Average Life of Laser Tube

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I am looking at purchasing an Epilog laser. I am wondering on how long most of you have had your current tubes. Generally I have seen the posts where users have replaced or had the tubes recharged.

Im looking at getting a mini 24 60Watt or Helix 60Watt. The mini24 has radiance optics and the helix does not. Any thoughts on that. From a few threads I have read is that the Radiance optics gives you tighter beem but it has more divergance so may not be as good at cutting thicker material as say the same power Helix.

[onur cakir]

Hi Michael;

As far as i know epilog tube is replaced after 10.000 working hours.

I guess if you work 10.000 hours with laser in short time you can even buy a new laser with the profit that you will make :cool:

[Joe Pelonio]

When I bought mine the tube was rated at 11,000 hours, but lasted less than 1/3 that and was replaced on warranty. The second didn't do much better but the third is probably getting close. Like anything, you could have bad luck
and get one with a defect from the factory that supplies them to Epilog. In the first two cases is was electronics that were bad, not that the tube was "used up."

[Albert Nix]

You know, about all the the distributors tell you how long the tube will last before it has to be replaced/recharged. I feel like the folks that build them should be required to install an hour meter on each machine. I assume tube life will depend on power and other settings but if we could track run time it would help. I would be willing to bet the service folks can pull this information from your machine so I feel like we should be able to also. I was told that the advertised like of my tube would was 10,000 hrs at 100% power. If I could run it 8 hrs a day and it lasted 5 yrs that would not be to bad. At least it would be paid off lol !!

[Bob Merhar]

Michael.
The helix does have the radiance optics. Check the Epilog website for features. Here is a quote from their site "Epilog's Helix 24 offers our exclusive Radiance™ optics package, Air Assist, Auto Focus, Integrated Vector Grid/Vacuum Table and more!"

[Rodne Gold]

All the rubbish about 10-20 000 hrs is pure bull. Its basically a lottery - I have tubes go bad in 3 months , 1 month and up to 3/4 yrs.
I have had about 12 lasers in about 8 years , various wattages and various tube mnfgrs. I work my lasers 8 hrs a day over about 200 days a yr ,not one tube has lasted more than 3/4 yrs under those conditions.
Thats why I place a huge importance on no quibble tube warrantee when purchasing...at least 2 yrs.
I musta gone thru at least 18 tubes with my various lasers and only paid full repair/exchange costs for 3 of em.
Build in the cost of a full tube replacement in a 5 yr period if you want to calculate amortization of the machine. Its by far the most expensive single item repair ... the rest are rather mickey mouse (in cost) compared.

[David Fairfield]

My tube is a little over 3 years old now, no sign of power loss, still using my original settings. I think there are some much older tubes in regular use.

Dave

[Kellie Reinhart]

To clarify, both the Epilog Mini 24 and the Epilog Helix come standard with Radiance Optics. The main advantage of Radiance Optics is to shape the beam for uniform engraving and cutting across the entire work area.

Please refer to the Epilog white brochure or the Epilog website for more detailed, factual information on how the Radiance Optics work.

Kellie Reinhart
Airway Laser Systems
Authorized Epilog Laser Distributor
Findlay, OH

[Kim Vellore]

These questions comes up with Epilog tubes... is it because Epilog is more popular or the tubes more flaky and or pricey? My first tube lasted less than 50 hours and at that time the tubes were almost double of what it is now.

Kim

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I was told that Epilog is now manufacturing there own tubes. Is that true? It almost seems like I cant believe a darn thing I am told.

I was also told the mini24 comes with a 2year warranty. Does that cover the tube as well. If not I think Im going to have to pass on Epilog. I was looking at a $17,000 for the mini 24 60watt and if I cant run the darn thing for two years without a major outlay of cash it does not seem worth it.

[Joe Pelonio]

Mine had a two year tube warranty, the first was replaced at no charge. The second died just after two years.

[Roy Brewer]

I was also told the mini24 comes with a 2year warranty. Does that cover the tube as well.Michael,

Epilog has provided 2 year warranty on their laser tube for several years.

What is different is they are currently offering a free, second year of "bumper 2 bumper" warranty on most of their systems.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

So if anything happens in the first two years Im covered?

From what I can see from the posts on this forum. There does not seem to be anyway in He.. Im gunna get 10,000 hours unless I am very lucky. It looks like about 2 years is the norm. Now if I could just come up with the average cost. IE $1500-$2500. I could figure what I need to cover maintnance costs of the machine.

I am purchasing the machine to add to my robotics buisness and I can see $1000 per year in maintenance but not much more. On the other hand I will probably not operate the thing much more than a couple hours a day. I would think that it should last longer but it all sounds like its just a roll of the dice.

also if you pay to have a tube recharged I take it that if it fails in 6months you are out of luck unless you purchase a whole new tube or laser.


How does these costs and warranties compare to ULS?

It sounds like the ULS replacements are cheaper.

[Mike Null]

Why don't you speak directly to the manufacturers, they can tell you what to expect.

Re-read what Rodney has to say. Don't expect that because you don't use the machine the tube will last longer.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

My point is that the manufactures. Both Universal and Epilog say 5-7 years. Thats pure marketing hype. Thats also what Rodne is saying. It means nothing and from what I have seen on these forums it is not typical.

Also I have to think that a machine thats used constantly 8hours a day 5 days a week for two years would have a higher failure rate than a machine thats only used 2hours a day 5 days a week. Even if its not the gas leaking from the tube. These things get hot and heat causes wear and tear.

In any case what I would realy like to hear is from the individials who have had working tubes for 3 years are longer. I can gurantee you that the manufacures have the recharge/replacement figures but dont want any one to know them. The pick the numbers out of those figures that help them market thier products. I know, I used to be in marketing.

As it stands now I think I am going to go with the machine that hase the cheapest recharge/replacement costs and that the easest to change.

For now that looks like Universal.

Another reason is that the stock tube and lens on the Universal has a larger beam but has less convergance. Which means that it will cut thicker materials better than say one with radiance optics or an HPDFO lens. High res tiny dots are good for engraving but ...

[Keith Outten]

The tube on my Epilog Legend lasted just over a year. At the time the warranty was 12 months so I had to pay for the tube replacement. I was upset because the brochure I had been given boasted that CO2 tubes life expectancy was 20 to 30 thousand hours and mine couldn't have had 500 hours on it at the time.

Epilog told me the the life expectancy numbers in their brochure were based on the life of the gas not the electronic components. It is the electronics that normally fail, not loss of gas.

I have been recommending to everyone since we started this Forum to make sure and include a reasonable overhead fee in every job, this will help you pay for your laser tube WHEN it needs to be replaced. Those who are new to laser engraving often dismiss the fact that these machines have maintenance costs and they do break down. This is just one of the reasons that experienced laser engravers will always tell you to pick your manufacturer wisely and NEVER purchase a laser engraver based solely on price.

Knowing this....if you end up having to replace your laser tube within a six to twelve month period you had better be charging your clients an appropriate fee for your services. Otherwise you have spent a lot of money on a machine that removes money from your bank account and never makes a deposit. If you purchase a very expensive machine and think that you can make a living producing cheap products you are most likely going to be disappointed and suffer a financial loss.

I haven't laser engraved anything for anybody in over three years. My laser is only used to make signs, it costs me too much to own and operate to use it to make trinkets.

I have come to rely heavily on my laser engraver for my sign business. After a lot of thought and soul searching I decided to purchase a rotary engraver so I could move as much of the work that my laser performs to another platform that I believe to be more durable and most likely more profitable. Clearly there are tasks that only a laser engraver will do and some they just do better than any other machine. In the commercial sign world that I live in it pays to use the very best machine for the job and not depend to heavily on a laser engraver when you must deliver jobs on time.
.

[Brian Jones FL]

As it stands now I think I am going to go with the machine that hase the cheapest recharge/replacement costs and that the easest to change.


That statement right there is little more than marketing hype too.. Would you buy a car based on which one has the cheapest oil change? Of course not. Make a 10k+ investment in a laser based on the best quality and features, not cheapest maintenance. Especially when you're talking such a small amount of money difference from one maker to another.

[Rodne Gold]

A larger diameter beam wont really cut thicker material , in fact it can be quite the opposite
The collimation of the beam is so that it does not diverge over distance and is easier or better focussed with less losses thru air and optics.


A laser uses power density to achieve such high temperatures when it strikes an object that it vaporises where it strikes. It is all about power density , ie how much power is concentrated in the spot the beam makes , for both cutting and engraving.
If you have a 100w laser and the spot size is lets say 1mm daimeter , then the laser concentrates its power into an area of pi x radius(squared) or in this case 3.14 x .5x.5 = 0.8mm - so the density is about 125w/mm2
if you reduce the spot size by 1/2 by focussing thru hdpo or different optics , then the result is 3.15 x .25 x .25 = .2mm and the power density increeases to 500w/mm2
You are bascally governed as to thickness by the spots depth of focus , but more so by power density in that regardless of depth of focus , if power density is not enough to start the vaporisation process you wont cut any thickness.

[Dave Johnson29]

In any case what I would realy like to hear is from the individials who have had working tubes for 3 years are longer.


The Synrad tube in my ULS 1700 is dated 1992. It still works fine. Synrad stopped making parts for this tube about 8 years back. This machine was a bare frame unit used for production marking and I have no idea how many thousands of hours it had done before it arrived here, supposedly with a dead tube.

I had to replace the x-axis rails and the carriages. I had to machine up new roller mounts for the carriage wheels as the mounts were shot to hell so I am guessing in the range 10,000+ hours of wear.

I do not know if ULS still use the Synrad lasers but Synrad rate their tubes MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) at 45,000 hours. Admittedly I do not know if this is the origiinal tube with this machine, but dated at 1992 and no service available for the past 8 years and still going strong, that has to stand for something. No?

[Mike Null]

Dave

Could you provide some documentation from Synrad to verify that 45,000 hour number?

[Dave Johnson29]

Could you provide some documentation from Synrad to verify that 45,000 hour number?

Mike,

:) 10 seconds on the Synrad site.
http://www.synrad.com/LaserFacts/FAQs.htm
To wit...
How long will the laser last before "running out of gas?
We don't really know. Lasers on our LifeTest have passed 45,000 hours and are still going strong! Once the laser has reached the end of its useful life, a simple and inexpensive gas refill will restore the laser to full power.

As someone else said the electronics can let down the system but this one is still working fine. But to be honest I really know nothing of its real history beyond about 3 years back. The wear that was on the rails etc indicated it had a seen a lot of work though. Whether this tube was in it all that time or not, I have no way of knowing.

Pic attached. Right at the end of the first line is "1992" and I have had that confirmed by email from Synrad from the serial number when they informed me that parts are no longer available.

[Mike Null]

Dave

Thanks. Interesting that that equals running 8 hours a day 365 days a year for 15 years. The Synrad tube I had lasted slightly under 36 months running well under 40 hours a week or less than 5,000 hours.

[Dave Johnson29]

The Synrad tube I had lasted slightly under 36 months


:) Maybe that's "progress?" :D:D

[Jack Harper]

Dave - Is your tube a glass or metal tube from Synrad. I am not fully aware of their full lineup. I have their Firestar T-60 and they say it is supposed to last 35K++ hours. I am just not sure of the reality of that.

[Dan Hintz]

As it stands now I think I am going to go with the machine that hase the cheapest recharge/replacement costs and that the easest to change.

For now that looks like Universal.
Agreed...

Another reason is that the stock tube and lens on the Universal has a larger beam but has less convergance. Which means that it will cut thicker materials better than say one with radiance optics or an HPDFO lens. High res tiny dots are good for engraving but ...
Not sure where you came up with this one... the HPDFO is for ULS machines, and the radiance optics is Epilog's version. Both provide the machine with a beam collimator, which provides the benefits you listed.

[Bill Cunningham]

My first tube lasted 4 years, and a replacement cost 1300 (i think) So if you throw a dollar a day in a piggy bank, you will cover the cost of a new tube.. I think my first tube was a dud anyway, I just never realized how bad it was until I installed the new one.. For example, the only one would not cut leather of any thickness, even when new. The new one vector cuts circles clean through .125" at 100% power and 20% speed..

[Dave Johnson29]

Is your tube a glass or metal tube from Synrad.


Hi Jack,

It is their enclosed aluminum system.

I don't think they make any other type but it has been a while since I checked their line up.

Given my 1992 model, the 35K++ seems possible, even conservative maybe.

[Rangarajan Saravana kumar]

Hi,

I have been in this business since 2004. On my exp i would say, tube life is 14 mnths average. got changed 3 tube and fourth is emptied now.

30k hours are rubbish, and think its a good business to deal with this recharge only rather than doing engraving.

Regards,
Saravana kumar

[Bob Davis]

I had a 1998 Epilog Radius 25w up to 2 weeks ago. The tube gave no problems at all; lost around 5-10% power since 1999 when I got it and part of that was probably optics. We used it a lot throughout its life - typically more than 20 hours actual use a week.
It suddenly lost a lot of power mid-way through a job 3 weeks ago and I decided to replace the whole unit rather than go through a costly refurbishment on a 11 year old machine that I believed was close to the end of its life anyway. This particular problem was probably electrical.
The Synrad tube in the Radius was described as having a 20,000 hour expected life, but that figure in itself is almost meaningless. If it is 20,000 hours of continuous operation in a temperature and humidity controlled area with a rigidly controlled electricity supply, perhaps it is a very conservative estimate. Being cycled 20 times a day for 3-minute jobs in an unregulated environment would place very different loads on the device. I've been told local taxicabs that are rarely turned off achieve 800,000+ kilometres on the original motor, while an infrequently used car may be lucky to get to 150k. Same principal - heat cycling, startup shock etc.

[Michael Evans]

Michael,
Please keep in mind that you've only heard from an extremely small fraction of Epilog owners. There are literally thousands of machines out there being "rode hard and put up wet". One could only guess at what the real average tube life is, but I feel pretty safe in saying that it is a lot longer than what this forum is leading you to believe, what 2 years. Like we see in the news quite regularly, we only hear about the bad stuff. Epilog is to lasers as Cadillac is to luxury cars. Building in quality where ever possible. With that said, I too would also like to see a tamper proof hour meter and maybe a warrantee, not unlike the automotive industry, of 4 years or 8,000 hours for electrical failures or power loss greater than 80% of the original rating. This is a pipe dream that most likely resides at the bottom of all manufacturers suggestion boxes, but would be a bold move for any laser manufacturer. Talk about setting some industry changing standards.:rolleyes:

Just thinking out loud.
Cheers

[Dean Flannery]

I was told by a very long time laser guy that most tubes only last @ 3 years no matter if you use them 8 hours a day or 2.
He also said you should turn on your laser at least once a week even if you don't fire it.
My 25 watt Epilog Radius tube lasted 3 years almost to the day.
I did notice when replacing the tube that it said the laser tube has a constant "warming" charge whenever the machine is on so I have started turning it off right after the job runs if it's going to be more than 15 minutes before the next.
Hope to find out in 3+ more years if that helps

[Jacob Hebert]

As far as a ULS machine goes, we have a ULS M-300 bought before I worked here, back in April 2003. We just had to change the tube on it, six years later in April 2009. It was run a decent amount during the day; I'd estimate at least 5 hours a day.

[Mike Null]

Wouldn't the laser manufacturers use a longer warranty such as 3 or 5 years if those were realistic numbers? It's very likely that tubes, on average, probably last less than 3 years.

Due to extreme variables, particularly in the case of hobbyist users, it is somewhat understandable that the manufacturers to do not offer extended warranties.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Perfect point. If most tubes lasted as long as they say then why dont they offer longer warranties. I will not purchase a machine that does not have a full 2 year warranty.

Also the tube is by far the highest maintnance item on the Laser. No its not like changing the oil its more like the engine in the car.

The other thing thats important is what do they do if the laser fails and its not a the gas. ULS has a very resonable replacement fee for the whole laser tube reguarless of the reason for the failure. Thats not true for Epilog. Or at least thats what I have been able to figure out right now.

One thing that scares me about Epilog is that the manual says pretty much that they cant be held acountable by anything the distributer tells me. But I cant get any information directly from them I have to get it from the distributer. That seems like a Catch 22. When I am told by the Epilog dealer it has a full 2 year warranty. How do I know Epilog will honer it. What about the costs I am quoted for recharge and replacement.

I have been looking at a ULS system and it just seems that they are more straight forward. I am going to see a demo of one of the VLS machines this week. The tube replacements for the USL seems very resonable and even if I have a failure in 2.1 years its well with in realistic parameters.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Oh and by the way I have been told by both Epilog and ULS that the high Def smaller beams have very close tolerences and will not perform as well with thicker materials. Its also in a couple markering videos on the manufactures web sites. The High def smaller beams are meant for improving rastetr operations.

http://revision3.com/systm/versalaser2/

[Mike Null]

The warranty should be a part of your written quotation from any of the manufacturers. ULS makes their own tubes which is why their prices are lower. But tube prices vary widely by mfr. even if they are purchased parts.

My Trotec has a 3 year warranty on all parts.

A 2" lens is the standard of the industry. 1.5" to 4" lens are available as options.

Before I would spend extra money on an enhanced optics feature I would be sure I needed it. It is expensive and may not have any payback depending on your requirements.

[Rodne Gold]

the downsides of short optics are
Clearance to the object often requires removing Autofocus probes
Optics get smoke damaged quickly due to it being near the "burn"
Air assist needs different settings
Very poor "solid" engraving , lots of ridges
Very sensitive to any warpage or variation in material

The downside of long optics
Often table cant go down enough to allow the focal distance on highish objects
Air assist is often innefective
Very poor power density often preventing cutting
Very poor engraving of anything with detail
More burning and less vaporisation along with innefective air assist promotes flaming
Power losses cos of distance if engraving generates fumes
Magnification of final mirrror and system vibration due to "longer" beam thus compounding poor detail engraving

[Richard Rumancik]

. . .Could you provide some documentation from Synrad to verify that 45,000 hour number?

First, I would like to say that I think Synrad is a very reputable company and I believe that they produce good products. However, 5 years ago I had some email correspondence with a Synrad technician (after my tube failed after 30 months). I challenged him on the 45,000 hours statement ("Proven operating lifetimes >45,000 hours"). Although he agreed with my issue that the claim could be misinterpreted, he said: "On a 24 hour day, 45,000 hours is 5.13 years. I suppose if lasers are not returned for 10 years it is reasonable to claim that Synrad lasers have been proven to last more than 45,000 hours."

I would conclude that there is not necessarily a lot of scientific data behind the 45,000 hour number. I also suggest that the number comes from the marketing department, not the engineering department.

In my own case, I can't blame the premature laser failure entirely on Synrad. Some laser manufacturers were operating lasers tuned at 30VDC with a 32VDC supply, which can lead to RF board failure. Unfortunately, this makes it appear to be a Synrad fault when the OEM may be at least partially to blame.

[Rodne Gold]

To fix a RF board costs less than $25 in parts , we priced em.
The problem is tuning the boards.....
Synrad sent us very specific fix instructions but a specialised scope and an offboard PS/trigger/controller is needed.
I suppose we coulda fixed it and taken a chance , but didnt.
One thing we do religiously that seems to helped the life of our tubes is to dust em off with canned air now and then , do the same to the Power supply , and the enclosure the laser is in as well as fans.

[Dan Hintz]

Rodney, (I miss that 'y' almost every time)

I'd be interested in seeing those instructions...

[Dave Johnson29]

Hi Richard,

My unit is fully sealed with the electronics inside it and it was all made by Synrad. The only inputs on my laser is 110v for power and another for the triggering signal.

I reiterate that it has a 1992 date on the label and there is no indication of this ever having been rebuilt. I have no idea if Synrad mark them after refurb, but this is a 1992 model and it is still going quite well.

Synrad email 11/10/2008 10:27 AM:
"you have a laser from 1992 that is still working well. I want to make sure you're aware that if at some point in time it stops working, lasers of this vintage are no longer serviceable here at Synrad."

[Richard Rumancik]

. . . I reiterate that it has a 1992 date on the label and there is no indication of this ever having been rebuilt. I have no idea if Synrad mark them after refurb, but this is a 1992 model and it is still going quite well.

Dave, I didn't mean to suggest that what you have said is not true. With a statistical distribution you will always get anomalies in lifetime. That is why you get one laser that fails in two months and another that seems to last forever.

But with any particular laser, we don't know a lot of things about it - total operating hours, operating conditions, storage conditions, how it was transported, power supply quality, typical delivered power(100%? 50%?), etc. etc. Also, power drops over time, so if it started as a 35 watt and is now 25 watt we could still say it is "working". At what power level do we say it is "not working"?

With a used car at least we know the mileage, and have an idea of operating environment. The mileage will tell us a bit about duty cycle (avg miles/year). But with a laser tube we really don't have much to go on to say what it has seen in its lifetime.

We do know that the gas must be okay in your tube after 17 years (presuming no gas servicing was done.) So . . . 17 years x 8,000 hours per year . . . hmmmmm.)

Now most lasers, unless they are used in a 24/7 factory environment, won't see 8000 hours a year. How much use for a typical engraving laser? Even 8 hours a day x 250 days/year = 2000 hours per year. Okay, so a small business is burning the midnight oil. Let's say 3000. Or 4000 hours.

So why does Synrad give only a warranty for 1 year from date of manufacture? Typically the laser takes several months in the manufacturing pipeline. The OEM's have to pick up any warranty beyond what they get from Synard. I have always though this to be odd - a laser that will apparently last 45,000 hours is only warranteed by the manufacturer for maybe 10% of that at most. I cannot rationalize that discrepancy.

[Rodne Gold]

If you look at a laser , there is not that much that can go wrong , its a tube with semi silvered mirrors filled with a mix of gasses and some electronics to supply power to excite those gasses.
So either the optics in the tube go , or the gasses escape or the electronics go bad,
Look at the chinese glass tubes , they do more or less the same job and arent exactly cutting edge high tech. Prices quoted on a 75 w glass tube were like under $200.(yeh , I know the beam quality prolly isnt as good etc etc - but you get my drift)
I think the laser mnfgrs are to some extent gouging when it comes to repair of their sources.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

I was told by the Epilog rep that Epilog now makes there own tubes they no longer get them from a third party. He advised me that they have been manufacturing there own tubes for the last couple of years. If go to the Synrad site Epilog is no longer listed.

http://www.synrad.com/sales/oem_smallengrav.htm


Right now I am looking at the following:

1. A mini24 with 60Watt tube and full 2 year warranty.

2. A ULS VLS3.6 60Watt with Basic Air Assist and Cutting table. It has 1 Year on Platform and 2 year on Tube.

With the options on the USL they are matched very closely with both having both pros and cons. I have my quote for the Epilog and am waiting on the quote for the ULS. I have to go on a 2 hour drive to check out the ULS in person. Currently the Epilog has the edge because of the 64-bit driver, Network connection and Warranty.

I also have costs for swaping laser and the ULS is just a little cheaper than the Epilog. USL also has a laser upgrad policy but I am getting the max laser for both platforms so its mute.

I can deal with the replacement costs if I can get two years of use.

[Dan Hintz]

Michael,

Make sure you can't upgrade that to the 75W cartridge. When I picked up my machine, it was listed as a 4.60 because at design time the max was a 60W... but ULS now has a 75W cartridge which will fit my machine with no problem. I'm going to consider the upgrade if I end up doing more marking of stainless (extra power helps with Cermark to get more speed).

[Scott Shepherd]

I was told by the Epilog rep that Epilog now makes there own tubes they no longer get them from a third party. He advised me that they have been manufacturing there own tubes for the last couple of years. If go to the Synrad site Epilog is no longer listed.

http://www.synrad.com/sales/oem_smallengrav.htm


Right now I am looking at the following:

1. A mini24 with 60Watt tube and full 2 year warranty.

2. A ULS VLS3.6 60Watt with Basic Air Assist and Cutting table. It has 1 Year on Platform and 2 year on Tube.

With the options on the USL they are matched very closely with both having both pros and cons. I have my quote for the Epilog and am waiting on the quote for the ULS. I have to go on a 2 hour drive to check out the ULS in person. Currently the Epilog has the edge because of the 64-bit driver, Network connection and Warranty.

I also have costs for swaping laser and the ULS is just a little cheaper than the Epilog. USL also has a laser upgrad policy but I am getting the max laser for both platforms so its mute.

I can deal with the replacement costs if I can get two years of use.

That's news to me, the Epilog we had housed a Coherent tube. Is Coherent owned by Epilog? I also wouldn't agree that "Epilog has the edge because of the 64-bit driver, network connectivity and warranty". What some perceive as the best, others might not. My laser gets upgraded every time there is a software update because it's not all residing on the motherboard in the unit itself. So my machine might physically be 3 years old, but since it's run from my computer, any updates keep it entirely up to date. There is no "legacy" side of that model, where as putting everything on the motherboard leads to an eventual legacy situation. So I'm not sure I agree with your assesment that it gets points for being ahead in those respects. The day they ship the Epilog the clock is ticking, the day they ship the ULS, it doesn't matter.

[Mike Null]

Steve

I agree with you. I wasn't aware Epilog was building their own tubes. Coherent owns Deos and they were talking about buying Synrad but don't know that that ever happened.

I also would not let 64 bit driver be a determinant.

I've used Epilog, owned ULS and now have a Trotec. In my pecking order I'd go with Trotec, ULS then Epilog. (with Trotec, depending on the wattage you may get a Synrad or a Coherent tube)

On the bright side, all three have excellent tech support.

[Brian Jones FL]

There's no magic formula to how long tubes last really, and tubes are tubes in the end. I don't think any one manufacturer has found some super incredible tech that guarantees any length of life for a tube regardless, just look at the widely varying responses here.

I think the only reality is, lifespan of the tube has a lot to do with the frequency of use and the power used. Use it a lot at high power = shorter tube life. I too have seen them go up to 6 years and as short as 6 months depending on what they are doing with the laser.

[Mike Mackenzie]

I do not agree with the statement of use. Actually NOT using the laser is far more harmful to the tube than using it at high power for long periods of time.

Epilog used to use synrad tubes as did ULS. ULS decided to make there own tubes because they could control the beam quality without adding expensive optics, They also could now control the cost and lead times that previously they could not.

Epilog used the synrad tube for a couple of years longer and then switched to DEOS/Coherent tubes. Now this statement that they are making there own tubes leads me to wonder why, my guess is that the DEOS tubes were not that good or the cost and availability were not acceptable.

The other thing that is interesting is ULS has several patents on there tubes. I wonder how Epilog is getting around them I guess that is why the lawyers get paid big bucks.

The last thing to take note of making your own laser tubes is not as easy as you might think I know when ULS first came out with there tubes they went through a lot of grief trying to get them to function correctly and efficiently. ULS has now been Manufacturing there own laser tubes for 12 years. They have a very stable product now with some very good technology. I have to be honest it was rough the first couple of years but in the long run it was well worth it for ULS to design, build, and patent there laser tubes. They sell a lot of there tubes into the OEM market and there are quite a lot of laser engravers that are currently using the ULS tubes in there systems today.

I think the jury is still out on the new epilog tubes we will just have to wait and see.

[Michael Simpson Virgina]

Well I got my quote from ULS today. I wont give exact figures cause I dont know it thats ecepted on this forum. But I will say this. Originaly I was looking at the ULS3.6 12x24 60watt but they quoted me a ULS4.6 18x24 for the about the same price as the mini24.

This is with the noncomputer controled Coax Air Assist and Vector cutting table. This a very close to the Helix 18x24 60watt so I had Epilog quote that one. The Helix will cost me $2000 more.

The 64-bit driver is important to me as my main machine for design is Vista-64. That means i will have to use an intermidate machine to talk to the laser.

The other thing thats a Con for the ULS is I have to use USB. The Helix has a network connection that is prefered. This means I can access the laser from different machines in my lab. This will be important when I start using the laser for my photography business.

Once I get a chance to play with VLS4.6 next week I will be able to make my decision.

[Rodne Gold]

Mike , I can tell you , in my opinion and in Gcc's the Coherent DEOS gem series underwent some serious QC problems at one time , tubes were failing big time after short useage on our 3 explorers.
I think overheating and Power supply problems are the main cause of failure , but Im no expert.
EVERY one of our tube failures has been where the tube has been used at 100% power to cut stuff. Never failed in a raster operation. In fact right now one of our tubes is cutting slotted lines rather than solid , but still works in raster mode at low power engraving...I have no idea what that means tho.

Personally I dont believe that one mainstream laser at the same price level is better than another - I would buy on local support and length of warrantee.
Another of my pet theories is paying money for excess power and size is not the best policy.
I would rather have 2 smaller 30w machines than a bigger 75w.
We have a huge client base and work right across the spectrum re laser engraving. The amount of jobs we have lost cos an item cant fit into the laser is minimal and if you look at just about all our and other folks lasers , you will see the top left hand corner or the one near the origin is used big time and the diagnol opposite corner is almost brand new.
As to cutting , well the power will make a difference speed wise but not neccesarily to thickness wise due to beam shape.
As to engraving , most is done at less than 100% power and max speed ...so in this case actual thruput at top speed is more vital than power.

We have 6 lasers right now , all 30w , 3 with bed sizes of 1m x 500 and 3 with 750 x 420mm or so.
1 is down cos of a tube failure and another old ones tube is a bit dodgy but its still useable.
If i had one or 2 lasers with bigger beds and more potent tubes and one went down , my output would be severly compromised , with multiple smaller lower powered lasers , we can still produce big time.
Its VERY rare that the most significant portion of your work HAS to be done at the very limits of the lasers ability and if that is the case , then even the large potent small format laser is the wrong choice.
At any rate , before buying a laser , one has to have a pretty good idea of what you are going to do with it and what your target market is and why they are going to use you. The "lets buy one and suck it and see" attitude is a road that often leads to tears. We already had CnC and puterised engravers and thus a very good idea of our markets and a captive audience to draw on , we expanded markets with our laser from a good base. I have learned that introducing another process and or product , even if it does fit in with our existing customer base , is a huge excercise in marketing and isnt that easy to launch let alone generating profits.
Another thing to bear in mind is that we were some of the first ppl in our city (1mil + pop) to get lasers and now they are pretty common , so our initial advantage is that we WERE the only game in town , now there are lean and hungry wolves nipping at our heels and they are willing to price at levels tat are plainly not profitable to get the work and keep the income coming in to pay off their machines so the laser engrving market has become a free for all. Despite our exceptional quality , exceptional service and delivery , customers are easily swayed in these times by the cheaper price and ARE prepared to compromise for it.

[Dan Hintz]

Michael,

I picked up a Dell (<$300) to do nothing but control the laser, and a little bit of touchup work, as needed. The computer is obviously network capable, so I have access to anything on my design machine through shared drives. I prefer not to use the same machine for both design and control since the laser is controlled real-time by the computer... any glitch and you've lost the product. While a product is being cut/engraved, I can be working on the next design, then simply transfer it to the control system using shared drives.