Update: Grizzly loses a customer.

[Wayne Johnson]

Pardon me fellas while I rant for a moment...

Original post located here:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=86922

First off, I realize that the G0555 is a good bandsaw for the money from all of the rave reviews about it. However, I still kept my expectations low because I knew that it was a relatively cheap bandsaw. (I wasn't expecting a MiniMax.) Even so, the vibration that was in the saw that I received was unacceptable to me. Would you expect your new bandsaw to visibly shake when you turn it on? Mine did. Would you expect your new bandsaw to pass the nickle test? Mind did not.

So I went through the process of troubleshooting with Grizzly on the phone. They sent me some parts and I replaced them. The vibration did not get better. I examined every part of the saw that Grizzly told me to examine and could not find where the vibration was coming from. They finally agreed to let me ship it back to them for an exchange.

Now they tell me that their technicians have looked at the bandsaw and find nothing wrong with it. What?! Are they blind? Do they not have any feelings in their hands and arms? Did they even try the nickle test? My questions go unanswered and the only response I get after talking to 5 different people is, "I'm sorry sir, but the technitions have determined that there is nothing wrong with the saw. I do not know what specific tests they have ran." Bah! Hindsight is 20-20, but now that I think about it, I should have taken a video of the way the saw was acting when I had it. Then I could prove to them that it was vibrating/shaking.

Since they didn't find anything wrong I now have to pay for return shipping. By this point, I'm extremely frustrated with Grizzly and decide that I don't want to exchange anymore, I just want a refund. Now I find out that since I'm not exchanging it I have to pay a 10% restocking fee!

So now I'm out shipping to me, shipping back to them, and a 10% restocking fee for a grand total of $150! That was an expensive lesson to learn, but I have learned my lesson.

Grizzly will never get another dollar from me.


Wayne

[Carole Valentine]

Can't help with your vibration problem, but FWIW, I can't balance a nickel on edge on any of my machines even when they are turned off!:D

[Jay Knoll]

Wayne

Sorry you had problems, and I can understand your frustration with the decisions that Grizzly's customer service department made.

I would encourage you to share with Grizzly the postings in this and the prior thread. (You might have to print them out and send via snail mail) SMC can become a potent influence with manufacturers if they become aware of the wide number of people who read about our shared experiences. I, for example, have a very positive view of the Festool organization based on the information that I have read in other postings.

Right now I have a negative view of Grizzly, offset a bit by the other members' comments about their experience with their machines, but I am certain that the customer service department didn't consider that their job was to make you a satisfied customer, what ever it took. Now all they have is a person who is a negative advertiser -- I don't blame you a bit.

When I was doing my kitchen remodel, I bought my cabinets from IKEA and had them shipped down to Florida. When the first shipment arrived there was some damage, and I was very upset until I contacted their customer service team. Their first comment was, what is broken, we'll send you replacements right away. Do you need pictures/the other stuff back I asked? Not at all they said, we trust you. Just throw the broken stuff away.

As you can guess, I am an IKEA advocate, not a critic. They had subsequent shipping problems, but they never let me down.

Hopefully we can help other companies understand that the cost of correcting a problem is far less than the loss sales resulting from negative publicity. Just how many of us are there now in SMC? Think about the collective impact we can have!

[scott spencer]

Hi Wayne - Sounds like you're having a rough time with them, and I'd be upset too. Sometimes CS is only as good as the person on the other end. I wouldn't give up on that $150 just yet. They have on occassion gone above and beyond to remedy a problem if you persist. I'd try giving Bill Crofutt a shout and see if he can help. If a good 14" BS within your price range is what you want, I still think there's a good chance they'll make things right.

billcrofutt@grizzly.com

[Scott Coffelt]

Jay -- Why? Should I do the same for the crappy Ridgid or Delta stuff I have bought? You don't have to go around blasting to everyone, the word has gotten out here.

Wayne, Personally, this is an isolated case. I've purchased three machines from them and only one had a bit of problem and it was not their fault but some jackass from delivery who dropped it. Grizzly stood behind the purchase and made it right. So, I am sorry to hear about your problems and too bad you will not stay with them, but its your right. All I ask is that you provide the same feedback if you get a defective unit from another manufacturer.

All have their problems.

[Dennis Peacock]

Can't help with your vibration problem, but FWIW, I can't balance a nickel on edge on any of my machines even when they are turned off!:D

ROFL!!!!!!! :D

Good one Carole....!!!!

[Dennis Peacock]

Jay -- Why? Should I do the same for the crappy Ridgid or Delta stuff I have bought? You don't have to go around blasting to everyone, the word has gotten out here.

Wayne, Personally, this is an isolated case. I've purchased three machines from them and only one had a bit of problem and it was not their fault but some jackass from delivery who dropped it. Grizzly stood behind the purchase and made it right. So, I am sorry to hear about your problems and too bad you will not stay with them, but its your right. All I ask is that you provide the same feedback if you get a defective unit from another manufacturer.

All have their problems.

Good points made well there Scott.

But....my one severely bad experience with Grizzly a few years back is the reason why I don't buy and have never bought Grizzly tools again.

Shoot...I ain't partial to any one manufacturer.....when I get a bad product, I blast them in the correct perspective....Delta, Jet, Porter-Cable, Grizzly, DeWalt, Campbell-Hausfiled and Excalibur are just a few that I have "flamed about" over the years due to poor service or bad tools out of the box.

Everyone can't make a perfect machine all the time.....but after all, it IS the CS that makes or breaks a company after the sale. ;)

[Jay Knoll]

Scott

Please focus on the thought not on the company. I think it is important for all of us to know that there is good stuff and bad stuff out there, and if Delta etc are also crap so be it.

The point I was trying to make is that the companies might not realize that they aren't just dealing with an isolated individual, but when we have bad experiences and share them, it has a potential collective impact on that company's sales.

No one is perfect and product defects are likely to happen. The important thing to me is what happens AFTER that defect becomes apparant. Does the company blow off the customer (didn't seem to happen in this instance, they did send replacement parts) or did the stay the course until the problem is corrected. (That certainly didn't happen)

The web brings a ton of power to consumers because they can share their experiences, both positive and negative, to a much broader audience. We should use that power appropriately, not threaten, but to highlight what is "right" and what is "wrong" with our purchases. I place far greater trust in the experiences of those who actually use something than I do in the advertising claims in the magaizines. So, companies have to learn that how they treat one customer now has a far greater impact on thier reputation.

As a relative novice, I depend upon the collective information I pick up on SMC, it is wonderful to be able to interact with people who make their living doing what I do as a hobby. Hopefully, our collective impact can raise the bar with companies to improve their products and services.

Guess I've had too much coffee and too much time on my hands! Hope I haven't rambled too much.

Jay

[Greg Heppeard]

As a retailer of power tools, I have had problems with products of amost all of the manufacturers. Most of them take the time to make things right when I call. Shop Fox hasn't been the exception...they have tried to make it right and only failed once on my end of the business. Delta, PC, Jet, and most of the others have also had pretty good records, but all have had their share of failures, too. Most of the time, it just took a little more work on my part to get things done, but we always work it out to keep the customer happy. Customer service is my best selling product at our store.

[Rich Konopka]

Jay -- Why? Should I do the same for the crappy Ridgid or Delta stuff I have bought? You don't have to go around blasting to everyone, the word has gotten out here.

Wayne, Personally, this is an isolated case. I've purchased three machines from them and only one had a bit of problem and it was not their fault but some jackass from delivery who dropped it. Grizzly stood behind the purchase and made it right. So, I am sorry to hear about your problems and too bad you will not stay with them, but its your right. All I ask is that you provide the same feedback if you get a defective unit from another manufacturer.

All have their problems.Scott:

I respectfully disagree with your comments. You may be a happy Grizzler, but what about Dennis? Or the next Dennis? One disatisfied customer is too many. I believe Wayne has the right as a consumer to rant or complain. If people did not complain than we as consumers would suffer even more.

Thanks Wayne for Bringing it to our attention.

Perfect Example of Customer Service
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10559

Best Customer Service to All !!!

[Brian Riley]

Jay -

I have to agree with you. I have been doing woodworking for a few years now but still consider myself a newbie. I use the internet very much for research on my tool purchases (not to mention other purchases). Granted, it is human nature to pass along a complaint before a praise but it is message boards like these that seem to balance the scales. I rely on the personal expriences of those who have had the opportunity to use the exact machines that I am looking to purchase. Recently I decided on a bandsaw. It was the input from this board and others that helped me with my decision. Out of the manufactures that was on my list I decided to go with the one that had the highest praise in regards to their customer service (the saw received great reviews also). The other manufactures had CS reviews that went both ways.

I greatly appreciate hearing both sides of personal customer service experiences. As others have said every manufacturer will have "bad days" with their machines. I just like knowing that if / when I need their support it won't be like pulling teeth to get their help. It's bad enough that the equipment has failed - we call them looking for support, not to make us feel worse.


Brian

[Steve Clardy]

I have quite a mixture of tools in my shop. A lot of the machinery I use daily is Grizzly. I have been quite happy with how they perform and last.
I had one issue when I bought their 20" planer, and after a phone conversation and some new parts and a couple hours work, ended up fixing it.
I cannot complain about that as I was shopping for price at the time. For what it cost, 1199.00 delivered, compared to the same looking delta planer that cost 3500.00, I could well work on it some.
Everything else has held up great. True, the fit and finish isn't as nice as some other manfactures tools, but hey, I don't have a tool show room, I use my tools to make a living daily.
Would I buy again? Depends on what it is and what it costs.
As for posting a rant, if ever,I do not do that till the last dog dies and there is no hope of ever recovering from a bum deal. It really gets under my skin when someone posts before they have ever even contacted the manufacture about a problem. Don't get me wrong on that statement now Wayne, as you have been trying to get something worked out with them already before posting.
I would keep on them till satisfaction sits on your side. As in one of the posts above, get ahold of Bill. He seems to get things worked out when no one else will at Grizzly.
Steve

[Wayne Johnson]

I have emailed Bill and asked him to come read this and my previous thread.

My intention was not to bash Grizzly products. Like I said, I bought the bandsaw based on other woodworker's praises of it. I just think I got a bad one. In fact, I have owned a Shop Fox cabinet saw for over a year now (which is the Grizzly G1023L equivalent) and have been extremely pleased with it. I've recommended it to several people.

My intention was to relay my negative experience with Grizzly's customer service - something that I have not had to deal with up until now. It is my opinion that customer service is what makes a company. My personal experience has found Grizzly's lacking.

[Chuck Wintle]

You were right to return the bandsaw. Any company can produce a "lemon" but will they stand behind the product and do what it takes to make it right? Obviously Grizzly dropped the ball on this one so it makes me wonder sometimes about their commitment to customers. IMHO Grizzly should exchange your bandsaw for another and test it before shipping.

[Mark J Bachler]

Great customer service was one of the most imporant reasons why I bought Mini Max. equipment.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Before anyone goes to far into thinking problems are solely with the machine, we all have to realize our part in the equation! Is the floor level under the saw? Does the saw contact the floor at all identified contact points? Did you try some vibration isolation pads under the cabinet? Did you explicitly follow the installation instructions? When you returned the saw to Grizzly, did you disassemble any part of the machine that may have been the culprit, that Grizzly may have re-assembled correctly?

Bear in mind, our perceptions of customer service many times are influenced by what we want to hear! Also, most companies are not in business to lose customers. Finally, I would find it difficult to believe that a company as large as Grizzly, does not have a well-defined customer service program, that trains its people in how to respond so as to not lose business.

Take three steps back and rationally re-think the entire process. Maybe have another conversation with Grizzly. Let us know.

Tony Z.

[Bob Aquino]

That machine probably took some hard knocks getting to your house on the truck. Could have knocked something loose and made it vibrate. Also probably took some knocks on the way back, that could have put it back where it needed to be, but that is speculation on my part. The issue here is how is Grizzley handling the problem.

The biggest obstacle they (Grizzly) have to overcome is peoples hesitation to buy equipment sight unseen, trust that it will get to their house in good shape and if they have problems, that they will make it right. In this case, they obviously are not making it right.

Right now, I have two pieces of grizzly green equipment in my shop, one is a belt disk sander that I got new for about 199. Good piece of equipment for the money. Other is a shaper (g1026) that I bought used. Not really impressed with the shaper at all. Glad I didn't pay the new price for it. And no, I don't think the previous owner did anything to bugger it up, it just wasnt made that good.

I had been looking for a new bandsaw to upgrade my old antique delta 14" with. I went over the grizzley web pages several times, read Terry's review of the 17" unit and puzzled till my puzzler was sore. Ended up putting a deposit down on an 18" delta from the local woodcraft when they had their recent 10% off sale. Why go with the local delta vs. the internet Grizzly? Cause I could touch and feel it and if I had problems with it, I could talk with somebody face to face to resolve it if necessary. I also thought I was getting more saw for the money. Am I paying a bit more for the privelage, yep. And I will keep buying equipment this way because of stories like yours. I hope Grizzly learns that ticking a customer off over shipping costs is the wrong way to do business in todays market.

[Keith Outten]

Clearly we have plenty of threads and follow-up messages concerning the tools and equipment we approve of with plenty of praise of the manufacturers who provide great support. It is amazing to me that we rarely have the reverse situation in that someone has a problem that cannot or has not been corrected to their satisfaction.

From an administrative point of view we have always encouraged our members to report the facts as they see them. When a situation arises where a tool is unsatisfactory the details and all the supporting facts should be noted, as I believe Wayne has done, in order to document the situation as clearly as possible. Often it isn't the manufacturer but a breakdown in their tech-support personnel that causes hard feelings. There are definately times when the new owner is at fault or just needs assistance learning to assemble or use a new tool. These are situations where our public forums can be of assistance so we encourage everyone to make their case but try to be kind when you voice your opinions publicly.

Bill Crofutt is a member of SMC and as a manager of Grizzly Tools has been very helpful in the past when there have been problems with his company's equipment or their support. I'm sure Bill will jump in this time as well and help Wayne with his band saw problem. I just wish that more of the manufacturers would join us and provide the kind of support that Grizzly has in the past.

[Scott Coffelt]

Scott:

I respectfully disagree with your comments. You may be a happy Grizzler, but what about Dennis? Or the next Dennis? One disatisfied customer is too many. I believe Wayne has the right as a consumer to rant or complain. If people did not complain than we as consumers would suffer even more.

Thanks Wayne for Bringing it to our attention.

Perfect Example of Customer Service
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10559

Best Customer Service to All !!!

I agree, I would like for every product sold to be nothing short of perfect. But that aint the case, it's too bad that in this case Grizzly didn't make it right for the consumer.

I watch Grizzly bashing all the time on a nother tread, so much I got tired of it and don't go there too often. But on the same sight, I see the same problems if not more with Delta and those threads just don't get the same play. It's quickly written off as a oddity, when in fact it happens quite often. I wish I could afford the Mini Max's and other European stuff, but the truth is Grizzly is about my max. So far, I've not had a bad experience. That also said, I have boughten their better stuff (i.e., 1023S and G0513, etc.) maybe the lower stuff is a major drop off in quality or something. Anyways, didn't mean to say that the green does no wrong, just that they all have their problems.

[Donnie Raines]

I feel bad for the outcome here...for both you and the company. My general impression from reading your post was that you were not really sure you wanted this brand of saw. You even stated that you left your expectation somewhat low. Couple that with the vibration and the time spent trying to fix the saw and well......its a loose/loose.

I am not surprised by the companies postion on this. They sent you a saw, they tried(it appears) to walk your though it and then you sent the saw back when it did not. They put it toghther and it works fine...no excessive vibration. So wheres the problem?? It appears that there was something in the "putting togther" of the saw...by you and by them.

Think it about how many customer buy something from them, have it shipped out and then the customer changes their mind...they no longer want the_______. The customer calls back in saying "it" has a problem....I am sending it back. The comapny gets the package back and they find nothing wrong with it. So the company must absorb that cost....right? I say wrong. If the saw had an obvious issue they would take care of you....thats good buisness. They would be making a poor buinsess move if they paid 70 bucks each time this happen......then that cost we would be moved on to the rest of us...and thats not right either.

It sounds like you were hopeing for more then the saw was able to deliver. Sorry so blunt....just my interpration of what has been said. If you truly had a defective machine, I hope they make it right for you!

[Sam Chambers]

Wayne:

Sorry to hear about your experience with Grizzly. I have one of their drill presses and have had no problems.

As has already been mentioned, every manufacturer puts out a lemon, or a run of lemons. Even the best have problems. For example, Powermatic has a great reputation, but the fence on my Model 54 jointer was cupped. Honda automobiles are known for their reliability, but I have a Honda Odyssey that's on its third transmission in the first 50,000 miles.

It sounds like you gave Grizzly the chance to make it right, and they didn't get the job done. Frankly, that's not what one usually hears about Grizzly - That reputation is what helped me decide to buy a drill press from them. Hopefully they'll come around and refund your shipping charges.

[Arvin Brown]

How long ago did you buy it and how did you pay for it. I (without hesitation) would file a dispute with my credit card company and tell them that you received a defective product and the company would not fix it. You will get 100% credited back to your account. Only problem is that it must be disputed within 60 days of posting - I think.

[JayStPeter]

I've personally had the opposite experience with Grizzly. They worked hard to get me fixes for early production problems with my 17" bandsaw. It did take getting in touch with Bill C. I'll admit, the first round of customer service was dissappointing until I hooked up with him. Hopefully, that will take care of it. Let us know what happens once you get in touch with him.

Jay

[Rich Konopka]

I agree, I would like for every product sold to be nothing short of perfect. But that aint the case, it's too bad that in this case Grizzly didn't make it right for the consumer.

That is exactly the point. My BIL is a Grizzler and he has been lucky and very happy. Then you hear of an experience like Wayne and it makes you wonder. I have given them a hard look and almost bought some stuff from them. It's a shame they are so inconsistent. If companies would focus more on customer service instead of marketing we would be much happier.

[Bill Crofutt]

Grizzly has always prided itself on providing the best customer service possible. However, there is a difference between providing good customer service and absorbing costs that ultimately will be passed on to others. In this case, we assembled the machine and found nothing wrong with it. We also offered to waive the restocking fee if the larger and more powerful machine wanted were purchased.

Obviously, we now are in possession of a machine that has been assemble twice and cannot be sold as new. We were quite willing to absorb the loss of selling a used machine versus new (which far exceeds the 10% restocking fee) to save the customer.

As to the vibration issue, I won't try to explain or guess why it vibrated there and not for us. I think someone else has already made a few suggestions in a previous post. I had our QC supervisor plug the machine in and take pictures. Pictures of the saw running with a nickel balanced on the table are shown here.

http://images.grizzly.com/support/case0016/g0555-1_nickel.jpg

http://images.grizzly.com/support/case0016/g0555-2_nickel.jpg

http://images.grizzly.com/support/case0016/g0555-3_nickel.jpg

[Wayne Johnson]

Impressive. I would certainly like to know what I did wrong. I couldn't get it to stay up for more than a few seconds. Maybe it was because I was placing the nickle closer to the edge of the table. Also, does it visibly shake when he starts it up? The entire machine would shake on start-up and shut-down. I assumed it was some kind of harmonic in the vibration that it was hitting at a certain speed.

In any case, like I said, I can't prove it now. I just wish I would have taken a video of the way it was acting in my shop so that I could. The only proof I have is my word and my wife's word. She saw and felt it shake and vibrate as well.

Thanks for responding, Bill.

Wayne

[JayStPeter]

I guess it's kind of like when you take in your car and they can't reproduce the problem. They still charge you for trying. I guess you can't blame them, they can't work for free. But it does suck.

Jay

[Dave Moran]

Maybe they lost Wayne, but then maybe not. But the obvious efforts by Grizzly, including posting here have now turned my head and I will be sure to include them in my list of contenders for my dollars in my next purchase. In my job, even though I am not in customer service, I work with customer service closely at times and it makes me a bit critical of the customer service, or lack of in many cases, of other companies and this is an indication of a company that takes their customer seriously. I'm Impressed and I do not impress easily.

Dave

[Bob Aquino]

I have no doubt you could not get the machine to balance out. I am glad to see somebody high up in the Grizzly organization personally respond to your problem. But here are the problems I see with this whole scenario:

You paid to have the saw shipped to you in good running condition. It wasn't. You should not have to pay again and again to have problems resolved. You should not have to pay to get your money back. If the benefit of the doubt should go to someone, it should be to you, the customer.

Grizzly is making a effort to make things right. Shame on them that they didn't do more in the beginning to correct the problem without having their feet held to the fire on the internet. The normal day to day customer service is what tells the tale, not the special circumstances that get applied rarely.

The question I would pose is how can this be made a win-win situation for all concerned? You want a smooth running bandsaw, Grizzly wants to make you a happy customer and save face. I would suggest that they (Grizzly) send you a saw ASAP that will make you happy without any additional charges. You have been through enough with this purchase. If they hope to sell people like me their products, it will be through their products quality and the companies reputation to back that quality without spinning their customers in circles.

[Wayne Johnson]

Even though my position hasn't changed, I appreciate the fact that Bill took the time to get involved in my problem and also took the time to come post about it here. It shows what a valuable resource we have here in this forum. Bill is a representative of Grizzly and a member of this forum. It appears that I should have sought him out and taken advantage of communicating with him earlier in the game.

I have learned more in this one post by Bill than I did with all of my other conversations with Grizzly's customer service combined. They couldn't answer what tests where conducted. They didn't even know that I had sent back the riser block attached to the outside of the bandsaw package and that the extra parts where inside the bandsaw package - something that one of the Grizzly CS guys told me to do. At least, they told me they had no record of it which baffled me because they would have had to of cut the riser block package off first in order to get the bandsaw out of the box.

Again, I appreciate the extra effort by Bill. I just wish one of the other CS people from Grizzly would have done the same for me.


Wayne

[John Weber]

Wayne,

I wanted to add, many of the 14" saws have excessive vibration unless very well tuned. There are dozens at the wood shows doing various demos (Delta, Jet, General Intl, etc...) and as far as I can tell almost all vibrate more then I would consider normal. For a very smooth running saw, you might need to move up or a larger machine with a heavy frame and cast iron wheels, or an old style solid cast machine just as an older Powermatic 141 or General 15". While these saws lack resaw capability, they offer very smooth operation with superior construction and quality. You might also pick up "The Band Saw Book" by Taunton Press, for tips on band saw tuning. I'm not sure about Grizzly's return policies, but it was nice of Bill to respond.

Good Luck - John

I didn't have a good picture of my PM 141, but this is a nice saw as seen on the old ww machines web site...

http://www.owwm.com/PhotoIndex/Images/246-A.jpg

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Wayne, I would be willing to bet they got your saw mixed up with someone else's. Vibration like you report is very easily seen. It also could be that the person in charge of inspections could be at fault for misdiagnosing the problem...or maybe they banged it around during the shipment back and actually fixed the darn thing by accident!

I'd keep pressing until I got what I wanted. As time goes by we have all seen CS go by the wayside in many companies, it's our duty to make sure they stand behind their products if they plan on staying in business.

[Steve King]

I don’t know about Grizzly equipment but I do know about customer service. My profession has been compared to Lawyers and Used Car Salesman; I own an Auto Repair Shop. When I was in high school my dad said; what ever you decide to do in life, don’t go into the service business. Of course, being smarter than my dad, I opened an Auto Repair Shop.
Through the years I have found one consistent fact; that if you make one customer mad or don’t satisfy their complaint they will tell 10 to 20 people about their bad experience with my shop. But if you make them happy; they may only tell one or two people.
It didn’t take long to see that the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
Steve

[Rob Littleton]

I have no doubt you could not get the machine to balance out. I am glad to see somebody high up in the Grizzly organization personally respond to your problem. But here are the problems I see with this whole scenario:

You paid to have the saw shipped to you in good running condition. It wasn't. You should not have to pay again and again to have problems resolved. You should not have to pay to get your money back. If the benefit of the doubt should go to someone, it should be to you, the customer.

Grizzly is making a effort to make things right. Shame on them that they didn't do more in the beginning to correct the problem without having their feet held to the fire on the internet. The normal day to day customer service is what tells the tale, not the special circumstances that get applied rarely.

The question I would pose is how can this be made a win-win situation for all concerned? You want a smooth running bandsaw, Grizzly wants to make you a happy customer and save face. I would suggest that they (Grizzly) send you a saw ASAP that will make you happy without any additional charges. You have been through enough with this purchase. If they hope to sell people like me their products, it will be through their products quality and the companies reputation to back that quality without spinning their customers in circles.

Through all this, the bottom line is, Take care of the customer else someone else will.

I agree with Bob and can't really accept anything else but make the customer happy.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I am going to restate what I spoke of several days ago concerning the vibration issue: there is an implied responsibility on both parties to contribute to customer satisfaction. The supplier must strive to supply a quality product with operation instruction. The purchaser must install and operate the product according to the supplied instructions.

Personally, I have found issues with machines that were my doing! In particular, my 12 year old 6" Powermatic jointer had one hell of a vibration. I canged to a link belt and it was still there. I disassembled and reassemble and it was still there. I lagged it to the floor and it got a bit better. The light bulb finally went off and I moved it to a floor area that was flat, and the vibration completely stopped, without lagging to the floor. My 14" Jet bandsaw has a minor tendency to vibrate in the HTC mobile stand. Out of the stand, it is perfect.

The original poster mentions he had a riser stand for his bandsaw--was this installed?

I am one of the owners of a small manufacturing company (80 employees). I get involved from time to time in customer service, and our first course of action is to make sure the customer has acceptable parts, and then you work on correcting the issue. However, given the stringent nature of our quality system (automotive related, QS9000 registered), in 99% of instances the problem was with the customer. Naturally we can't tell most of our customers that!

As I said before, take three steps back and rethink your original process. Write down what you did each step in the way. Communicate that info to Grizzly and between both parties, you'll solve the problem or Grizzly will know what needs replaced, or re-written in their installation manual.

Tony Z.

[Greg Mann]

I can only second what Tony has stated and add a few experiences at problem solving of my own. Like Tony, I also am involved in manufacturing and, by default, customer satisfaction. We find that in most cases it is operator intervention that causes the most variability from ideal. Now I am not saying Wayne did anything eggregious in setting up his saw. But we all have followed threads here about 'tuning' band saws. We have books written on mastering the subleties of the darn things. I would guess a quick and dirty poll would reveal the bandsaw as the most difficult of our machines to get just right. The variables that can sabotage peak performance are many. When we buy our machines, we want them to operate as close to perfect as we can imagine it to be. That is as it should be. But perfect only happens when all contributing factors are also perfect and from there it can only deteriorate. So it is important that we explore all the things we can think of before determining that it, whatever it is, is a defective tool. Again, this is not a slam on Wayne. He obviously wanted this tool to be right. I just know from experience that I have fought problems until they became nightmares only to stumble upon the cause of my problems by accident. We can never know enough.


Greg

[James Carmichael]

I don’t know about Grizzly equipment but I do know about customer service. My profession has been compared to Lawyers and Used Car Salesman; I own an Auto Repair Shop. When I was in high school my dad said; what ever you decide to do in life, don’t go into the service business. Of course, being smarter than my dad, I opened an Auto Repair Shop.
Through the years I have found one consistent fact; that if you make one customer mad or don’t satisfy their complaint they will tell 10 to 20 people about their bad experience with my shop. But if you make them happy; they may only tell one or two people.
It didn’t take long to see that the CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!
Steve


Up to a point, I'll agree, Steve. However, having spent a considerable amount of time in software customer support for a Fortune 500 company, back when the expectation was that support should be free and a real human being possessing real technical expertise would answer calls, I have to say often times the customer has unrealistic expectations, even when the vendor has done everything possible to manage expectations.

In your business, of course, you have much closer contact and greater flexibility in dealing with them. And you are absolutely correct, people tend to remember and recite negative experiences much more than the positive.

[Kurt Aebi]

I agree with most of the posts here, in the fact that there are always 3 sides to every story - Customer - Vendor/Manufacturer - Truth.

It is definitely the responsibility of the vendor/manufacturer to supply adequate equipment and service (it was clearly shown here that it eventually was adequately shown that both were supplied) and it is the customer's responsibility to make every effort to assemble and setup the machine to the best of his/her ability, with the aid of customer service if needed (at first neither of these parts were evident - the customer had pooe expectations and therefore was tainted in his/her opinion of the machine and the customer service at first appeared to be inadequate [2 wrongs will not make it right]). Then the truth of this whole thing will come out - that is it takes 2 to tango - Both the customer and vendor/manufacturer MUST work together to a common goal - Customer Satisfaction!

I think the customer may have been hasty in sending the saw back, but I didn't see the saw in action. In my experience as an engineer with a small company that makes dispensing equipment used in the Pharmaceutical and Medical industry, I have seen more times than not that it is the setup of the equipment that is faulty, not the equipment itself. (As shown in the reply by the Grizzly Rep with the nickel, etc.) Many times I have received equipment here that the customer had problems with and I couldn't find anything wrong with it, only to find out it was a setup issue at the customer's site. I usually work with the customer to "educate" them about th esetup and solve their problem. The guys at Grizzly know their equipment and how to set it up and it doesn't surprise me that they found no problem. Maybe the customer Service Rep should have had a mechanic or QC guy give the customer a call back ad he could have gone through the proper setup techniques with that customer and the saw may have been ready to go by now. Maybe a bad or missing part would have been discovered and the saw may be ready to go by now.

I think we all should work together and be open to dealing fairly with each other and we all may be surprised at how nice things will work out.

Would the customer be willing to take the machine back if, say, the shiping charges were waived and an offer to have a mechanic available to receive a call when the customer gets the saw back and help him set it up over the phone?

If not, I am sure there are many woodworkers, like myself, that would gladly buy a machine that was returned and gone through by the factory service technicians. I have many Delta, Porter Cable and DeWalt "rebuilds" in my shop and I am more than pleased with their results - Why not a Grizzly. I just recently had trouble with my Delta variable speed drill press that was rebuilt by Delta, the distributor I bought it from insisted that I use his floor model until it was returned to me, I didn't take him up on th eoffer, but what customer service! Kudo's to him. I received the drill back and a $10.00 rebate offer for Delta accessories. No Charge for shipping to the service center or for the return and I am happy. Customer Service makes a difference, but so does a good willing, understanding customer.

My $0.02 worth, now I'll shut up and mind my own business.

Have a great day all.

Kurt

[John Miliunas]

So, I was going to keep my yap shut on this one, but then looked at the magnanimous amount of hits for this thread and realized that this is something of major importance to many of us. :) I decided to take a mental inventory (hey, no comments from the Peanut Gallery here! :D ) of my own experiences, good, bad and otherwise. :) I've purchased many tools from e-vendors and feel I've got a pretty good idea of how/where my tool buying buck$ will go in the future.
Amazon: Haven't had the need for using their CS, as all that I've ordered has been satisfactory from the order to final delivery and equipment has met all my expectations. Very satisfied.
Wilke Machinery: Purchased several items, sight unseen and from order to delivery was great. A couple minor equipment issues, which CS took care of professionally, pleasantly and quickly. Very satisfied.
Festool: No contest! One of the VERY best on each and every count! I did find a need to use CS (Bob :D ) and expectations were exceeded! Extremely satisfied!
Grizzly: One negative experience on a minor order and some problems with another (equipment). A couple issues with getting it resolved, but Bill C. came through for me. Satisfied.
Laguna Tools: Began with some major-league negative issues. CS made some limited efforts, at first, but no resolution. Eventually, it went as far as their General Manager and the owner himself. Outcome exceeded my expectations. They took what could've been an extremely, big-time BAD experience and made it an extremely GOOD experience! Very satisfied.
Eurekazone: Great experience throughout, as well as super CS and communication! Extremely satisfied.
Woodcraft(Local retail outlet): They have met all my expectations and, being totally one-on-one, the CS is up front and personal. They've always done a superb job. Very satisfied.

Now, the above represent most of my major purchases. I don't think I even need to elaborate on which ones will get my business first, second or third. :) There are also the e-vendors who, after making inquiries via their CS contact email address, have not as much as responded. You know who will NOT get my business, regardless of their pricing structure! The point being, Customer Service is and will continue to be one of my main criteria for tool purchases! Yes, for a couple of them, I too had to play the "patient customer", but the vendor eventually saw that I was pretty determined to support THEM and they felt they should probably support ME! :) Are these observations important to you, the reader? Maybe. Are they important to the vendor or OEM? Maybe BUT, they SHOULD be! OK, stepping down off my soapbox.... :cool:

[Gary Max]

I own a 6X80 belt sander made by Grizzly. When it first arrived I had some trouble setting the machine up. In the process I managed to destroy a belt. Got C.S. on the phone they helped me figure what I had done wrong and gave me a new belt--just to make me a happy customer. This was 4 years ago and the machine still runs just fine. If you have seen the stuff I build I need a big sander to help shape contours I aint being nice to my machines they have to work for a living.

[aurelio alarcon]

There is good and bad in all. It just happens. Although it does seem that making a decision about anything based on one incident isn't appropriate. If I were to listen to everyone who put down Craftsman tools, I wouldn't have ever considered buying anything with the Craftsman label. But I happened to walk into a local Sears store and found their Professonal grade tools very acceptable. I am not commited to any one brand of tools, but most of my tools are, indeed, Craftsman. I read one post here where I believe someone indicated that Craftsman sold a product that they knew would go bad right about the time the warranty expired (excepting a bedside alarm clock, how could they know how much each buyer would use the tool and how hard?). That sounds very hard to believe. Plausable I guess--I don't doubt that this could happen, but I doubt that it did, and what good would it serve to create such a reputatuion anyways? There are probably as many praises out there about a company as there are horrors. In any event, I believe someone out there is bound to get a lemon at some time from someone. It just happens. I don't care how much you shell out, or how good a reputation a company has, its just bound to happen. Two guys each buy two new cars the same year. One shells out a lot of money and buys a Jag to impress all of his buddies (like he needs their approval in the first place, but that's another "keeping up with the Jones" story), and the other buys a Ford Escort. Both of them drive their respective vehicles about the same amount. The guy with the Jag has nothing but headaches and continually shells out more money on top of his already high monthly payments. The guy with the Escort continues to take his annual vacations in that same Escort long after it has been paid off. I belive his son is now driving it. Customer Service is, indeed, extremely important. But one incident does not create a history. We all know that every Jag isn't a lemon and that all Escorts aren't as reliable as Ed's--er Ed Jr.

[David Rose]

Wayne, I don't know whether this is worth stating at this point of the transaction, but I think I will anyway.

I have a Delta 14" saw of US (4 years old) manufacture. I bought the saw as a primary saw for my hobby use. I had several issues and got smart-alec support techs on the phone the 3 times I tried. I don't think that I was the cause of the responses, but... I ended up correcting the deficits myself.

Anyway, you are right about the location of the nickel. The vibration increases considerably toward the edges of the table. I had enough vibration in the beginning that a nickel wouldn't think of staying up anywhere on the table for even a second. After changing several things, a nickel will stay up and vibrate and spin at the edge of my much larger than standard MDF table.

Things that made a difference were:
1. changing the belt to a link belt
2. changing to a better blade that was "flatter"
3. increasing ground contact and using rubber feet
4. aligning pulleys

Things that would still help:
1. new wheels with less runout
2. tires that are more uniform

I will replace the tires someday but probably leave the wheels alone. I pulled the motor within about a year and put a larger one on. That considerably changed starting and stopping vibration. It got worse! The motor I put on is an old, quality motor but it exerts considerable starting torque really jerking to a start. I will live with that.

When you get another bandsaw, from whomever, if you experience much vibration, isolate the problem by running it without a blade. If the vibration is absent or slight, you know that the tires/wheels/blade are contributors or the cause. It is amazing that this tool can run with low vibration at all with all the excess factors involved in comparison to other tools.

It really does help to have a smooth running saw for my uses (all sawing except mitering).

David, who lusts for a MiniMax :p


Impressive. I would certainly like to know what I did wrong. I couldn't get it to stay up for more than a few seconds. Maybe it was because I was placing the nickle closer to the edge of the table. Also, does it visibly shake when he starts it up? The entire machine would shake on start-up and shut-down. I assumed it was some kind of harmonic in the vibration that it was hitting at a certain speed.

In any case, like I said, I can't prove it now. I just wish I would have taken a video of the way it was acting in my shop so that I could. The only proof I have is my word and my wife's word. She saw and felt it shake and vibrate as well.

Thanks for responding, Bill.

Wayne

[thomas prevost]

Again, ditto, Make Bill aware of the customer service. He prides himself on resolving customer problems. If he has a bad apple in cs, it is history. I have 4 Grizzly machines, Service on all have been great. Sometimes is who is on the other end of the line, not the company as a whole.