Suggestions for anchoring built-in top

[dan lemkin]

Hi,

I am building a built-in... I fabricated a plywood box based on a template, allowing for about 1/4" slop on each side. I created a face frame out of walnut, and made solid walnut doors.

The doors are anchored with no-mortise hinges (i know... wimp)

I am building drawers out of maple and have some walnut for facing... to go in the middle.

For the top, I was going to re-template and make a cut to fit (less 1/16" on each side ~1.25" thick walnut top. Made from 6/4 glue up with biscuit joinery.

Question and concerns... I had planned on anchoring it all over using pocket screws... as seen in the photos in the picasa album. Will this cause problems with expansion/contraction? Any recommendations for a more successful approach.

Lots of angles, views... so listed in external album. Same project as seen below.

http://picasaweb.google.com/zargnut/BuiltIn?authkey=Gv1sRgCMqt3tLN_bz9iwE&feat=directlink

[Mike Thomas]

Very nice walnut project. I have been working with walnut a lot lately and like it a lot. I recently built a drop leaf table out of walnut and attached the top to the base with metal brackets that are specially made to allow the wood to move. These are readily available at woodcraft or other woodworking outlets. I forget the exact name but they are for attaching a table top. You can also make your own out of wood. I would not recommend attaching the top with pocket screws as you are likely to see the top crack or split as it will want to move with the seasons. Good luck.

[Jamie Buxton]

The solid-lumber top is likely to expand and contract across the grain. I take that cross-grain direction to be front-back on the cabinet. You can use pocket screws along the back, but if you use them at the back, you shouldn't use them at the front.

The angled walls are an issue. As the top changes dimensions, you'll get a gap at those walls. The conservative thing to do would be to give up on the finely-scribed zero-clearance plan. Instead, leave a gap to the wall to allow movement, and then cover the gap with a molding which is fastened to the wall.

[Paul Murphy]

Mike is right about the walnut moving along it's width. A foot wide board would move almost 1/4" in width from winter to summer in my climate. I use the metal table-top clips, or make my own from wood. The metal clips are easy to slot for, I use a biscuit joiner. I use a router to cut the slot for my shop made wood clips.

When I made my shop cabinets I fixed the front of the oak worktop, and left the mid and rear free to float. I drilled 3/8" holes in the cabinet sub-top mid and rear, and used a vix bit that conviently had a 3/8" od to center the screw. I left a 1/2" space at the rear of the worktop to allow for summer expansion, and covered the gap with a "backsplash" piece of trim.

There are other ways as well, but make sure that the one you choose allows for wood movement.

Your project is looking great so far, I just love walnut.

[Tom Hargrove]

I have cherry countertops in the dining area of my kitchen. They were attached at the rear, and we used cleats with slots in them to house screws for the front of the tops. This allows the front to move in and out as the weather changes. We have a small molding under the countertop that is nailed to the face frame that dresses it up a bit, and minimizes gaps that may appear.

Your cabinet looks great. If you have not gotten too far with the drawers, you might consider butternut for the drawer fronts to compliment the walnut. Butternut is nice to work with, and takes a finish easier than maple does. The grain patterns and coloring of walnut and butternut (a/k/a "white walnut") look nice together, IMHO. It's a matter of taste, not a question of proper method.

[Kendall Stokke]

ny suggestion would be to glue some triangle shaped pieces in the for corners and drill a hole bigger that your screw diamer by maybe an 1/8 to 3/16" and attach the top with a panhead screw from the bottom. this would give you room for expansion and contraction

kendall












'

[Jerome Hanby]

I recently built a drop leaf table out of walnut and attached the top to the base with metal brackets that are specially made to allow the wood to move. These are readily available at woodcraft or other woodworking outlets. I forget the exact name but they are for attaching a table top.

Are those figure 8 connectors?

[Mike Thomas]

I did not use the figure eights. Here is what I used (see picture). I cut the groove on the table saw but a biscuit joiner works just as well. I have them all the way arond the top and no problem so far.

[dan lemkin]

Thanks for all the advice... I like the idea of triangles. but afterseeing the clips and how easy it would be with a biscuit jointer.... I may use that method.

Can you recommend a vendor for picking them up? What are they called?

Update on progress. The drawers are made, mounted and faced. The boxes are about 1/8" too small, so I cut a shim out of maple and put it behind the slide on the right... Not really noticeable. The shim backs the whole slide so there is no wobble. I just pre-drilled large holes so it would not split. The boxes are a smaller than the drawer space simply because I didn't have wider stock.. The frame is flush, so I am hoping contents will not snag much.

As this is all real wood, I am hoping the gaps I made are adequate.

*** Can someone recommend a trim option for the top. Above you recommended that I leave a gap for expansion and just lay trim around my totally asymmetric trapezoid. The only part I anticipate issues is the leading edge where there will be an approximate 1" thick bullnosed lip. If I stop the trip at the juction with the bullnose, you will see the gap. My plan, was for the last pieces of trim near the front... to cut them out of 2" stock, bandsaw in a radiused circle to match the bullnose, and then route the contour on it. Does this sound plausible... Any easier, more practicle solutions?

thanks
dan

[Mike McCann]

Dan

they are called table top fasteners at Rockler. they are 3.59 for an 8 pack

http://images.rockler.com/rockler/images/34215-01-500.jpg

[Jamie Buxton]

Can someone recommend a trim option for the top. Above you recommended that I leave a gap for expansion and just lay trim around my totally asymmetric trapezoid. The only part I anticipate issues is the leading edge where there will be an approximate 1" thick bullnosed lip. If I stop the trip at the juction with the bullnose, you will see the gap. My plan, was for the last pieces of trim near the front... to cut them out of 2" stock, bandsaw in a radiused circle to match the bullnose, and then route the contour on it. Does this sound plausible... Any easier, more practicle solutions?


The wood behavior you're fighting is expansion across the grain. Wood does not expand and contract along the grain. This means that you can make the front edge of the top exactly fit between the walls. Me, I'd make it fit exactly only for the front inch or so. Behind that, there would be a gap. The trim will cover that gap. With this approach, there is no need to wrap the trim around the front of the bullnose.

[dan lemkin]

cool idea...

Would you taper the trim at all or just have it end just short of the bullnose?

Given the application, can you recommend dimensions or a simple clean profile that would work? I assume it has to be big enough not to split when I brad nail it into the plaster wall...

[Jamie Buxton]

cool idea...

Would you taper the trim at all or just have it end just short of the bullnose?

Given the application, can you recommend dimensions or a simple clean profile that would work? I assume it has to be big enough not to split when I brad nail it into the plaster wall...

The molding shape is mostly a matter of what you like. Me, I'm a minimalist, so I'd probably use a piece of base shoe. It is like quarter round, but taller than it is wide. I'd just round the ends near the front. But maybe you might like more elaborate moldings. You could use something that is several inches tall, and looks more like the backsplash on a kitchen counter, or like baseboard.

You might look at other moldings in the area for hints -- the window moldings, the baseboard, and such.

[dan lemkin]

Ordered the clips.

I fabricated new baseboard. The old was really nasty with 80 years worth of peeling paint on it. I also made some quarter-round out of walnut and did a amateur job of scribing the ends to meet up with the oak quarter-round adjacent to it.

I have a friend looking for some walnut to complete the project. As soon as it is glued up and screwed down, I will post some finished project pics.

-dan

[dan lemkin]

Made the top. Got stock at lumber yard in s. PA. Groff and Groff... seem like decent prices and good selection. Staff was not that helpful though. Ignored us when we walked in, and then were absent except to measure and check out. Were all sitting around eating lunch...so not busy.

Started with 6/4 about 10-11" boards. Finish thickness was 1.25". Did a rough fit with the intention of flushing up only the leading edge... I missed and made it about 1/8" too narrow... so each side has a small gap (i can live with).

Used the brackets Mike recommended. They worked great. Simple cut with biscuit jointer. (did require resetting height and a few test cuts on scrap)

Finally got some decent hardware from mcfeelys and lee valley... screwed it all down. Used minwax wiping oil poly which really seems to work well. It is amazingly easy to apply and dries with a nice low-sheen finish and no significant buildup after three coats.

[QUESTION: I AM MAKING A DININGROOM TABLE NEXT... CAN I USE THIS WIPING POLY ON THE TOP? OR CAN SOMEONE RECOMMEND A DURABLE FINISH THAT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE LACQUER OR EPOXY?]

Just have to apply the trim around the wall and It is done :)

[Scott Schwake]

Dan,

If I read your picture captions correctly, you used a mix of Beadlock and pockethole jointery on the faceframe, just curious why.

[dan lemkin]

Dan,

If I read your picture captions correctly, you used a mix of Beadlock and pockethole jointery on the faceframe, just curious why.

I needed the two middle vertical pieces to align precisely with the perpendicular plywood frame so the drawer slides would function. The window well and therefore the box is not perfectly square or symmetric, so I wanted to mark it in place. I made up and glued the end pieces and then, once secured in position, clamped and drilled the pocket holes for the middle face members.

It was kinda out of necessity once I had glued up the beadlock ends... In hindsight, I could have beadlocked the whole thing, if I had taken the measurements with a dry-fit assembled frame prior to glue up.

[summary--- beginner learning...adapt as you go kinda stuff]