Varathane stain process

[Brian Kent]

Can anyone direct me to a thread on Varathane staining?

I have a small birch table top - sanded to 220, applied 2 coats of de-waxed shellac, and now I'm staining with Cabernet Varathane Pro. So far I have applied one coat. After all of the coats of stain I'll finish with wipe-on poly (oil based).

Questions:
1) How long between coats of stain?

2) When I find spots that were slightly coarser and absorb more stain on the edges, can I do light 220 grit sanding to smooth and take off a bit of stain (again, only on the sides of the table) or would this require a complete re-sanding to work?

Thanks in advance

Brian

[Brian Kent]

The cabernet stain is not sinking into the birch. I think I have sanded too finely. I don't remember if I used 320, but I know I went to 220 and the wood has a nice polish on it from the sanding and de-waxed shellac filler.

Do I need to switch to a surface color? Gel stain or color-tinted poly?

Do I need to go back and re-sand to roughen up the surface?

This picture is after 3 coats.

Brian

[Howard Acheson]

I'm a little confused Brian. You mention that you have applied two coats of shellac and now are attempting to apply Varathane stain. It's been a while since I used Varathane's stain but as I recall it's a oil based pigment stain. It's intended to be applied to unfinished wood so that it can be absorbed before having the excess wiped off. By applying the shellac, you have sealed the pores of the wood and the stain will not be absorbed. When you wipe off the excess, you will be removing virtually all the stain.

What do the instructions on the label say about applying the stain? Does it say to apply to unfinished wood? The directions should be followed exactly for best results. Stain is not paint and must be applied with the excess wiped off. Drying time should be detailed on the label.

No, you should not sand a surface after applying the stain. That will reduce the color intensity of the stain and it will be immediately obvious.

[Brian Kent]

I am probably mixing instructions incorrectly.

One of the instructions is to use a wood conditioner to avoid uneven stain patches. I have many times seen the recommendation to use de-waxed shellac before staining on woods prone to blotching. Now I may have been mixing up recommendations for stains with recommendations for gel-stains.

The question about re-sanding would be about re-sanding the whole surface with 150 or 220 to allow the stain to get in, just in case I had sanded to 320. The I assume I would begin the staining process from the start.

Brian

[mike mcilroy]

If your sealer coat of de-waxed shellac wasn't sanded evenly it will hold up the stain unevenly. Howard's right the stain is going to look a lot lighter compared to raw wood.

[Prashun Patel]

I don't think you mixed up the instructions - I think you just put on the shellac too thick. As a pre-stain conditioner, you gotta thin to a 0.5 or 1# cut. Then it's a quick coat with it, then a light sanding. The purpose is really only to soak a little into the blotch prone areas.

Even if you do it right, a conditioner (shellac or otherwise) WILL impede the ability for a pigment stain (Varathane is such an animal) or dye stain to penetrate.

You have a couple options: sand everything off and restart; or use a gel stain on top of the shellac in a darker shade - effectively 'toning' the wood; sand everything off and use a gel stain without a conditioner.

[Howard Acheson]

I am probably mixing instructions incorrectly.

One of the instructions is to use a wood conditioner to avoid uneven stain patches. I have many times seen the recommendation to use de-waxed shellac before staining on woods prone to blotching. Now I may have been mixing up recommendations for stains with recommendations for gel-stains.

The question about re-sanding would be about re-sanding the whole surface with 150 or 220 to allow the stain to get in, just in case I had sanded to 320. The I assume I would begin the staining process from the start.

Brian

Brian, there's a difference between a pre-stain conditioner and using a spit coat of a film finish. Most pre-stain conditioners are merely linseed oil and a very small amount of varnish. It's intent is to be more deeply absorbed by the more absorbent wood so that when stain is applied in the next step the absorption rates is evened out. It sometimes works.

What you were attempting to do, I think, was to use a technique where a very thin coat of a film finish (any finish can be used but shellac is traditional because is dries quickly). Thin the finish highly--1/2# cut works for most. Apply, let dry and then lightly sand with 320 paper. The shellac will be absorbed more deeply into the softer wood prevent the excess absorption of stain. In my experience this is a more reliable way to control uneven absorption of stain.

Follow the directions on the stain label. If it calls for wiping off the excess, be sure to so completely. Stain is not paint and if the excess is not wiped off, the stain will not dry properly. And, any clear coat you apply over it will not dry correctly either.

At this point I don't know what to recommend about sanding. Without being able to see what you have, I would just be shooting in the dark. My safest recommendation is to remove all the finish you have on there now and start over. That's generally the best solution.

Finally, never apply any finish to your project with first making sample boards using scrap from your project. That way you will learn how to go through the process and see exactly how it will come out. No tears.

[Brian Kent]

Thank you Howard and Shawn.

I have a "Why Not?" attitude to this because this is the back-up idea to a different original table top. So last night I re-sanded 100 / 150 / 220 without any shellac except what was still deep in the pores.

It absorbed much better. I did three coats today. The scratches showed through this time; I hand-sanded instead of ROS. But it looks like it will be OK.

I also bought the gel-stain of the same color (Cabernet - a very deep purple) so that I can experiment with it if anything goes wrong.

Brian

[Brian Kent]

I am now very happy with the rich cabernet color. I put on the 1st color coat this morning. Tomorrow evening I'll start the wipe-on poly (oil based).

Question. NOW do I need a coat of de-waxed shellac or do I go right on to the wipe-on poly?

[Prashun Patel]

No, you don't need shellac if yr doing oil poly over oil stain. The stain contains a varnish binder which helps keep it in the wood. Like any varnish, though, that binder needs to cure if you don't want oil top coats to redissolve the pigment and lift it out. This is especially true if you're wiping on the poly, since you'll be rubbing the surface.

Instead (and I do this, because it speeds the finishing), you can BRUSH on the first coat of wiping poly. The brush can still lift the stain, so you should let it still dry a day at least, but it's less a risk than with wiping (in my experience).

After this dries properly, lightly sand and wipe the rest of your coats.

[Brian Kent]

Thank you Shawn. Will do.

[Prashun Patel]

Thank you Shawn. Will do.

Brian-
You'll do best to wait for Howard's or others' advice. I'm just saying how I'd do it; I don't have the breadth of experience of the real experts.

[Brian Kent]

Shawn, I just assumed you were an authority and I was a novice because you have posted 2 more times than me.:rolleyes:

[Brian Kent]

Though not perfect, I feel satisfied with the overall effect and appreciate all of your help.

Brian

[Phil Phelps]

Looks good to me.