PDA

View Full Version : Looking into purchasing a laser engraver



Stuart Williscroft
04-18-2009, 6:57 PM
Hi all,

I'm new to this forum and to the whole laser engraving scene.I fabricate small tabletop fountains(as a hobby) out of granite & glass with artwork sandblasted into both.Over the past few years I've acquired or built all of the equipment to do the job but the thing that has kept me in the stoneage,as far as being able to produce a product to sell,has been the amount of time it takes me to painstakingly get the artwork onto the resist(intertape anchor #120 stencil material 33mil thickness)and then the same amount of time to handcut design with an exacto knife.Thus my decision to buy a laser engraver.I've talked to the local epilog dealer & they want $11,000 Can. for a bare bones 25w zing laser(16x12) whereas I can buy a MotionTek 24x36 60w for $11,300 Can.Most of the archived forum threads that I've found are a couple of years old so I'm wondering if maybe chinese lasers have upped their quality since then.Is there anyone out there that has a more recent opinion to offer?I want to turn my passion into a money making venture.Thanks in advance to anyone who might have some input to help me.

David Fairfield
04-18-2009, 7:15 PM
I would not buy a Chinese laser. If you want to save money, don't cheap out on the tools. Instead, you can find a local laser engraver and sub contract your work to him or her. You can make a hell of a lot of masks for the price of a Chinese laser, and you don't have to worry about the lack of tech support if/ when it blows.

Dave

Doug Griffith
04-18-2009, 7:28 PM
I think if you are going to put out 11k on equipment and expect it to "work" for you from the get go, you'd be happier with the smaller/lesser powered Epilog than the larger/more powerful Chinese laser. I would only buy one of the "cheap ones" if I had a bunch of time to dink with it and considered it a hobby.

Cheers,
Doug

Dave Johnson29
04-18-2009, 7:35 PM
I want to turn my passion into a money making venture.Thanks in advance to anyone who might have some input to help me.


Hi Stuart,

Welcome to the group. There are a couple of people looking at selling their lasers and you may do a good deal on one of them.

Check this posting...
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1110733&postcount=29

From the reading I have done on the Chinese lasers on several groups, there is a steep learning curve and some limitations with the software. You need to do your research on that and draw your own conclusions as to whether you want the extra work load to get it running the way you want it.

There are people here using them with good success but from what I can gather, few if any have ever plugged them in and burned stuff straight out of the box. It has usually taken many days and weeks to get there.

If I were adding another laser to my workshop I would go for a Chinese one but I have a lot of computer and electronic expertise, a shop full of machinery and about 8+ years messing with CO2 lasers at the nuts and bolts level.

Stuart Williscroft
04-18-2009, 8:07 PM
I would not buy a Chinese laser. If you want to save money, don't cheap out on the tools. Instead, you can find a local laser engraver and sub contract your work to him or her. You can make a hell of a lot of masks for the price of a Chinese laser, and you don't have to worry about the lack of tech support if/ when it blows.

David
Hi David.I have considered farming it out.I made a small 5"x8"x3/4" wall mount cross out of black galaxy granite & took it to a local shop to laser cut amazing grace into resist.He wanted $16 for the 11 characters(the a's overlapped)I asked him if I were to want him to cut multiples he said he "might" be able to come down a "little".I didn't even bother to ask about a 12"x20" dragon.I'm gonna bite the bullet & buy a laser but the epilog dealer even wanted $35,000 for their demo EXT36x24 75w.I've sent out 3 inquiries with used laser dealers & only 1 has responded.Maybe because I have no company name...yet, they think I'm not a serious buyer???But thanks for your reply David.

Frank Corker
04-18-2009, 8:55 PM
Stuart, farming out the work is most certainly a good consideration, as you are well aware they cost. There are one or two engravers here who have Chinese lasers and even a few that actually like them. There is a sellers page here on the Creek but you need to be a contributer to view it. I know that Lisa Burger was selling her Epilog 35w EXT which is almost like brand new and at a very respectable price. She has been having a few private issues with her life and lasering is not her main concern at the moment so I will email her and she may pm you with further details.

Regarding your query about Chinese lasers, there is a search facility at the top of this page which will allow you to search on the subject, much has been written on the matter and most of what could be said has already been discussed. All your answers are there.

Steve Clarkson
04-18-2009, 8:57 PM
Stuart......you're either nuts.......or rich.

How many $16 masks could you buy just for the annual interest cost of an $11,000 laser?

Stuart Williscroft
04-18-2009, 9:16 PM
Thanks for you quick response Doug & Dave.

While I am mechanically inclined and I have an analytical mind,computer expertise is not something that I possess right now.I am expecting there to be a big learning curve which includes learning Coreldraw.I do work a day job that I'm not planning on leaving anytime soon so at best this will be evening and weekend work.Although I am a believer in "you get what you pay for" I'm getting the feeling that North American laser prices are over inflated.It goes against my grain to even consider a Chinese brand but 1/4 the price is awfully tempting.With the economy being the way it is I even have a tinge of guilt for considering Chinese...but hey...I don't see any Canadian lasers out there so no matter what I'm going to be buying foreign.So I'll continue to wrestle my conscience.

Stuart Williscroft
04-18-2009, 9:41 PM
Hi Steve...I'm neither.
But $16 for just laser cutting mask for something that might command $50-$75 in the market.That's not even considering cost of granite nor time to cut & pollish edges or sandblast.But really the cross was only a onesy and the $50-$75 is pure speculation.I guess I really should bring in a piece of glass with an actual design on it to get a true figure on farming costs.I do have the money to but a laser though and the way I see it that it will be the missing link for all my other equipment that has cost me 1000's of dollars that has never made me a dime.So far it has only been a very expensive hobby.That is soon to change though.

David Fairfield
04-18-2009, 10:46 PM
Hi Stuart

I'm not an economist, but something here doesn't seem well thought through. You have invested thousands in machinery, with zero return on it. And your solution is another machine that's going to cost you many more thousands. Because the cost of a $16 farm-out job is holding you back. :confused:

So I'm wondering if your margins are that slim, how many hundreds of these $50- $75 widgets you'll be locked into making and selling just to recover the additional expense of an additional machine. Not to mention the down time you'll need to invest in learning the software.

I'm also wondering why you feel a laser is going to be your magic bullet, and if its really going to be the production asset that puts you into out of the red into the black, why are you looking to get a cheaper, less reliable one?

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic or discouraging. Its just that I've seen people end up disappointed, or financially strapped because they bought a laser with unrealistic expectations. Its a lot easier to buy than sell.

Dave




Hi Steve...I'm neither.
But $16 for just laser cutting mask for something that might command $50-$75 in the market.That's not even considering cost of granite nor time to cut & pollish edges or sandblast.But really the cross was only a onesy and the $50-$75 is pure speculation.I guess I really should bring in a piece of glass with an actual design on it to get a true figure on farming costs.I do have the money to but a laser though and the way I see it that it will be the missing link for all my other equipment that has cost me 1000's of dollars that has never made me a dime.So far it has only been a very expensive hobby.That is soon to change though.

Michael Simpson Virgina
04-18-2009, 10:52 PM
There are other things to consider as well. You are going to have an added expense of your ventilation system and compressor if you are cutting.

Also the Tube is a consumable item. You are going to have to pay to get it charged/swapped out every 2-3 years.

John Noell
04-18-2009, 11:03 PM
You might consider doing what I did - buy used. I got mine from justlasers.com and have been quite pleased. It was a nearly new 45w Epilog Mini 18 for about what that new Zing would cost you. (Defintely not including shipping to Fiji with duty VAT etc.!) I see a mini 35 watt there now for less than 11K Canadian. It only has a six months warranty but that is pretty good safety.

Stuart Williscroft
04-19-2009, 2:25 AM
Hi David

Well maybe Steve was slightly correct.Maybe I am a little crazy but I guess I'm going to have to get long winded & explain myself.Originally when I started buying my stone equipment I had ideas of grandeur that I could quit my day job that I hated & make a comfortable living doing something that I loved.I quickly realized that although what I could make was beautiful the amount of time it took me to produce the fountains & do the edge polishing & with the artwork it was both impractical and unfeasible.I never even tried selling anything.Aside from what I have made for myself,I have literally given away everything that I've ever made to friends and family.I have since moved on to a new job that I like very much & that pays me very well & I enjoy going to work every day.But that doesn't mean that my stone dreams have died.This last year I spent my spare time designing & building my own polishing machine that works like a charm.The cross that I refereed to earlier was actually a gift for my brother.When he showed it to his pastor his pastor assumed that I made them as an occupation and wondered how much I was selling them for.When telling him that it was only a hobby of mine and after showing him some of the other things that I've made he commented that if I wasn't careful I would miss my calling.Very encouraging words for me to hear.There was still the problem of time to transfer & cut the design.That's when I made another cross which I took to the local shop.Maybe I am short selling myself but after seeing what is available as far as crosses go I think that I could probably only sell them for max $75.Maybe they could sell for $100.As it turns out the company that my brother is working for has been given notice that it has 3 months to prove that it is viable or the doors will close.It went into bankruptcy 9 months ago and was purchased by new owners.So to make a long story longer my thoughts are that even though I wouldn't be able to invest 100% of my time I could invest in a laser to solve the final time constraint issue.At the same time I would be able to help out my brother if and when the plant finally does close.Having said all that,I am pragmatic at heart & I realize that it doesn't matter how many thing per day that you can make it's how many thing that you can sell that matters.Marketing is as big a part if not even bigger than actually producing the items.Even though my specific application of a laser might seem rather limited,if my brother was working with me I'm sure that we could realize the full potential of the machine in the more traditional sense.As far as considering Chinese it goes back to the basic theory to buy as big a machine as you can afford.Something that I can grow into.With the Chinese model I can 1)buy it outright 2)utilize the pass through feature to do French doors or room dividers 3)maximize use of table size to do multiple pieces 4)it comes with many options that are an extra change on US models.If I buy US then the only thing that I can buy outright is a zing 16x12 25w(maybe a mini 18 35w)which wouldn't even take the 20" length of glass that I normally use not to mention the additional equipment required.Sure I could shorten my glass size but instant limitation.If I want a bigger US machine then I'd have to borrow money.I've always lived by the mantra that if I have to borrow the money then I can't afford it(aside from my house of course).The way I look at it is at worst it will only be an investment toward early semi-retirement.Just like my stone equipment,it won't go bad if sits there seldom used.But I do appreciate your input David.Thanks.

Steve Clarkson
04-19-2009, 8:02 AM
We're just trying to save you some money Stuart.

All we are suggesting is that you should START with buying the masks from someone else to see if you can even sell these things for $75........EVEN IF you lose $10 on each one you sell......you'll quickly find out if there is a market for your stuff. If you find out that the market price is only $50.......then even if you bought your own laser and made your own, you would STILL be losing money.

Don't forget......using an American laser is easy.......using a Chinese laser is a little more complicated.......but the REAL challenge is learning Corel......it's not your typical software program. Download a free copy and enter a design in their contest and see how EASY it is.

But in the end, all we're trying to do is save you money. If you decide to forge ahead and buy a laser......we'll be here to help you through it.

James Stokes
04-19-2009, 8:51 AM
For what you are wanting to do a vinyl plotter will do more fore you than a laser will. That is how all of the monument shops cut their stencil for their stone work. You can buy a plotter for 1000 dollars.

Dan Hintz
04-19-2009, 9:02 AM
Just like my stone equipment,it won't go bad if sits there seldom used.
Don't be so quick to make that assumption... if the tube is not placed in a temperature-controlled environment, you may find yourself needing a regas. If quality control on the RF board was lax that day, tin whiskers may grow and cause a short (yea to the new RoHS requirements :mad:), requiring a replacement. Etc., etc...

The point being, a laser isn't quite like other pieces of equipment. If a saw sits in a humid environment, you'll probably get away with using a little steel wool and some elbow grease to fix it, maybe swap out some brushes on the motor. Not so easy with the laser, and you may find that the laser sitting in your garage for 10 years unused require the use of Windows XP and won't run on the now-current Windows 15, requiring you to use an ancient computer with an illegal/hacked OS from yester-year. Add in technology to any piece of equipment and planned obsolesence doesn't seem so far fetched...

Scott Shepherd
04-19-2009, 9:27 AM
Welcome to the forum! I hope this all works out for you. Sounds like you've already made your decision to me. The talk of pass through doors and larger size versus the smaller model that will limit those looks like the deciding factor.

If you think $16 is expensive for anything coming off the laser, you are in for a shock. You can't talk to a customer, get the file transferred over, layout the material and graphics, send the job over, run the job, inspect it to make sure the quality is there, call the customer to tell them it's ready, create an invoice, chat for 5 minutes when the customer comes in, etc. for $16.

I'd be thanking them for doing it so cheap! The guy probably made $2 off of it at the high end. You'll have the same cost he does, more or less.

Also note that many of the Chinese lasers do not work well with Corel. They have proprietary software you have to use and some of those don't play with with Corel.

I've said for a long time now, my paycheck depends on my machine. That means when I turn it on, it has to work. Every day. If I have a machine failure, then it needs to be running the next day, or worst case, 48 hours from now. If that doesn't happen, I risk my reputation. My reputation is my livelihood. It's everything. If I don't have that, I don't have a business. I cannot wait 1 week for an email answer from someone in China (because their rep system in the USA is very weak for the most part). I cannot wait 2-6 weeks for a replacement part. If I have to shut my machine down for 4 weeks waiting for a replacement part, then I'll be out of business. My customers will not wait, they will go somewhere they don't have to wait.

Just my opinion.

David Fairfield
04-19-2009, 9:28 AM
For what you are wanting to do a vinyl plotter will do more fore you than a laser will. That is how all of the monument shops cut their stencil for their stone work. You can buy a plotter for 1000 dollars.


Good idea! These are even cheaper

http://www.cricut.com/shopping/productList.aspx?sc=1

Dave

Dave Johnson29
04-19-2009, 9:29 AM
Well maybe Steve was slightly correct.Maybe I am a little crazy but I guess I'm going to have to get long winded & explain myself.


Stuart,

We are all a little crazy and with a posting like yours, the nay-sayers are going to chime in, in their thousands. ;)

The justification behind the purchase should not be an issue as long as it doesn't place you in a precarious financial position and this sounds like it would not. If you think it is a good idea then do it.

The only issue that I see you having to deal with is between buying local built with good support or Chinese at a good price.

Now the computer thing. :) I am guessing you have Java scripting turned off and that's why there is no formatting in your replies. Being bunched up as a single text block is difficult to read, so you may want to consider turning scripting on and we can better get the gist of the grist of your Mill. :)

Bill Cunningham
04-19-2009, 10:36 AM
Stuart! Where in Canada are you located.. If your somewhere near me, You could drop off a piece of your masking material and I could cut a piece for you, and see how it works for your particular needs..

Doug Griffith
04-19-2009, 11:10 AM
Good idea! These are even cheaper

http://www.cricut.com/shopping/productList.aspx?sc=1

Dave

Cheap vinyl cutters are the same as cheap (Chinese) laser cutters. You're limited in abilities, features, and software compatibility. Plus, for cutting thicker masks, you want to have a tangential cutting head where the blade is rotated mechanically. These machines go for around $2500 the last time I looked. This is probably a better approach for Stuart to start with. A laser can always be purchased when the product becomes profitable and has outgrown the vinyl cutter. It never hurts to have a vinyl cutter around because lasers can't cut vinyl anyways. BTW, what is intertape anchor stencil material made from?

Cheers,
Doug

Allen Isakson
04-19-2009, 11:40 AM
Steve your not being fare about chinese lasers. There are a great number of us that have them. Mine is U.S. based and it is built industry standerd or better. When i look at issues brought up all the time it is universal and epilog. I love my chinese machine and it is very easy to use and does all i need it too.

Steven Wallace
04-19-2009, 11:51 AM
Stuart,

I would like to add my 2 cents worth, not sure in todays economy what it is really worth, but here goes.

I have a shop minimum so if you bring something for me to laser, it is $15. I have done deals with my customers so that once we have figured out that I can do what they want and they can order in quantities I work a deal for them based on my actual time.

Trust us, there are a lot of expenses that will kick any business in the tukas. I didn't think of the extra cost of gift boxes and what sizes are available. I also have had the opinion given to me that a particular item is going to take off like the second coming... I am still waiting. They meant well when they said it. I guess that is all I have to say.

I have a lot of dreams and don't like anyone to put them down. So, I say if you are going down this road, we will all be here to suggest how to get out of the ruts. Realize we all are moving forward on our dreams too and have all made mistakes. We are just trying to let you know some of them up front. Good Luck and I wish you success in your venture!

Scott Shepherd
04-19-2009, 12:17 PM
Steve your not being fare about chinese lasers. There are a great number of us that have them. Mine is U.S. based and it is built industry standerd or better. When i look at issues brought up all the time it is universal and epilog. I love my chinese machine and it is very easy to use and does all i need it too.

Good, glad you are happy with it. Never said that they were crap or poorly built. Just that you need to be aware that you are not comparing apples to apples when you compare a chinese machine to a USA machine. One comes with 24 hour turn around on tech support, free phone support by qualified techs for the life of the machine, get any part you want in 24 hours. One does not offer that.

That's not condemning the machine, it's simply stating they don't offer the same features, speeds, quality, and service. I think you'd be hard pressed to suggest they do.

My opinion is based not on hearsay or speculation, but my own personal experience with machines I own that are Chinese made and sold in the USA.

It might be perfectly fine for what you do, but what you do might not be what I do.

Rodne Gold
04-19-2009, 12:33 PM
Hiya , Welcome
I dont think a laser would be the key to unlocking the potential of your machines and business.
You need to have a plan and become profitable before buying it and that means some market research and marketing and a good business plan. Having the best product without advertising and marketing it is like winking at a woman in the dark , only you know what you doing.
I would farm out till your expenditure on masks is more than that of your laser and the learning curve and your time and expense incurred in utilising it ...it could become just another expensive toy in your garage.

Stuart Williscroft
04-19-2009, 1:09 PM
James,

I have considered a vinyl cutter but I don't think it would work with my application.With the rubber resist that I use and with the intricacy of my designs it would stretch and distort when being applied to the stone or glass.Mind you...I could probably fill a small warehouse with what I don't know.Maybe there are ways around this...not sure.

Stuart Williscroft
04-19-2009, 1:12 PM
Cheap vinyl cutters are the same as cheap (Chinese) laser cutters. You're limited in abilities, features, and software compatibility. Plus, for cutting thicker masks, you want to have a tangential cutting head where the blade is rotated mechanically. These machines go for around $2500 the last time I looked. This is probably a better approach for Stuart to start with. A laser can always be purchased when the product becomes profitable and has outgrown the vinyl cutter. It never hurts to have a vinyl cutter around because lasers can't cut vinyl anyways. BTW, what is intertape anchor stencil material made from?

Cheers,
Doug

The material is some sort of rubber polymer.Not sure of exact composition.

Stuart

Doug Griffith
04-19-2009, 1:22 PM
Having the best product without advertising and marketing it is like winking at a woman in the dark , only you know what you doing.

...it could become just another expensive toy in your garage.

I feel the pain on that one!!!

My problem was I winked and winked and winked and when the lights finally flicked on, I winked at a monster standing there... or new business partner to put it more nicely.

Now my toys are piled so deep I can't access them and end up farming out what I shouldn't.

Cheers,
Doug

Doug Griffith
04-19-2009, 1:26 PM
The material is some sort of rubber polymer.Not sure of exact composition.

Stuart

You need to find out if it is even laserable before moving forward or find another masking material. Look for PVC. "C" chloride being the bad stuff.

Dean Carpenter
04-24-2009, 7:11 AM
Hi Chaps,

Chinese lasers: many people (particularly it would seem in the US) are mentally blind-folded when thinking about these machines.

It doesn't matter where it's made. It matters how it's made.

Hands up who paid loads of $$$$ for an Iphone and think they have state-of-the-art technology.............guess what.....made in China!

"Chinese lasers" watch this space.

Dean

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 9:47 AM
Hi Chaps,

Chinese lasers: many people (particularly it would seem in the US) are mentally blind-folded when thinking about these machines.

It doesn't matter where it's made. It matters how it's made.

Hands up who paid loads of $$$$ for an Iphone and think they have state-of-the-art technology.............guess what.....made in China!

"Chinese lasers" watch this space.

Dean

Made in China but engineered and designed in Cupertino by and for Apple who is a stickler for quality. We all know that.

China is known for copying technology and banging out a cheaply made solution.

And the main argument about not buying a Chinese made laser is slow or poor customer service. Just read previous posts.

Cheers,
Doug in America

Dean Carpenter
04-24-2009, 10:06 AM
I hear you but have you ever bought Ikea furniture?

Here people queue-up for the stuff because they think they're getting top European design/made/delivered products. Actually, they are getting great products but many are made in China in every sense of the word including design.

Someone once gave me a great analogy: When you was a kid, you went to school. The teacher drew a square on the board and you copied. Your square was more like a donut to start with but as time went on it got better until one day, after you made a few not-so-good copies you made your own perfect square.

Then one day you go on to be top CAD (drawing) designer at Apple, et al.

See the analogy?

In terms of design (now) and some manufacturing the Chinese are at that infant stage, so it's no surprise they copy, is it? But trust me, that won't last forever.

I go there 4 to 5 times per year and can tell you that I have seen some innovations out there that would blow you away and reset the benchmark.

So why don't we see these machines? Like I said, watch this space!

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't see the analogy. Design does not equal rehashing that which you were taught. If that kid grew up to design a cube, it would make more sense to me.

I have seen currently available Chinese lasers and American made lasers. There is no comparison.

About Americans being mentally blind folded, you made that statement regarding Chinese innovations (laser?) that only you have seen. Once those innovations hit the American market we will all be able to see what you have and make decisions from there.

I prefer to invest my hard earned money into evolved products not products in their infant stage.

Cheers,
Doug

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 10:46 AM
I hear you but have you ever bought Ikea furniture?

Here people queue-up for the stuff because they think they're getting top European design/made/delivered products. Actually, they are getting great products but many are made in China in every sense of the word including design.

"Great products"? if you compare Ikea furniture to "real" furniture, you'll see a comparison very similar to Chinese vs. American made lasers. I'm probably not even being fair on that one.

Cheers,
Doug

Dean Carpenter
04-24-2009, 10:49 AM
Oops! sorry, I think I may have upset you (blindfolded comment). No harm meant. I apologise if I did. In hindight it wasn't good wording.

Maybe I should have said that many of the comments are rather patriotic?

What you have (likely) seen so far are Chinese machines made by Chinese manufacturers for Chinese customers. True to say that Chinese customers have very low technology demands from these types of machine.

There I go again: now I've upset the Chinese!!

With this type of laser technology bracket (Benchtop CO2) they currently export a handful of machines. Their domestic market for lasers of this type is bigger than the ROW put together, so naturally, they make what people want (Chinese people).

Current technolgy shows that people in the West want different to people in the East.

If you look at their YAG galvo system technology it's at a level equal in every way to that from the EU or USA (I'm talking like for like products) but much lower in price. It'll be the same for Benchtop CO2.

GCC was a half-way-house

Dean Carpenter
04-24-2009, 11:03 AM
Hi Doug,

I don't own any Ikea furniture but have you seen their company results of the last few years? So a lot of people do buy it.

It's important to realise that what you see on your market now are in general not so much copies of US machines (one or two are but most are not). They are machines built/designed to a level of expectation different to that of yours. This is reflected in the price.

What you will see soon are machines built to your level of expectation but still at a lower price. It''ll happen in a major way within 2 years at most, it's already happening in a small way now.

In the same way the current Chinese machines are limited in success over here so too are machines made here over there; get me? They think that we are crazy to put time/money into making machines look good: different priorities

Hands-up who thought that Japanese cars were bad at the start?

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 11:04 AM
Not upset at all... And there's nothing wrong with being patriotic. Be it Chinese or American or...

In a nutshell, customer service from a country on the other side of the world that speaks a different language is always going to be a problem - even if the machine quality and drivers surpass American made. They'll have to set up shop here.

Cheers,
Doug

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 11:10 AM
"So a lot of people do buy it."

K-Mart shoppers.

Doesn't make it good.

Dean Carpenter
04-24-2009, 11:30 AM
glad not have have offended: who was it that said that our common language seperates us?

For distribution I can't see the Chinese setting-up outside of China in my working lifetime. That would take a major revolution in business practice/thinking for them and it'd be very hard to work it right.

But what will happen will be a growing number of 'better' quality domestics reps.

A product alone is nothing without good support

In short it's all dollar led: supply/demand. You (the market) are demanding lower priced products.

Don't get me wrong here: there's room for everyone.

I'm off to the pub now to celebrate the early arrival of Summer in the UK.

Great to converse and everyone have a lovely weekend

David Fairfield
04-24-2009, 12:03 PM
"Great products"? if you compare Ikea furniture to "real" furniture, you'll see a comparison very similar to Chinese vs. American made lasers. I'm probably not even being fair on that one.

Cheers,
Doug


LOL

Have you ever seen Ikea furniture, after a year of heavy use? :eek:

Dave

Rob Bosworth
04-24-2009, 12:05 PM
Dean, have you ever seen or used a Chinese manufactured Nd:YAG marking system? The ones I have worked on and run, have not been what I could call quality or reliable. The owner's of the machines I have worked on, usually feel like they have been left out on a limb without a paddle or a sponge. If you have had other experiences with any YAG markers made in China, please let me know. I know they will eventually be a force in a market that depends on reliability and functionality.

I am not just waving the American Flag. I have run and worked on YAG markers made in the U.S., as well as England, Germany, Austria and lasers made in Switzerland. Components and technology are almost always of the highest quality.

John Frazee
04-24-2009, 12:09 PM
Man! Have the Chinese pissed all of you off or what?! I have read about the Chinese lasers here and have never seen them bashed so bad. Yes, I have seen them bashed but not like is happening right now in this post. I bought a Chinese laser from Bright Star and I'm pleased. I have never owned anything else to be able to compare but it does what I need it to do. I cut wood, acrylic, etc and engrave plaques, trophy plates, wine glasses, acrylics, glass, mirrors, etc. I think the only trouble engraving has been with using Cermark. I have been very happy with the owner. I have his business, home, and cell numbers and know I can call him 24/7.

How many parts are made right here in the USA inside the Epilogs and others? Maybe they are full blooded American but I doubt it.

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 12:11 PM
Oh yeah. Many times. But a year of use is rather generous.

A friend of mine who recently moved into an apartment was very proud of his new digs and showed me his new Ikea couch. Looked good. He then stood on the arm to point out his new art. He fell through the arm. I doubt my friend is over 5'2" and doesn't weigh very much. Ikea furniture is good for photo shoots, just don't use it.

Cheers,
Doug

Doug Griffith
04-24-2009, 12:18 PM
I don't consider this a Chinese bash session. I was replying to the reasoning behind Dean's "mentally blind-folded" post. Chinese just happened to be part of the equation.

I'm sure a large amount of Chinese parts are used in American made machines.

Cheers,
Doug

Mark Winlund
04-24-2009, 12:54 PM
Hiya , Welcome
I dont think a laser would be the key to unlocking the potential of your machines and business.
You need to have a plan and become profitable before buying it and that means some market research and marketing and a good business plan. Having the best product without advertising and marketing it is like winking at a woman in the dark , only you know what you doing.
I would farm out till your expenditure on masks is more than that of your laser and the learning curve and your time and expense incurred in utilising it ...it could become just another expensive toy in your garage.

Rodne is right. Engraving is a business, not a hobby. (At least for people that expect to make it pay for itself, and pay you personally as well.)

It is kind of sad to read on this forum some of the ideas people have.... buy a machine, (I'm gonna get rich!) Many have been laid off, and spend their savings on an expensive machine, thinking it is going to replace their steady job that they used to have.

Successful business is all about selling, not about machines. For really successful people in business, the machinery is almost an afterthought... What matters most is having the market and customers and being in a position to sell to them (and knowing how to do it.)

Mark

Dan Hintz
04-24-2009, 1:37 PM
I hear you but have you ever bought Ikea furniture?

Here people queue-up for the stuff because they think they're getting top European design/made/delivered products. Actually, they are getting great products but many are made in China in every sense of the word including design.
Do they really think they're getting top-quality designs, or is that your interpretation of the fact that so many line up to buy it? Big difference between the two...

People line up at Wal-Mart at 2 in the morning in 0 degree weather on Black Friday to get one of five 42" Vizio LCD TVs that are a total piece of crap... they don't do it because they think they're buying quality, they do it because they're getting it for a dirt cheap price compared to the quality units out there (Sony, Samsung, etc.) of the same size. Those people could care less where it's made, China, USA, their own backyard, so long as they're getting a good deal in relation to what's available to them. The picture quality sucks, but since they've usually never seen a quality screen, they love what they've purchased.

Chinese machines have potential, but one important component, software, is sorely lacking in both quality control and usability.

David Fairfield
04-24-2009, 3:07 PM
Can't argue with that. Buying a laser before having a business is not a chicken-or-the-egg conundrum. Its a cart before the horse story. You really do need to have a couple of pre existing business conditions to justify the expense and time involved. Namely an actual product and a actual market.

Mark has hit the nail on the head. Actually this forum is constantly hammering that nail (and the buy quality nail). But some people write off comments like his as "negative" because they want the toy and just aren't going to deny themselves.

Whatever.

Dave



...

It is kind of sad to read on this forum some of the ideas people have.... buy a machine, (I'm gonna get rich!) ...

Successful business is all about selling, not about machines. For really successful people in business, the machinery is almost an afterthought... What matters most is having the market and customers and being in a position to sell to them (and knowing how to do it.)

Mark

Dave Johnson29
04-24-2009, 4:17 PM
You really do need to have a couple of pre existing business conditions to justify the expense and time involved.


David,

Sorry cannot agree with you there. That is a conservative business approach, but it is not absolute. What is wrong with buying a toy for the sake of buying toys? I have a garage full of them, 11 tons in fact.

Some of them were bought after the first toy for a project stumbled into being a business, so I guess there are a few that fall within your condition, but mostly I just wanted to play with stuff and could afford to do so.

As I mentioned earlier in this or a similar thread, if buying the toy doesn't put you in a precarious financial position then have at it. That's what the word "Entrepreneur" was invented for. :):)

David Fairfield
04-24-2009, 4:22 PM
Thats all fine, if its a toy then its a toy. Mark is talking about a business investment, and I'm talking about people who rationalize toys as business investments. If you have to rationalize a toy as a business investment, its likely because you can't afford the toy.

Dave





David,

Sorry cannot agree with you there. That is a conservative business approach, but it is not absolute. What is wrong with buying a toy for the sake of buying toys? I have a garage full of them, 11 tons in fact.

Some of them were bought after the first toy for a project stumbled into being a business, so I guess there are a few that fall within your condition, but mostly I just wanted to play with stuff and could afford to do so.

As I mentioned earlier in this or a similar thread, if buying the toy doesn't put you in a precarious financial position then have at it. That's what the word "Entrepreneur" was invented for. :):)

Dave Johnson29
04-24-2009, 8:46 PM
I'm talking about people who rationalize toys as business investments.

Surely that's the domain of the person doing the rationalizing. The OP has stated he bought his stone equipment under a similar guise. I think he is totally aware of the risks etc.

Rodne Gold
04-25-2009, 1:49 AM
Well , if he's buying it primarily as a toy hoping to extend it to a business , I would then recommend he buys one of the cheap glass tubed chinese machines , say in the $5k range which gets you a reasonable machine , or a 2nd hand older mainstream machine and take it from there. I would balk at spending top $ for one of the latest high speed 60w+ machines if this is the intention.
If you gonna use the apartment as a holiday home , its fine to buy Ikea.....

I have a multipronged business , with lots of supporting machinery and the laser was a marvellous ADDITION.........I already had a customer base. My prime business before the laser was trophys and engraving.
I have seen many folk buy lasers , based on my use of em , thinking they can take a slice of my pie. But , most are starting fresh , most pay higher prices for their machines and are paying em off (mine are all paid for) , most dont have the programming knowledge or materials knowledge my co does and dont market their services or have additional machinery to be a "can do anything" setup. Quality and delivery are our major goals , price comes later. Most of these guys think they will get the work on price and start a price war. Never works and all it does is mess up the market in the segment they start the war in.
Even some co's with a customer base end up with expensive machinery that do nothing cos they have not done the research to find out whether a laser fits in with their customers or their customers needs.
The proliferation of cheap eastern machines makes the situation worse , now someone can more easily afford a laser and the temptation to jump on the "get rich quick" bandwagon is much higher. I forsee the laser market going much the same direction as the vinyl cutter / larger format printer-cutter market - everyone will have one.
If I were the mainstream laser mnfgrs , I would be running VERY scared, personally I feel most of the mainstream machines and the tubes they use are heavily overpriced and in the last 5 yrs there has been no real development in terms of what you get for your money. Maybe you get a little more power for the same $ , but no quantum leap stuff.
The way to compete with the chinese machines is to offer the customer a LOT more for their top $ , like 2-5x the power , bigger beds , better drivers , more innovations (like optical recognition systems , continuously variable Z axes etc ...stuff that makes the laser even MORE versatile). Relying on distribution networks and support to compete is not an option , in South Africa , we have local agents for these chinese machines , with spares , support and some quite good drivers...in fact we have better support for em than for some mainstream machines!!! It wont be any different in the USA soon.

Mark Winlund
04-25-2009, 10:27 AM
Well said, Rodne. Your experience parallels mine. I am surprised that the US mfrs have not made any advances in UV yag lasers, either in price or what they will do. The speed limits imposed by current machines using servo or stepper drive systems also have not been addressed. Galvanometer machines have distinct limits to size, but with better technology, this could be improved. After all, in a business setting, speed of production is the only thing that really matters. It is why the more successful players have multiple machines. It is probably why you have six of them!

Mark

Bill Cunningham
04-25-2009, 10:08 PM
Some Chinese stuff is really getting better. I buy some types of glassware by the skid load. For years I used KIG glass which is a fairly well known glass maker in indonesia, but quality has been dropping year by year.. This year, I just bought a skid load 'made in china' the quality is FAR higher than the KIG glass.. When I was a kid in the 50's Japan had the same reputation that China has now. Eventually, Chinese designed, and manufactured products will be top quality.. Eventually....But right now, their the Japan of the 50's

Scott Shepherd
04-26-2009, 8:44 AM
I agree with Rodney and Mark for the most part. No one's bashing Chinese made machines or saying that everything made in China lacks quality. That's what some take it as, but that's not what's been said in this post.

I have a Chinese made plotter. I have taken the covers off several times. The parts are very poorly made. The gears have burrs on them, the flanges that are spot welded are breaking loose. In fact, one of the selling points of the machine I bought was "All parts are new".

So to pretend that there is no difference in quality and support is just not accurate. On the same plotter, I called for support. I was told "Never seen that one before", and then waited a week to get an answer from the factory. You can't deny that's the service level of many of these companies.

There are some bright spots in those product lines where companies are trying to give that service, but that's the reputation they have at this point.

I don't see how comparing an iphone is anything like comparing a laser. In fact, it's exactly the point some people are missing. We are not painting Chinese made products as poor, we are saying that in many cases, in the machinery side of things, there is a complete lack of quality control. The iphone is a state of the art item, built to specifications and it's on the cutting edge of technology. I think you'd be hard pressed to compare a laser that can't even communicate via USB with an iphone. That's apples and oranges (no pun intended).

I thought the US prices had come down. I saw a 60 watt ULS, brand new going for $17,000-18,000 with some bells and whistles. Wish I had that deal before we bought our 45 watt for more than that!

Dave Johnson29
04-26-2009, 9:57 AM
I think you'd be hard pressed to compare a laser that can't even communicate via USB


Ow, ouch Scott, tread carefully there! :D:D:D It was only a few days back there was a posting that suggested NOT using the USB port on a locally made laser as the USB was unreliable. :eek::eek:

Maybe the Chinese lasers are ahead of the curve on that one. LOL

OK, that was all in jest guys, I could not resist chipping in on the irony of Scott's statement.

Scott Shepherd
04-26-2009, 10:46 AM
Ow, ouch Scott, tread carefully there! :D:D:D It was only a few days back there was a posting that suggested NOT using the USB port on a locally made laser as the USB was unreliable. :eek::eek:

Maybe the Chinese lasers are ahead of the curve on that one. LOL

OK, that was all in jest guys, I could not resist chipping in on the irony of Scott's statement.

True, and most of the time, if people call tech support, those issues are resolved. At least you have the option of plugging it in using USB (or ethernet).

Nothing says "state of the art" like a RS-232 plug ;)

Dean Carpenter
05-06-2009, 8:19 AM
Hi Chaps,

Sorry for the pause: I've been away at a show for 1 week.

I think we went off on a tangent with the Ikea thing; so back to lasers!

re Chinese software: yes, for plotters in general it sucks. That's because their requirements domestically are very sub our standard. But that doesn't mean to say that they can't do it. Most Chinese machines use software from 1 of 3 main suppliers. I've tried them all and they are rather poor.

We have software written by a specialist company in China for galvo and plotter lasers. Their galvo software is by far the best that I have ever used: it really is exceptional. Their plotter software is a work in progress but already is at a standrad to meet most peoples requirements + has bundles of stuff not found in the common print drivers used by most manufacturers.

For example, nesting, lead in/out paths, beam offsets, job time calculation (before file processing) etc.