Need an electrician

[Andy Pedler]

Hi all, I'm hoping there's an electrician out there who can review my electrical plan for our kitchen re-model. I've been trying to research this to figure out what I'm supposed to do as far as circuits and loading goes. I'm going to the city to get this permitted this week and I'd like the gang here at SMC to sanity check it for me before they shoot it down.

Below is the plan I've come up with. But it uses 7 circuits, which seems like a lot. Here's the breakdown by circuit.

1. 20A circuit for fridge
2. 220V circuit for oven
3. 15A circuit for disposal
4. 15A circuit for dishwasher and undercab mounted lights
5. 20A circuit for microwave and undercab mounted lights
6. 20A circuit for outlets on one side of the kitchen
7. 20A circuit for outlets on the other side of the kitchen

Question #1: Can any of those circuits be combined and still meet building codes? I think not, but I'm not an electrician.

Question #2: Can any of the circuits be shared with the overhead CFL recessed lights (6 lights at ~26W each, so 156W total, 1.3A on the circuit)?

Thanks in advance!

Andy - Newark, CA

115554

[Jim Becker]

Not an electrician and don't play one on TV. But I did design my circuits when I gut-renovated our kitchen back in 2003.

I wouldn't combine the under cabinet lighting with the appliances (microwave and dishwasher)...depending on loads, you "might" be able to run those lights on the same circuits with your overhead lighting, however. The load has to be calculated. Your convenience circuits above the counters may also be set up such that subsequent outlets are on the opposite circuit to avoid potential issues if more than one person is using portable appliances on the counter simultaneously.

The bottom line, however, is that kitchens can be pretty intensive with regard to circuit use due to the nature of all the stuff that goes in there and code.

[Brian Effinger]

To add to what Jim said (btw I agree with him on the under-cabinet lighting), you will need to have the counter top outlets on a GFCI circuit. Also, when I wired up my dishwasher, I put it on a 20a circuit. I can't remember why, so take that one with a grain of salt.

To answer your specific questions, you want your larger high-demand appliances to be on their own circuits. As for your second question, lighting should remain on its own circuit, that way if you have to work on any of the others, you'll still have light in the kitchen. This rule applies to all other areas of the house as well.

Oh, and like Jim said
Not an electrician and don't play one on TV. But I did design my circuits when I gut-renovated our kitchen back in 2003. And I actually did the same thing back in December of 2003.

[Von Bickley]

Andy,

Rules will vary depending on where you live. In my area, all receptacle circuits in the kitchen are required to be #12 on 20 amp circuits. That includes the disposal and dishwasher.
The under-counter lighting can be on a 15 amp lighting circuit. I like to keep the disposal, dishwasher, and receptacles on separate circuits than the lights.

Hope this helps..... (retired electrician).......

[Chris Padilla]

I agree with Von (and whomever else also agreed with what he stated). :)

In general, put lights on their own circuits if possible.

In general, put general use receptacles on their own circuit or possibly two although these are likely to need GFCI protection.

In general, put dedicated/built-in/permanently-wired appliances (stoves [oven, ranges], microwaves, dishwashers, garbage disposals, refrigerator/freezer, etc.) on their own circuits.

[Andy Pedler]

Thanks for all the information, guys. So here is take 2. Basically the same as before with the following changes:

- The outlets for the counters are now alternating to split the circuits up (I'd read about this elsewhere a while back but forgotten it...thanks for the reminder).
- New circuit added for all the lighting.

So now all 5 major appliances have dedicated circuits: range (220V), fridge, microwave, dishwasher, disposal. Lighting is a dedicated circuit shared between the undercab fluorescents and the recessed CFLs.

I'm not sure that I'll have enough open spaces in my existing panel for all these circuits. Does anyone ever do a separate small panel for the kitchen? Otherwise I may need to get a larger panel and re-do all of that.

Thanks again for all the feedback and please send any more that you might think of. I really appreciate it!

Andy - Newark, CA

115658

[Von Bickley]

The dishwasher and disposal should be #12 on a 20 amp circuit. :)

[Chris Padilla]

I would be tempted to combine dishwasher and disposal on the same 20 A circuit.

You could put the kitchen on its own sub-panel...nothing wrong with that if you have the space or just get a larger panel to begin with.

[Andy Pedler]

I forgot to change my drawing for the DW to be 20A circuit. I'll do that now. Same for the disposal. Thanks Von!

I would also love to combine the DW and disposal but building code prohibits doing that. Why? I have no idea, but it doesn't seem to be unique to Newark (a little city with picky inspectors). I've found this in the codes for all the local cities. But it seems to make no sense. While they both can draw large loads, it would be exceedingly rare that you'd use both at the same time. We always run our DW in the middle of the night.

As far as GFCI protection goes, is having GFCI protected outlets sufficient or should I also get the GFCI protected breakers? Or both?

Thanks,

Andy - Newark, CA

[Rob Russell]

GFCI receptacles are fine and easier to reset than breakers. You push a button on the receptacle rather than go down to the breaker panel.

FYI, when you spec the circuits, if you use single-outlet receptacles for the dedicated appliances, you avoid the need to GFCI-protect them. For things like the refrigerator, that's important. You might want a GFCI receptacle on the disposal and dishwasher circuits anyway, but you definitely don't want one for the 'frig. If your microwave will be installed over-the-range, a single outlet plug there is a good idea. If the "microwave circuit" is to simply put a dedicated duplex receptacle on the counter near where the microwave will sit, you'll probably need to make that a GFCI receptacle.

Why? The code exception is for appliances that are stationary and not easily moved.

[Chris Padilla]

A lot of the new-fangled appliances today contain a fair amount of electronics. I had a couple "circuit boards" go out on my crappy Maytag refrigerator until I finally put in an outlet that protected it from surges and stray electrical noises (or something like that) and that appeared to help things.

This is an afterthought and is built into the receptacle so it doesn't really change anything you've laid out thus far...just more food for thought.

[AL Ursich]

Like everyone above, a 20 amp on the Dishwasher due to the heating element and motor running at the same time.

The post above about Circuit boards going bad, I agree with the separate circuits. In the long run from the panel your dish washer is running the heater and the motor and you turn on the sink grinder at the same time. The Drop in voltage due to the Current Surge of the starting sink grinder then it recovers in a split second causing that voltage surge that smokes circuit boards. Not every time, but just often enough to cost you some repair money.

As the Electrician tells you.... Pay me now or pay me MORE later...

AL

[Andy Pedler]

Thanks for all the great information guys! I appreciate it! :)

Andy - Newark, CA