I don't think it's perfect

[Bob Davis]

We've had an Epilog Helix 45w for about 3 weeks now. Works fine, but I'm just a little bit underwhelmed.
Firstly - the racket. This thing is loud! Small cooling fans in the back of the machine run at high RPMs to cool the tube. I'm sure they are effective, but they make a constant loud drone that is very unpleasant over a period of time. These machines are often used in an office type environment and the continual noise is out of place, and also unnecessary. Why not use larger, slower fans? This would produce more cooling with much less noise.
2/ Clearance under the lens can be an issue. The focus probe and the air-assist tube both descend far below the lens mount. Odd-shaped items can obstruct their passage either while engraving or in their transit from or to the home position. One example that I had today was with a glass plaque on a rectangular glass base. Engraving goes nearly to the bottom of the plaque, but no matter how I tried I couldn't find a way to place it so that it wouldn't obstruct either the probe or the tube. Finally gave up and used the GCC Mercury 25w which has the provision to set "Without Home" in the driver.
3/ Along with the noise in item 1 there is a degree of resonance and vibration. A glass plaque (not the same as in 2/ above) was ruined when it slowly rotated due to vibration while being engraved.
I had placed it onto a wooden block to support it and keep it flat in the top left hand corner of the table - just a matter of aligning the top and left side of the plaque to the block, and the base of the plaque hangs free. We've used this process hundreds of times on other machines without incident, but now we'll have to tape them down.

In the big picture these can reasonably be seen as only minor problems. All the same, I am surprised that there has been so little obvious improvement in laser-engraver design since 1998, the year our previous Epilog laser was produced. Not much difference in apparent speed or function, same engraving area, more complicated operation, less versatility in practical applications.
The Radius had a removable air-assist tube, no focus probe (autofocus was done by a beam across the table), less physical projection below the lens and the lens could be relocated downward in its support to give more clearance. And it was quieter and had a light inside the cabinet.
The Helix has some added features in the driver for centre-engraving and bottom to top engraving, an installed vector table, no light inside the cabinet and is physically much lighter. Not as much progress as I would expect.

[Gary Hair]

I don't want to sound too mean-spirited, but...

With your experience of having a laser already, didn't you look at and test the Helix before you bought it? All of the things you mention would surely have been noticed if you did. It seems as though you bought it sight-unseen and untested.

Gary

[Doug Griffith]

I hear you regarding the constand noise from the fans. I turn the machine off between jobs just to get peace and quiet. My theory is that smaller fans are used to keep the form factor as small as possible. This also affects the vibration you talk about. Smaller equals lighter equals less vibration dampening. As for the auto focus probe, after using it once, I removed it. I prefer to manually control the focus. The air assist tube still gets in the way though.

Cheers,
Doug

[Joe Pelonio]

I have seen a demo of the Helix, but have not used it, and it was louder than my Legend but being larger with more fans that would be expected.

Those have a built in vacuum table, didn't that hold the material in place to prevent the movement from vibration? Maybe your exhaust fan is not powerful enough?

Many if not most of us have removed the auto-focus, as it's been more trouble than it's worth.

[Dave Johnson29]

This thing is loud! Small cooling fans in the back of the machine run at high RPMs to cool the tube.


Is there a water cooling option? They are almost silent. I am currently converting my Synrad tube to water cooling as the 4 x 6" fans are also annoying moving the required 450cfm of air.

[Stephen Beckham]

Many if not most of us have removed the auto-focus, as it's been more trouble than it's worth.

I sent a suggestion to give us Z axis ability in the print driver, but wasn't to confident in their enthusiasm. I understand it's not the top of the punch list for things to add, but working with a couple items over and over (brass plating, 1/4 acrylics, 1/8 acrylics etc) that will have the same Z focus point, it would truly be nice to be able to make that an optional input. That would eliminate the per job focus on a lot of the jobs I do...:rolleyes:

[Jerry Hay]

I have a laser pro spirit and it makes some noise. I just turn up the radio louder.

[Bob Davis]

Hi Gary,
Yes, I did get a demo,and I was aware that it was louder. The real situation only becomes apparent after the mchine is actually in place and has been used for some time.
There are really only 3 mainstream suppliers of lasers, and since there is only one distributor here in Western Australia the options are few.
You might notice that I haven't said that the machine is inferior or that I regret buying it. It is not, and I don't. It is an excellent tool that has a few unnecessary rough edges, and was clearly the best choice for our use.
My point was that there has been very little practical improvement in the design, and some changes that are actually disadvantages.

[Richard Rumancik]

I sent a suggestion to give us Z axis ability in the print driver, but wasn't to confident in their enthusiasm. I understand it's not the top of the punch list for things to add, but working with a couple items over and over (brass plating, 1/4 acrylics, 1/8 acrylics etc) that will have the same Z focus point, it would truly be nice to be able to make that an optional input. That would eliminate the per job focus on a lot of the jobs I do...:rolleyes:

Stephen, I think I understand what you are saying but frankly I would not trust it for what I do. I assume you mean that you would set a reference "Z" at the beginning of the day and for the rest of the jobs it would always know where the surface of the new material was. But there is just too much variation in material for this to be accurate. Acrylic has a large tolerance on it (10% and more). I suppose if you were using a long focal length lens MAYBE it would be close enough. But I always focus on the material before a job as I don't want to be .025" off and then wonder why it didn't engrave properly.

For a CNC mill with rigid tools, flat surfaces, clamped parts etc it is a bit different. You could set the Z off the table and keep the value in memory for multiple jobs. But with a mill you are often removing the top face of the workpiece to a specific height off the table, where with a laser you usually just mark into the top face. So you need to know where that top face is.

What I would like to see is an optical/non-contact method of focus, not the mechanical focus-probe contraptions. An optical focus probe does not seem like a big stretch with the types of low-cost sensors around today. Then it would make focusing take only seconds and your problem would be greatly alleviated.

Taking it further, it could also be used to scan the sheet and tell you the deviation from flat. Or else set an average focus based on the deviation over the sheet. Lots of room for some creativity on the part of the manufacturers.

I hope that the manufacturers are listening: many users do not like/use manual and auto-focus probes. We need a better alternative . . .

[Dan Hintz]

The ULS units have an optical height setting... it shoots a beam across the table, and as long as the material is thicker than the minimum (which is around 50 mils) it will auto adjust the table height. Similar in operation to the plunger on Epilogs (i.e., open to crashed heads if the sensor fails, though not susceptible to mechanical munging). I imagine something based off of a laser distance ranger would be nice, but that would have to be on the carriage :)

[Doug Griffith]

I too would like z-axis control in the driver. Acrylic is inconsistent in thickness but not all materials are. And for cutting, that small variance doesn't make a difference. I would go one step further and control the z via color mapping and manually entered at the machine. One benefit would be making it easier to cut through thicker material (albeit not very pretty). Here's a scenario: Pass one cuts half way through. Bed raises cut depth. Pass two cuts half way through. For some materials this works.

[Martin Boekers]

I think a 'Z" axis would be great!

How I would envision it would be in conjuction with the auto focus.
That way if I want the beam to be a bit out of focus for a particular type job I would be able to have it adjusted to that in the driver.

The auto focus would be on, then after it ran it would adjust by what you set in the driver. Much more consistant that "knock it out of focus 2 clicks"


Marty

[Scott Shepherd]

I think a 'Z" axis would be great!

How I would envision it would be in conjuction with the auto focus.
That way if I want the beam to be a bit out of focus for a particular type job I would be able to have it adjusted to that in the driver.

The auto focus would be on, then after it ran it would adjust by what you set in the driver. Much more consistant that "knock it out of focus 2 clicks"


Marty

Marty, that's how the ULS works. It has a "Z Height" setting on every color in the driver. When you set the speed and power for that color, you put in that value. If you want to raster out of focus by .030", then you just add .030" to the Z for the raster color. Then you want your vector cutting to be in focus, you can set that as well. It runs the raster at one height, moves the table up and then vector cuts at another height.

No need for autofocus at all. The Z height is the focus, so no need to focus again.

It's very helpful and I wouldn't own another machine without a programmable Z-Axis.

[Stephen Beckham]

Stephen, I think I understand what you are saying but frankly I would not trust it for what I do. I assume you mean that you would set a reference "Z" at the beginning of the day and for the rest of the jobs it would always know where the surface of the new material was.. . .

Richard, not quite - the suggestion was to give me another slider bar. One for power, one for speed and one for height (z axis). Have the bar greyed out as a default, but when selected, it could let you set the height from A to Z corresponding to a make believe scale of 1 to 1000 (which could also be selectable for a scale of decimals corresponding to inch, mm, ect). So everytime I put lazer brass, I select 10 (or .020), next job, if it's 1/8" acrylic I could set it to 20 (or .125"), if it's something odd shaped, I leave it greyed and manually focus... etc.. etc... Hope that cleared it up a bit...

[Doug Griffith]

It's very helpful and I wouldn't own another machine without a programmable Z-Axis.

If I had known the ULS driver could control the z height, it may have swayed my purchasing decision away from Epilog. Not that I don't love my machine now but I didn't know any better back then.

Cheers,
Doug

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I check out my first ULS machine on Tuesday and cant wait to checkout the ability to set the Z Axis.

Scott here is a question for you. Lets say you are vector cutting and want to make a quick mark on a Piece. Could you have a color that lower power and out of focus so when it vectors you get a slightly etched line that's thicker than normal vector kerf?

Seems like that would be faster than rastering for simple ID marks.

[Richard Rumancik]

Richard, not quite - . . . when selected, it could let you set the height from A to Z . . . So everytime I put lazer brass, I select 10 (or .020), next job, if it's 1/8" acrylic I could set it to 20 (or .125")...

Hmmm - I don't think you have said it differently than what I originally envisioned. You want to tell the laser that you have .020" brass on the table, so you enter .020" in the "material thickness" box. The job starts, the table adjusts to accomodate the .020 material, and the cut/mark begins.

Question: how would the laser know where z=0.00 is, unless you "zeroed" it at power up? It can't go to z=.020 unless it knows where the origin is. Now I suppose you could have encoders and electronics that "remember" where z=0 is, just the way the laser knows where (0,0) origin is. (Program it once, and forget it.) But this would require that you reference every job off of a single flat surface. I change fixtures and lenses all the time, so my z=0 is always changing. So a zero reference stored in flash memory for the z axis would not work for me.

I have no problem with the concept of controlling the z-axis in the driver. It would be useful to be able to do that. However, what I would want is to be able to zero it on the MATERIAL surface using an optical method that is almost instantaneous. (That capability would enable a more sophisticated driver, that could be programmed to zero on the material at a specific coordinate before the job starts.)


. . .No need for autofocus at all. The Z height is the focus, so no need to focus again.

Scott, on your ULS machine, how to you set z=0? Do you set it at the start of the job? Start of the day? Or is it embedded somehow?

[Mike Mackenzie]

The systems Z axis is zeroed and saved within the software, It can be re-zeroed at any time. You can set the zero for the solid table and then put your cutting table in and calibrate that zero as well. The uls systems have sensors that know when an accessory is in the system (cutting tables, air cones, rotary attachments) This is very handy because you can calibrate them one time and then when you put them in to use the system knows that accessory is there and compensates for it.

The ULS driver can control the Z axis by color. So if I wanted to mark lets say a stair step part I can set the black color to one Z depth and then use a different color and set the Z to adjust to that focus. It does this automatically from the driver control software. We can set up to 8 different Z depths.

We have been able to do this on most of our systems it just was not advertised. One of those hidden menu things on the older models now it is the way we do everything it is far more accurate to just put the material thickness into the driver and let it go.

[Gary Hair]

The ULS driver can control the Z axis by color. So if I wanted to mark lets say a stair step part I can set the black color to one Z depth and then use a different color and set the Z to adjust to that focus. It does this automatically from the driver control software. We can set up to 8 different Z depths.

My GCC/Laserpro has the same, or similar, feature. For each of the 16 colors in the driver pallette, I can set it to auto-focus. I haven't had a need for it so I haven't really tried it to see how it works. It might be handy for some of the beveled pieces I have lasered on the rotary fixture - I guess I should really try it out...

Gary

[Scott Shepherd]

I check out my first ULS machine on Tuesday and cant wait to checkout the ability to set the Z Axis.

Scott here is a question for you. Lets say you are vector cutting and want to make a quick mark on a Piece. Could you have a color that lower power and out of focus so when it vectors you get a slightly etched line that's thicker than normal vector kerf?

Seems like that would be faster than rastering for simple ID marks.

Yes, that's exactly what it does. For every color you can have a different speed/power/pulses per inch/and Z height. When I do some thicker acrylic, I raster it in focus and then go down into the material some to vector cut it. You can also take it about 1/4" of of focus and end up with a bevel on your work. Not a 45 degree bevel, but a bevel.

[Stephen Beckham]

Richard - our discussion is probably why they haven't done anything with it - no real way of laying it out so it would please everyone.

I guess the easiest thing would be to set all the way up as 0 and all the way down as 1000 (assuming there are 1000 steps from top to bottom in focus mode). Or all the way up as 0" and all the way down as 8".

I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty positive the same way they can display the X,Y coordinates on the screen, they could display the Z height as well. That was another suggestion I sent in. The way they show X,Y coordinates when disengaged, I asked if they would consider showing the Z when in focus mode. Why? Well again - instead of using the plunger or the focus tool each time, I would jot down the common Z figures for common items. When putting something common in the machine, hit focus, go to the desired number and hit go - no measuring or waiting for autofocus.

If they did it, there would be some grumbling - but any way to do it would be a huge benefit for me. I'd get past the learning curve and use it on at least half my work since I use mostly the metal, 1/4" and 1/8" stock in half my jobs.

[David Sacks]

My understanding is that they have (or in the process) of changing the fans - so they turn off. My Mini 18 40w is on order, but I'm not sure if the new fans are on it. I do know the cover is now glass, not plexi (or whatever it was)
David

[George Brown]

I use the z-axis control a lot. It is an excellent feature. Jobs that would require refocusing can be run all at once and let the machine change the focus. I can even program it to "jump" over a raised edge, engrave the inside, then "jump" over the edge when done.

[Stephen Beckham]

I use the z-axis control a lot. It is an excellent feature. Jobs that would require refocusing can be run all at once and let the machine change the focus. I can even program it to "jump" over a raised edge, engrave the inside, then "jump" over the edge when done.

Okay, okay, okay - the ULS can do it and Epilog can't.... :eek:

Say it again so the sniffers will pick it up and tell Epilog programmers.... :rolleyes:

I agree and believe I'd love the capability in 2012 when it's added to my firmware... (Don't get me wrong - it's all in gest - I love my Epilog)...

[George Brown]

Okay, okay, okay - the ULS can do it and Epilog can't.... :eek:

Say it again so the sniffers will pick it up and tell Epilog programmers.... :rolleyes:

I agree and believe I'd love the capability in 2012 when it's added to my firmware... (Don't get me wrong - it's all in gest - I love my Epilog)...

I'm not trying to bash epilog. Their service from what I've read is excellent, seems to be better than ULS (unfortunately). The machine is very nice, with some features that ULS does not have. If they incorporated a few extra items from the ULS design, the machine would be too good to be true.

[George Brown]

I just had a Demo of the ULS VLS4.6 with 60Watt tube. I got news for your it was very loud as well when all the Tube cooling fans kicked in.

It was louder than I though it was going to be. I think the larger the wattage the more its going to take to cool it down.

It definitely is loud. But in my shop, with the air compressor to give the flow for the air assist and the fan to exhaust and filter the air, plus the laser cooling fans, I have to wear hearing protection. I got used to it, but it still is uncomfortable to wear.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I just saw the Universal VLS 4.6 in action. Very impressive but also very noisy. When all the cooling fans are running at top speed that baby is very loud. And that's not counting the Air Assist and Blower.

I think that's just the nature of an air cooled tube. The cooling on a 60 or 75 watt tube has to require much more than a 25Watt.

[Mike Mackenzie]

Michael,

I don't know if you noticed but once the system is setting Idle for a period of time the fans shut down. This is built into the tube there is a sensor that knows when the fans need to kick in and when they are not needed. This was specifically added to help with the noise. Also higher power tube have more cooling fans thus more noise.

[Dave Johnson29]

Also higher power tube have more cooling fans thus more noise.


Mike, why don't they use water cooling? I have a 50 watt glass here that has to use water and it is whisper quiet. Well almost whisper quiet, maybe a hoarse whisper. :)

I used an oil cooler from a car wrecker, a 10" fan and a 5-gallon bucket with lid and water temp has never been above 140F. In Summer my garage is almost that. :eek:

[Mike Mackenzie]

Dave,

One very simple answer MONEY. ULS's oem tubes can be either water cooled or air cooled. When most people look at the cost of the chillers they would rather live with the noise. If someone ordered a system to use a water cooled tube it can be done. (at least that what I have been told)

[Peck Sidara]

Good discussion and many valid points.

*All of the Epilog brand laser systems are air-cooled. Depending on wattage and system, some fans run at a higher rate and/or are larger because of the cooling requirements. Considering that you'll likely have the exhaust going (whether within the room or mounted on the roof) and the air-assist pump, the amount of noise the cooling fans produce is only part of overall noise level.

With that being said, our new Zing24 laser system has variable cooling fan speed for quieter operation. Fan speed and amount of noise produced is dependent on how hard you work the laser (amount laser is pulsed and heat produced).

*Auto-focus plunger and air-assist nozzle: Both of these components can be easily removed when the application calls for engraving objects that have some curvature to them. When doing so, just make sure to "uncheck" the auto-focus feature within the laser dashboard. For jobs requiring more clearance, you can remove both plunger and nozzle and use our optional 4" lens on the Mini/Helix.

*The Zing series and FiberMark laser system offers z-axis control: There's a z-axis read-out on the display, confirming position up to .001" and we offer z-axis color mapping on these two systems. So in addition to power/speed/frequency, you can raise or lower your table per color.

*In regards to the possibility of objects moving while rastering, this is a direct correlation to speed. At the speeds we're able to raster engrave, the machine will produce some vibration/resonance. You can look at this two ways, good and bad. The good is we're very fast, the bad is perhaps the machine could be more solid and not vibrate at all but in the grand scheme of things, do we need the extra weight and rigidity??? If we're able to engrave faster than the competition, produce stellar results and provide accuracy and repeatability our customers expect, weight doesn't equate better. Simple solution to this would be to use magnets applied to our stainless steel task plate to hold items down where the vacuum suction of the table doesn't apply.

All in all, I beleive we're heading in the right direction by implementing suggestions/ideas from our customers into our equipment, providing our customers with a excellent product that is competitive in price, features, options and giving our customers the most bang for their buck.

[Stephen Beckham]

All in all, I beleive we're heading in the right direction by implementing suggestions/ideas from our customers into our equipment, providing our customers with a excellent product that is competitive in price, features, options and giving our customers the most bang for their buck.

Peck - I do agree you guys are moving in the right direction and I hope my tounge in cheek comments didn't offend. But, now you've got my interest peaked in the Zing arena for my second laser... Just hope I can afford it before 2012... :D

[AL Ursich]

Great Info.....

AL:rolleyes: