If you're thinking about buying a new Unisaw or PM2000-- WAIT!! [Archive]

Frank Trinkle

04-06-2009, 6:59 PM

Peter Quinn

04-06-2009, 7:15 PM

Can't wait to buy one....when my PM66 dies. If it ever dies. Seriously though, the entire saw stop concept and product is a great addition and innovation in the US wood working world. Will they tackle a slider or a small slider soon?

Dan Friedrichs

04-06-2009, 7:26 PM

Even if you tore out the safety features, it sounds like you'd still be left with a saw that is on par with, or better than, just about anything else on the market, and for probably about the same price.

I get a warm fuzzy feeling seeing a start-up company like SawStop manage to produce a product that rivals what a big company like Delta can :)

Bruce Page

04-06-2009, 7:28 PM

Thanks anyway, I’ll keep my Unisaw.

Just think, a few short years ago the internet forums were aghast at the audacity of Saw Stop trying to force their technology (no matter how great) on the other table saw manufactures.

Now they’re the cat’s meow.

Jason White

04-06-2009, 8:01 PM

For what it's worth, I just got a new Grizzly cabinet saw and can't imagine another cabinet saw being that much better (for 3 times the price).

Safer? Maybe. Better? No.

By the way, Grizzly now has a new 10" 3HP cabinet saw with a true riving knife for about $1200. The other saws with riving knives mentioned in the this thread are more like $3000. Also, the new Unisaw is the only one made in the U.S. (mostly).

I opted to get the older Grizzly G1023 because it was cheaper and time-tested, but I do think the newer Grizzly is worth serious consideration if a riving knife is important to you.

Jason

Thanks anyway, I’ll keep my Unisaw.

Just think, a few short years ago the internet forums were aghast at the audacity of Saw Stop trying to force their technology (no matter how great) on the other table saw manufactures.

Now they’re the cat’s meow.

Bob Luciano

04-06-2009, 8:19 PM

Sounds about right make us all buy a foreign made saw

Pat Germain

04-06-2009, 8:22 PM

I completely believe the new SawStop is an amazing saw. I also completely believe the price will hover on either side of $5,000. Too rich for my blood.

Jason Rutkowski

04-06-2009, 8:22 PM

Just curious, what kind of price point is this SawStop PCS gonna be in? Recently, I specced out a new PowerMatic PM2066 to the tune of around $4700.00.

Dwight Boesiger

04-06-2009, 8:30 PM

A few months ago I had my first serious thumb cut on a table saw in 50+ years of using one. A 3 hr visit to the emergency center and a residual loss of nerve function in my thumb, prompts me to seriously investigate a safer way to enjoy my hobby. After considerable internet research on SawStops Industrial Cabinet saw I was about ready to bite the bullet for SawStops CB31230 model to replace my 20 yr old Unisaw. Frank or others, whats your opinion of the relative merits of this versus the newer Professional model that you are testing?
Thanks
Dwight Boesiger

Craig Nickles

04-06-2009, 8:31 PM

I dont know about the rest of you fellas....................I would love to have one. My pocket book tells me differently. I bought a Delta Unisaw that was about a year old, with a bunch of accessories, for $1300.00 a couple of years ago. (A GREAT DEAL in my opinion) and i love it. The Saw Stop IMHO is just too high priced. I know, and your right, that no price should be put on safety, but I saved my you know what off to get the used delta unisaw, and there is no way I could do $5000.

Frank Trinkle

04-06-2009, 8:38 PM

I completely believe the new SawStop is an amazing saw. I also completely believe the price will hover on either side of $5,000. Too rich for my blood.

Actually, the new saw will be around $3000 complete with fence and rails for the 3HP model... and they MAY have an optional 1.75HP model somewhat cheaper.

Eric Roberge

04-06-2009, 8:39 PM

5K will prevent this:eek:...sold!...:D

Frank Trinkle

04-06-2009, 8:42 PM

Frank or others, whats your opinion of the relative merits of this versus the newer Professional model that you are testing?
Thanks
Dwight Boesiger

The new saw is about 200 pounds lighter with a little less cast iron in the trunnion. Full cast iron table and extensions and much more mobile (with the mobile base option). It's a 3HP only (currently), though they may have a 1.75HP option. It's basically the Industrial Cabinet Saw Jr.

Fit and finish is AWESOME, and the operational aspects are just as sweet... and that's BEYOND the trademark SawStop safety system. They have built an incredibly well-designed saw that will retail around $3000 with fence and rails as standard.

Frank Trinkle

04-06-2009, 8:44 PM

5K will prevent this:eek:...sold!...:D

That's for the INDUSTRIAL Cabinet Saw. The new one is the PROFESSIONAL Cabinet Saw and won't be available until this summer. (Around $3000 for the 3HP)

Jim Kountz

04-06-2009, 9:40 PM

Ok for the price of around 3k I would at least look at it. I never even stopped to hover over a SS before just because of the ridiculous price.

Barry Vabeach

04-06-2009, 9:53 PM

When they first announced the technology and were trying to license it, they suggested the technology would add about $500 to the price of the saw ( IIRC ) The first 2 entrants to the market had a much higher premium. The latest, the professional cabinet saw has a much lower premium over a comparably equipped Unisaw or Powermatic - though I think it will still be a tough sell to a person who is comparing it to a Grizzly. Full disclosure - I have the 17 inch Grizzly bandsaw and think it is very well made. I also bought the SS professional cabinet saw because I couldn't resist the temptation to save some money. I haven't seen the latest Unisaw or Powermatic so I can't offer any comparison as to those - though the specs make them seem similar ( except for the brake technology). I won't argue with someone who chooses not to get the SS, but I think it is good advice for someone who is looking and can wait, to do at least look at the pcs. In fact, if you can wait a little longer, rumor has it a SS hybrid may be coming soon, and that might be the best bang for the buck.

Paul Ryan

04-06-2009, 10:49 PM

When I bought my saw I though what many do. How can this saw (the PCS saw) justify an addition $1600 on top of a grizzly G0690. I owned a SC saw that was less than a year old, and is basically the same as the grizzly. I can tell you when you buy a SS you not only are buying the technology. You are also buying a much better saw. With out the blade break this is just a super nice saw. There is a lot of thought that when into making this saw, packageing it, and isntructing users on how to assemble, adjust, and maintain this saw. I guess it is like comparing a KIA, to a Cadillac (hopefully more reliable though). Both will get you were you are going but one will make it a more enjoyable ride. The fit and finish is 2nd to none, all I can say is it is a really nice saw. The table is also considerably bigger than a the grizzly saws. Now the table is smaller than the Delta, and powermatics, the cast on this one is only 27x44. But all in all I believe it to be just a better made saw.

Dave Lehnert

04-06-2009, 11:19 PM

I got to see the Sawstop at my dealer and like other has said it is one very well built saw. No comparison IMHO. The thing I did not like was it reminded me too much of my computer. Too much electronic stuff to go wrong down the road.

Pat Germain

04-06-2009, 11:24 PM

I agree the SawStop is a Cadillac of table saws. But not everyone can afford a Caddy. Some of us have to be happy with a Chevy. :)

Chuck Isaacson

04-07-2009, 12:51 AM

I have just one question, are they going to make one that is ADA compliant? I am in a wheelchair and they only saw that I found that will work for me is the Access line by General. It is a 3HP Cabinet saw as well. Kudos to them for stepping up to the plate to make something that help me enjoy this hobby safely. I think that more companies should step up to the plate as well. Though mine is a nasty sea foam green color!! Those Canadians can make one hell of a product but they need to pick a new color. That Saw Stop does look good!

David Dalzell

04-07-2009, 1:08 AM

Well too late for me and Saw Stop. I just took delivery of a PM200 Special Edition (Baldor Motor). Price was $2200. Free shipping. I have no regrets. I have used a Saw Stop (woodworking night class at the local HS) and was impressed. But except for the "Saw Stop" safty feature it is not much different or better than the PM2000.

Craig Nickles

04-07-2009, 5:57 AM

Even at 3K that is over twice what I paid for my Delta. And a contractor type saw, even a good one aint gonna be near what my X5 Uni is, IMHO anyway.

Frank Trinkle

04-07-2009, 7:15 AM

Even at 3K that is over twice what I paid for my Delta. And a contractor type saw, even a good one aint gonna be near what my X5 Uni is, IMHO anyway.

We're discussing NEW saws... not your used one.

Don Eddard

04-07-2009, 7:33 AM

Even at 3K that is over twice what I paid for my Delta. And a contractor type saw, even a good one aint gonna be near what my X5 Uni is, IMHO anyway.
This is about a new cabinet saw, not the SS contractor saw.

Guy Belleman

04-07-2009, 8:42 AM

In the last 10 years, I've owned both a unisaw and a grizzly cabinet saw, and after setting them up, both were great saws. Those saws are still sold and I would own either one of them again. Due to going back to work with the military, I had to sell both on transfers. Both cost about 2/5 of the Saw Stop.

Now some are awed by the safety features of SS. I am more awed by good woodworkers using sleds, guards, finger boards, hold downs, push sticks, etc. I hope the SS devotees can accept that others may not have the same opinion as they. I have always thought that good technique, planning and training is a better standard, and more proactive, than making a saw naive proof.

The new Grizzly saws with riving knives for only $1250 with free shipping are much more appealing than a $3K SS. And, yes, I have seen the SS at shows. Sorry, I am not impressed with the SS, and I am not sure the Cadillac analogy is valid either.

Pat Germain

04-07-2009, 8:49 AM

While I probably won't buy a SawStop cabinet saw, I'm glad it's out there and that I have the choice to do so. In fact, I'm thrilled that I have so many choices when considering the purchase of a new cabinet saw.

The new Delta Unisaw looks awesome. The PM 2000 is a great machine. I hear very good things about General cabinet saws. And since I have some Grizzly machines that I'm very happy with, I'm kind of a Grizzly guy.

I'd be disappointed if I was living across the border or overseas where my choices were limited. I recently saw an online question from a guy in South Africa asking about a drill press. His choices were very limited. Major bummer!

Frank, thanks for sharing your initial impressions of the new SawStop cabinet saw. I'm always very interested to hear about new tools; especially when the news is so good.

Karl Brogger

04-07-2009, 8:53 AM

Now some are awed by the safety features of SS. I am more awed by good woodworkers using sleds, guards, finger boards, hold downs, push sticks, etc. I hope the SS devotees can accept that others may not have the same opinion as they. I have always thought that good technique, planning and training is a better standard, and more proactive, than making a saw naive proof.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/25/94393263_1d20dc8ce9_o.gif

Frank Trinkle

04-07-2009, 9:13 AM

The new Grizzly saws with riving knives for only $1250 with free shipping are much more appealing than a $3K SS. And, yes, I have seen the SS at shows. Sorry, I am not impressed with the SS, and I am not sure the Cadillac analogy is valid either.

Once again... had you read the original post and the TITLE... this saw is being placed head to head against the new DELTA Unisaw and the POWERMATIC PM2000, NOT Grizzly's offerings which I agree are good saws.

As to your contention that your are " more awed by good woodworkers using sleds, guards, finger boards, hold downs, push sticks, etc.", it is still a FACT that there are an average of 30,000 Emergency Room visits for TS injuries EVERY YEAR... and of that total, about 3000+ result in partial or full amputations. And.... just reading posts here on the Creek, you will find many of those who you are "awed" by who have had accidents... EVEN while using your safe procedures... whether because they were temporarily distracted, misjudged a cut, or for other reasons.

The SS saw is a very well engineered saw BEYOND the Brake system... much better fit and finish than a LOT of other saws. The Brake system is the crowning point that simply makes this the safest saw on the market. I own a number of Grizzly products too (G0514X2 Bandsaw, G0490 Jointer, Downdraft Sanding Table, Tenoning Jig, Dust Collector) and while they are very good products, the fit and finish, precision tolerances, and user-friendliness simply don't compare with what I have been testing and seeing on the SS.

In my own case, I am a Heavy Helicopter Pilot and Defense Contractor. I have an extraordinary job that allows me to work on a six-week on, six-week off schedule, and with a substantially comfortable income. During my six-weeks off, I spend a lot of time pursuing development of my still very basic woodworking skills. If I were to have an accident... and especially if I lost a finger or two, I would no longer have my "dream" job... or my income. So... yes... I go for the Cadillac Safety System... not just sleds, riving knives, finger boards and push downs. Clearly, from accident statistics, those are LESS than guarantees, whereas the SS Brake system has been 100% effective for more than 500 potential amputations so far, and there have been NO failures of the brake system to work as advertised when used as designed.

My conclusion for MY needs... not anyone else's... is that this was money VERY WELL spent, not only on extremely high quality.. but on the innovative and added safety of the system that helps me pursue my hobby while protecting my career.:)

Eric Roberge

04-07-2009, 9:21 AM

Once again... had you read the original post and the TITLE... this saw is being placed head to head against the new DELTA Unisaw and the POWERMATIC PM2000, NOT Grizzly's offerings which I agree are good saws.

As to your contention that your are " more awed by good woodworkers using sleds, guards, finger boards, hold downs, push sticks, etc.", it is still a FACT that there are an average of 30,000 Emergency Room visits for TS injuries EVERY YEAR... and of that total, about 3000+ result in partial or full amputations. And.... just reading posts here on the Creek, you will find many of those who you are "awed" by who have had accidents... EVEN while using your safe procedures... whether because they were temporarily distracted, misjudged a cut, or for other reasons.

The SS saw is a very well engineered saw BEYOND the Brake system... much better fit and finish than a LOT of other saws. The Brake system is the crowning point that simply makes this the safest saw on the market. I own a number of Grizzly products too (G0514X2 Bandsaw, G0490 Jointer, Downdraft Sanding Table, Tenoning Jig, Dust Collector) and while they are very good products, the fit and finish, precision tolerances, and user-friendliness simply don't compare with what I have been testing and seeing on the SS.

In my own case, I am a Heavy Helicopter Pilot and Defense Contractor. I have an extraordinary job that allows me to work on a six-week on, six-week off schedule, and with a substantially comfortable income. During my six-weeks off, I spend a lot of time pursuing development of my still very basic woodworking skills. If I were to have an accident... and especially if I lost a finger or two, I would no longer have my "dream" job... or my income. So... yes... I go for the Cadillac Safety System... not just sleds, riving knives, finger boards and push downs. Clearly, from accident statistics, those are LESS than guarantees, whereas the SS Brake system has been 100% effective for more than 500 potential amputations so far, and there have been NO failures of the brake system to work as advertised when used as designed.

My conclusion for MY needs... not anyone else's... is that this was money VERY WELL spent, not only on extremely high quality.. but on the innovative and added safety of the system that helps me pursue my hobby while protecting my career.:)

Well said!

Rod Sheridan

04-07-2009, 11:40 AM

Frank, thanks for the taking the time to evaluate the saw and post your comments on the forum.

I agree with you that safety system is a great feature, well worth the cost.

If I were in the cabinet saw market I'd purchase one.

Now, if they would only put the technology on a slider such as a Felder/Hammer/MiniMax I'd be there in an instant.

Regards, Rod.

John Thompson

04-07-2009, 11:53 AM

Those of us who have been field testing are OVERWHELMED by not only the fit and finish, but by the functionality, ease of assembly, and the included accessories. It is one GREAT saw and is going to probably outsell the others by a large margin. PLUS... you will get SawStops patented safety brake system.

Don't end up with buyer's remorse until you've had a chance to see, or play with this new saw when released this summer. Three words describe this TS:

"WHAT A SAW!!"

Frank.. you go on to say..

The SS saw is a very well engineered saw BEYOND the Brake system... much better fit and finish than a LOT of other saws...

First... I have crawled all over the new SS.. Uni-saw.. PM and the new Grizzly TS with a riving knife at IWF last fall. The new SS is just "not" the higher priced SS in quality. It simly isn't as robust in machined components on "big brother", IMO. One would not be wise to compare an apple to an orange by giving the the apple the same name as an orange.

So.. since you are field testing the saw and make the statement.. "much better fit and finish than a LOT of other saws".. just what other saws are you referring to and could you give a side by side comparison of what components are better and why on the new SS?

I realize you are very excited about this saw but... you need to clarify why you make comparison statements with other than enthusiam and bravado in all fairness or... you might sound like an "infomercial". ;)

Regards...

Sarge..

Philip Rodriquez

04-07-2009, 1:07 PM

I am always amazed in the differing opinions on the SS threads. SS has generated almost a cult-like following… similar to Bill Penz’s DC groupies or a thread asking for the “best way to sharpen hand tools”.

People that own a SS always defend them and talk about the fit’n-finish…bla-bla-bla. While people that don’t own a SS will question the cost of the machine or compare the saw’s “value” relative to PM’s, Unisaws, Griz, etc. Everyone, and I don’t care who you are, has to make their decision based on their own “individual” set of needs.

When I purchase a new machine, I typically consider the following:

Cost
Warrantee
Reputation
Availability
Safety
Other

For me, I was completely put-off by the cost of a SawStop… In the end, I decided to purchase one for two reasons:
1) I could afford one, though SHMBO had to talk me in to it
2) If I ever have an accident, I figured I’d thank myself

Rod Sheridan

04-07-2009, 1:13 PM

Very nice Philip, I hope you never have the opportunity to test the safety feature.:D

How do you like the Excalibur guard?

Regards, Rod

Paul Ryan

04-07-2009, 2:27 PM

For me, I was completely put-off by the cost of a SawStop… In the end, I decided to purchase one for two reasons:
1) I could afford one, though SHMBO had to talk me in to it
2) If I ever have an accident, I figured I’d thank myself

Philip,

I couldn't agree with you any more.
I was in the same shoes as you. It was my better half that talked me into it as well. I had a SC saw that I was perfectly happy with. When this deal came up and I mentioned it to her, she said what are you waiting for. Last year she tried, unsuccesfully to talk me in to a SS, but I didn't bit. This time she succeded and now we are both happy.

I came out real good selling my SC saw. I owned it for a year, sold it for $200 less than I paid for the saw, but I included a jet mobile base that it was on and few jigs that only worked for that saw.

P.S. I have to agree with Sarge a little bit. I don't know believe this saw is as heavily constructed as the PM2000. But I do believe it is equal to or better than the late model uni's.

Cliff Rohrabacher

04-07-2009, 3:19 PM

It's been my experience that things labeled "Professional" are mostly just junk marketed to people who don't understand that professionals are not tradesmen and vice-a-versa. It's just a misuse of a word that apparently some marketing people think means a lot more than it actually does. Or maybe that those marketing people think that it's what their audience thinks.

The word professional doesn't mean good, well done, competent, for hire, it doesn't even imply adequate. It just doesn't mean any of those things. Yet over and over various entities (mostly marketing) are trying to tell you that their soap flakes clean better (than god knows what) by implying that it's "professional."

I wouldn't mind the terms Commercial or Industrial as they connote a level of durability and robustness.

All a professional is, is a person who has sworn themselves over to some higher cause. It doesn't mean they are any good at it nor that they earn a dime.

Philip Rodriquez

04-07-2009, 3:35 PM

I, too, agree with Sarge. I love my saw... but it cuts wood just like every other cabinet saw. What convinced me is what it won't cut... me.

Rob,
Funny story about the blade guard...

Prior to purchasing the blade guard, I ran a single 10' x 6" hose, off my Jet 1100 DC, and reduced it at the tool. I also have a JDS 750-ER to filter my shop air. The system worked pretty good and I never had any complaints.

Last August, we bought a new house and I moved from a detached garage to an attached garage. As a result, I started looking at ways to improve my shop’s DC so I can limit the amount of dust that makes it’s way in to the house.

I purchased the Excalibur blade guard a few months ago and I absolutely love it. I was completely surprised by the difference it made in my air quality. I never realized how much airborne dust my TS produced.

Knowing what I know now, I would have purchased the Excalibur BG long before I purchased the JDS air-filter... I am also amazed that almost all TS makers do not make TS guards with built-in DC ports... like the shark guard.

Neal Clayton

04-07-2009, 5:18 PM

I am always amazed in the differing opinions on the SS threads. SS has generated almost a cult-like following… similar to Bill Penz’s DC groupies or a thread asking for the “best way to sharpen hand tools”.

the guided skilsaw and festool people do the same thing. they're basically applying the same marketing tools that apple devised to apply to their computers back in the 80s/90s. convince people that theirs is better than other people's and encourage them all to get together so they can stroke their egoes over their toys, and they'll love you for it. back then it was the local macintosh user groups and usenet groups, now it's the blogs they pass out on their own site to mac owners and such. not to say apple was responsible for inventing the idea, the muscle car days had the same thing with mopar people. probably even earlier examples than that, which i haven't heard of personally. it's not a new trick either way.

i wonder how many festool/sawstop/etc owners are also macintosh owners and have an old dodge charger in the garage? ;)

either way, if the sawstop brake can trigger on the moisture from a hot dog i'm sure it can trigger on a sap pocket in yellow pine, so i'll never own one. good idea, not so good implementation imo.

Dan Friedrichs

04-07-2009, 5:40 PM

I think Philip has the right idea by suggesting that the SS may not be for everyone, depending on your individual criteria in selecting a saw. If you already own something that you're happy with, maybe it's not worth the additional money and hassle if you perceive that the only thing you get is the safety feature.

If you'd get really upset by it misfiring the brake on a piece of wet wood, then maybe it's not worth it for you. But I think there are plenty of people who'd say they'd gladly accept a misfire every 10 hours of use in exchange for the benefit of the safety feature firing if it was their finger, not wet wood. I'd be one of the latter, but neither is "RIGHT" or "WRONG" - depends on what you value in a saw.

FWIW, I couldn't really justify spending $5k on the bigger one, but if this comes in around the $3k price point, I'd have a hard time not buying it. I'm very young and make a living with my fingers. How can I not justify the cost? (Well, I should be able to justify the $5k cost, too, but that price seems to hurt WAY more :p). If your situation is different, though, you may come to a different conclusions, and that's fine, too. I think people get WAY too wound up over this topic. It's simple, really: Do your research, decide on your criteria, and make a decision based on that. Realize that others have different criteria and will make different decisions, and that doesn't make your decision any less valid.

Thanks to all the "beta testers" who have provided feedback on this saw. You've all got me very excited to see one in person!

Philip Rodriquez

04-07-2009, 6:07 PM

Don Bullock

04-07-2009, 6:53 PM

I am always amazed in the differing opinions on the SS threads. ...For me, I was completely put-off by the cost of a SawStop… In the end, I decided to purchase one for two reasons:
1) I could afford one, though SHMBO had to talk me in to it
2) If I ever have an accident, I figured I’d thank myself...

Philip, I filly agree. A SawStop isn't for everyone though because some will never see the need for one. Those are the same two reasons I bought a SawStop and I'm enjoying using it. Yes, I even use all those mentioned "safety" devices on it as well, especially the easy to use blade guard.

As for the OP: It sounds like SawStop has another great addition to their line of saws. I wish that the one you're testing had been available when I bought my SS. Thanks for letting people know about it.

Frank Trinkle

04-07-2009, 8:25 PM

however we don't need 3 threads on the first two pages of this forum one of them being a "IF YOU DON'T BUY THIS YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" about it.

I take strong exception to that statement!

In no manner have I expressed that you would be wrong to not buy this saw. I especially don't appreciate having words put in my mouth.

You can be anti-sawstop all you want... but do it with your own reasonings and justifications. You don't have the right or the justification to insinuate that a review, or informative post is stating that you MUST buy a product.

My intention with starting this thread was to ADVISE those who are currently in the market for saws of TWO well-known and advertised brands that are currently in the news, that they might want to hold off and evaluate a NEW saw that will be released in the summer... one that the Field Testers have seen to have GREAT promise and could sway those who are in the market to reconsider their current thinking.

Make your own points. Don't ASSUME that you know what my intention was or is.

Neal Clayton

04-07-2009, 8:47 PM

Neal, a hot dog will not activate the break because it is moist.

Flesh is a good conductor of electricity. A hot dog, being flesh, will trigger the break because it is a good conductor
Wood, as long as you didn’t just pull it out of the pool, will not conduct enough electricity to triger the break.

That being said, if you did need to cut something that you think may triger the saw, you can:
1. Test the material by touching it to the blade. The control panel will blink if it detected it
2. Run the saw in bypass mode. This is handy if you have to cut a lot of hot dogs

pine sap like all organic liquids, including human blood and soft tissue or hot dog soft tissue, is mostly water. the water is the conductor.

i don't have anything against people buying safety devices, more power to them.

however we don't need 3 threads on the first two pages of this forum one of them being a "IF YOU DON'T BUY THIS YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG" about it.

Ron Bott

04-07-2009, 9:02 PM

either way, if the sawstop brake can trigger on the moisture from a hot dog i'm sure it can trigger on a sap pocket in yellow pine, so i'll never own one. good idea, not so good implementation imo.

The Sawstop braking device is not related to moisture content of the product it is cutting.

Dan Friedrichs

04-07-2009, 9:05 PM

pine sap like all organic liquids, including human blood and soft tissue or hot dog soft tissue, is mostly water. the water is the conductor.
.

There are several organic liquids that do not conduct.

The chances of accidentally setting off the brake from some sap in dry wood are very, very low.

I, for one, appreciated the OP's advice...

Tom Godley

04-07-2009, 10:04 PM

These SawStop threads are weird -- They are just strange to read.

Is it just me?

Craig Nickles

04-07-2009, 10:27 PM

We're discussing NEW saws... not your used one.

Well Frank...............I happen to be making a point........old or new 3 THOUSAND DOLLARS IS ALOT OF MONEY FOR A SAW WHOMEVER MAKES IT. My point is that it leaves alot of us out in the cold at that price. If ya dont want people discussing their opinions, then dont post something for all to see and discuss in an open forum.

Jim Kountz

04-07-2009, 11:04 PM

Break out the fire hoses boys!! We got a wild one going on here!! LOL

Guy Belleman

04-08-2009, 5:44 AM

I am glad that the starter of this thread is happy with SS, as others are. But again I like having a choice, free choice, as others do. Ever since SS came out, the developer and company has been trying to get their patent to become the standard on all saws, by even filing a petition with the Consumer Product Safety Commission: http://www.cpsc.gov/LIBRARY/FOIA/foia03/brief/tablesaw2.pdf

If you want to review the entire 93 page CPSC report back to the petition, it can be found at several locations, one being: http://www.scribd.com/doc/1732844/Consumer-Product-Safety-tablesaw

It is interesting to note that injury statistics quoted are estimates, not actual figures. Of course, that could lead to whole other discussion.

As the Commission states, the blade brake might be a good idea. They also say, on page 24, that any requirement would set as performance requirments that could be met in a number of ways. Perhaps, not the SS system, but by other systems yet to be developed.

In the Commission's report there is actually a second implementation that is going into effect, the riving knife. I have not owned or operated a saw with a riving knife, but from what I have read, it is a good item to have. So, I have decided that my next saw, to be purchased in the next month, will have a riving knife. Still it not going to be a SS. But, now that some of the new saws have riving knives, maybe that is a good thing that came out of the SS petition.

In my life, I have seen a lot of my choices eliminated by supposed safety enthusiasts. Most would make all of my toys super safe, or remove the toy from the market, but never ensure that I am properly trained in the use of each toy. And that type of safety doesn't matter whether it is a SS, Unisaw, or PM2000. Not sure what the best way to go, but I am sure it not forcing, or pushing SS upon us.

Again, I hope the SS advocates can allow us our own opinions and choices, and not force them upon us with further petitions to the Consumer Safety Product Commission.

Bill Blackburn

04-08-2009, 8:28 AM

I will stop and do a looky to but other than that I cannot say. I still look at the cost, even if $3K means $3400+ with tax and delivery. It remains to rich for my blood for the amount of time it's in use here.
Nice looking saw tho, really pretty.
I value my fingers but .... just to rich a luxury for me I'm afraid. If I could get it free I surely will make the room:)

Frank Trinkle

04-08-2009, 8:37 AM

Karl Brogger

04-08-2009, 8:38 AM

These SawStop threads are weird -- They are just strange to read.

Is it just me?

Nope, not just you.

I don't like the idea of the SawStop simply because it breeds complacency. Of the "I can't cut off my finger, why should I be carefull?" variation. Where as consciously not putting yourself in a position to lose a digit is always the best way to do things whether in woodworking or life. Its hard to cut off a finger if it never touches the blade. I seriously doubt there is a respectable number of tablesaw related injuries that weren't immediatly followed with the thought "I shouldn't have.....", or were completly avoidable with just a bit of fore thought.

How ever in a high school setting Its probably the best route. Kids, especially teenagers, are habitually stupid. If you want to spend your money on a gizmo, more power to ya.

Frank Trinkle

04-08-2009, 9:07 AM

Nope, not just you.

I don't like the idea of the SawStop simply because it breeds complacency. Of the "I can't cut off my finger, why should I be carefull?" variation. Where as consciously not putting yourself in a position to lose a digit is always the best way to do things whether in woodworking or life. Its hard to cut off a finger if it never touches the blade. I seriously doubt there is a respectable number of tablesaw related injuries that weren't immediatly followed with the thought "I shouldn't have.....", or were completly avoidable with just a bit of fore thought.

With all due respect, that argument doesn't hold water. It is used everytime a new safety feature is added to many things.

For example, in my own occupation as a helicopter pilot, the same argument was used when the FAA certified full navigational and control Autopilots in advanced helicopters. Am I more complacent about flying because I now have an automatic "co-pilot"? NOT!

Do you drive more complacently because you're required to wear a seat belt and have air bags?

Are you more complacent because you're required to wear a helmet on a motorcycle (and bicycles in some areas).

Will you be more complacent if you buy a new saw with a mandated riving knife, or when using a blade guard?

Have you banged your head into your garage door more often since they mandated that doors automatically retract if sensing an unplanned stop... and added infrared obstruction sensors?

The idea that a new safety feature will cause complacency just doesn't bear out in practice. (With perhaps the sole exception of the story about the woman with a new motor home who was using her first ever cruise control and then left the driver's seat to make a cup of coffee! :eek: )

Philip Rodriquez

04-08-2009, 9:37 AM

Frank hit it on the nose. Sure, I feel a little safer... but I find that I am actually more aware of what I'm sliding by the blade. One small slip and you could be replacing a blade ($110), a brake ($70), and my thong (purchased used for $1.00). That's $181.00, plus tax :D

Chip Lindley

04-08-2009, 9:39 AM

INATTENTION or BAD PRACTICE causes the most accidents, regardless of which machine is involved. The Table Saw is only ONE among many machines in a shop! Every operation includes some *calculated risk*!

In numbers, I wonder how many Bandsaw accidents? Router accidents? Drill Press accidents? Jointer accidents? compare with Table Saw accidents? Hmm...

NEW safety technology comes at a High Price! IMHO, it is a double-edged sword! Including the ability to stop a machine dead in it's tracks may be a new door which swings both ways! Our society has Dumbed Down increasingly, expecting *technology* to do IT ALL for them! They have no need to understand how something works in order to use it! *GUT FEELING* or *6th SENSE* are archaic terms relegated to by-gone years when men and women *Flew By The Seat Of Their Pants*!

Knowing that one cannot possibly receive a major injury will LULL some into a false sense of security, relieving the operator of his responsibility to Learn The Machine and Master it! After all, nothings gonna happen! RIIIIIGHT!

Doug Mason

04-08-2009, 9:51 AM

If I could afford it--I would get it. But not for the saftey feature per se.

I fall into Chip's way of thinking--if one is prone to an accident on the tablesaw, what about everything else? Personally, I am more worried about a bandsaw accident than a tablesaw accident. And what about dust--for most of us that is more dangerous than the tablesaw.

Brent Ring

04-08-2009, 10:18 AM

...If you have been contemplating purchasing one of those saws, you would do yourself a great favor by WAITING until this summer when the new SawStop is released to the public.

Those of us who have been field testing are OVERWHELMED by not only the fit and finish, but by the functionality, ease of assembly, and the included accessories. It is one GREAT saw and is going to probably outsell the others by a large margin. PLUS... you will get SawStops patented safety brake system.

Don't end up with buyer's remorse until you've had a chance to see, or play with this new saw when released this summer.

Am I less of a woodworker or person, or wrong, because I may or may not not have the budget, or choose to spend my hard-earned woodworking dollars differently, or on another technology besides the SS? That is certainly the feeling I get when reading some of these SS threads.

I would love to hear more of the details of the tech, and the projects that you are finishing faster with it, or getting smoother cuts, faster blades changes, whatever your percieved advantages are. Ultimately, if it is nothing more than the cool braking system, then lets say that and call it good!

Chip Lindley

04-08-2009, 10:19 AM

With all due respect, Frank, YOU ARE A PROFESSIONAL! you THINK like a professional! You are trained and licensed to pilot a helicopter! There is no *competency* test given to own and operate a table saw! (and there are some really inept *pseudo-woodworkers* out there!) THIS is the market which SawStop (IMO) targets even MORE than schools or commercial shops with employee liability!

One must wonder how many curious SS users will *DO* the hot dog test to show all their friends, then balk at buying a pricy replacement cartridge! (just a friendly reminder to replace those air bags after an Oops! False Alarm!) *chuckle*!!

Robert Strebler

04-08-2009, 10:55 AM

I will be buying a SS in the near (within 2 years) future. Medical bills alone would cost far more than the saw if I were to screw up.

It's a premium saw at a premium price and as such, I would expect a quality saw. However, it does offer something that no other manufacturers do at this time. My digits are more valuable than a chunk of cast iron and steel.

I'm happy that they are making a cabinet saw in the price range of the Uni and PM 2000, which I would imagine SS envisions as it's competition for this model.

Chris Friesen

04-08-2009, 10:58 AM

Personally, I am more worried about a bandsaw accident than a tablesaw accident.

While it still has its own risks, the bandsaw is safer for a number of reasons:

1) The blade is much narrower, so warped stock is less likely to bind.
2) The force of the cut is straight down into the table--there's no chance of kickback.
3) If you keep the blade guides down near the surface of the wood like you're supposed to, there's a relatively small area of exposed blade. The most risk is at the end of the cut, and you can usually use a pushstick or hold the stock at some distance from the blade.

John Thompson

04-08-2009, 11:03 AM

I have to agree with Guy.. Karl and Chip on many being "lulled" into thinking you can't be injured on a TS because you have a blade break to avoid cut and a riving knife to avoid kick-back. The blade break is a great feature for those that don't appear to respect the saw nor will avoid performing task with it that allow your hands to get too close to the blade.

A riving knife is one aid in helping avoid kick-back but... so is a splitter. But... those items alone cannot totally eliminate kick-back which can injure you. A blade break has no bearing on kick-back at all. If you want to avoid both amputation and kick-back.. install a power feed which will conquer both.

In lieu of waiting for someone to invent a blade-break as they did several years ago now, I optioned to get started WW'ing in 1972 before the fact. But.. I also optioned to listen to what I was told by my HS shop instructor about practicing proper safety procedures and using proper safety features such as feather-boards... shields.. and custom push-sticks. Since that day.. I have added crown guards and a short fence for ripping. And as I was instructed in 1964... never cross the lane of a spiinning blade while it is still in motion.

Frankly... I'm glad I didn't lose 34 years of experience waiting for the blade break to be un-vieled ceremonously before I purchased a TS. I was in a local cabinet shop who opted to replace 2 TS's with SS blade breaks for insurance premium reductions about two weeks ago. I asked two of the employee's how they liked the saw. Excellent saw and we don't have to worry about injury having a blade break was the consensus of both I asked.

I noticed that both SS's did not have the riving knife installed.. no feather-boards were used as they took too much time to set up according to them when I ask if they were ever used.. no shields and no dust control. I didn't say a word to the two gentleman as it was not really my responsibility to do so.

I walked out thinking I don't have a blade break and probably never will. I walked out having been "gut smacked" on 5 occasions with kick-back as everything short of power feeds IMO cannot totally eliminate kick-back. I walked out thinking the same thing I did when I entered... I must respect the saw.. I must continue to use disciplined safety procedures and devices.. and still remain aware of the fact the saw can still bite me if I abandon discipline and procedure.

I walked out thinking that even without a blade break.. I was at a much lower risk of getting injured than those two gentleman who had been "lulled" into thinking they were no longer invinceable because they now had one.

I think the blade break is a great idea.. but I also think it falls far short of the Holy Grail that will lead us to the promised land. You can't replace basic, sound safety with high tech regardless of how much you pretend it is no longer relevant.

Ya'll have a good and safe day in the shop as I intend to do...

Sarge..

Dan T Jones

04-08-2009, 11:04 AM

I had to go back and read Franks post that started all this.

All he said is that if you are contemplating a new cabinet saw purchase here is something you should consider.

Yes, the reaction to Sawstop is a little strange.

Stephen Edwards

04-08-2009, 12:21 PM

I'm with Sarge on this one. I've had two minor accidents in nearly 40 years of working with woodworking machines. Both times the accidents were caused because I became careless for a moment. My rule is to say to myself every time I turn on a machine: I can lose a digit or worse while doing this operation. I will be careful and follow safety procedures.

The SS are very nice saws. Unless someone gives me one as a gift, slim chance of that :rolleyes:, I doubt that I'll ever own one. I simply wouldn't pay the difference in price for what amounts to a safety feature that is nice, but not necessary to work safely.

To each their own. It's nice to have choices.

Paul Ryan

04-08-2009, 12:49 PM

I can't understand how a thread letting folks know that a new SS that is very nice and more competativly priced is comming out. Has turned into this again. For those of you that don't want it great then it is not for you. But the people that buy these saws are not ignorant kids right out of college, or high school kids, or ignorant people. Maybe some of aplies to emplyees in a cabinet shop, but they are not the ones dooling out 3k, 4k, 5k on a table saw. Those of us that have chose to do this work hard for our money. And now there are those calling us complacent because we chose to buy a safer saw. This is just ludicris, I think sawstop PURCHASERS are probably safer woodworkers than many others. 3k on a table saw is a hell of a lot of money, and I did not come to this conclusion easily. I had a very nice SC saw that I used very safely. I have never had a kickback in 15 years of woodworking as a hobby, I have never cut my self. In the past 14 years I have only cut a few hundred board ft of lumber a year, using a friends shop. The past 2 years my wife and I have become finacially stabile enough to be able to purchase some nice tools. But the insinutaion that I am a less safe now because I have purchase a SS is ridiculous.

SS makes some beautiful machines that IMHO are 2nd to none in quality, and build. And thankfuly I am fortunate to be able to afford the machine. If you cannot afford one hopefully that will change. If you can afford one great that is your opinion, but don't start telling us that buy them we are wasting our money.

This is so stupid how a thread, about a SS, or granite, or festool, can turn out to be your an idiot if you do or if you don't.

Karl Brogger

04-08-2009, 12:51 PM

Brake, not break. I hate to be the spellins police but I confuse easily.

Do you drive more complacently because you're required to wear a seat belt and have air bags?

Probably, if there was a steel spike that was sure to impale me sticking out of the center of the steering wheel I'd be a bit more careful.

Are you more complacent because you're required to wear a helmet on a motorcycle (and bicycles in some areas).
You dang right I am. I don't pull near the risks while on the street without a helmet, vs on a track wearing full leathers.

Will you be more complacent if you buy a new saw with a mandated riving knife, or when using a blade guard?
I can't honestly answer that, I pull all that crap off and tossed it in the dumpster on the last two saws I bought. Mostly because I don't want to take them on and off a dozen times a day.

Have you banged your head into your garage door more often since they mandated that doors automatically retract if sensing an unplanned stop... and added infrared obstruction sensors?
I make up for it hitting my head on just about everything else. Really bad sense of where my head actually is. If I had a nickel for everytime I smashed my head on either the install trailer door or an upper cabinet.:D

The idea that a new safety feature will cause complacency just doesn't bear out in practice. (With perhaps the sole exception of the story about the woman with a new motor home who was using her first ever cruise control and then left the driver's seat to make a cup of coffee! :eek: )

or following the gps into a lake, finding out McD's coffee is actually hot. Yes there are morons in this world. A long time ago they used to just accidentally kill themselves, hopefully before spreading their defective genes back into the pool. Society is slowly gearing itself towards the lowest common denominator. Children should be watched over and cared for, not adults.

Stephen Edwards

04-08-2009, 1:20 PM

This is so stupid how a thread, about a SS, or granite, or festool, can turn out to be your an idiot if you do or if you don't.

Perhaps I missed something. I've been following this thread with interest and I don't recall any posts where someone called, or even suggested, that someone may be an idiot for purchasing the new SS in question.

I think this thread is just an interesting discussion.

Cliff Rohrabacher

04-08-2009, 2:06 PM

Perhaps I missed something. I've been following this thread with interest and I don't recall any posts where someone called, or even suggested, that someone may be an idiot for purchasing the new SS in question.

Yah huh?

I have seen threads on that other inferior wood working forum that devolved into little more than name calling. One side lined up on the "safety" angle and the other lined up opposing any form of "Nanny" state or manufacturing forcing the evil safety measures on you.
They can get down right angry about it.

I think it's all silly. If you want to pay for the sense of safety you get from being told that the machine can't hurt you then, go for it. I am disinclined to believe that any one can really get lulled into a sense of complacency.

That might happen with fly by wire computer assist aircraft navigation and anti lock brakes but then, the pilot or driver actually uses those items all the time. You are supposed to depend on them to save your life when landing in cross gusts or hard breaking on the highway. No one is selling saws into which you are supposed to be shoving your hands as a regular course of conduct.

I can't bring myself to believe that there is any one (unless he's barking mad) who will deliberately shove his hand into the blade - - just to see it stop. Woo Hoo~!! And based on that, I rather suspect that no one will ever lose their respect for the spinning blade on the sole thesis that the Saw Stop is supposed to shut down and protect you.

Robert Strebler

04-08-2009, 2:38 PM

I rather suspect that no one will ever lose their respect for the spinning blade on the sole thesis that the Saw Stop is supposed to shut down and protect you.

Very true. However, if you were to mess up and get your finger, hand, or arm on the blade it will stop and that's worth a lot if it ever happens.

Neal Clayton

04-08-2009, 4:06 PM

The Sawstop braking device is not related to moisture content of the product it is cutting.

their faq says it is (http://www.sawstop.com/support/cabinet/faq.php)

There are several organic liquids that do not conduct.

The chances of accidentally setting off the brake from some sap in dry wood are very, very low.

I, for one, appreciated the OP's advice...

yet we see threads about woods with high moisture contents triggering the brake every few months.

Chip Lindley

04-08-2009, 4:48 PM

WTG Karl! My kinda Guy! ;-)

Neal Clayton

04-11-2009, 11:58 AM

I can't understand how a thread letting folks know that a new SS that is very nice and more competativly priced is comming out. Has turned into this again.

"This is just ludicris, I think sawstop PURCHASERS are probably safer woodworkers than many others."

"SS makes some beautiful machines that IMHO are 2nd to none in quality, and build. And thankfuly I am fortunate to be able to afford the machine."

"If you cannot afford one hopefully that will change."

"This is so stupid how a thread, about a SS, or granite, or festool, can turn out to be your an idiot if you do or if you don't."

yes it's stupid that these threads are the way they are. wanna know why? look at what you wrote.

a) you start off with a sales pitch-type comment
b) you say people who don't buy your pitch are somehow inferior to those who do
c) you declare the product you're pitching to be arbitrarily superior to all others
d) you try to belittle naysayers as if you can afford something they can't
e) you close up with a straw man argument

Paul Ryan

04-11-2009, 1:04 PM

a) you start off with a sales pitch-type comment
b) you say people who don't buy your pitch are somehow inferior to those who do
c) you declare the product you're pitching to be arbitrarily superior to all others
d) you try to belittle naysayers as if you can afford something they can't
e) you close up with a straw man argument

There is no sales pitch, buy
what you want to! There your fingers not mine!

I in no way believe anyone is inferior to others, except for those that cannot see the saftey advantages of a SS.

I DO believe the SS to be superior to all others in it's class!

I belittle no one I have come from very humble beginnings.

It is a valid argument how can new products always be determined to be a POS by those that are to ignorant to try.

John Thompson

04-11-2009, 8:04 PM

[quote=Paul Ryan;1105612]
I in no way believe anyone is inferior to others, except for those that cannot see the saftey advantages of a SS.

I DO believe the SS to be superior to all others in it's class!
*****
I see the advantage of a blade break for many and could not argue that. I also see the cost that put it into a category on it's own and probably not affordable by many as not all spend a great deal of time in a shop nor can afford the best of best machinery. I cannont justify the break itself as I already a 5 HP TS.. I use safety devices and I use safety procedures.

I also see the dis-advantage in my case as I change blades on an average of 5 times a day 6 days a week. From what I read you have to do some procedure when you switch. I also saw the video of the break going off. That in itself is quite an impact and I question how that will affect bearings.. arbors.. arbor bolts and trunnions in the long haul. Not to mention the cost of a new blade and break device.

Now.. I ask this of the OP and did not get an answer. He also stated the saw was superior to Others I believe. You state in it's class..

First.. which saw.... as there is the original and now the lower cost one. Just what other saws fall into the class of whichever one you're talking about as these are two different saws as I am forturnate to have been over both and used both. A Chevy Silverado is a Chevy.. an S-10 is a Chevy.. but they are two different trucks under the name Chevrolet.

And as I asked the original poster and didn't get an answer.. what makes is superior? Is it just the break or are the components superior in a side by side comparison. Again.. I am forturnate to have made the comparisons side by side on the new saw from SS.. the original SS and the offering from Delta and PM. So.. I already know how the components stack up.

I would just like to know why the saw is superior as stated here without any explanation of "why" it is superior. My grand-child is much better looking than your grand-child.. I haven't seen your's but... I just know that is the case. Get the drift...

Regards...

Sarge..

Paul Ryan

04-11-2009, 9:46 PM

Sarge,

I am not the OP but I will respond some what.

I did say I believe it superior to any other in its class. Since I have written that I have wondered to my self what is in its class. You can say the SC offerings, except for the deluxe versions I believe those to be heavier duty trunions. The grizzly saws the 1023 and I cannot comment on the 0690 because I have not seen one. Then there is the late model uni's like the X5's, but those arn't being produced any more. I have not seen the new uni, so I do not know about that. Now the new SS really isn't in the same class as those saws because it costs double.

Price range you are talking about the new uni and the PM2000. However I believe the trunion and the cabinet to be more heavy duty on the mustard then the new SS, so is that really the same class, maybe not.

I can tell you this the fit and finish on the new SS is 2nd to none. However fit and finish doesn't cut wood. The new saw is extremly easy to adjust. In my book that is important because over time any saw will need an occasionaly adjustment. The wings are machined well enough that most of us didn't need to shim them. No one has complained about pits in the cast iron, that you hear about from time to time on other machines. The integrated mobile base is very easy to use, much more than the PM. This saw is much stronger than the SC saw I had. The powder coated cabinet is much more durable than paint. The dust collection that uses a shroud is better than the SC saw I had, and better than the grizzlies I have used. The lift and tilt mechanisms are much smoother on this PCS saw.

In my opinion this is a home users table saw. I believe it would hold up in other environments as well. But it is built for home use. So in that case we are not comparing it to industrial machines. But this saw is aweful expensive compared to other machines that home users buy. I think with the extra $1800 you are paying. For that $$ you get a better all around machine with a blade brake. For those home users that are thinking about a PM2000 or new UNI, this saw for the extra $300-500 is in the same class. Most home users, and home business will never wear out the internal componets on a PM saw, a new Uni, or this saw.

I have been critical about the fence on this saw. Since that time I have been able to adjust it to my liking. It slides very smoothly, locks down tightly, and doesn't deflect under a resonable amount of force. But I do still like the SC industrial fence better. I do think the SS fence is equal to the recent bies offerings, and the accu fence.

For what most home users, or home businesses are going to put a saw through I believe this saw to be just a little bit better suited for their use. But that is for them to decide. My wife and I (with some encouragement from her) felt the extra $$ for this saw was worth it. I do not like being told by others that since I own a SS I am an un safe woodworker. I had a long conversation with a teacher the other day that teaches woods to high schoolers. His school just purchased a new ICS saw. But he said the same thing that I have always felt. Just because this saw has a brake I am still scared of the large sharpe hunk of metal spining around. I don't have any plans of changing my habits that have protected me for years. The brake on this saw, is for that once in a lifetime chance that would change my life forever.

John Thompson

04-11-2009, 11:07 PM

Paul.. thanks for giving some en-sight into your findings to go with the normal bravado of getting a new saw. That's really all I was asking the OP to do.. just explain how he came to the conclussion of why after stating it was better made. And I was basically referring to the upper $2K range when asking for a comparison.

You cannot compare $1 K - $1.5 K saws to a $3 K saw or at least shouldn't be able to. But.. as you noted I have the SC 5 HP Industrial and I will match the trunnion size and mounting.. tolerances all day long to the $5 K SS.. much less the $3 K version. It doesn't have a riving knife but.. for $1800 the components are second to none and that includes the Big Boy SS. That also goes for fit and finish as the cast iron is mirror smooth and almost dead flat.

If prompted I will give my opinion on the comparison of the new Uni-saw and PM 2000 to the new SS from what I saw and measured. But.. I just got up from the shop 11 PM hanging doors on a desk cabinet and I'm beat. Going to parents-in-law tomorrow 75 mile one way so... I'm going to bed and any further ado about this discussion can just wait. :)

Regards... and thanks for your view of the saw and why you view it that way.. BTW.. did you get the new and lower priced SS or the Big Boy as I refer to it?

Sarge..

Greg Pavlov

04-12-2009, 9:09 AM

.....Now some are awed by the safety features of SS. I am more awed by good woodworkers using sleds, guards, finger boards, hold downs, push sticks, etc. I hope the SS devotees can accept that others may not have the same opinion as they. I have always thought that good technique, planning and training is a better standard, and more proactive, than making a saw naive proof. ...
That's true, but given the choice (and availability of/willingness to spend the funds), having both would be ideal, IMO. My choice will probably come down to the contractor version of the SS or a "hybrid" from someone else. Right now I think that I'll go with the first.

The new Grizzly saws with riving knives for only $1250 with free shipping are much more appealing than a $3K SS. And, yes, I have seen the SS at shows. Sorry, I am not impressed with the SS, and I am not sure the Cadillac analogy is valid either.
I suspect that if SS wasn't out there we wouldn't be seeing riving knives on the Grizzlys (and the Grizzlys *are* good values & decent saws, I'm not arguing with that!)

Greg Pavlov

04-12-2009, 9:27 AM

Perhaps I missed something. I've been following this thread with interest and I don't recall any posts where someone called, or even suggested, that someone may be an idiot for purchasing the new SS in question. .....
You're right, but what I do see in every thread about SS is the claim that people who buy SSs do so because they don't want to take the time & effort to be careful and work with respect for what a saw can do to the operator.

Paul Ryan

04-12-2009, 10:21 AM

Sarge,

I own the new sawstop professional saw. The lighter duty saw. I would like to hear your opion as well.

John Thompson

04-12-2009, 11:24 AM

Sarge,

I own the new sawstop professional saw. The lighter duty saw. I would like to hear your opion as well.

The fit and finish is as you state.. excellent. The trunnions are no more robust than the Uni-saw or PM 2000 and BTW.. the trunnions and build on the PM 2000 are not as robust as the older PM 66's. That's why after the 2000 came out and the 66's were still being built.. the PM 66 was priced around $200-$300 more than the 2000 even with a riving knife.

With the break the professional has an edge IMO as many would like to have it but not many over-all are going to pay the premium they have to with the older model. The majority of people in need of a TS cannot dump 5 K into one when they don't have a jointer.. planer.. etc. etc.. and not even sure just starting out if they will stay in this hobby long enough to justify a price as such for just one machine. Even though the older model made by Gee-tech in Taiwan is much more robust even without the break.. it is a wallet breaker for any new to WW or even most that are not when a very good saw can be had for less.

So.. my thoughts are if someone "is" going to drop 3 K into a new saw.. the professional seems to be a rather vaible choice in that class as it appears it can deliver the same results as the competitors and has a blade break to boot. But.. I still question the impact that break creates on components when it goes off. At the moment just replace the $78 (I think someone mentioned that price) and an expensive blade.

I question that on the more expensive one which is much more robust than the professional so... just how well will it hold up after numerous high impacts as I saw demonstrated on video before the expense may go beyond just the break and blade? I can't really say for sure this will happen but I can certainly speculate it may. Only time will tell as Time is the real Test under actual usage.

Regards...

Sarge..

Grant Vanbokklen

04-12-2009, 11:32 AM

Now some are awed by the safety features of SS. I am more awed by good woodworkers using sleds, guards, finger boards, hold downs, push sticks, etc. I hope the SS devotees can accept that others may not have the same opinion as they. I have always thought that good technique, planning and training is a better standard, and more proactive, than making a saw naive proof.

I agree. I think the Saw Stop is an internet forum weekend warrior with extra cash groupie thing.

I would seriously take a look at the Powermatic and new Unisaw and NOT WAIT, but learn how to use a saw safely.

mreza Salav

04-12-2009, 11:50 AM

Once the other companies realize they are loosing a large chunk of their market to SS (which I suspect will happen gradually) they will start developing a similar feature for their saws. Or it becomes mandatory by law (just like riving knife has been). These may take a bit longer than a few years but I think at least one of the two will come. Either way, I think it will be creating competition and driving the prices down a bit; a good outcome for users.

Paul Ryan

04-12-2009, 12:08 PM

I question that on the more expensive one which is much more robust than the professional so... just how well will it hold up after numerous high impacts as I saw demonstrated on video before the expense may go beyond just the break and blade? I can't really say for sure this will happen but I can certainly speculate it may. Only time will tell as Time is the real Test under actual usage.

Regards...

Sarge..

I too wonder how much pounding from the brake mechanism a machine will take. I really don't plan on the brake in my saw ever going off, and to be honest if it goes off 2 twice in the time I own the saw that is 2 times too many. But the technology is there for a reason. The price to be back up and running, is about $70 plus a blade or $90 plus a dado set. And it takes less than an extra minute to change out the cartridge. I thought at 1st it would be a real pain changing from regular blade to the dado, vue to having to change the cartridge and set the blade spacing. Well the blade spacing when I change doesn't need to be changed (fortunatly all of the blades I run are the same size) and it is real quick to change the cartridge.

I can tell you this. Inside the saw there is a hard soild rubber bumber that absorbs some of the impact if and when the brake goes off. There really has to be some kind of stop. It is kind of like a frame mounted over load bumber on the suspension of most vehicles.

I agree with your assement of this new saw. And I think that is what sawstop was shooting for. A direct competitor to the Uni, and PM2000, price range and construction.

Frank Trinkle

04-12-2009, 12:10 PM

I think it's important to note that the price is a GUESSTIMATE only at this time. The final pricing won't be set until this summer's release.

My speculation is that SS will probably price this saw DIRECTLY against the 2000 and the Unisaw... so whatever price they come in at with rails and fence is likely to be about the same price as the PCS.

Additionally, we have yet to see the overhead dust collection system that will be a standard feature on the PCS when released. There will be both upper and lower DC and the claim is for 99% collection, a claim that I don't doubt considering that SS has not exaggerated any other claims.

Ed Calkins

04-12-2009, 12:17 PM

Folks, a number of us on this board have been field testing the upcoming SawStop Cabinet Saw (called the "Professional Cabinet Saw"). It is going to be marketed directly in competition with the new Delta Unisaw and Powermatic PM2000 series.

If you have been contemplating purchasing one of those saws, you would do yourself a great favor by WAITING until this summer when the new SawStop is released to the public.

Those of us who have been field testing are OVERWHELMED by not only the fit and finish, but by the functionality, ease of assembly, and the included accessories. It is one GREAT saw and is going to probably outsell the others by a large margin. PLUS... you will get SawStops patented safety brake system.

Don't end up with buyer's remorse until you've had a chance to see, or play with this new saw when released this summer. Three words describe this TS:

"WHAT A SAW!!"

Well I have been both surprised and amused following this thread -- almost like republicans and democrats trying to reach common ground. I should know better but I thought I would add my two cents to the discussion as a different point of view -- as most of you are very experienced and know what you are talking about -- my view is the observation of a novice:
1) I am setting up a new shop to change my occassional ww to more of a hobby now that I am retired. I wasn't sure I was even going to get a TS but the SawStop PCS offer pushed me over the edge and I purchased one on the test site discount.
2) I can see how some other cabinet saw owners can get a little put off by the first post as (while I'm sure it wasn't intended) there is an implication that a PCS is an obivious better choice than the other brands mentioned. "testers overwhelmed", will outsell other saws by a great margin, etc. etc.
3) So far I really like the PCS, however I don't know that it is any better than a PM2000 or other good saws, they all look good in the showroom to me -- the shiney black finish is nice but probably doesn't do much for the cut quality. However quality is clearly a focus of SawStop which is good.
4) I can't agree that it has great ease of assembly -- there is more assembly than I thought there would be (can't compare to other saws however), and it was not really difficult as I am a pretty good technician but I can see the table adjustments etc. could be challenging to some --I guess it all depends on how close to "flat" you want to get. I can only compare it to my minimax MM16 bandsaw (which I acknowledge is a much simpler machine) which was much easier to setup.
5)I am a little concerned that some of the more experienced users that think so highly of this saw are already changing out the fence and mitre gauge etc. -- I hope I can successfully use what came with this costly machine.
6) I do admit that I was willing to pay a small premium for the blade brake as I hope to get my grandkids exposed to some basic woodworking and this saw over the next several years --- safety of course will be the focus and they won't even hear about the blade brake technology.

So, in summary, I really like the PCS and my decision so far. I might have gone for the industrial model but would have delayed my table saw decision if this PCS opportunity didn't come along. The SawStop support has been great (as one would expect from a test program). But to say I am overwhelmed and suggest that everyone else should put all other purchase plans on hold would be too strong of a statement for me to make at this time.
Ed

Greg Pavlov

04-13-2009, 12:30 AM

.......
I make up for it hitting my head on just about everything else. ....
Same here. I figured that by the time I got to 60 (yrs, not mph) I'd have gotten past that, but no dice, still smack it into something at least once a week AND, since I've lost all the hair on top, it gets more painful and less pretty every time I do.

Greg Pavlov

04-13-2009, 12:33 AM

their faq says it is (http://www.sawstop.com/support/cabinet/faq.php)
yet we see threads about woods with high moisture contents triggering the brake every few months.
Isn't there something on/with the saw that allows you to test for that before trying to cut the wood?

Joe Jensen

04-13-2009, 1:01 AM

It's funny how often the old arguements against safety devices play out. The main arguements we hear on this forum;
1) False sense of security
2) this only solves one risk factor
3) too expensive

These same arguements were played out around every auto safety enhancement, seat belts, folding steering wheels, padding in the dash, ABS, etc. Blah blah blah.

Haven't you guys heard of incremental improvements? Say there are 20 dangerous areas in the shop. Eliminating one makes the worker safer.

I suspect that the dissentors in this arguement fall mainlu into two camps.
1) Can't afford one so they suck
2) Since they didn't pick Sawstop, sawstop sucks
3) they just like to argue

Maybe all the Sawstop suck posts should be kept in a politics lounge or something. Folks there really like to argue, this would fit right in.

Rick Fisher

04-13-2009, 2:07 AM

I remember when they started making Hockey players wear helmets.. they didnt tell em to just learn how to play the game properly.. :rolleyes:

Cody Colston

04-13-2009, 3:08 AM

I don't think there's any doubt that the Sawstop is 1. A very good saw and 2. A safer "American-Style" table saw.

What I get tired of is some (not all) of Sawstop users trying to convince everyone in the woodworking world that they should also have a Sawstop. Hey, WE KNOW ALL ABOUT IT. Good grief, every person on this forum who has bought one has touted it's superiority here... enough already.

I could counter with the argument that a European slider is a safer saw than the Sawstop since your hands don't have to come anywhere near the blade, thus all you Sawstop owners should run out and buy a $10,000 Felder or Minimax or whatever. You don't want to pay that much money? Well, how much is a finger or a hand worth? Haven't you ever heard of incremental safety? Even if a Minimax slider is only slightly safer than a Sawstop, that would make your whole shop safer...for only $10,000. After all, it's only money we're talking about. Besides, European-style sliders will probably become mandatory soon, anyway. Remember, you didn't want to wear a seatbelt until it became mandatory and look how many lives it's saved. Even hockey players didn't want to wear helmets until they were made mandatory by the NHL. You Sawstop people need to wake up and realize this is the 21st. century.

That's exactly the kind of rhetoric I read every time a Sawstop thread comes up. If you like it, fine, enjoy. But quit trying to convince the rest of us to buy one. It's almost like you Sawstop owners need reassurance that you did the right thing in buying one.

Larry Edgerton

04-13-2009, 9:08 AM

Greg Pavlov

04-13-2009, 9:15 AM

Neal Clayton

04-13-2009, 9:48 AM

Rod Sheridan

04-13-2009, 10:28 AM

This has been an interesting thread, to say the least.

If I were in the market for a new cabinet saw, I would buy the SS simply for the safety feature.

At present I own a General 650 which is a better saw than I'm a woodworker. This is probably true for all the more expensive saws.

Maybe it's even for true for the $200 saws....Oh Oh, did I just admit that my skills are worse than a $200 saw?:eek:

I always use a guard on the saw, I installed an Excalibur overarm guard with a Merlin splitter when the saw was new.

I gave up performing operations on the TS that couldn't be performed with a guard, such as tenoning. The shaper does that so well, and safely with a tenon hood.

The secondary safety of the SS would probably not yield as large a safety improvement for me, as it would for people who occasionally remove their guard.

My only complaint with the SS is that it's only available on a cabinet saw, something that I wouldn't purchase again.

Now if Felder/MiniMax/Hammer came out with it on a sliding saw, I'd gladly pay the money for improved safety, and capability.

It's nice to see that SS are making different price point saws, it allows the safety technology to be available to many more people, and that's a good thing.

Regards, Rod.

Frank Trinkle

04-13-2009, 10:40 AM

I could counter with the argument that a European slider is a safer saw than the Sawstop since your hands don't have to come anywhere near the blade, thus all you Sawstop owners should run out and buy a $10,000 Felder or Minimax or whatever. You don't want to pay that much money? Well, how much is a finger or a hand worth? Haven't you ever heard of incremental safety? Even if a Minimax slider is only slightly safer than a Sawstop, that would make your whole shop safer...for only $10,000. After all, it's only money we're talking about. Besides, European-style sliders will probably become mandatory soon, anyway. Remember, you didn't want to wear a seatbelt until it became mandatory and look how many lives it's saved. Even hockey players didn't want to wear helmets until they were made mandatory by the NHL. You Sawstop people need to wake up and realize this is the 21st. century.

You have missed the whole point of this thread's beginning. This was not created to be a SawStop zealot thread. And the new PCS is NOT going to cost $10000.

The point is that it WILL be directly comparable in price and size with the PM2000 and the new Delta Unisaw. So for those who are in the market for a table saw in the $2500-$3500 price point range, this is clearly an option that should be evaluated by potential buyers BEFORE committing to another saw... and this one won't be available to the public until this summer. There WILL be those who may buy now, wishing later that they had waited due to features, and other considerations that the PCS offers that they were unaware would be available in short order.

THAT is the intention of this thread. So... please don't put words in our mouths, or ASSUME that the intent is/was to convince people to buy the new PCS.

'nuff said..

Alan Trout

04-13-2009, 11:12 AM

I typically do not get into these discussions but I will give my two cents worth. First I feel I have a unique perspective that many in this discussion may not have. This last fall in a jointer accident I partially severed my middle finger on my right hand. I lost about 1/2" of length and did permanent nerve damage to my index finger and took the tip off my ring finger. I am very lucky it could have been much worse and I am thankful everyday that for the most part I did not loose use of my hand. Was this accident preventable? Without going into all the details maybe but I am not 100% sure. It still sends chills down my spine when I think about it because I can still see the entire accident in slow motion. Ulitmately it was my fault and I take full resposibility for the accident.

I come from a woodworking background, while I am not a professional I have been doing woodworking my entire life. My father was a shop teacher and he was probably harder on me about safety then his students. I also owned a machine shop and worked for a machine tool manufacture as a rep for several years. I undestand machines and machine safety.

For me my accident helped me evaluate my hobby and what I was doing right and wrong. Having a European combo machine with a slider, sawing panels are about as safe as I can get but I still have to do ripping operations. The riving knife is a great feature that I have always used. But I can also see a spot for a blade break cartridge.

I have considered go back to separates and purchasing a SawStop because ripping operations are the primary function I use on a table saw. I could easily use a guided saw such as a Festool TS55 to do my panel cutting. These are just options that I am considering that may or may not ever happen but they are all options worthy of full evaluation.

I begrudge no one for their SawStop purchase. I think they are fabulous saws. I also feel that other saws in the market are just as nice and thankful we have such wide selection of machines that are available at reasonable prices to the hobby consumer. My only heart burn I have every had with SawStop was the petition to the Consurmer Product Safety Commision. This really bothered my sense of fairness and thankful that the outcome came out like it did because it still gives the consumer the option to make their own decsion what is best for them, and not a goverment forced mandate.

I am glad that SawStop is making other saws trying to expand their market share. I am also glad to see other manufactures improving their saws with new fetures and safety devices. Lets all be thankful we have competition in the marketplace because in the end that makes it better for all of us.

Good Luck

Alan

Tim Marks

04-13-2009, 7:15 PM

I agree the SawStop is a Cadillac of table saws. But not everyone can afford a Caddy. Some of us have to be happy with a Chevy. :)
That's funny, because never in my life have I actually wanted a Cadillac. Not just a matter of what I could afford.

And I am not too fond of Chevy either...

Larry Edgerton

04-13-2009, 7:37 PM

That's funny, because never in my life have I actually wanted a Cadillac. Not just a matter of what I could afford.

And I am not too fond of Chevy either...

So does that make my MiniMax a Ferrari? Cool...... ;)

Cody Colston

04-14-2009, 12:14 AM

Never mind.......

Steve Rozmiarek

04-14-2009, 10:06 AM

So does that make my MiniMax a Ferrari? Cool...... ;)

Sweet! I've got a Lamborghini!

One issue that I have with Sawstop technology, is that I like to use a crown guard on my riving knife. Felder and Minimax do this with the shield, as do the Shark guards I think. That extra little feature that makes it impossible for the stock to ride up the back of the blade, along with a good close riving knife, nearly eliminate any chance of a kickback. This system cannot work with the Sawstop, as the crown guard would seriously interfere with the dropping of the blade when a brake trigger occured.

This issue forces the use of floating overhead dust collection/shields, which if done right is fine, but a crown guard they are not.

Everything is a trade off, I like the safety features that came with my Felder better than SS's, because I think that they are less intrusive for better results.

Joe Jensen

04-14-2009, 10:11 AM

Sweet! I've got a Lamborghini!

One issue that I have with Sawstop technology, is that I like to use a crown guard on my riving knife. Felder and Minimax do this with the shield, as do the Shark guards I think. That extra little feature that makes it impossible for the stock to ride up the back of the blade, along with a good close riving knife, nearly eliminate any chance of a kickback. This system cannot work with the Sawstop, as the crown guard would seriously interfere with the dropping of the blade when a brake trigger occured.

This issue forces the use of floating overhead dust collection/shields, which if done right is fine, but a crown guard they are not.

Everything is a trade off, I like the safety features that came with my Felder better than SS's, because I think that they are less intrusive for better results.

I"m not sure what Crown Guard is, but I have a SawStop and the riving knife does not drop when the brake fires. The saw is designed to keep the riving knife where it was before the brake fires. I am using a Shark Guard on the SawStop and I have fired the brake with that guard in place.

Karl Brogger

04-14-2009, 12:17 PM

Looking at the Saw Stop website, the dust extraction does look to be a really nice setup.

Dave Avery

04-14-2009, 1:17 PM

Looking at the Saw Stop website, the dust extraction does look to be a really nice setup.

Karl,

It's works very well. At first I was a little disappointed in the dust collection...... until I realized that my DC system was in the "off" position :)

Karl Brogger

04-14-2009, 1:59 PM

Karl,

It's works very well. At first I was a little disappointed in the dust collection...... until I realized that my DC system was in the "off" position :)

LOL, sure.... There is something to be said about the cabinet catching dust as well, vs all of it going into the dust collection. I for one hate emptying the bags, but then again scooping it out by hand then shoveling it off the floor is no peach either.

Steve Rozmiarek

04-14-2009, 10:48 PM

I"m not sure what Crown Guard is, but I have a SawStop and the riving knife does not drop when the brake fires. The saw is designed to keep the riving knife where it was before the brake fires. I am using a Shark Guard on the SawStop and I have fired the brake with that guard in place.

Hmmmm, I stand corrected. I was under the assumption that the riving knife raises with the blade? If not, it's really a splitter, not a riving knife. A true riving knife can be set just a shade under the crown of the arc of the blade, and any adjustment of the height of the blade will be mimicked by the knife. This way you could make dado type cuts with the riving knife installed.

A crown guard can be as simple as this:https://shop.felder-gruppe.at/felder/ext/admin/upload/shop/1587_adetail_big.jpg

The blade is set pretty high here, probably to get full view of the logo, but the shield works as the crown guard here by attaching firmly to the riving knife, and not allowing a board to follow the back of the blade up and forward to cause a kick back. In operation, the shield and blade could be lowered to get the pivot point of the shield closer to the height of the stock. I run mine 1/2" or so higher than my stock thickness usually.

Most of the Euro saws use some system like this, as well as having a "truninon" that does not raise the blade in an arc, so the setting of the height of the riving knife relative to the height of the blade is linear along the range of adjustment.

Other types of crown guards are out there too. If I recall correctly, Sarge uses one that he made.

By the way, in my humble opinion, Felder has the perfect riving knife/guard setup. I really don't think there is room for improvement in this design, and I think it could be adapted to American saws with a little thought. The poly guards cost around $49, and a riving knife from them is $42 ish. With these parts and a little ingenuity, I think a creative guy could make a sweet guard on just about anything.

Paul Ryan

04-14-2009, 11:00 PM

Hmmmm, I stand corrected. I was under the assumption that the riving knife raises with the blade? If not, it's really a splitter, not a riving knife. A true riving knife can be set just a shade under the crown of the arc of the blade, and any adjustment of the height of the blade will be mimicked by the knife. This way you could make dado type cuts with the riving knife installed.

Steve,

The riving knife on the SS does raise and lower with the blade. But I am not able to confirm or deny that it drops when the brake is fired I have not tested that feature and I don't plan on it.

Frank Shannon

04-15-2009, 1:38 AM

They have the new PCS at my Woodcraft. I wasn't that impressed. It looks about the same as the Grizzly G0690 which runs $1250. I like the looks of the Grizzly better. If it didn't have a blade break and the price was $1400 or higher I wouldn't give it a second look.

I've never seen any data that would help me make an educated decision on other than lots of people get hurt on table saws. What's the actual probability that I'll be hurt on a saw with no break and no riving knife. What's the probability that I'll be hurt on a saw it no riving knife? What are the likely injuries?

I've read that there are over 60,000 injuries a year on table saws. How many would there be of all table saws had blade breaks and riving knives? How many would there be if all saws had just riving knives. How many would there be if all table saws had sliding beds?

How many injuries resulted from contact with the blade? How many included no contact with the blade? What are the most tramatic injuries and what caused them? Were there deaths? If so what caused them? Were there disabling injuries? What wer they and what caused them.

In the final analysis the riving knife may will be the most critical piece of safety hardware on a SawStop. Are there any good sources of information or do we simply rely on our impressions?

Frank Trinkle

04-15-2009, 2:08 AM

Frank Shannon

04-15-2009, 7:35 AM

And what Woodcraft would that be that has a new PCS in house? I think you saw either the Industrial Cabinet Saw, or the Contractor. They wouldn't have the PCS since only Field Testers currently have the saw.

It was the PCS, integral castor system, smaller table. It's the Southwest Woodcraft in Houston on Beltway 8 just south of US 59. A run of the mill light cabinet saw with a blade brake. The blade brake adds about $1600 to the price of that saw. More than doubling the price vs. direct competitors.

They have the cabinet saw in their demo area and I've had a chance to cut with it. It too is just run of the mill among full cabinet saws but with a blade brake. Interestingly the blade brake seems cheapest on the cabinet saw. It doesn't bump the price quite as far up as it does on the contractor and the PCS. I don't get it.

Doest the blade brake mech. really cost $1600? Or is it finger extorsion? Hey, it's their saw, whatever the market will bear. Just don't charge that much and come on all sactimonious about it. At that price it's about making money, nothing more, nothing less.