What does Grizzly’s Introductory Pricing mean to you?

[Stan Wiley]

I recently purchased a Griz G0691 table saw and a Griz G0513X2 Band saw, that was a total of $2345.00 not including shipping. That’s not chump change for me, it represents a lot of saving up!. The table saw was $1350.00. Eighteen calendar days latter I open up a spring sales flyer and see the Table saw advertised for $1295.00 that’s $55 dollars less then what I just paid for it. No it is not the end of the world and the $55.00 is not a deal breaker. BUT…. When I bought the saw it was partially because they were advertising it as a new saw with “INTRODUCTORY PRICING”. So in my mind this means that if you wait until later to buy the saw, the price will be higher, not lower. So I emailed Grizzly’s Customer Service and explained that I felt the wording of Introductory Pricing was a little misleading since it alludes that the selling price will escalate, after an introductory time period. But instead the price dropped, so if I had waited I would have paid a lower price. I then asked if they would consider giving me a $55.00 refund or store credit to purchase accessories etc. Well, I got a phone call from a nice lady from Grizzly Customer service. She explained that the “Introductory Pricing” in the Grizzly ads did not infer that the price would go up after an introductory period. Hellooo what the heck else could it mean? I said to her, even K-Mart offers a 30 day price protection policy, even if it involves just their own store. She said they don’t do that and asked if there was anything else they could do for me? I said I guess not, and that was that. But then I got to thinking about it and usually I am not a boat rocker and this event would never stop me from purchasing from Grizzly (although I may do a little more comparison shopping in the future) but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to see what the top dog at Grizzly, Shiraz Balolia, felt about this whole concept of “INTRODUCTORY PRICING”. Now the only way I could think of to get through to him was by posting this note here in this forum, as I have read that he sometimes monitors it. So this is why I am posting this, I am hoping to get an explanation from Shiraz as opposed to customer service.

[Jason White]

I think you got a good deal and don't really have much to complain about.




I recently purchased a Griz G0691 table saw and a Griz G0513X2 Band saw, that was a total of $2345.00 not including shipping. That’s not chump change for me, it represents a lot of saving up!. The table saw was $1350.00. Eighteen calendar days latter I open up a spring sales flyer and see the Table saw advertised for $1295.00 that’s $55 dollars less then what I just paid for it. No it is not the end of the world and the $55.00 is not a deal breaker. BUT…. When I bought the saw it was partially because they were advertising it as a new saw with “INTRODUCTORY PRICING”. So in my mind this means that if you wait until later to buy the saw, the price will be higher, not lower. So I emailed Grizzly’s Customer Service and explained that I felt the wording of Introductory Pricing was a little misleading since it alludes that the selling price will escalate, after an introductory time period. But instead the price dropped, so if I had waited I would have paid a lower price. I then asked if they would consider giving me a $55.00 refund or store credit to purchase accessories etc. Well, I got a phone call from a nice lady from Grizzly Customer service. She explained that the “Introductory Pricing” in the Grizzly ads did not infer that the price would go up after an introductory period. Hellooo what the heck else could it mean? I said to her, even K-Mart offers a 30 day price protection policy, even if it involves just their own store. She said they don’t do that and asked if there was anything else they could do for me? I said I guess not, and that was that. But then I got to thinking about it and usually I am not a boat rocker and this event would never stop me from purchasing from Grizzly (although I may do a little more comparison shopping in the future) but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to see what the top dog at Grizzly, Shiraz Balolia, felt about this whole concept of “INTRODUCTORY PRICING”. Now the only way I could think of to get through to him was by posting this note here in this forum, as I have read that he sometimes monitors it. So this is why I am posting this, I am hoping to get an explanation from Shiraz as opposed to customer service.

[Cary Falk]

Nowhere does Grizzly state that they have a low price guarantee. I would side with Grizzly on this one. They offer such great prices they shouldn't have to. When I see introductory pricing stated in the catalog, I usually interpret it as the price will probably go up next year when the catalog goes out. I know Grizzly has sales several times through the year. If I don't want to wait for a sale I will buy something and not worry what the sale price will be. If you made the purchase you were ok with the price. If you want a price guarantee, then shop somewhere it is part of their policy(you will likely not get as much bang for your buck) and stop beating up on a great company with great CS. It's $55 on a $2350 purchase for pete's sake.

[Jim O'Dell]

I agree with both of you. Stan, that thought on the "Introductory Price" is what I thought too. It is partly why I'm saving my pennies this year for that saw. At 1350.00, it is a great price for what it offers, and so Jason is right, you and the others that bought at that price got a good deal. But it would hit me on the other side of "not fair" had that happened to me.
My guess is that the economy is hurting sales there as it is everywhere. They may have gotten a big initial shipment of them based on predictions from before the economy took it's dive, and this may be a way to even out their inventory a little.

You could also find Shiraz's personal listing here, and PM him, or email if he has that listed.

On a separate note: How about an update on the saw? I'm dying here wanting one, and keep hoping for updates that I can cut wood vicariously through. :rolleyes: I'm sitting at just shy of 38% of the money I need for the saw. Doubt I'll see it all before the sale goes off 7/15, so I'd really like to hear some stories about the saw as people get more time with it. Jim.

[Dave Lehnert]

I never ever thought "Introductory pricing" was buy now or it will go up.
It is exactly what it says. The price of a new item. Nothing more or nothing less. Did it say it was a sale price??? Did it say it will go up in price after an end date????
It is never a good feeling to purchase something and see it go on sale. But Grizzly shows a price and the customer has the whole and complete decision to purchase or not.
If you look at a sale ad for Sears, K-mart. Best Buy or the like and the sale ends on Sunday you believe that item will never, ever , go on sale for a lower price?????? Not sure where you would get that from.
Part of my day job is to keep track of retail pricing. A LOT of things you see in an ad is not a sale price at all but just a highlight of an everyday price.
I guess if K-mart offers a price match you should go and try to buy your table saw there. ;)

[Tom Majewski]

All my life I took Intro Price to mean--get it now, it will never be this low again.

From the Encyclopedia od Small Business:

"Penetration pricing, however, is not the same as introductory price dealing, in which marketers attach temporary low prices to new products when they first hit the market. "These temporary price cuts should not be confused with low penetration prices," wrote McCarthy and Perreault Jr. "The plan [with introductory price dealing] is to raise prices as soon as the introductory offer is over."

Granted, $50 is not a deal breaker, but it seems like a little liberty in advertising terms was taken.

[Jim Kountz]

My guess and this is just that a guess, is that the introductory price if more for Grizzly than the customer. Simply meaning perhaps they are testing the water on that particular product to see how sales go. Maybe then later they determined they werent moving quite as many at the introductory price point and so they decreased it a bit.
My advice? Go cut wood with your new saw and your troubles will melt away!!

[Paul Fitzgerald]

All my life I took Intro Price to mean--get it now, it will never be this low again.

From the Encyclopedia od Small Business:

"Penetration pricing, however, is not the same as introductory price dealing, in which marketers attach temporary low prices to new products when they first hit the market. "These temporary price cuts should not be confused with low penetration prices," wrote McCarthy and Perreault Jr. "The plan [with introductory price dealing] is to raise prices as soon as the introductory offer is over."

Granted, $50 is not a deal breaker, but it seems like a little liberty in advertising terms was taken.


My guess and this is just that a guess, is that the introductory price if more for Grizzly than the customer. Simply meaning perhaps they are testing the water on that particular product to see how sales go. Maybe then later they determined they werent moving quite as many at the introductory price point and so they decreased it a bit.
My advice? Go cut wood with your new saw and your troubles will melt away!!

First off. Welcome Stan!!!

My two cents... I think Tom and Jim hit the nail on the head.

I also think you got a great saw at a great price. I wish I had one. :)

And everyone else... come on fellas, take it easy on the new guy. :p

[Craig Moulton]

I think I agree that if I saw "Introductory Price" on an advert, I'd tend to assume:

1) It's not the regular everyday price that it will be selling for, otherwise why bother typing anything in that space.

2) It implies that it's lower than the regular everyday price, otherwise, you'd want to keep quiet about it.

It's just a phrase to increase sales, like the classic "I can only guarantee this price if you buy the car today." Not good, not bad, just advertising.

I've heard nothing but good things about Grizzly CS and products, and am in fact myself saving up for the same band saw. Sounds like a great saw at a great price. Price dropping after you buy it... I'm pretty sure that it's a force of nature there bud, no point in letting it bother you.

[Brian Kent]

I think at Grizzly "Introductory Pricing" usually means what you said - higher later on. But in today's economic conditions I would expect some pretty extreme fluctuations.

Last summer Grizzly had put off some price increases that were caused by $140 per barrel oil. I appreciated that. They gave fair warning about some price increases.

Now I guess that a little lower than expected prices happen because Grizzly's good and is passing on the relative savings of lower gas and shipping.

Actually much better than prices going up. Congrats on the new tools!

[Rick Fisher]

I run a retail company.. This type of thing is a real irritant. The company is in the right, but unhappy people usually tell 10 more..

I imagine that Grizzly figured the price would go up.. sales didnt skyrocket.. so they re-assessed the product and came up with a more aggressive price..

If it was a customer of mine, I would give him an in store credit, but under my breath, but I would think you where cheap..

If it was a good deal when you bought it, be happy. If Grizzly had indeed raised the price, and then sent you an invoice for the extra money.. you wouldnt be impressed.. So dont send a verbal invoice to them..

[phil harold]

“INTRODUCTORY PRICING”

Just a sales pitch
With iron and copper prices lower than they were a year ago hopefully we should see lower prices...

[Ray Phillips]

I was wondering if the Federal Truth and Lending Act would apply in internet sales. I know when I was in Retail if a customer purchased a product and if that same product went on sale within 30 days the customer could present the sales receipt and get the sale price or refund of the difference.

[John Shuk]

Lots of businesses need to be very fluid with pricing. That is Grizzly is doing. If the difference were quite a bit greater I'd think you might have something to be steamed about. It really only represents a small percentage. of the purchase price. $55 is still a good amount of money but we all get the short straw once in awhile.

[Rod Sheridan]

I received an unsolicited partial refund from a certain Canadian tool company by mail, when they lowered the price of something I purchased.

That's customer service, and I would expect that Grizzly would at least give an in house credit.

Regards, Rod.

[Scott Wigginton]

I received an unsolicited partial refund from a certain Canadian tool company by mail, when they lowered the price of something I purchased.

That's customer service, and I would expect that Grizzly would at least give an in house credit.

Regards, Rod.

But did they do it on a hovercraft (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jBE_GXeyc0)?

Orbitz FTW :D

[Carlos Alden]

Stan:

You're right. Introductory pricing means what you thought it meant, and technically it should have in this case. But in the large scheme of things it's still a good saw a at a great price.

Grizzly is a large company - and a good company - and for the most part do things incredibly well but sometimes things happen like this. This price drop probably was an unanticipated lowering in cost and they wanted to pass it along, and didn't intentionally set out to deceive the initial buyers.

I think if they offered a price guarantee that all the prices would have to go up slightly to compensate, and no one would like that. Big stores can do that because they have a monopoly on a lot of the goods they sell and, as in Walmart, the local managers have the authority to do a lot of stuff to keep customers from going elsewhere.

Carlos

[Stan Wiley]

WOW ! First of all I would like to emphasize:

I am NOT mad or upset or cheap.
I am NOT a brand new customer, for Grizzly, I bought my first tools from them back in 1997.
I do NOT hate the company and I do NOT disrespect them.
I DO appreciate their trying to hold the line on pricing when the metal prices were so chaotic in 2008.
I DO think that I got a very good price on a very good product.
I do NOT feel I am “beating up” on Grizzly just because I am asking for other member’s opinions of what the Introductory Pricing phrase, within the Griz ads, means to each of them. I am also hoping to get a clarification from Grizzly for me and anyone else who happened to be wondering about it. As one member said, “Nowhere does Grizzly state that they have a low price guarantee”. But they don’t have to state it to practice it or to make an occasional exception. You won’t know for sure until you ask, that is all I did.

Perhaps I should have asked for opinions without providing information about my own personal experience, but I wanted to explain, by example, why I was even bringing the topic up.
Also I would like to thank all the members that have responded/viewed my post, it was my first one and I never expected it to be so controversial. What really surprised me was the speed of the responses and the locations from where they came from. It was actually nationwide and beyond! This is one active, extensive group and I respect everyone’s opinion. Any future posts, from me, will be something about woodworking, as this is what is really important. Thanks, Stan.

[Peter Scoma]

Introductory pricing to me means that the listed price is what the unit is selling for as it hits the market which does not imply that it will move either up or down.

Still got some great machinery at a great price, enjoy and be safe.
PS

[Chris Konikowski]

I run a retail company.. This type of thing is a real irritant. The company is in the right, but unhappy people usually tell 10 more..

I imagine that Grizzly figured the price would go up.. sales didnt skyrocket.. so they re-assessed the product and came up with a more aggressive price..

If it was a customer of mine, I would give him an in store credit, but under my breath, but I would think you where cheap..

If it was a good deal when you bought it, be happy. If Grizzly had indeed raised the price, and then sent you an invoice for the extra money.. you wouldnt be impressed.. So dont send a verbal invoice to them..

So, let me get this straight! You are stating that advertising like this DOES IMPLY that prices will go up, but due to the economy, the customer should just leave it alone....:confused:

You can't have your cake and eat it to. This is absolutely a misleading advertisement! This is a no-brainer! For the people that are stating that this was just for Grizzly as in some sort of internal statement, then why would you post it on your flyer! You do not post internal company information on a sales flyer! That is laughable!

Now, I can definitly see how the customer is annoyed. I don't really see it as fair. Does Grizzly really want to be associated with used car sales tactics??? Is it legal, sure! Is it moral? No.

That being said, I can see how the economy could have changed the situation. I can see how the pricing scheme could have changed because of this. Does it bother me? No, not really. Business is a fluid situation and thing happen. You eithe change with the time, or you go out of business.

The one thing that I have noticed is, the best advertising EVER usually come from a kind action by a company. Say Grizzly stated that in all honesty, they intended to raise the price, but due to unforseen circumstances in market conditions, we actually had to lower the price a nominal amount. We apologize for the situation and we would like to offer you a credit towards your next purchase of $55. Now, instead of having a customer that will, rightly or wrongly, question whether to use this company again, you have someone who is going to be looking for an opportunity to purchase from you again and probably some praise to other woodworkers possibly swaying them to purchase from Grizzly. Now, you gave up $55 dollars, which I imagine cost the co about $10, gained at least one future sale from one customer and possibly more from that customer and other customers that heard the story making the company even more money. Hmm, I think I would opt for the latter of the two scenarios...;)

[Andrew Joiner]

The one thing that I have noticed is, the best advertising EVER usually come from a kind action by a company. Say Grizzly stated that in all honesty, they intended to raise the price, but due to unforseen circumstances in market conditions, we actually had to lower the price a nominal amount. We apologize for the situation and we would like to offer you a credit towards your next purchase of $55. Now, instead of having a customer that will, rightly or wrongly, question whether to use this company again, you have someone who is going to be looking for an opportunity to purchase from you again and probably some praise to other woodworkers possibly swaying them to purchase from Grizzly. Now, you gave up $55 dollars, which I imagine cost the co about $10, gained at least one future sale from one customer and possibly more from that customer and other customers that heard the story making the company even more money. Hmm, I think I would opt for the latter of the two scenarios...;)

I agree with Chris on this part.

I have read the Grizzly catalog like the bible for years. Introductory price so far has always meant the price was going to go UP after some sales of the item. Grizzly could get the product out there and prove it works. Sort "test the water" on the market. Often after good reviews here and elsewhere ,they would RAISE the price if they could.
Now things have changed. For what ever reason the price went DOWN after introductory pricing.

The message I get is wait to buy the price could drop after the introductory.

In hindsite for Grizzly would it not have been better to just drop the introductory pricing labels?


Stan I hope you get $55 credit back, that would send a good message out from Grizzly.
Keep us posted as to the outcome of this.

The cool thing about this forum is Grizzly gets to monitor what we are thinking and saying. So that alone ought to worth $55!

[Jason Beam]

Introductory Price ... let me spell it out since apparently one word is too simple:

This price is our product's introduction to the market. It is temporary and will, more than likely, change in the future. We're introducing the product at this price to see how the market takes it. It's a temporary price and you can probably count on it changing.

----

There. Clear as can be, to me. It tells me that the price will probably change. Where it will change is a prediction on your part, not an implication on the seller's part. They're simply telling you this price may not last. That's it.

Now just because history probably leads you to believe the price will likely go up rather than down doesn't mean the seller is misleading you. It'd be nice if marketing didn't need to exist, but it's a fact of life. When all thoseads come out that say "Act now" or "Hurry!!!" or "Don't wait..." isn't that the same thing? They're implying that the price will change and banking on you assuming it'll go up.

It's sales 101. Create a sense of urgency in the purchaser. It's a technique that's been around for ages. Do I like that it works? No. But they're just using what works. As a customer, I decide what works. If I fall for a pitch, then I fall for a pitch.

This whole thread sounds to me like you're wishing you hadn't fallen for the pitch after the fact.

[John Thompson]

Introductory Pricing to me also means the price when the machine is Introduced to the market.. it could go up or down depending on demand.. change in cost of manufacturing.. shipping.. and a host of other variables that have to be monitored daily to stay afloat in the long haul.

You don't have to purchase at an introductory price or purchase period for that matter but.. if you do you have personally deemed it is fair to you and the manufacturer IMO. The fact it could go up or down is just a gamble you take as just as the stock market.. prices rise and fall depending on circumstances and there are no gaurantee's outside the warranty.

Sarge..

[Rick Fisher]

The reason they would probably issue the $55.00 credit, when pushed .. is because people dont understand it.

Try selling contract lumber, where the mill price changes daily.. The proffesional contractor understands, after complaining .. the home owner, one timer doesnt get it..

The price of lumber falls a month after the house is done and the homeowner builder wants a credit..

I rather doubt that Grizzly planned this all out.. some master scheme to make $55 off a bunch of saws..

How do we know that the cost to Grizzly didnt fall on the second batch? Like contract lumber ???

I bought Baltic Birch 5x5 yesterday, cheaper than I have paid in 15 years.. (wholesale). The stock on the shelves cost more than the stock on the way.. so I havent reduced the retail price.. is that unfair? If I do reduce it, did I cheat those who bought before the reduction?

The only way Grizzly is wrong is if they did it on purpose.. and I cannot believe that... Its $55 .. that's it.. $55.00

At what point does it become unreasonable to complain? $45? .. $25? .. $5 .. That depends on the customer, what they consider "expensive" and what they consider "CHEAP".

[Peter Scoma]

At what point does it become unreasonable to complain? $45? .. $25? .. $5 .. That depends on the customer, what they consider "expensive" and what they consider "CHEAP".

+1 There was a guy on woodnet making a stink over being charged .58 cents for sandpaper.

Some people.

PS

[Chris Konikowski]

The reason they would probably issue the $55.00 credit, when pushed .. is because people dont understand it.

Try selling contract lumber, where the mill price changes daily.. The proffesional contractor understands, after complaining .. the home owner, one timer doesnt get it..

The price of lumber falls a month after the house is done and the homeowner builder wants a credit..

I rather doubt that Grizzly planned this all out.. some master scheme to make $55 off a bunch of saws..

How do we know that the cost to Grizzly didnt fall on the second batch? Like contract lumber ???

I bought Baltic Birch 5x5 yesterday, cheaper than I have paid in 15 years.. (wholesale). The stock on the shelves cost more than the stock on the way.. so I havent reduced the retail price.. is that unfair? If I do reduce it, did I cheat those who bought before the reduction?

The only way Grizzly is wrong is if they did it on purpose.. and I cannot believe that... Its $55 .. that's it.. $55.00

At what point does it become unreasonable to complain? $45? .. $25? .. $5 .. That depends on the customer, what they consider "expensive" and what they consider "CHEAP".

Lumber is traded on the open market and market makers set the price. That is not even close to this situation.

If Microsoft came out when introducing cashback and said "cashback 25% introductory offer!" is it fair to assume that this would lead you to believe that it would not be 30% the next week?

This is misleading! If you deny this, you are just kidding yourself. That statement was mde for one reason and one reason only. to convince the customer that if he waited, it would be more expensive later. This just does not seem like and arguable point....

Again, it is $55. pretty nominal amount and I doubt that I would make a stink about it even being as broke as I am. That is not the question though. The question was do you think it is misleading. Grizzly offering a credit was just a way to create a win win situation for grizzly and the customer. Instead, there is negative press about them out here now. They saved $55, but what did they lose in order to save that.

Don't get me wrong, Grizzly owes this guy NOTHING. I just look at things different...turn a not so good into more sales and happy customers!

[Chris Konikowski]

Lots of businesses need to be very fluid with pricing. That is Grizzly is doing. If the difference were quite a bit greater I'd think you might have something to be steamed about. It really only represents a small percentage. of the purchase price. $55 is still a good amount of money but we all get the short straw once in awhile.

I used to argue that all the time. People look at a multi thousand dollar purchase and decide, well, it's only $50..such a small percentage.... to which I always ask the person if I can have $50... to which they always respond, hell no! That is a lot of money!!!

For some reason, when money is only a small percentage of a purchase, people disregard it. I don't care if I spent $50,000 on a new car, If I can get the same car for $49,950 and everything else is equal, I am going to KEEP $50 IN MY WALLET!

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I just look at things different...turn a not so good into more sales and happy customers!

Chris, there are many people that will raise a stink just to try to get a little better deal than the last guy. I actually think that some look at this as some sort of a sick game. I used to have a couple restaurants, and if you give an inch on your pricing, you will be killed in the stampede to get in line demanding a foot.

It's easy to say what you did, but how do you then keep that from retroactively appliying to all previous sales? Where do you draw the line? How much could that cost your company? What if you get somebody on one of these forums saying "hey, that guy got a refund, but 3 years ago I had the same thing happen and Grizz won't give me money back!" Your intended purchase of good press could inadvertantly cause far more bad press.

Ricks lumber analogy does apply IMHO. Grizz is at the mercy of world markets, steel and currency obviously, so they should be expected by their consumers to have to adjust their prices accordingly.

[Mike Goetzke]

I think it is misleading too.

Plus it would only be a 2.3% refund of the price you paid for the tools to make you completely happy:cool:.

Mike

[Chris Konikowski]

Ricks lumber analogy does apply IMHO. Grizz is at the mercy of world markets, steel and currency obviously, so they should be expected by their consumers to have to adjust their prices accordingly.

Table saws are are not publicly traded on the open market. The market does not set the price.
Lumber companies, on the other hand, do not set their own prices. They are at the mercy of the market to make a price.

How is the the same....or even similar????

[Tom Leasure]

I recently purchased a Griz G0691 table saw and a Griz G0513X2 Band saw, that was a total of $2345.00 not including shipping. That’s not chump change for me, it represents a lot of saving up!. The table saw was $1350.00. Eighteen calendar days latter I open up a spring sales flyer and see the Table saw advertised for $1295.00 that’s $55 dollars less then what I just paid for it. No it is not the end of the world and the $55.00 is not a deal breaker. BUT…. When I bought the saw it was partially because they were advertising it as a new saw with “INTRODUCTORY PRICING”. So in my mind this means that if you wait until later to buy the saw, the price will be higher, not lower. So I emailed Grizzly’s Customer Service and explained that I felt the wording of Introductory Pricing was a little misleading since it alludes that the selling price will escalate, after an introductory time period. But instead the price dropped, so if I had waited I would have paid a lower price. I then asked if they would consider giving me a $55.00 refund or store credit to purchase accessories etc. Well, I got a phone call from a nice lady from Grizzly Customer service. She explained that the “Introductory Pricing” in the Grizzly ads did not infer that the price would go up after an introductory period. Hellooo what the heck else could it mean? I said to her, even K-Mart offers a 30 day price protection policy, even if it involves just their own store. She said they don’t do that and asked if there was anything else they could do for me? I said I guess not, and that was that. But then I got to thinking about it and usually I am not a boat rocker and this event would never stop me from purchasing from Grizzly (although I may do a little more comparison shopping in the future) but the more I thought about it, the more I wanted to see what the top dog at Grizzly, Shiraz Balolia, felt about this whole concept of “INTRODUCTORY PRICING”. Now the only way I could think of to get through to him was by posting this note here in this forum, as I have read that he sometimes monitors it. So this is why I am posting this, I am hoping to get an explanation from Shiraz as opposed to customer service.


Look at it this way - 50 bucks or sales tax ?? You made out with some great tools - bite the bullet on the 50 bucks

[Bruce Page]

I didn’t read this whole thread but I don’t think it matters squat if a particular machine is a great deal at whatever price, that wasn’t the OP’s question.
My personal interpretation of “INTRODUCTORY PRICING” is the same as Stan’s in that the price is lowered below the manufactures expected price point to introduce a new product, and the price would rise from there.

I guess I’d be a little miffed too. $55 is $55.

[Jeff Willard]

I rather doubt that Grizzly planned this all out.. some master scheme to make $55 off a bunch of saws..

How do we know that the cost to Grizzly didnt fall on the second batch? Like contract lumber ???


'Zackly. Last summer I was paying $4.00/gal. for gas. Right now I'm paying half of that. I wouldn't mind a refund on all of the gas I bought for $4.00:D, but I don't, nor should any other thinking person, expect one. I think that's what we're seeing at work here.
On the other side of that coin, I understand Stan being initially miffed at this. Some people can afford to use a $50.00 bill for kleenex-I'm not one of those. That money could go a long way toward some other tool purchases that I would like to make.

[Jeff Willard]

Table saws are are not publicly traded on the open market.


The materials used to make the saws are.

[Blake Barr]

I was wondering if the Federal Truth and Lending Act would apply in internet sales. I know when I was in Retail if a customer purchased a product and if that same product went on sale within 30 days the customer could present the sales receipt and get the sale price or refund of the difference.

What would truth in lending have to do with pricing of retail goods?

[Blake Barr]

You know there are PLENTY of products who's initial prices start off high and decline over time and their initial pricing would indeed be "introductory" pricing. Cars, clothes, electronics etc will all be more expensive on day one of introduction than a few years, months or even weeks down the road...

In all reality this $55 is nothing more to the customer than $55 and an experience. If this leads the OP to look elsewhere and others who read this thread then it's Grizzly's loss and maybe they should think about price matching themselves....

However on these types of products which are durable goods it makes 0 business sense to price match yourself. This makes sense with products that are more o a commodity or where prices are expected to fall, like with electronics. Grizzly giving the OP $55 back makes about as much as Ford price matching themselves on cars.

In the end I don't feel that Grizzly offering a 30 day pricing policy makes any sense and I don't think they need it to be competitive. They are already one of the value leaders in heavy tools afaik....

[Chris Konikowski]

The materials used to make the saws are.

Every product in the world has raw materials that go into it that are traded on the open market. That does not mean the end product is. Example. Fein makes its multi tool and charges $400 for it. HF makes pretty much the same thing for $35. They both have materials in it that were priced on the open market, but the end product has very different prices. End products are priced by the company who is selling them, no one else....

My guess is that the steel in a table saw represents maybe 10% of the cost of the saw. This is not a raw materials price drop...

[Chris Konikowski]

You know there are PLENTY of products who's initial prices start off high and decline over time and their initial pricing would indeed be "introductory" pricing. Cars, clothes, electronics etc will all be more expensive on day one of introduction than a few years, months or even weeks down the road...

In all reality this $55 is nothing more to the customer than $55 and an experience. If this leads the OP to look elsewhere and others who read this thread then it's Grizzly's loss and maybe they should think about price matching themselves....

However on these types of products which are durable goods it makes 0 business sense to price match yourself. This makes sense with products that are more o a commodity or where prices are expected to fall, like with electronics. Grizzly giving the OP $55 back makes about as much as Ford price matching themselves on cars.

In the end I don't feel that Grizzly offering a 30 day pricing policy makes any sense and I don't think they need it to be competitive. They are already one of the value leaders in heavy tools afaik....

Hmm, so you are saying the price of a Corvette in 1953 is cheaper than one today??!?! How about just 30 years ago? 20 years? 10 years? 5 years? last year???? I don't think so...

[Blake Barr]

Hmm, so you are saying the price of a Corvette in 1953 is cheaper than one today??!?! How about just 30 years ago? 20 years? 10 years? 5 years? last year???? I don't think so...

Cars will get cheaper (or sales volumes drop) once the "newness" wears off... This is why manufacturers refresh models every few years.... if GM was still selling an unchanged 1953 corvette right now and had been selling it unchanged since 1953 they would be DIRT cheap or they'd only sell a couple a year.... Also on an inflation adjusted price the 1953 corvette probably is cheaper than today's corvette but for entirely different reasons than what we are discussing here.

Take that fugly thing called the Prius for instance. When it first came out there where waiting lists to buy it for thousands over MSRP, now you can probably get it at a discount to MSRP.

I'm just saying there are plenty of products that when introduced would intentially be more expensive on introduction than later on.... however I doubt this was Grizzly's intent. My guess is that the "introductory" price WAS a sales price but they didn't move the volume they wanted so they lowered the price some more....

[timothy harwell]

I believe Grizzly customer service is great when it comes to responding to inquiries, but its been my experience that trying to get them to do anything with a discount or price adjustment is out of the question. This is one area I feel Grizzly has a lot of room for improvement. If I were in your situation I would be ticked. Sure its only $55, but at the same time, its only $55 to Grizzly as well.

Lowes gave me $83 back on a $350 christmas tree that went on sale 1 week after I bought it last year. No questions asked, show my receipt and $83 cash refund. If I need something from Lowes, I can buy it right when I need it with confidence that Ill get it at their lowest price if it should go on sale in the near future. However, before I buy something from Grizzly, I always shop around first and, if its a substantial purchase, I definitely wait for a sale. And, obviously, Grizzly makes most their profit from their rediculous shipping prices, which also annoys me.

Call it cheap if you want to, but a lot of people are broke or near it because they dont watch how they spend their money. Im also a big believer in customer service, and I think, overall, Grizzly customer service lacks. At the same time, however, its very difficult to beat their overall pricing for the product they sell. Ill continue to buy from Grizzly, but Ill always be patient and look elsewhere first.

[Stephen Edwards]

Interesting thread. I think that Stan's question is a fair question. I'm certainly not going to give him a hard time for asking the question.

Obviously, there are differing opinions about the definition of "introductory pricing". As I've thought about this to myself, my first reaction is that it implies that the price will soon go up. Upon further thought I realize that in reality, there's no rule that says that's the case. The price could change in either direction depending on volume of sales.

If I were in Stan's shoes I'd probably be a little bit miffed, too. On the other hand, that's the free market at work. Yes, he has a right to be miffed. At the same time Grizzly or any other manufacturer has the right to change their prices without notice unless they offer a lowest price guarantee. That's life and that's capitalism.

Enjoy your new machines Stan. I'll bet that in 3-6 months you won't even be giving this a second thought anymore. Again, you asked a fair question and I'm not going to slam you for asking it. I'm also not going to slam Grizzly for lowering the price of the machine in question.

Best Regards,

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Every product in the world has raw materials that go into it that are traded on the open market. That does not mean the end product is. Example. Fein makes its multi tool and charges $400 for it. HF makes pretty much the same thing for $35. They both have materials in it that were priced on the open market, but the end product has very different prices. End products are priced by the company who is selling them, no one else....

My guess is that the steel in a table saw represents maybe 10% of the cost of the saw. This is not a raw materials price drop...

Chris, Jeff answered your original question back to me quite well, so I'll take a shot at this one.

You can't possibly logically assume that a Fein multitool is the same cost as a Harbor Freight model to produce, right? The reason that something in made in Germany costs more is quite complex, but basically it's the cost of labor. The cost of labor is a derivative of the cost of living, which is a derivative of the many things, a big pile of which are influenced by commodity prices. Think food, fuel, building supplies, capital, even space. All of that stuff is more expensive in Germany, partially because it is probably a better place to live than China. This causes more demand for these nessecary commodities, most of which are not produced in country, which causes higher costs to the consumer, higher labor costs, and higher priced goods. Germany produces a premium product to support this economy, and they have found a niche.

Try something right quick, look around your computer and see what is laying there. Any paper? Thats a commodity. Ink? Commodity, if it's made from soy, which most is now I think, and petroleum if not. Plastic anything? Petroleum commodity at least, and maybe also a corn commodity if it's the right type of plastic. Metal desk maybe? Steel commodities. How about the gold, copper or silver components in your computer?

Ok, now out of that list, just for fun, check this out. I grow corn. To grow corn I need nitrogen, which is a traded commodity, as are phosphorus and sulphur. I'll also use fuel and oil for my machines, obviously a commodity. The steel for the machinery is a commodity. The water is even a locally traded commodity. In fact, the only input in growing corn that is not a commodity, is my labor, which as discussed before, is priced by commodities.

Bottom line, any raw material out there is traded commodity, somewhere. The values, and prices of these core products regulate all freemarket economies.

Thats a very longwinded way to say that there are a lot of factors that Grizzely does not directly control that go into the cost of producing equipment. In fact, the more cheaply that a piece of equipment is produced, the more vulnerable that Griz is to fluctuations in commodity prices, as the price of those commodities are a bigger portion of the cost of production.

I don't know this for a fact, but I would imagine that Griz makes far less margin on one of their machines than does Felder. It's easy to say "It's only $55, give it back!", but what if that is 1/2 of the margin? What if, oh I don't know, the economy blows up, and your accounts recievable strech out by a month? What if that causes a problem with liquidity? What if that problem hurts your business credit rating or stock value? Then you will cease to have the option to buy Grizzley tools.

No one gets rich selling one tablesaw, and it sure won't support a huge business like Griz. Sell thousands of them though and now exactly what you need to make per machine, and you are onto something. $55 might not be much, but cumulatively, it may be everything.

[Matt Stiegler]

I don't claim to know what introductory pricing means, but I know I'm more likely to become a loyal customer of a company that goes the extra mile to see it the customer's way in a situation like this.

From Grizzly's perspective, I have a hard time believing its good business for them to keep the $55 and put a bad taste in the mouth of a loyal customer like Stan, not to mention everyone he mentions it to. And I suspect a cheerfully refunded $55 in this instance would have been a very sound investment for them.

To me, what introductory pricing "really" means isn't the point.

[Robert Payne]

I've bought many tools from Grizzly, too, but I would have approached this a little differently. I would have asked them for their consideration of some price relief since your purchase was within 30 days of the price drop (usually called price protection). I recently bought an several items at Dick's Sporting Goods and the price dropped two weeks later. With receipt in hand, I went back to the store and they refunds me the $30 + tax on the difference without any hassle.

[timothy harwell]

Everything you say is correct Steve. But consider the difference a $55 refund, or even a $10 gift certificate or credit could make. Instead of a 4 page thread in a woodworking forum that is filled with complaints and perceived shortcomings about your company, maybe you get a 2 page thread praising the company and their commitment to their customers. Maybe you didnt make any money on this one saw or even one tenth (arbitrary no. of people who might request a refund) of the saws you sold at the introductory price, or maybe you even took a small loss, but you did business, and you did good business. Potential customers are left with a good feeling about your company. Maybe you lost $55, but you may realize a long term exponential gain. Or maybe you take the stance that your prices speak for themselves and the $55 extra you made costs you so much more long term.

[Mikail Khan]

Introductory pricing suggests to me that the price will increase. However, the current price is for a limited time only for a sale. The price may increase to over the launch price in next year's catalogue.

Amazon used to have a 30 day price guarantee but it was discontinued a few months ago.

Stan, if it makes you feel any better Laguna (http://www.lagunatools.com/tablesaw.platinumlt.aspx) sells an identical saw for $1695 before shipping. ($345 more than you paid).

I am also considering buying a 691 and I am looking forward to some pics and your thoughts on this saw in a new thread.

MK

[Verne Skagerberg]

Stan,

I have to chime in and ask, along with Jim, how about an update on the machines. You just bought the same pair I'm going to order as soon as we've poured the slab for my new shop in a couple of weeks, so I'd like to hear your opinion of your new equipment.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Everything you say is correct Steve. But consider the difference a $55 refund, or even a $10 gift certificate or credit could make. Instead of a 4 page thread in a woodworking forum that is filled with complaints and perceived shortcomings about your company, maybe you get a 2 page thread praising the company and their commitment to their customers. Maybe you didnt make any money on this one saw or even one tenth (arbitrary no. of people who might request a refund) of the saws you sold at the introductory price, or maybe you even took a small loss, but you did business, and you did good business. Potential customers are left with a good feeling about your company. Maybe you lost $55, but you may realize a long term exponential gain. Or maybe you take the stance that your prices speak for themselves and the $55 extra you made costs you so much more long term.


Your right Timothy, the good vibe bought by those actions may be exactly what the company wants to get out of this situation, or maybe not. I guess I'd have to know Griz's positions to speculate which would be the correct course of action. Like you said, it really depends on the longer term goals, with strong consideration of short term requirements.

Back to the original posters question though, and the following posts, I think an interesting thing has happened, and I'd really be interested to test this theory.

I think that people that are not likely to buy, or are not Griz fans have come across on the side of Griz's position, more so than the Griz owners and fans. Am I right?

I think that Griz's position is correct, but I am not likely to buy any Grizzley tools. I do own a lathe duplicator from them, but that is enough for me. Thoughts on this? Could be an interesting indicator of whether or not this policy might play to their actual customers.

[Rick Thom]

Introductory pricing suggests to me that the price will increase. However, the current price is for a limited time only for a sale. The price may increase to over the launch price in next year's catalogue.
.....
MK
I agree 100%.
It appears Grizzly has a pricing policy, clearly states it and follows it. Whether, from a buyers perspective, that's a good policy or not is a different question.

[Maurice Ungaro]

Now the only way I could think of to get through to him was by posting this note here in this forum, as I have read that he sometimes monitors it. So this is why I am posting this, I am hoping to get an explanation from Shiraz as opposed to customer service.

Stan, I would think that if you wanted to contact Shiraz, you could send him a Private Message (PM), rather than putting out a blast against his company for all to see.

[Mark Hulette]

Everything you say is correct Steve. But consider the difference a $55 refund, or even a $10 gift certificate or credit could make. Instead of a 4 page thread in a woodworking forum that is filled with complaints and perceived shortcomings about your company, maybe you get a 2 page thread praising the company and their commitment to their customers. Maybe you didnt make any money on this one saw or even one tenth (arbitrary no. of people who might request a refund) of the saws you sold at the introductory price, or maybe you even took a small loss, but you did business, and you did good business. Potential customers are left with a good feeling about your company. Maybe you lost $55, but you may realize a long term exponential gain. Or maybe you take the stance that your prices speak for themselves and the $55 extra you made costs you so much more long term.

Yup--- word of mouth is golden

[Jim O'Dell]

Stan, I would think that if you wanted to contact Shiraz, you could send him a Private Message (PM), rather than putting out a blast against his company for all to see.

Maurice, I basically said the same thing in my post earlier, but then got to looking and it was his first post here. So in all fairness, the OP may not have known about our PM system, or that Shiraz is even a member here. Sure, he could have found out with some investigation, but I didn't do that when I first came here, so I certainly can't fault him for not knowing.
I say we let this thing die down for now, and give the Grizzly system time to work through and make their decision on what to do. It's a no win situation right now for Griz, and I will say that as a likely future purchaser of this saw, this won't have any bearing on my decision. Jim.

[Rob Cooper]

I recently ordered a dell computer for $1500. By the time it went into production, shipped and reached my door, Dell was running a better sale price on the item. By the time I loaded it up a started using the computer (<30 days) it could be purchased for $200 less. I still got a good deal on what I wanted at the time. I understand the op being a little miffed, but someone else getting a slightly better deal than me doesn't bother me.

[Cary Falk]

Back to the original posters question though, and the following posts, I think an interesting thing has happened, and I'd really be interested to test this theory.

I think that people that are not likely to buy, or are not Griz fans have come across on the side of Griz's position, more so than the Griz owners and fans. Am I right?

I think that Griz's position is correct, but I am not likely to buy any Grizzley tools. I do own a lathe duplicator from them, but that is enough for me. Thoughts on this? Could be an interesting indicator of whether or not this policy might play to their actual customers.


Your theory does not hold up with me. I made a purchase at the end of last year because the Pres. of Grizzly came on a couple of forums and stated that prices were going up starting in 2009. Now the sale flier is sitting here and I see that with the sale and free shipping prices are slightly cheeper. Am I angry with Grizzly and want my money back? No. I feel I got a great deal. In the current economy I am not surprised things are cheeper. I have 2 other large purchases on my list that are currently on sale. I am not in a position to buy them right now. If I buy them after the sale do I go to Grizzly and ask for the difference back because I didn't buy during the sale? No. The line has to be drawn somewhere and I think it has been in the correct place. If you had a price guarantee you would likely have paid more then you did.

[John Callahan]

What does Grizzly’s Introductory Pricing mean to you?
Not much other than it's the price at introduction- being part of a free market system, Grizzly is free to set the price when and where they see fit ........... the market will decide. From their website- "We make every effort to ensure that information on this site is current, however specifications and pricing are subject to change and are not guaranteed." (Underline is mine) That spells it out clearly enough for me. There is no explicit or implied price protection or price guarantee and Grizzly can set prices as they wish. Would I be a little annoyed? ........ maybe a little- $55 is $55 but I'd get over it quick and attribute it to luck of the draw and know that even at the original price, it was one heck of a deal. I'd be even more annoyed if they raised the price- I haven't got my G0691 yet. :D

[Paul Johnstone]

Chris, there are many people that will raise a stink just to try to get a little better deal than the last guy. I actually think that some look at this as some sort of a sick game. I used to have a couple restaurants, and if you give an inch on your pricing, you will be killed in the stampede to get in line demanding a foot.
.

Yes, that is the unfortunate thing. Companies get punished for trying to make good relations and have to draw the line.

Here's a good example. Delta used to occasionally send free parts to customers if they called in with a problem, which is an awesome customer service thing to do.. Well, I read on a message board about a scammer that found a broken Delta Drill press in the trash. He calls Delta, claims that he bought it new and it doesn't work. Without asking for any documentation, Delta eventually sends him a new motor and other stuff. And then this scammer has the nerve to brag about it over the internet.

Another example is when Amazon had the guarantee of refunding the difference if the price ever goes lower. Someone set up a website tracking amazon prices. You could enter everything you ever bought from Amazon and get an email if the price got lower. Well, on a "thrifty" website, some people were calling Amazon customer service and trying to get a refund of the difference, despite the 30 day period being expired. Amazon gave them refunds.. then word was posted.. People were calling to get refunds of less than a dollar for stuff they bought over 3 years ago.. Obviously, I'm sure this was one of the reasons that Amazon discontinued their "Best price" guarantee.

It's unfortunate, but there's enough bad customers out there that ruin it for everyone.

I think the OP has a decent point, but I understand why Grizzly can't give an inch here. It would potentially open up the floodgages. I also agree that "introductory pricing" was kind of misleading.

[John Callahan]

I think it's a little bit ironic Grizzly is being taken to task for dropping a price .......... if they raised the price $55 there probably would have not even been a thread dedicated to it. I understand the OP's frustration of seeing a price drop after recently buying something - I've experienced it but it is part and parcel of a free market system as is the freedom and ability for the seller to set prices in response to market conditions. We can't all be in the right place at the right time though we might try. Could be Grizzly expected their cost of the G0691 to rise after introduction but conditions allowed them to lower the price. I imagine Shiraz is probably wishing he raised the price $55 after reading this thread.

[Paul Johnstone]

I imagine Shiraz is probably wishing he raised the price $55 after reading this thread.

No good deed goes unpunished LOL :)

Earilier I said that "introductory pricing" is misleading, but I want to clarify that I think Griz did nothing wrong. I think they should refrain from using that phrase unless it is truly a special introductory deal, not because it is unethical.. just to avoid confusion with customers.

[Jeff Tobert]

I received an unsolicited partial refund from a certain Canadian tool company by mail, when they lowered the price of something I purchased.

That's customer service, and I would expect that Grizzly would at least give an in house credit.

Regards, Rod.


I also received an unsolicited refund of around $20.00 from Lee Valley tools, when I bought a template for my Leigh Jig. The price dropped and they took the time to look at their records, see who had recently purchased at the higher price, phone me and tell me that I was getting a refund, and then send me out a cheque. This may be above and beyond what can be expected from a retail company, but I know I will be a Lee Valley customer for life.

BTW I am also a Grizzly customer who lives in Canada, travels across the border (Grizzly cannot sell or ship to Canada due to a non-competition agreement with Busy Bee tools) to buy all of my major tools from Grizzly. I am really pleased with Grizzly and have been impressed with all of their tools and pricing especially. Even after the exchange on the Canadian dollar, the travel expense, the duty at the border, and the hassle of going down there and picking it up, I still save around 15-20%. Busy Bee has similar tools here that I could get without all of the trouble, but Grizzly's have much better fit and finish at much less cost.

Bottom line: Does Grizzly owe a refund? No, but it would not hurt in terms of building customer relations and would probably wind up making them more money in the end.

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Seriously guys! Give the OP a break. Go read his second post again (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1108881&postcount=18).

[Brian Kent]

Thank you so much for lowering prices. I honor your integrity and thank you for adjusting prices downward when you can. Thank you!

[Carlos Alden]

No good deed goes unpunished LOL :)

Earilier I said that "introductory pricing" is misleading, but I want to clarify that I think Griz did nothing wrong. I think they should refrain from using that phrase unless it is truly a special introductory deal, not because it is unethical.. just to avoid confusion with customers.

Paul:

Well put. The OP was commenting on the confusion caused by the phrase "introductory pricing," NOT complaining that they dropped the price. He also was NOT complaining about Grizzly. I agree with you - if a company says "introductory pricing" they need to know it means "lower get-it-now pricing" to a great many people, and not because those people are misunderstanding it. It's a totally valid interpretation of that phrase.

This is a fully legitimate question on a forum that devotes a big chunk of space to buying power tools.

Carlos

[Rob Damon]

"Instead of a 4 page thread in a woodworking forum "


I see the original poster only made two posts, the members and contributers are the ones that made it into "4" pages of posts.:rolleyes:

I wonder how the the tread would have been directed if "Grizzly" had not been in the story line. If the question had simply been, what does " IP " mean to you.

To me, it doesn't make any difference whether he got a good value for the money, even paying the additional $50. Not relevant to the question. Why buy anything on sale if it is a good value for the money at the full price. Lots of folks pay full price.

To me it doesn't make any difference which company it was that made the advertisement. Again, not relevant. If it had been a company with a really bad customer service and bad sales tactics, would there have been as many jumping on him for complaining.

The question to me is "What is introductory pricing". When I go to the Adobe site and I see the latest upgrade for creative suites at an introductory price, it always means a lower price for a short time, then up to a higher price after that period.

I am not sure I have ever seen a case where the introductory price actually went down, unless it was a bad product that just didn't sale and it was quickly being discounted, to empty out stock. Others may be able to show a example, but in 51 years, I have never seen it.

Rob

[Craig Coney]

To me the introductory pricing is the price they are bringing a product to market. I typically don't get excited about introductory pricing unless they state a discount ( substantial for me to notice it ) from retail for a specific amount of time.

If you agreed to buy the machine at the price at the time of purchase, then you should be happy. You could ask them to honor the new price, but I would not expect them to. For $55, you would probably spend twice that in time trying to get the discount.

[Stan Wiley]

I had no intention to instigate any negative press for Grizzly, they certainly don’t deserve it (hopefully Shiraz doesn’t hate me). In fact I just placed another order with Grizzly for about $150.00. As I said before, I was curious as to what Shiraz’s and other member’s opinions were, on the “Intro Pricing” concept. I am no longer curious. This thing has taken on a life of it’s own. If this continues to be a hot topic, that’s up to all of you, as far as I know, I can’t delete this thread. I have moved on.

As far as “hoping to get” a refund. If one were to be offered now, I would not accept it. I do not want to be the one responsible for a “flood” of potential refund requests, from other customers. I like doing business with Grizzly and intend to continue doing so.

For those who are planning to purchase this tool, I hope - when they do, they are able to get it at the current spring sale price or even lower.

This is my third and last post for this thread. :)

[Bruce Page]

Seriously guys! Give the OP a break. Go read his second post again (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost.php?p=1108881&postcount=18).

+1 on that!!

jeeze!

[Brian Kent]

Stan. You're great. Thank you for posting. Any more questions? :D

[Steve Sawyer]

Just to add my $0.02, I too would assume that "introductory pricing" is a low-ball to get a new product into the market quickly. But after thinking about it, there is nothing that really supports that idea - it's what I and many others have said, an assumption on my part.

I ran into a similar situation just this week. Bought an item from the Apple Store on Saturday, and when checking on the order status noticed that the item had dropped in price from $130 to $100. I called and asked if I could get the lower price. Fortunately, they do have a 30-day price-protection policy, and they're crediting my credit card for the $30 difference.

However, I was willing to accept whatever their policy was, because I know that companies DO have policies to cover these situations, and sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. As in your case, it was a good deal at $130, so I couldn't complain (at least not TOO loudly! :) )

[Glenn Clabo]

Thank you Ken for explaining your intensions and putting this to rest. This thread has run it's course and has been closed for further posts.