to look at anything else.

I am a little surprised at the General being in second place, given that there's a PM on the list. I own two PM machines and am very happy with them and expected the PM to be in second place.

A few more items:

John Ricci (or anyone knowledgeable): Thanks for the tip on the 12ga vs 10ga wiring. I assume a 5HP motor would draw more amps, requiring the heavier gauge. If my panel had a breaker rated for enough amps for 5HP, is it reasonable to assume I have 10ga wire? If not, 5HP might be out of the running. I only very occasionally rip 10 or 12/4 stuff, anyway.

John Callahan: The new Unisaw is not on the list because I've only heard negative or mixed-review things about it. It might have been number 5 or 6 on the list, but I decided to limit it to 4, with the Griz model thrown in in hopes I'd get some rave reviews and save myself a ton of cash.

Glenn Bradley: Thanks for the link (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/fwnpdf/011184046.pdf). The review was very helpful.

SawStop Owners: I just read that the SS requires a separate cartridge for dado blades. Does this mean that I'd have to change it out every time I use my dado blade? If so, how hard/time consuming to do? I do a lot of dado cuts.

Everyone: Thanks again for the advice.

[Mark Vedder]

SawStop Owners: I just read that the SS requires a separate cartridge for dado blades. Does this mean that I'd have to change it out every time I use my dado blade? If so, how hard/time consuming to do? I do a lot of dado cuts.

While I do not own a SawStop yet, I can tell you from my research that yes you do need to switch the brake cartridge back and forth when you use dado blades versus a standard blade. You can view this features video (http://www.sawstop.com/media/WMV/Product_Features.htm) at the SS site -- or use this link (http://www.sawstop.com/media/WMV/Product_Features.wmv) to download the video (20 Meg) for a larger presentation size. It shows the cartridge replacement process after activation. It also shows the process of mounting the Dado brake which is the same. It does not look like a complicated process and looks as if it would only add 30 seconds, a minute at the most, to the blade change process. SS owners can let us know if my time estimate bears out in reality. You can also download the SS owners manual (http://www.sawstop.com/documents/ICSRev.2ManualV1.5.pdf) where the process is detailed. Then go to your dealer and try it for yourself.

I hope that helps. Good luck in your decision.

[Bob Genovesi]

I voted for the PM 2000 based on your criteria below.

"accuracy, value, longevity, overall quality"

I think most of the saws you've listed fill this but the one that I feel fits these requirements best is the PM 2000. My second choice is the General saw but the price of this saw rates poorly for value when it's up against Powermatic's PM 2000.

Don't misunderstand me, they're all great saws. My choice boiled down to the 4 requirements you listed.

[Paul Ryan]

Brian,

I does indeed take a different cartridge to cut dados but it literaly only takes seconds to change one cartidge to another. Having a throat plate that has a quick release lock lever saves more time than the extra time changing cartidges would cost you.

[Pat Germain]

I don't think you guys are giving Grizzly a fair shake. I'm wondering if people like PM and General simply because they are more expensive and have been around longer.

Every time I visit my local Woodcraft, I check out the PM2000 they have on the floor. It's a nice saw, but I'm not that impressed. The manager also told me he's had multiple problems with them. And the built-in mobility seems like it would work only on a perfectly flat surface since it lifts the saw about 1/32" with a whole lotta turns of the crank. (Of course, most users would leave the saw in place anyway and that wouldn't be an issue.)

I can't really weigh in on the General. I've never actually even seen one, let alone used one. I'm not aware of any General dealers in my area. I'm sure they are very good machines. The fact they're built in North America is nice. But they sure are pricey.

Nothing seems to generate more controversey than a SawStop. It's like the Mac of table saws. :p I've looked at them a lot and talked to multiple owners. All indications are it's a very high quality machine with unmatched safety. I've never heard an owner say he didn't like his SawStop. So, the real question is if it's worth the price. For some folks, it is. For others, it's not. It's a personal decision.

[Chris Ricker]

I have the GO651, I based my purchase on accuracy, repeatability and value.
I could not be happier in by basement hobby shop. it delivers exactly what what it said it would and I spent the rest of the budget on a GO513x2.
If you can try to get your hands on all 4 of your choices and evaluate them for your specific purpose. This is the only real way to determine what is best FOR YOU.
I would never knock a person for owning zyx machine because of the cost or country of origin or color of the sheet metal, if it works you, great! Start making some sawdust:D

[Chris Ricker]

BTW, The new uni and the saw stop were not available when I made my purchase otherwise it may have been a different game as i have not had the pleasure of handling these machines.

[Bob Genovesi]

I have the GO651, I based my purchase on accuracy, repeatability and value.
I could not be happier in by basement hobby shop. it delivers exactly what what it said it would and I spent the rest of the budget on a GO513x2.


Chris,

I based my decision having actually seen most of the saws listed in the initial post. After reading through some of the posts I took a good look, online, at the Grizzly G0651 and have to agree it is quite a saw especially for the money. From what I can gather it's about $900 cheaper than the PM 2000 and that can buy you allot of other goodies for the shop.

I was at Woodcraft and took a look at the SawStop. It was a nice saw and the safety technology is indeed impressive but in my opinion, something I'm an expert on, common sense and normal shop safety will keep you "nick" free. I'm not implying the SawStop safety is a waste of time it's just not for me. I'm 56 years old and have never been nicked once and this is due to always concentrating on what I'm doing and no distractions.

I think I'd like to try the Grizzly G0651 as it does appear to be quite a saw for the money. :)

[Chris Rosenberger]

Fellow creekers,


John Callahan: The new Unisaw is not on the list because I've only heard negative or mixed-review things about it. It might have been number 5 or 6 on the list, but I decided to limit it to 4, with the Griz model thrown in in hopes I'd get some rave reviews and save myself a ton of cash.



What negatives have you herd about the new Unisaw?
I have not read any negatives. I played with one Saturday for over an hour. The only negative I saw was the price tag. It has a lot of great features.
This is not easy for me to say because I currently have 2 Powermatic 66s in my shop.

[Larry Edgerton]

I even read one opinion in a safety article where the author believed 5hp was too much power to use safely without a power feeder. I'd be curious to people's opinions and recommendations on the 3hp vs 5hp question. [/QUOTE]

I would say whoever wrote this article has absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I currently have four tablesaws, and over the years there have been many in my shop, from a 1hp delta to my current saws ranging up to 7.5 hp.

It has been my observation that kickback in many cases starts when the blade is pinched, and really gets ahold when the blade starts to slow down and the teeth can get a better bite. When I rip, I use the saws with the most HP as I feel it is safer. Specifically I replaced a PM 66 3HP with a identical PM 66 5HP and immediately noticed a reduction in the tendency to try to kick back.

Power feed is not only a nice safety feature, but allows more work to be performed. I would recommend it on any saw.

I have come to the conclusion over the years that just because someone wrote an article is no reason to think they are an expert. It just means they wrote an opinion, and may have little to do with fact.

I bought a Vega GT back in 72 when it was "Car of the Year". I have never trusted magazines since.

My own useless opinion is that if you have the available power, you should go for the 5HP.

[Phil Phelps]

Get the one with the best fence. You'll never kick yourself for buying the 5 horse.

[Brian W Evans]

What negatives have you herd about the new Unisaw?
I have not read any negatives. I played with one Saturday for over an hour. The only negative I saw was the price tag. It has a lot of great features.
This is not easy for me to say because I currently have 2 Powermatic 66s in my shop.

Chris,

I've read various forum posts on woodnet and elsewhere that said the new Unisaw had some needless innovations and that some of the components seemed "cheap." I believe they mentioned the aluminum fence rails, drawer, the fence itself, the blade guard, and one or two other items.

From my own perspective, it's a significantly different trunnion design and I'm not really interested in spending $3K on something brand new. It may turn out to be a great saw, but I'm sure that my list contains some great saws also. The difference is that the saws on my list have a track record I can look at.

[Chris Rosenberger]

Chris,

I've read various forum posts on woodnet and elsewhere that said the new Unisaw had some needless innovations and that some of the components seemed "cheap." I believe they mentioned the aluminum fence rails, drawer, the fence itself, the blade guard, and one or two other items.

From my own perspective, it's a significantly different trunnion design and I'm not really interested in spending $3K on something brand new. It may turn out to be a great saw, but I'm sure that my list contains some great saws also. The difference is that the saws on my list have a track record I can look at.

How many of those complaints were from people that had seen the saw in person? It is hard to judge something from a picture or a story in a magazine. I think a lot of the complaints have more to do with the fact that this saw is replacing an icon than issues with the new saw.
I did not see anything on the saw that looked cheep. The drawer is well made & has sections for all of the tools & attachments. Tilting, raising & lowering the blade were smoother & easier than on any other saw I have used. New or used.
I was very impressed with the new Biesemeyer fence. I never liked the old Biesemeyer or it's copy cat fences. I never liked the feel of them or the way they locked. That is why I have a Unifence on one PM 66 & an Incra fence on the other. I was amazed in how well I liked the new fence & how easy it was to lock. I could see myself giving up the Unifence for the new Biesemeyer.
I was also very impressed with the guard. It is the first stock guard I could see myself using.

As I stated before the price is the down side to the saw.

[Neil Bosdet]

General Tools makes the Sawstop saw under contract. Best of both worlds. General quality + Sawstop safety.

[John Ricci]

General Tools makes the Sawstop saw under contract. Best of both worlds. General quality + Sawstop safety.

I had never heard that before. Where did you come by that bit of info?

J.R.

[Neil Bosdet]

I had never heard that before. Where did you come by that bit of info?

Don't remember. Wish I could as I see no one else has mentioned this. I was told this either from the Sawstop rep, General rep or tool shop salesperson. I think it was the Sawstop rep at a wood show.

[Samuel Butler]

I have a Sawstop and you do have to change the cartridge when using a dado blade. It adds a few seconds to the blade change. I was worried that cahnging the cartridge frequently could lead to inadvertent damage to the pins on the cartridge or the female side of the electrical connectionin the saw but I am impressed witht the design which uses two pins two line up the electical connection as you press the cartidge in place. No way to damage either side of the connection.

[Seth Poorman]

I doubt if there is a better quality cabinet saw in that range than the General, which now is available with a riving knife.

In addition it's made in Canada.............Regards, Rod.

What Rod said.........:)

[Seth Poorman]

General Tools makes the Sawstop saw under contract. Best of both worlds. General quality + Sawstop safety.

huuuuh ???????:confused:

[Pat Germain]

General Tools makes the Sawstop saw under contract. Best of both worlds. General quality + Sawstop safety.

SawStop machines are made in Asia. So, I doubt they're being made by General. There may be some connection between SawStop and the General International manufacturer. :confused:

[joe milana]

I compared the PM2000 side by side to the SS at my local
Woodcraft.

PM2000: The casters on the saw were stuck in the "up" position so I couldn't try that feature. I don't think they could lift the saw high enough to clear the irregularities in my concrete floor anyway. I put a machinist square on the blade at half height then proceeded to raise the blade to full height. The blade drifted to the right on lifting. I don't think this can be corrected but I'm not sure. The miter gauge is really "heavy duty" looking, and comes with a short extruded aluminum extension, but still no better than most stock miter gauges. I didn't care for the look or feel of the UHMW fence, but can't comment on the accuracy of it. The bevel machined into the edge of the cast iron top didn't line up where the wings mated with the center of the top. Just a small detail, but you know how us perfectionists can be. It's "Gold", it's "cool", and a hell of a saw compared to my old Rockwell contractors saw.

SS: Fit and finish are VERY nice. The mobility base worked great, and once lowered, the saw is rock solid, and has not moved since. The saw has an extra axis of adjustment allowing for lateral blade drift adjustment. I can't believe I have never read about this feature in the other SS threads. The miter gauge sucks. The formica covered plywood fence has a rubber T-track edgebanding on it which causes the plywood to "flair". Take it off. Shimming the fence is akward as well, and after much trial and error, you will get "depressions" in the fence where the plywood is secured with cap screws. The guard..well, I don't use one (for safety reasons), and can someone please explain how a riving knife adds one modecum of safety to a table saw? Watch the cut, feel the cut, listen to the cut, learn to interpret the kerf marks, if they are consistent errors, make small adjustments, if they are inconsistent, its the wood. Most saws will make nice cuts most of the time.

[Pat Germain]

... and can someone please explain how a riving knife adds one modecum of safety to a table saw?

That's easy. The riving knife works like a splitter. This results in smoother cuts and significantly reduces the chance of kickback. Unlike other splitters, a riving knife moves up and down, as well as tilts, with the blade. This means it's useful for angled cuts. I'm sure others can add more, but I'm a big fan of riving knives and I want one on my next TS.

[Bruce Page]

General Tools makes the Sawstop saw under contract. Best of both worlds. General quality + Sawstop safety.

Double huuuuh ???????:confused:

I think if this were true it would have slipped out long ago.

[John Ricci]

It is very possible that General might make the fence for the SS. I keep looking at the SS fence and the one on my General and they are almost identical with the exception of the shape of the locking lever and the dual scale windows on the SS version. The second window can easily be added to the General T-Fence...btw General manufactured the Biese fence before Delta bought the name so I don't even consider it to be a clone but just a name change.

J.R.

[John Thompson]

The Sawstop is made by Gee-tech in Asia according to the owner of the Gee-tech plant which I was fortunate to meet at the International WW Show in Atlanta last fall. Could the General International be made by Gee-tech also? I can't say but Gee-tech produces for Saw-stop.. Sunhill and several other U.S. marketers...

Sarge..

[Neil Bosdet]

I was told that General Canada made the Saw Stop saw. Maybe the guy that told me this was full of s''t or had his info wrong or maybe this was the case in the earlier days of Saw Stop. This was told to me about 2.5 or 3.5 years ago.

[Tom Veatch]

...1) 3hp or 5hp? My current 2HP seems adequate - do I really need 5HP? In my opinion, the extra money for 5HP over 3HP would be better spent on quality blades. If you were running a production shop with high production, power feeding, etc. perhaps my opinion might be different. Getting away from opinion to straight fact, with good, sharp blades on my 3HP cabinet saw, I've never bogged it down with any cuts I've ever made in appx. 7 years I've been running it, and have never felt a need from more power in the saw.

2) Regardless of HP, which would you go with? I've narrowed my choices to:


Grizzly G0651
Powermatic PM2000
SawStop Cabinet Saw
General 650
Based on a variety of factors, I'd like to limit my list to these saws.
Since I don't have personal first hand experience with any of those models, I'll not make any recommendations of one over the other except to say that the brands are all well known and I'd expect any one of them to meet the specifications you stated.

[Jim O'Dell]

It is very possible that General might make the fence for the SS. I keep looking at the SS fence and the one on my General and they are almost identical with the exception of the shape of the locking lever and the dual scale windows on the SS version. The second window can easily be added to the General T-Fence...btw General manufactured the Biese fence before Delta bought the name so I don't even consider it to be a clone but just a name change.

J.R.

I guess this is another HUH????
My understanding is that Biesemeyer systems were built by Biesemeyer in Arizona, even after being bought by Delta. Just in the last year and a half have they shut down and the manufacturing moved to Delta, I'm guessing in Tennessee. When I got one of the Biese fences from the Lowe's blowout, it was missing some parts. Biese in AZ is who sent them to me, the same month they were closing down.
Now did/does General build a Biese clone fence, probably under liscense from Biese/Delta? Yes, most likely so, but I'd bet all of them had the General name on them, not Biese.
Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not saying I have first hand knowledge of where every Biese fence has ever been made. But I've never heard General making them with the Biese name. Jim.

[John Ricci]

I guess this is another HUH????

Jim, I was told this story last summer by a General sales rep and he told me that General produced the fences under an agreement with Biesemeyer before the sale to Delta and was able to continue with a simple name change because at the time of the agreement there were no patents registered for the fence. I have found one reference to General here...http://stusshed.wordpress.com/2008/03/22/the-biesemeyer-fence/ and I'm looking to see if there are any more.

I found a few more references to the same Biese/General info...
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=8268 - post #5
http://toolseeker.com/WdWkMac/Tablesaw/50-185.asp?var1=50-185 - 2nd review
http://www.epinions.com/review/General_Int_l_50_185L_Contractor_Table_Saw/content_91326418564 - scroll about half way down the page for the fence info.
http://www.ridgidforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4652 - posts #8, #10
That's about all I'm going to stay up and search for tonight!

J.R.

[Kevin Groenke]

Brian, I voted SS because you indicated money wasn't a significant consideration. I that's true, buy the SS for it's added feature alone, you won't be disappointed. Changing the brake cartridge does take some getting used to. The first few times you change it, it will not be the most intuitive or effortless operation. Once you learn where the locating pins for the brake cartridge is it's a 15 sec operation. Try to remember to do it when there's no blade in the saw, it's tough to get the cartridge out with a blade in place. The 5hp isn't much more $, if you've get the necessary power, why not go for it. I agree that the claim the more power in a tablesaw can make it more dangerous is not very credible.

Were value a priority I would have gone for the Grizzly.

I'd wait AT LEAST 2 years before even considering the new Unisaw, when was the last time Delta announced/produced a new product that didn't have some issues (46-755 lathe, 17-959 drill press, 31-750 bench ROS, etc..)

I've read most everything I can find about the development of the SawStop and have attended events where Mr. Gass has told his story: this is the first heard I've heard any association with General. The Geetech association seems the most plausible explanation. As somebody mentioned, Geetech makes equipment for many companies.



The guard..well, I don't use one (for safety reasons), and can someone please explain how a riving knife adds one modecum of safety to a table saw? Watch the cut, feel the cut, listen to the cut, learn to interpret the kerf marks, if they are consistent errors, make small adjustments, ...

j milana,

Not using a guard (for safety reasons) is like not wearing a helmet (for safety reasons)...ridiculous. "I won't get into an accident if my visibility and perception aren't obstructed by a helmet." Of course there are those fortunate few who are insusceptible to mishap, hopefully you're one of them.


An effective blade guard (like SS's or an overhead) is nothing more than a physical barrier between flesh and blade. I cannot fathom a legitimate arguement for how using a guard (when appropriate) would make using a saw LESS safe (though I'll probably hear many). Obviously there are many ineffective guards out there and no guard can be used 100% of the time. An effective guard is easy to remove/move out of the way when necessary.

As to the value of a riving knife:
If there is tension your stock, a riving knife (like a splitter) will prevent the kerf from pinching onto a spinning blade thus reducing the likelihood of kickback. Since a riving knife raises and lowers with the blade it rarely needs to be removed, so it's ALWAYS behind the blade preventing pinching and guiding stock.

Since the top of a riving knife is below the top of the blade it can, unlike a splitter, be used when making non-through cuts. In a shop like ours where not all users are experienced and knowledgeable, a riving knife is a godsend. Even if a user is somewhat lazy about keeping the stock against the rip fence, the riving knife guides the stock and prevents it from getting into the back of the blade and kicking back.

A lot of polystyrene foam is cut on our saws. Since this stuff is so light and has a high coefficient of friction it tends to kickback fairly easily. Before getting saws with riving knifes we could count on frequent kickback of foam when it was being used on projects. Since we got saws with riving knifes, incidents of kickback have been all but eliminated.

All the best.
-kg

[Jim Dailey]

I bought my SawStop on a whim.... And without my wife's approval:eek:

Frankly I never thought I'd replace my Unisaw with anything other then maybe a Felder or other high-end slider.

I was always happy with the power of my 3 hp Unisaw. I literally on day one replaced the jetlock fence with a Excaliber based on a Fine Woodworking article back in the 80's. Plus I added a Excaliber overhead blade guard. I always liked the Excaliber fence but was going to replace it with a Incra once I moved into the new shop 'cause I like the Incra's repeteablity & accuracy (I use Incra positioners on my Unishaper, router table, drill press & mount them on my bands saws for rips). I never liked the Excaliber blade guard getting in my line of sight but did like the extra vacuum pickup at the blade. I also was going to add a Xactor slider to the Unisaw once I moved it into the new shop.

Now the rest of the story... A couple of weeks ago I moved the Uni into the new shop on a Thursday & the cabinet model 5 hp SawStop w/ the 52 Biesemeyer fence came on Craigs list on Saturday for $2,500.... I call on Monday morning knowing it "had to be gone..." So within 20 minutes of the call I'm heading north with the cash in hand & my 6 x 12 enclosed trailer in tow. That evening I tell the wife...:o By the following Saturday my much loved Unisaw is sold & for $1,300 net the SawStop is sitting in it's place. SWMBO is now "warming" to the idea of a safer saw... which is a big improvement from being HOT to the idea :eek::eek:

The "new" SawStop was in excellent condition, virtually new. Although I had glanced at a few reviews that it was a better saw than the Uni I frankly didn't believe this... I felt the Uni was a "standard that all cabinet saws where measured against" & the new "stuff" just had new paint & a few bells & whistles... Thus I was actually surprised when I saw how much larger the table was compared to the Uni sitting right next to the SawStop. The 5 hp was a bonus but as I said I was always happy with the 3 hp on the Uni & I have a 20"MM for re-rips. I was fortunate that I pulled 10 gauge wire when I built the shop so I only had to change the receptacle. I flip the switch & watch the saw go thru the sequence of flashing lights on the start-up... and then I push the large red switch.... "Flashing RED Lights"....:( That where of a sequence NOT in the very well written & illustrated manual... "What the hell....!!!" I re-check the cartridge for proper spacing to the blade several times... Same Dam Red Lights..... 20 minutes of re-checking & moments of doubt as to "what the hell did I buy..." Then I noticed the door was open on the side of the cabinet..... You don't think.... :o:o:o Yup... another cranial rectum inversion....;) I hate when that happens....

A few observations based on very limited shop time... The Biesemeyer may be an accurate fence but it is like pushing a concrete block across the table compared to the Excaliber that still floated on ball bearings after twenty plus years & locked solidly. The Excaliber with a light tap with the back of the hand would guild three feet across the saw, where the Biesemeyer would leave you with a sore hand. At first it thought I'd leave the Biesemeyer on for a while to try it. But even with a fancy paint job it is truly a very crude fence so I ordered & received the parts from Incra for the LS-TS fence to work with the SawStops larger table. And intend to add the Xactor slider to the Sawstop as well when I can get some shop time. One more observation is that the dust collection seems to be much better that the Unisaw.

The reality of 2009 is that all manufactures of cabinet saws are producing quality tools that will consistently produce good results... I for one just decided that if on a "given day" I had a cranial rectum inversion... I wanted the SawStop between me and a bad day.

jim

[joe milana]

As to the value of a riving knife:
If there is tension your stock, a riving knife (like a splitter) will prevent the kerf from pinching onto a spinning blade thus reducing the likelihood of kickback. Since a riving knife raises and lowers with the blade it rarely needs to be removed, so it's ALWAYS behind the blade preventing pinching and guiding stock.

Since the top of a riving knife is below the top of the blade it can be used when making non-through cuts. In a shop like ours where not all users are experienced and knowledgeable users, a riving knife is a godsend. Even if a user is somewhat lazy about keeping the stock against the rip fence, the riving knife guides the stock and prevents it from getting into the back of the blade and kicking back.

A lot of polystyrene foam is cut on our saws. Since this stuff is so light and has a high coefficient of friction it tends to kickback fairly easily. Before getting saws with riving knifes we could count on frequent kickback of pink foam when it was being used on projects. With riving knifes, incidents of kickback have been all but eliminated.

All the best.
-kg

I'm still not buyin' it regarding the riving knife. At least the ones I've seen and used are thinner than the saw kerf and flexible. They never touch the wood! If a kerf is closing up that fast, the back side of the blade is opening it back up and it will be beyond the riving knife before it comes together. That cut is gonna be smoked and maybe the blade too. Stop and go cut that piece on the bandsaw. If the kerf spreads, the board is forced away from the fence and laterally into the blade. That cut is smoked too, but the riving knife never touches the board. Maybe if these riving knives were exactly the width of the blade, and made of something besides stamped mild steel, they would be of benefit, but then precision alignment would be an issue and that adds another set of complications. If someone is "too lazy" to keep stock against the fence, maybe they shouldnt be using a table saw. No riving knife is going to "guide" the stock back up against the fence. Once the operator hears, feels, and smells (if no dust collector) a poorly guided cut, he should react instinctively and correct. I can't comment on styrene, maybe it reacts differently than wood. I respect your comments on safety, I just don't see it with a riving knife.

[jason lambert]

Nice write up Jim, and great price. I also just went through this it was time to get a real table saw for my shop. I found the sawstop basically a little better than the rest. The exta deep top was nice and the performance was great the 3hp has been more than enought and has plenty of power for a 3hp, you think it was 5hp. Anyhow I have to admit I caved mainly because it was a great saw as good if not better than the rest and the added safety features made it a no brainer. Pluse the safty features are convient like the quick change riving knife which put this saw a little above the rest in convience.

The only down side I have found is dust collection could be better but if you get the fidler guard and hook that up also it is pretty good. But some dust still gets in teh cabnet and there is only a 4" port on the back. I also went with the incra fence for accuarcy. Not good in production envirnments but for my house it is dead on.

[Larry Edgerton]

The Biesemeyer may be an accurate fence but it is like pushing a concrete block across the table compared to the Excaliber that still floated on ball bearings after twenty plus years & locked solidly. The Excaliber with a light tap with the back of the hand would guild three feet across the saw, where the Biesemeyer would leave you with a sore hand. At first it thought I'd leave the Biesemeyer on for a while to try it. But even with a fancy paint job it is truly a very crude fence so I ordered & received the parts from Incra for the LS-TS fence to work with the SawStops larger table.
jim

Jim

I have a couple of Biesmeyers. Just give the rail a light coat of Top Cote every month or so and it will slide along the rail just fine. Check to make sur the back of the fence is not running on the table. If the rail is too low and it touches it causes stiction. Put a spritz of Top cote on the two plastic glides on the outfeed side as well.

That being said, the excaliber is a very nice fence but they didn't make the long versions that are what I like. My Biesys are over 4' long with the extra on the outfeed side.

[Jim Dailey]

Jason "thanks for your comments" about the post.

Larry when I get back to the shop I'll take a look at the adjustment on the Biesemeyer. But after 20 years with the Excaliber I am spoiled. I am going to put the Incra on the saw for the accuracy & repeteablity knowing it can't be as smooth as the Excaliber.

Larry I remember in the late 70's or early 80's a bunch of us in the traders getting a call from a cabinet maker friend "bring a 12 pack... you got to see this...." We were all standing around looking at the Biesemeyer.... No more banging the fence into place by hitting it on both ends & the either using a combination square or a tape measure to make sure both ends of the fence where the same.... I chuckle when I see guys setting the fence's to a few thousand's with a dial indicator... We didn't have the time to do that for every cut :o

A trick I passed on to a woodworking magazine that got me a shinny new Festool C12 was a quick way to set a fence parrallel to the blade. Take two rare earth magnets the same thickness (check with a digital caliper... ya I know we've come a long way :cool:) with the saw unpluged & the blade fully extended above the table, place a magnet on the forward & trailing edge about an 1 1/2" above the table. Then get the longest combo blade or steel rule you have... touch the edge of the rule to the magnets & it will levitate off the table parrallel to the blade. Slide your fence over to the rule & check for alignment or make your adjustments.

jim

[Neil Bosdet]

A trick I passed on to a woodworking magazine that got me a shinny new Festool C12 was a quick way to set a fence parrallel to the blade. Take two rare earth magnets the same thickness (check with a digital caliper... ya I know we've come a long way :cool:) with the saw unpluged & the blade fully extended above the table, place a magnet on the forward & trailing edge about an 1 1/2" above the table. Then get the longest combo blade or steel rule you have... touch the edge of the rule to the magnets & it will levitate off the table parrallel to the blade. Slide your fence over to the rule & check for alignment or make your adjustments.

jim

Great suggestion.