lee valley vs lie nielsen

[Justin Cavender]

I am trying to decide what to do with my tax return and have been looking at planes and have noticed that all Lie Nielsen is making is bedrock reproductions. But it looks like lee valley/veritas is dooing there own designs I understand that the lie nielsens are good planes but come on can't they design something for themselves? Am I off base here?

[Brian Kent]

Both are, of course, outstanding. And you hit the nail on the head, that one specializes in doing a classic design just about perfectly and the other takes a fresh and innovative look at everything.

What most people here will recommend is to try both and use the one that fits your hands the best and speaks softly to you, "I belong to you!"

First choice is to go to a woodworking show with both booths and try the two equivalent planes of whatever you you want next and make a choice.

Second common recommendation is to buy both and sell the one that is second best for 80% to 105% of purchase price. (105% because your used plane at 105% is cheaper in some European countries than regular price plus VAT for a new tool.)

My choice was for a #102 pocket block plane from LN and a Low Angle Jack from Lee Valley.

Both companies are stellar in product, support, and people.

Brian

PS. Are you from a location where there is a woodworking show coming up?

[Mike Henderson]

Different strokes for different folks. Some people like the traditional look and some like the new designs. Both are good - you can't go wrong with either.

It's a bit unfair to say that LN doesn't do any original design. While their bench planes are fairly close to the Bedrocks, there are many design improvements in the tools, such as the improved chip breaker, "unbreakable" body, and thick irons available in O1 or A2. And many of their other tools incorporate design improvements, even if originally based on some historical tool.

Mike

[Randal Stevenson]

I thought some of the LV designs, were based on more European designs, like Norton?

[Mike Heidrick]

Low Angle Jack from Lee Valley

The answer to your what do I want to order question :D

[Joel Goodman]

I'll just second the fact that are both really classy companies to deal with -- and both are lifetime tools.
One difference is the depth adjuster -- in the LN (like the Stanleys) it just adjusts depth. In the LV it's the english style that adjusts depth and is also the lateral adjuster and is behind the top of the blade The LN block planes (including the low angle jack) don't even have a lateral adjuster - you just tweak the blade (it works!).
Another is the angle of the tote. More vertical on the LV; more angled on the LN.
Some of the available sizes are different as well.

[Brian Kent]

I thought some of the LV designs, were based on more European designs, like Norton?

Randal, what is Norton? I'm not familiar with that name as a tool maker.

[Mike Cutler]

Justin

Working from the Bedrock series as a starting point isn't a bad thing. It was a great design that has stood the test of time, but if you put a Bedrock next to an LN it's easy to spot the differences.
As for LV or LN? You can't go wrong with either company.

[John Keeton]

Justin, I agree with your assessment, but also agree with the comments of the others on the LN improvements.

Both are great companies producing quality products. The traditionalists seem to be drawn to the LN. For me, LV seems to be more innovative in their design, although certainly not constrained by a traditional look. I also like the Norris style adjuster much better than the Bailey style - although I understand the questions of backlash, etc. But, for me, the LV planes feel right, and are so much more user friendly.

And, like Mike Heidrick, I feel the LV LA BU Jack to be nicest plane I have ever used - although my experience is very limited.

But, there will be no clear answer to your question, as you will soon see with this thread. Both companies have large support camps. Using some of both is the only way to settle in to what is right for you.

[Sean Hughto]

but come on can't they design something for themselves? Am I off base here?

Yes, you are.

[Danny Burns]

Different strokes for different folks. Some people like the traditional look and some like the new designs. Both are good - you can't go wrong with either.

It's a bit unfair to say that LN doesn't do any original design. While their bench planes are fairly close to the Bedrocks, there are many design improvements in the tools, such as the improved chip breaker, "unbreakable" body, and thick irons available in O1 or A2. And many of their other tools incorporate design improvements, even if originally based on some historical tool.

Mike

I agree, and the extra 50 and 55 degree frogs, that are better seated than the Bedrock versions.

You won't find a nicer handle either.
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Bench Planes

Certain things on the LV planes appeal to the beginner, such as the set-screws that tighten up the blade near the mouth. LN just make sure the blade fits the mouth in the first place.

If you compare Bench planes at LN to those of LV , having the old style adjuster is more convenient than the LV Norris style adjuster for setting depth of cut. Creeping up on the depth of cut, when using the LN Bench plane is way easier, since you need to make several very small adjustments if you are looking for a thin thin shaving.

All you need to do with the LN is shift your pointer finger off the side, and onto the knob, twirl it a little, and you are off and running. The hands didn't have to leave the handlse at all. The LV plane requires you to remove you whole hand from the handle to adjust with the norris style adjuster.

The only time you need to have a tight mouth is when you are working wild figured grain. Since steeper angles help to attack the wild grain also, I put in a steeper frog at the same time, and this is placed so the mouth is tight.

When I go back to normal grain wood, I also go back to the 45 degree frog, and set it at a larger mouth opening, for all cuts, both thick and thin. This is set so the plane does not choke on the shavings.

In normal grain wood, you don't need to adjust the mouth for thickness of shavings, which most first time buyers don't know, and so the easy adjustment on the LV, which is not needed in normal grain, is an attractive feature to first time buyers.

All the LV Bench planes do is allow you to adjust the mouth opening, conveniently, but they do not allow a steeper attack of 50 or 55 degrees.
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Block Planes

As to the block planes, the blades fit the mouths on the LN so you don't need the set screws by the mouth, and if you can sharpen your blades at 90 degrees to the sides, which most sharpening jigs make easy to do, then you have very little to adjust, if at all, laterally.

Both advance the blade with a screw advancing system, and both need the pressure to be light from the cap holder, so no advantage there.

I like the LV block planes for certain work because they are wider, which is nice for some jobs.

So just maybe 'New and Improved' isn't all it's cracked-up to be?:confused::eek::rolleyes::cool:;)

[David Keller NC]

"But it looks like lee valley/veritas is dooing there own designs I understand that the lie nielsens are good planes but come on can't they design something for themselves? Am I off base here?"

Justin - Lie Nielsen has a number of tools that they produce that are their own design, just not bench planes. And there's another reason for this besides appealing to preferences for a traditionalist look - there's a limited number of ways to design a plane, though of course that changes when one considers small details - one could think up a lot of ways to knurl the screw for the depth adjuster.

And even Lee Valley has co-opted designs from the past. The adjuster in a lot of their planes are based on a design that originated with Leonard Bailey and Stanley, and was then patented in the UK by Norris.

The physics of these two adjuster designs are quite different - in the case of a Norris adjuster, for the lateral adjustment to function correctly, the iron must either be an exceptionally close fit in width to the mouth, or have set-screws on the side that can be adjusted to bear on each side of the blade. On a bailey-style adjuster, it doesn't matter all that much that the blade fit side-to-side, because the fulcrum action is contained in the frog and chip-breaker screw.

[Randal Stevenson]

Randal, what is Norton? I'm not familiar with that name as a tool maker.




And even Lee Valley has co-opted designs from the past. The adjuster in a lot of their planes are based on a design that originated with Leonard Bailey and Stanley, and was then patented in the UK by Norris.



Sorry, Norris. Too much work, and not enough play. Brain fa..

[John Schreiber]

Both are excellent products and excellent companies. You will be pleased with whichever you choose.

One of the advantages of the Lee Valley Bevel Up series is that the Jointer, Jack and Smooth all use the same size blade. That way, you can have a selection of bevel up blades at various angles for different work at a relatively low cost.

[Mark Roderick]

My best advice: buy one of each for each plane size (block, smoother, etc.), use them both for a month, and send me whichever you don't like. Deal?

[Danny Thompson]

LN = Diet Coke
LV = Coke Zero

[Charles Shenk]

Either company's tools and customer service are top notch. At the end of the day, either one will not limit you in terms of working wood. ;)

[lowell holmes]

I have the low angle bu jack from LV.. I also have the LN 4 1/2 bevel down. I will not give up either plane.

I have several other planes from both companies and I've never been disappointed in any of them. :)

[Justin Cavender]

Wow been away for two days and realy missed alot in this thread I started. I was shopping for a dedicated smoother and came to this conclusion about the designs and decided to buy the lv bu smoother and the two blades with different angles as soon as I get my tax check.

[Tri Hoang]

The balance on the BU smoother is excellent, more so than the jack, IMO. Both the BU jack and the BU smoother will give you excellent surfaces. However, keep in mind that within the LV bevel-up family, only the jack can be use for shooting...


Wow been away for two days and realy missed alot in this thread I started. I was shopping for a dedicated smoother and came to this conclusion about the designs and decided to buy the lv bu smoother and the two blades with different angles as soon as I get my tax check.