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Ray Thompson
03-18-2003, 10:07 PM
I am down to two suppliers for my HVAC system for the new house, one sells Ruud and the other Carrier. Any thoughts from cyberland? I am still waffling between gas forced air and geo-thermal. $6000 difference in installation price. I'm just not sure that at age 60 I would ever see the payback.

Ray

Tim
03-19-2003, 6:04 AM
Hi Ray,

Proponents of a certain brand may disagree, but gas hot air heating is a pretty darn mature technology and I expect you would see very little difference between either of those major brands. It is also a very reliable technology and most any brand would probably work well. I would definitely base my selection on the service you have received so far from the supplier, rather than the brand. Also be sure that you are buying the right size unit for your needs. Getting service and parts, if and when they are needed, will probably be more important to you than which brand you have in your house.

Don't know a thing about geo-thermal. If the payback isn't there for you, why else are you considering it? Is it a more comfortable form of heating?

Terry Quiram
03-19-2003, 7:10 AM
Hi Ray

Happy Birthday!!

My brother switched from gas to geo thermal. He expects a payback in 15-20 years. BUT his house was already built and there was a lot of extra expense. Beside he is hardly ever home and keeps it set pretty low.

Did you ever consider radiant heat? For comfort level from room to room and even temp through out the entire day it can't be beat. Plus it is very quiet.

See you in a few weeks.

Terry

Jason Roehl
03-19-2003, 8:08 AM
Happy birthday, Ray!

From what I have gleaned about geo-thermal in some of the various construction trade journals, it won't necessarily result in a long-term payoff. Any system that has high installation costs typically will also have high repair costs. And since the savings/year is small it takes a long time to pay for the up-front costs, so long that repairs may start to creep up around the time you start to realize savings, setting you back.

As far as the brands go, I believe that Consumer Reports has given Carrier very high marks in the past, and I have seen a little bit that they have very efficient systems and quite reliable to boot (at a premium, I'm told).

Take this for what it's worth...I haven't quoted any sources, and I'd plead the fifth in court. ;)

Jason

Ray Thompson
03-19-2003, 8:31 AM
Originally posted by Tim
Hi Ray,

Proponents of a certain brand may disagree, but gas hot air heating is a pretty darn mature technology and I expect you would see very little difference between either of those major brands. It is also a very reliable technology and most any brand would probably work well. I would definitely base my selection on the service you have received so far from the supplier, rather than the brand. Also be sure that you are buying the right size unit for your needs. Getting service and parts, if and when they are needed, will probably be more important to you than which brand you have in your house.

Don't know a thing about geo-thermal. If the payback isn't there for you, why else are you considering it? Is it a more comfortable form of heating?

I have been talking to two local multi-generational companies that have excellent reputations for support and service. I wouldn't have a problem using either company so I'm trying to figure out if there are any differences in the brands (reliability, service, etc.) that they install.

With geo there is a higher initial cost but more even (and lower) annual costs of operation. The winter heating cost would not be significantly different from the summer cooling cost, attractive for a fixed income retiree. There are some downsides, higher maintenance after a few years depending on whether you install a closed loop or open system. The heat produced is a little cooler than a forced air system. One side benefit is you can get some (nearly) free hot water so your water heater doesn't run as much.

Thanks, Ray

Ray Thompson
03-19-2003, 8:36 AM
Originally posted by Terry Quiram
Hi Ray

Happy Birthday!!

My brother switched from gas to geo thermal. He expects a payback in 15-20 years. BUT his house was already built and there was a lot of extra expense. Beside he is hardly ever home and keeps it set pretty low.

Did you ever consider radiant heat? For comfort level from room to room and even temp through out the entire day it can't be beat. Plus it is very quiet.

See you in a few weeks.

Terry

Hi Terry,

Gee thanks, I would like to forget this one.

I have radiant heat now and have had for the last 30 years. It is going to be a major adjustment to go back to forced air. But the installation costs are just to prohibitive and if I go geo you have to go forced air.

See ya next month. Ray

Ray Thompson
03-19-2003, 8:40 AM
Originally posted by Jason Roehl
Happy birthday, Ray!

From what I have gleaned about geo-thermal in some of the various construction trade journals, it won't necessarily result in a long-term payoff. Any system that has high installation costs typically will also have high repair costs. And since the savings/year is small it takes a long time to pay for the up-front costs, so long that repairs may start to creep up around the time you start to realize savings, setting you back.

As far as the brands go, I believe that Consumer Reports has given Carrier very high marks in the past, and I have seen a little bit that they have very efficient systems and quite reliable to boot (at a premium, I'm told).

Take this for what it's worth...I haven't quoted any sources, and I'd plead the fifth in court. ;)

Jason

Maintenance is the thing that I am most concerned with the geo system. On an open loop system you can expect problems within 5-7 years, closed about 12-15. Those numbers are from the installers so I think now that I have written about it I just made up my mind about geo. I am going for long term reliability.

Ray

Charles McKinley
03-19-2003, 12:01 PM
Hi Ray,

Happy Birth Day.

IMHO you can do a lot of sealing and insulating for $6000. Look at the spray foam insulation.

Good luck

Ken Garlock
03-19-2003, 12:40 PM
Ray, as you know we built a new home this last year. I do not have natural gas near by, so I decided to go with geo-thermal. The alternative would have been propane which most folks use.

I looked at about 4 or 5 geo-thermal manufacturers on the web. I liked the Water Furnace brand that is manufactured in Fort Wayne In. A local company is the distributor for WF. The took a copy of my plans, and spent 2 hours having them questioning me as to how much insulation I would have, the brand of windows and doors, height of ceilings, how many people would normally occupy the house, and how many guests a one time. They constructed a heat loss/gain model for the building. Then they sized the system to that model. Our system ended up being a 5 ton WF compressor/heat exchanger with 4 wells each 300 ft. deep. The air distribution unit(evaporator) is a Trane variable speed DC motor unit and an Honeywell electronic air cleaner which services 3 zones. The compressor unit is in the attic of the garage, and the distribution unit at the other end of the building. There is NO noise from the system. I also had an Energy Recovery Ventilator installed to change out the stale air.

These units are not cheap, my system was about 2X the cost of a normal HVAC. I have had only one electric bill to check since the first of the year, and it was only $140 for everything. The estimated cost recovery is in the order of 5 to 7 years.

I would go with the closed well system after having studied geo-thermal. I find it hard to accept that your estimate was only $6K more for the geo system. I think I would do some additional checking. I had two bids, and selected the more expensive, but I also got a much better engineered system.

Let me suggest that you consider using Icynene insulation everywhere you can. It seals the areas it covers and stops drafts dead.

You can checkout the Water Furnace info at: http://www.waterfurnace.com From what I could find out, there are two brands of geo systems on the market, Water Furnace, and others.

Finally, get some engineering done on your HVAC. Any body that just comes in and walks around and quotes a size and price is just guessing and/or using some rule of thumb like a ton per 1000 sqft. That is a bunch of brown semi-solid waste.

And that is my opinion

Lee Schierer
03-19-2003, 12:51 PM
I heat my house with a geothermal heat pump and have for more than 15 years. It is clean quiet and doesn't cost much. I heat about 2000 square feet for about $100 per month. I have one utility, electricity and I pay $1200-1300 per year (includes lights, stove & hot water). Geo thermal heat pumps are more efficinet than gas or oil. The problem is the heat sink area. The current method of installation requires that they bury large areas of tubing on your property. Or they drill really deep wells. This is pretty costly, but it does pay back. NOTE: Conventional heat pumps get pretty inefficient when the outside temperature drops below 40 degrees. The geothermal systems don't have that limitation because their heat source is the earth.

My system is older technology and it paid for itself in less than five years as compared to baseboard electric which was my only option at the time.

I would gladly discuss this with anyone who is interested, but it is way too involved for a forum post. So e-mail me if you have questions.

Ray Thompson
03-19-2003, 4:55 PM
Originally posted by Ken Garlock
Ray, as you know we built a new home this last year. I do not have natural gas near by, so I decided to go with geo-thermal. The alternative would have been propane which most folks use.

I looked at about 4 or 5 geo-thermal manufacturers on the web. I liked the Water Furnace brand that is manufactured in Fort Wayne In. A local company is the distributor for WF. The took a copy of my plans, and spent 2 hours having them questioning me as to how much insulation I would have, the brand of windows and doors, height of ceilings, how many people would normally occupy the house, and how many guests a one time. They constructed a heat loss/gain model for the building. Then they sized the system to that model. Our system ended up being a 5 ton WF compressor/heat exchanger with 4 wells each 300 ft. deep. The air distribution unit(evaporator) is a Trane variable speed DC motor unit and an Honeywell electronic air cleaner which services 3 zones. The compressor unit is in the attic of the garage, and the distribution unit at the other end of the building. There is NO noise from the system. I also had an Energy Recovery Ventilator installed to change out the stale air.

These units are not cheap, my system was about 2X the cost of a normal HVAC. I have had only one electric bill to check since the first of the year, and it was only $140 for everything. The estimated cost recovery is in the order of 5 to 7 years.

I would go with the closed well system after having studied geo-thermal. I find it hard to accept that your estimate was only $6K more for the geo system. I think I would do some additional checking. I had two bids, and selected the more expensive, but I also got a much better engineered system.

Let me suggest that you consider using Icynene insulation everywhere you can. It seals the areas it covers and stops drafts dead.

You can checkout the Water Furnace info at: http://www.waterfurnace.com From what I could find out, there are two brands of geo systems on the market, Water Furnace, and others.

Finally, get some engineering done on your HVAC. Any body that just comes in and walks around and quotes a size and price is just guessing and/or using some rule of thumb like a ton per 1000 sqft. That is a bunch of brown semi-solid waste.

And that is my opinion

Hi Ken,
I am going to check out the waterfurnace before making the final decision. The two installers that I weeded out spent a considerable amount of time with me working on loads and such, that is part of the reason everyone else was thrown out.

Ken Garlock
03-19-2003, 8:40 PM
Ray, it sounds like you are doing your homework :)

Ron Meadows
03-20-2003, 2:29 PM
Ray,

My neighbor installs HVAC stuff for a living. He told me that the new Carrier stuff is junk, high priced, but junk none the less. They have been having all sorts of troubles with their gas furnaces in particular. Interestingly enough, there are only 3 or 4 suppliers for heatpump compressors and Carrier just switched to their own brand. He recommended Trane, but said that Rheem and Ruud are also very good units.

If you are in a warm area the minimun SERE rating should be 12 to keep your energy costs down.

Don't know anything about geothermal. Sorry.

Hope this helps,

Ron

Jim Becker
03-21-2003, 12:24 PM
We just signed a contract for our new HVAC system to be installed in the first week of April. The four proposals we received included York, Carrier, Trane and Ruud. All of the systems were very similar in specifications...with the normal small variations between manufacturers that is expected. From what we were able to determine, it almost doesn't matter which "brand"...if the system is sized correctly and installed correctly, you'll probably be pretty happy.

In our case, the York system is what "won" the deal and is a 94% efficient 2-stage gas furnace with a 2-stage A/C system. We considered the geo-thermal, but the cost differential was way too great relative to the payback.