It Ain't Fair! A glue-up mishap.

[Mike Cutler]

Argghhhh.......

Sometimes this woodworking can be an infuriating experience.

I was gluing up the trestle ends for a Limbert style kitchen center island based on the Limbert #153 library table. Both trestle ends were glued up as a 2 piece panel, 35" long by 26" at the base and 19" at the top of the panel. A simple tongue and groove joint down the middle.
I glued 'em up with Titebond Extend, checked for alignment, checked for flatness and left them in the clamps for about 18 hours. Took them both out of the clamps and laid em flat. next day one panel started to bow across the width,and the glue line seperated. I figured I must have really screwed something up. I checked each half of the panel and they were perfectly flat.
When I went to rip the joint out on the table saw to redo it. I found that the glue hadn't set after 40 something hours.:confused:
One panel end came out perfect, one was a disaster. Now I'm worried about the one that appears to be good. It just ain't fair.
Oh well, I guess I get to try a somewhat interesting glue joint now so that both ends are exactly the same dimension. Should be interesting. Thankfully the repair will be hidden once everything is finished.
Thanks for letting my vent a bit. Everyone has been there so I knew you could all sympathize. I hate panel glue-ups.
Oh yeah, the bottle of glue, only 3 months old, is now in the trash.

[David DeCristoforo]

Question #1: What was the ambient temperature in your shop when the glue was curing? It sounds like it was too cold.

[Wade Lippman]

Question #2 What kind of wood?

I've used extended for years; always worked fine.
Why did you leave it clamped for 18 hours? Just didn't get around to taking the clamps off, or did you think it might need it?

[Brian Kent]

What are the differences between Titbond II, III, and Extended?

Is it mainly open time?

5 minutes, 15 minutes, and ?????


If it's just time will a different Titebond choice make the difference?

[glenn bradley]

Questions #1 and 2 are both important. Question #3 - If temperature was OK and the wood was not an oily variety, how old was that glue?

[Don Palese]

I guess that I would have taken some pictures and sent them with the glue back to the manufacturer. This could have been a problem with the batch and they would have "maybe" rewarded you in some way ..

Just my 2 cents .. sorry it happened ...

[Mike Cutler]

Thanks for the responses folks. I'll answer some of the questions you asked.

David.
The temp in the shop was about 70-75 degrees. I did the glueup in my basement. It's still in the 30's-40's here in CT. All of my glues and finishing products are stored in the basement that is heated. the shop is not.

Wade
The wood is padauk, and so far all of the other joints I have done are fine.
I had to buy another bottle, the one I used on the end panels, there wouldn't have been enough in the one bottle I had.
I typically leave a glueup in the clamps at least overnite, ususally it is closer to 24 hours. I'll do the glueup in the evening after work, and take it out the next day after work. Just kinda the way my schedule works out normally.

Brian

Titebond Extend has a longer open time, but has the same holding strength as regular Titebond III. I've used it many times before with no issues. It's a nice product and takes away theh stress of having to hurry on larger glueups.

Glenn
I bought the glue in mid February, but David raises an interesting question about ambient temps.
As I said before I store all of my glues in the basement due to winter temps in my shop. They can get down to close to zero.
The glue may have been stored in an unheated warehouse. I know the display I got it from was next to the door of the store, and a large plate glass window, and was definitely a little cold. Maybe the temp the glue was stored at in the store was a little low.

Since I have to redo the joint anyway, it's possible I may have gotten something on the wood and contaminated it prior to gluing it up. Redoing the joint will take care of that issue If I somehow contaminated the joint.

Don
I thought about that,and should eMail Titebond with the lot # off the bottle. I wouldn't be looking for anything in return, just a note that I had a problem. Titebond makes an excellent product, and even though I usually prefer to use epoxy, I have no problem trusting their product.

Sometimes "stuff just happens" in woodworking, and we have to find a way to recover. That's the challenge and the fun for me. It would be boring if everything went perfectly.;)

[Brian Peters]

Sounds like somethings up with the glue. Contact titebond. I've used old glue before and never had a problem with titebond like that. It's frustrating that it happened but just remember it could always be worse! There is an imprint on the upper portion of the bottle that has the batch # and date it was made in their code format I believe. They might be able to get some info for you.

[Ken Higginbotham]

I wonder if humidity may have been an issue?

[Pete Shermet]

How old was the glue (believe it or not it does have a shelf life) was the glue ever frozen?? all factors in it's failure. Because it didn't set I hope it comes off easy!
Regards
Pete

[Steve Jenkins]

I don't know for sure but I've been told that titebond extend is the only titebond that needs to be shaken really well before use.

[Mike Cutler]

I don't know for sure but I've been told that titebond extend is the only titebond that needs to be shaken really well before use.

Uh-oh. I'm starting to feel a little stupid here, actually more than just a little :o
You are correct Steve. Titebond's website says to agitate/stir the glue prior to use, and if it was exposed to freezing temps.
I think I may now have the answer to my failure. Thanks for that info.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...agitate/stir the glue prior to use, and if it was exposed to freezing temps..."

I have never used Titebond "Extend" but my "rule of thumb" is that freezing glue is a bad thing. Once it's been frozen it's dumpster food.

[Prashun Patel]

3mo isn't that long, and the glue should really only need stirring if it started separating. Also, your other joint appears fine so why would the glue be homogenous on one joint and not on the other.

Is Padauk an oily wood? Maybe wipedown the jt with acetone b4 regluing?

[Chris Tsutsui]

I wish they put date of birth or expiration date on the glue bottles because you don't know how long it's been on a shelf at the store.

Not that I'm blaming the glue, it could be the wood as others mentioned or the application, etc...

I know that if the label on the titebond glue bottle begins to wrinkle, then it's probably a couple years old. heh I have a bottle of TB original that's about 5 years old and that's what happened to the label. I know the shelf life is supposed to be like a year, but for some reason the TB still works so I'm not throwing it away just yet.

[Wade Lippman]

Uh-oh. I'm starting to feel a little stupid here, actually more than just a little :o
You are correct Steve. Titebond's website says to agitate/stir the glue prior to use, and if it was exposed to freezing temps.
I think I may now have the answer to my failure. Thanks for that info.

I have never agitated my Titebond Extended (well, actually TBIIE if that matters?) and never had a problem, even with a 3 year old bottle.
It was always the same consistency.

Now, if you let it freeze you may have found your problem.

I have only had 2 joints break. The first was planed 30 minutes after gluing; that obviously isn't your problem. The other just didn't fit as well as it should and I was hoping to get away with it.

[Ray Dockrey]

3mo isn't that long, and the glue should really only need stirring if it started separating. Also, your other joint appears fine so why would the glue be homogenous on one joint and not on the other.

Is Padauk an oily wood? Maybe wipedown the jt with acetone b4 regluing?This was my thought. I thought Padauk was an oily wood and needed wiped down with acetone before gluing.

[David DeCristoforo]

FWIW, padouk is not a wood that needs an acetone wipe before gluing.

[Chris Padilla]

Well the OP is agitated when the glue should have been! ;)

You'll fix 'er up jeeest fine, Mike! Fixing goof-ups is half of my woodworking! ;)








...the other half is hiding 'em! :D

[Phil Thien]

"...agitate/stir the glue prior to use, and if it was exposed to freezing temps..."

I have never used Titebond "Extend" but my "rule of thumb" is that freezing glue is a bad thing. Once it's been frozen it's dumpster food.

If the stuff is made in Ohio, and shipped via most any carrier (including UPS and FedEx) during the winter months, it is going to freeze at least once on its way to the outlet where you purchase it.

[Mike Cutler]

Wade
I don't know if Titebond III needs to be agitated/stirred prior to use. That hasn't been my experience with it at least. But it does clearly state that Titebond Extend, as Steve Jenkin's pointed out, should be agitated/stirred prior to use on Titebond's website.

Chris
I'm not really agitated per se. Maybe a little frustrated, ut It's supposed to be a nice weekend coming up and I should be able to spend a little time getting everything back on track.
All of my failure analysis training points to the glue, or the mis-application of the glue. I'm going with the mis-application on my part,and not really blaming the product.
I will however be agitating/stirring a new bottle of glue when I re-glue the joint.;)

Ray
To the best of my knowledge, padauk isn't considered one of the oily tropicals that require acetone. (Of course to the best of my knowledge I didn't have to stir the glue either.:eek:,;)

[Mike Cutler]

A little update on the glueup mishap.

I ripped the joint along the T&G line, cut out the part of the original tongue that didn't glue-up right, cut the tongue off, and then cut a new groove in both halves. The groove went from .375 to .410 wide in an 1 1/2" thick panel. Plenty of "fat" left.
I lost about 1/2" of total width, so I made a spline that looks like a cross from an end view. It acts as a spline, and has the 1/2' of material in the center to make the panel the correct size.
In the end I chickened out and went back to epoxy for the glueup, instead of the Titebond. I've been using epoxy for a long time, and seem to "understand" it better than glue.
The panel is flat and the repair will never be seen, so I'm happy about that.

Thanks for all the advice and help, especially Steve Jenkins for bringing to light the need to agitate/stir Titebond Extend. I'll not forget that!

[Byron Trantham]

I wish they put date of birth or expiration date on the glue bottles because you don't know how long it's been on a shelf at the store.

Not that I'm blaming the glue, it could be the wood as others mentioned or the application, etc...

I know that if the label on the titebond glue bottle begins to wrinkle, then it's probably a couple years old. heh I have a bottle of TB original that's about 5 years old and that's what happened to the label. I know the shelf life is supposed to be like a year, but for some reason the TB still works so I'm not throwing it away just yet.


Simple solution for this problem. Everything that I open for the first time, I use a piece of blue paitners tape and mark down the date. No guessing!;)