Arrrrggghhhh! Even real lumber yards selling it now.

[Ben Cadotte]

First off I have had ok luck with the China "Birch" plywood. But decided when I make my next set of cabinets I would try something a little better. So I go to one of my local "Real" lumber yards and talk to the sales guy. He said he had shop grade Birch plywood for $45 a sheet. I specifically asked if it was the China stuff and he said no. So, I pay for 5 sheets and go out to the yard and pick them up. I started to wonder as it looked just like the Borg stuff but didn't see the tell tale label on it. So, I loaded up the 5 sheets and drove home. Thinking I got some decent ply for shop cabinets for only about 10% more than the Borg's. Was feeling pretty good.

Then I got to my shop and was getting ready to unload the ply. On the side where the lumberyard guy was helping load the ply were these big blue stamps. MADE IN CHINA :mad: Not only was it the same CHINA stuff but it ended up costing me $6 a sheet more! :mad: I thought it over and decided I would take it back. So, I took it back and was helped by a different salesman. He asked why and I said its the same made in China stuff sold at Lowes / HD. And I said I specifically asked before I bought it if it was mad in CHINA or not. After some talking I ended up switching to some 7 ply fir A/C ply for same price.

The other option was what they list as Birch ply for $72 a sheet. But they could not tell me the source of it. So, I just opted for the FIR.

I have had ok luck with the China stuff. But I am definately not going to pay more for it while still risking that I may get a bad sheet. Their recipt even says no waranty under the product. So they know it may delaminate. And unlike the Borgs will not take it back if it does. I will see how this FIR works out. I really dont want to pay $72 a sheet for garage cabinets.

[guy knight]

its shop grade ply you want a better grade

[John Thompson]

My local supplier clearly marks stacks.... IMPORT.. or DOMESTIC but all you have to do is look at it and it speaks for itself.

Sarge..

[Bruce Page]

If people would quit buying this junk plywood they would quit selling it.

JMHO

[Larry Edgerton]

If people would quit buying this junk plywood they would quit selling it.

JMHO

I not only don't buy it, I make them come and pick it back up. Our local "Real Yard" tried sending me some, and I refused it. They get theirs from Canada now and it is better if not as good as the old stuff.

Speaking of old stuff I bought a bunk of 30 year old birch plywood a few years ago. It was wonderful! All the same size, 3/4 inch exactly, flat, beautiful uniform cores with no voids. The veneer was 1/16 thick! I wish I had been a little more appreciative of it now and had saved it for my own use.

If you accept junk, they will keep stocking it.

[Phil Thien]

My local Menards carries good, U.S. (or at least North American) made stuff. And my lumber yard, when you ask "where is it" will interrupt you and say, "U.S. or Canada," so they are sensitive to the issue.

[george wilson]

The cheapies,and ignorant-of-quality people in our society are dragging down the rest of us with them. It can't just be the folks who cannot afford better products,because too many people are buying it.

[Jules Dominguez]

For the benefit of anyone in the Atlanta metro area, I have over the years bought consistently good quality birch and oak ply at the HD on Highway 78 east of Stone Mountain. The last sheet of birch I bought was about $40 or maybe a few bucks more and that was a couple of months ago. I saw some of the Chinese ply in the same store at the same time, of obviously lower quality, but it was priced lower and clearly marked as Chinese.

[Tony Bilello]

The cheapies,and ignorant-of-quality people in our society are dragging down the rest of us with them. It can't just be the folks who cannot afford better products,because too many people are buying it.

There are more cheapies than you would suspect.
A good example would be a particular tool manufacturer/seller that sells absolute, no doubt about it crap. Their name crops up on here from time to time. Whenever it gets bashed, there will always be the folks that say that their stuff is good and is the best tool they own.
I know several people that can afford quality stuff but are always buying junk because its cheaper.
If a large amount of the population were not cheapies, we would not be left without industry in this country.
It is frustrating for the people that make or sell quality goods because their market is limited.

[John Stevens]

I started to wonder as it looked just like the Borg stuff but didn't see the tell tale label on it. So, I loaded up the 5 sheets and drove home.

Funny, same thing happened to me recently at a very reputable local yard that I've buying nice solid wood and furniture-grade ply from for the past five years. Like you, I noticed that the ply seemed to look just like the cheap stuff at HD, but figured it was my imagination. Definitely not, because after I got it home and started cutting it into parts for credenzas, it was obviously not the same quality as before. Luckily, the voids were not located where I sank the dominos, and the finish was black dye so the surface defects didn't show, so this was a pretty painless lesson to learn.

Not sure what I will do next time, hoping this is just a temporary glitch, not a permanent change. But I'll definitely call and ask before I make the drive next time.

Regards,

John

[Rick Fisher]

I am in the lumberyard business. We sell the Chinese Birch and Maple ply. We also stock Baltic Birch plywood from the Ukraine or Russia.

Here is the problem. The Cabinet shops buy from the same suppliers as the lumberyards. So volume buyers dont buy from Lumberyards. That means the lumberyard sells to General Contractors and Retail customers.

If we could sell lifts of $80.00 a sheet domestic birch plywood, we would love too. The problem is that people want to pay $39.99. (which is what we sell it for) ..

We buy it for $30.00 - $32.00 a sheet and make $8 - $10 on it.

The good stuff costs $65.00 and sells for $80.00 So we make $15.

The problem is that the good stuff doesnt sell. A lift could last a year.

[Craig Johnson]

IMHO 80.00 a sheet for any type of plywood is rediculous.

[Michael Schwartz]

Well I recently built some cabinets for my shop and decided to give the Chinese "Paint Grade 3/4 plywood" from the Borg a try. I was building the cabinets for myself to install in my shop so I really didn't care but I could never use this junk for anything I build for a customer.

I had to reject about 5 sheets off the top of the stack, since they were warped, delaminating, with damage to the veneer. I don't even know why they had these on out for sale, when they belong in the dumpster.

All of the sheets were pretty damp to the touch and had a high moisture content. All of the sheets had imperfections such as dents and gouges, and the veneer was delaminating on every piece on some spot or another.

The veneer was extremely thin and had stains in spots (looked like spalting) from probable exposure to mold/moisture.

The stuff is very splintery when cut and again the veneer is so thin and the adhesive so week it tended to delaminate on the edges right after cutting it.

This stuff is basically useless. The cabinets came out fine for what I designed them for, but you really can't use this stuff for anything anybody will ever look at. Painting the stuff isn't even an option because the amount of time you would spend making the junk smooth with filler would defeat any cost savings.

All in all I would not use this junk for anything I would sell to a client. The stuff is basically a defective product. I don't even see how there are cost savings with it based on the amount of extra time it would take to pick through the stuff, select the better sheets, and then the extra surface prep involved with it. This basically rules it out for anything anybody will look at it and if it is hidden there are cheaper materials that are better.

In my shop If cost is an issue use either MDF or Particle board and if plywood is needed for its screwholding I use exterior fir plywood. I have a good dust collection system so I can tolerate the extra dust from MDF for a product that is is uniform, flat, and is finish grade.

On a positive note my local BORG had a few skids of 3/4" birch ply from colombia forest products as well as some other formaldehyde free sheet goods.

[Larry Edgerton]

There are more cheapies than you would suspect.
A good example would be a particular tool manufacturer/seller that sells absolute, no doubt about it crap. Their name crops up on here from time to time. Whenever it gets bashed, there will always be the folks that say that their stuff is good and is the best tool they own.
I know several people that can afford quality stuff but are always buying junk because its cheaper.
If a large amount of the population were not cheapies, we would not be left without industry in this country.
It is frustrating for the people that make or sell quality goods because their market is limited.

Exactly. I do not often recommend tools anymore, because of this phenomenon. People have to believe that whatever they have is as good as one needs, validates their spending, but also promotes worse and worse selections of tools. Professional grade tools are disappearing at an alarming rate, and no new tools of professional quality are being developed.

I am hoarding some of my favorites so I can work the rest of my life with quality tools, but what are the generations coming up going to buy?

Also, the Borg promoting that you can do it yourself and save is doing much to drag down the perception of quality work. I am seeing more and more homeowner mistakes that are accepted as "The way it is supposed to be done" and so the general population expects work no better than what you would see in a modular. Guys like me are dinosaurs, I find fewer and fewer people that can see the difference, and have spent more time lately fixing hacks screwups than building.

Frusterating times for someone that gives a damn......

[Joel Earl]

Rick said it all IMO.
We might have a few willing to pay what it takes to get the real quality stuff here but I bet if we are honest we also will find most of us won't unless it's for something special.

So where's that leave us? We buy the stuff we get worked up about usually. Economics. Don't kid ourselves into thinking the stuff will ever be cheap again regardless of demand or lack of .... it all costs money to produce. Today that's bigger money than yesterday.

It's kinda funny and I'm in this camp too - we get all worked up about imported tools and the fact some are lousy quality. We spend a zillion bucks to get a PM, General, Sawstop or similar since it's local and usually better quality. Sometimes we spend 4-5x the cost of a decent and servicable tool from say Grizzly or >insert<.
Wood, plywood for crying out loud, we get worked into a tizzy about as it cost 2x more maybe for the best stuff and one would think the mills stole our first born kid.

I'm with you in unhappiness on it all but it takes an extra buck to get the best and we already all knew that.;)
Not trying to stir the emotions but it's just the dang truth.

BTW - my local yards don't carry much of the good stuff at all right now - they all say they can not sell it. It doesn't move --- period. End of story

[Jason Beam]

IMHO 80.00 a sheet for any type of plywood is rediculous.

Nuff said.

That is the very reason we have cheap crappy plywood. I'd like to see you make a sheet of ply for UNDER $80 that's as good.

[Wilbur Pan]

IMHO 80.00 a sheet for any type of plywood is ridiculous [sp].

Why?

This is a serious question. A 4' x 8' piece of 3/4" plywood is 24 board feet. At $80 a sheet, that works out to $3.33/bd. ft.

So for $3.33 a board foot, you'll get a piece of wood with finish grade birch faces, and is dimensionally stable. Compare that to the price of solid lumber, and it seems like a pretty reasonable price to me.

So I've explained why I think that $80 for a quality piece of plywood is worthwhile. Maybe you can explain why it should be cheaper.

[Joel Earl]

Plywood and all wood prices seem pretty outrageous until I realize that the product they are part of is there for a long long time. Then it seems like a bargain.

No one I know ever said this was a cheap hobby or occupation to be in. The cost of wood is about the cheapest component of the whole thing. Compared to the cost of a dinner out it seems cheap for something that sticks around awhile longer;)

[Chris Konikowski]

Why?

This is a serious question. A 4' x 8' piece of 3/4" plywood is 24 board feet. At $80 a sheet, that works out to $3.33/bd. ft.

So for $3.33 a board foot, you'll get a piece of wood with finish grade birch faces, and is dimensionally stable. Compare that to the price of solid lumber, and it seems like a pretty reasonable price to me.

So I've explained why I think that $80 for a quality piece of plywood is worthwhile. Maybe you can explain why it should be cheaper.

That is great and all, but you are also buying filler wood, aren't you? You are not buying 24 board feet of birch or fir or whatever...

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Chris,

Not necessarily. Plywood can be used as the side of a bookcase, top of a desk, side of a cabinet -- all show surfaces.

This is also presuming that wood used in a project that is not seen necessarily needs to be extremely cheap. Compare $3.33/bd. ft. to the price of poplar or pine that you would use for a drawer. At least here in NJ, I'd be pretty happy to get good quality poplar or clear pine at that price.

And as Joe mentioned, my assumption is that we want to make projects that last. That includes hidden pieces like shelves and the backs and sides of drawers.

[Mark Bolton]

Plywood and all wood prices seem pretty outrageous until I realize that the product they are part of is there for a long long time. Then it seems like a bargain.

No one I know ever said this was a cheap hobby or occupation to be in. The cost of wood is about the cheapest component of the whole thing. Compared to the cost of a dinner out it seems cheap for something that sticks around awhile longer;)

Another way to realize the price is to spend a few days in the woods, on a landing, or at a sawmill/kiln, processing the material. It is a major affair. Its one of those things like raising and preparing our food that so many people have no idea how resource and labor intensive it is.

It makes walking in a plunking down some cash for some boards seem lazy.

It would be a good experience for many to spend a day or two seeing what it actually takes to sustain us.

Mark

[Steve Clardy]

Why?

This is a serious question. A 4' x 8' piece of 3/4" plywood is 24 board feet. At $80 a sheet, that works out to $3.33/bd. ft.

So for $3.33 a board foot, you'll get a piece of wood with finish grade birch faces, and is dimensionally stable. Compare that to the price of solid lumber, and it seems like a pretty reasonable price to me.

So I've explained why I think that $80 for a quality piece of plywood is worthwhile. Maybe you can explain why it should be cheaper.



It's 32 feet square feet of coverage :) <---edited for clarity.

I often, usually weekly, pay $93.00 a sheet for domestic cabinet grade plywood.
Import costs me less, if I buy it.
If I have to get real tight on a cabinet bid, sometimes I will use an import ply on the bottom inside's of the cabinets and shelves.
Uppers, where everything is highly visible, I use the higher grade domestic ply.
It's all economics when trying to bid a job when people are trying to get the best price, but still want quality workmanship and the best products.

[Wilbur Pan]

It's 32 feet.:)

Obviously, you go to one of those lumber yards where they plane down 4/4 stock to 3/4" and still calculate the board feet as if it was still 1" thick. ;)

But say it was 32 board feet. Now that $80 sheet of lumber is $2.50 a board foot -- more of a bargain.

[Pat Germain]

Most people have no idea what the difference is between a quality product and a lousy product. Take bicycles. A decent, hard-tail mountain bike can set you back at least $600. But you can go to a department store and buy a "mountain bike" for less than $200. Since most people have never ridden a quality mountain bike, they don't know what a piece of junk they're getting from the department store. "And look. It's got a shock in the back!" They think they're smart for not paying over $600 at that ridiculous bike shop. :rolleyes:

Bicycles have lots of new features and technology which justifies the price. What kind of new technology justifies a sheet of plywood being over $80 a sheet when, not long ago, the price was half that? Certainly, there are added costs from a few years ago.

But I'm wondering if there's something else going on. Perhaps with the proliferation of OSB, plywood manufacturers can now market their product as "premium". Also, since the plywood market is much smaller since OSB took over, maybe the jump in price is an attempt to make up the difference in volume with increased margins.

So, China is now filling a market demand for less expensive plywood. Based on what I'm hearing, it's not worth the fuel it takes to push it across the Pacific. But again, the average weekend warrior probably won't know the difference when he makes that big shelf in the garage where he stacks all the extra crap he never uses.

[Joe Jensen]

I am a discerning buyer who nearly always searches out quality, so I share the dismay.

I suspect that the vast majority of the plywood consumed in the US is consumed by builders and remodelers. I doubt the amount homeowners buy at the borgs is meaningful at all. What should really worry us is how long houses made with this chinese crap will last. Do you want a house built with those plywood I-beam floor joists made from chinese ply? How about shear walls from the ply that delaminates? Sheathing the roof with that stuff? How is chinese OSB? Does the govt test the chinese crap?

[Rick Fisher]

Up in Canada, Plywood used in new construction needs to be certified. For the longest time, even US made ply wasnt legal for use up here.

As long as I can remember, the good plywood has been around $100.00 a sheet.

We used to sell shop grade maple for $59.99. Lumberyards always bought shop grades and cabinet shops paid for the good stuff.

Then, the asian plywoods started on the scene..

You guys need to remember that a good retailer doesnt sell what he wants to sell, he sells what his customers want to buy. If you want real cabinet grade plywood, its readily avaliable. The problem is that most people want cheap. If we stock both, its almost guarenteed that people will load up on the good stuff, but pay for the cheap stuff.. Its not worth the hassle for a lift a year.

Its the consumer that is to blame, not the retailer.

[Jon Amsden]

Wow guys, this problem is completely foreign to me. In Canada it seems that everywhere I shop sells Canadian made plywood. Even Home Depot! I really do feel fortunate to not have to worry about that.

[Rod Sheridan]

Wow guys, this problem is completely foreign to me. In Canada it seems that everywhere I shop sells Canadian made plywood. Even Home Depot! I really do feel fortunate to not have to worry about that.

Jon, you must not live in Toronto.

At Rona and Home Depot, they have both imported and domestic plywood.

The imported plywood doesn't have the certification marks on it, and looks like a roller skate park.

The domestic stuff is better, however neither of the above suppliers carry much (if any) in furniture grade sheet goods.

Fortunately my local sawmill does, in prices ranging from $60 to $140 per sheet.

Regards, Rod.

[Ben Cadotte]

One of the issues I have with the lumber yard is I specifically asked if it was China stuff. And was told no. Even when I brought it back and a different salesman helped me do the return / swap. He was like "It's made in China?". The yard I bought it at is local but I think they have 10-12 locations. So they are a small chain. What gets me is they do commercials all the time on the radio about how they are better than the Borgs. But then I go there and find out not only are they selling the same stuff, but charging more for the "convience" of them being a full service yard. It's all a total crok of bull. Whats really amazing I paid cash and carry prices for it, 10% off. Which means contractors with an account are paying even more for it. :eek:

The next thing I want to suggest is why is the good plywood so much?? Building materials right now is about the same price as 14 years ago. And yet the good plywood is about 33% higher? I used to be a buyer for a small local lumber yard back then. I know lumber and plywood is a comodity and the pricing changes daily. And know every time a natural disaster hits prices skyrocket. But right now material prices are way down. Except for the good grade of plywood? Have they decided not to try and compete with the CHINA made stuff and chosen the low production high markup tier of supply and demand ecconomics?

[Bill Blackburn]

I used to see maple, oak, other hardwoods for under .75 a BF in mid 1990's here. Now it's $2.75 up. Plywood is up about the same for the cabinet grade stuff when it's around. Much less for the imported stuff.

I am wondering if there has actually been an overly steep increase on plywood when they are compared ? I cannot see it here thankfully.
Cigarettes back then when I smoked were $1.55. Now more than $7.55 a pack in many places. That my friends is what I call a hike for what I today see as a non-essential item. :eek:
If I still smoked I would be "fuming" ;)

[Chris Konikowski]

Hi Chris,

Not necessarily. Plywood can be used as the side of a bookcase, top of a desk, side of a cabinet -- all show surfaces.

This is also presuming that wood used in a project that is not seen necessarily needs to be extremely cheap. Compare $3.33/bd. ft. to the price of poplar or pine that you would use for a drawer. At least here in NJ, I'd be pretty happy to get good quality poplar or clear pine at that price.

And as Joe mentioned, my assumption is that we want to make projects that last. That includes hidden pieces like shelves and the backs and sides of drawers.

I meant that the whole sheet is not premium wood, only the outside veneer. The center of the ply is, well, a number of things, but the same species as the veneer.

[Marlin Williams]

I am in the lumberyard business. We sell the Chinese Birch and Maple ply. We also stock Baltic Birch plywood from the Ukraine or Russia.

Here is the problem. The Cabinet shops buy from the same suppliers as the lumberyards. So volume buyers dont buy from Lumberyards. That means the lumberyard sells to General Contractors and Retail customers.

If we could sell lifts of $80.00 a sheet domestic birch plywood, we would love too. The problem is that people want to pay $39.99. (which is what we sell it for) ..

We buy it for $30.00 - $32.00 a sheet and make $8 - $10 on it.

The good stuff costs $65.00 and sells for $80.00 So we make $15.

The problem is that the good stuff doesnt sell. A lift could last a year.


Do this mark them up the same, $8 as you said. Put a sign up that says Chinese plywood is $40 and US/Canada plywood is $73.
I bet you double your sells of good plywood easy.

I would pay extra to know my wood is not going to warp, delaminate, etc... Cost me a lot more to redo something then do it right the first time.

[Jon Amsden]

you must not live in Toronto.

actually, its funny you should say that. I live in Toronto but have never had to buy lumber in Toronto. At a Windsor Home Depot I found great maple plywood and in London the cheapest 3/8 ply they had (I only needed it as a sub floor) was made in Canada. I couldn't be happier in both situations!

[Rod Sheridan]

actually, its funny you should say that. I live in Toronto but have never had to buy lumber in Toronto. At a Windsor Home Depot I found great maple plywood and in London the cheapest 3/8 ply they had (I only needed it as a sub floor) was made in Canada. I couldn't be happier in both situations!

Jon, those are good reasons to be happy, I sure was amazed at the imported plywood at Rona. It was de-laminating in the store.......Rod.

[Jeff Rowley]

I just got through quoting a poker table with topper that is going to need 5 sheets total. I had taken a quick look at HD, and saw the maple/birch stuff at $40/sheet.

This thread made me go look again. The $40/sheet stuff is the chinese stuff. They have domestic stuff a little further down the aisle for $58/sheet. The piles look like night and day. The chinese pile looks like a used deck of cards. The domestic pile is nice and flat on every piece.

Now I need to find the extra $90 for the good stuff... :(

[Paul Johnstone]

I remember back when the home centers used to stock B grade plywood that was of good quality (wouldn't delaminate, etc). I was buying some 3/4 ply then. Two guys walked in, and were talking about what to buy. They decided to buy 1/2 inch oak plywood, which was about $5 sheet less than the 3/4 oak plywood. I could kind of tell they didn't have much experience in woodworking, so I ask them what they are going to build.

They were going to build a bookcase, 7 feet high, and 4 feet wide. I tell them that they need to use 3/4 plywood for that, and recommended that they only make it 32 inches wide to avoid shelves sagging or else reinforce the shelves, etc. They just said "Well, I'm sure 1/2 inch will be good enough" :eek: I mean, geez, they are going to ruin their entire project, just to save $5/sheet. That's such typical consumer thinking.

[Rick Fisher]

MDF is the same way. It comes in a load of different weights. We sell the #2 grade. The Premium stuff is about $5 a sheet more for 3/4". People wont pay the $5.00 for heavier stuff.

And so it goes..

[Jeff Wright]

Count me as a "victim" of lousy chinese birch ply. I recently bought 3/4 inch birch ply for a Murphy Bed I'm building. I got it from my local hardwood dealer who has provided me with great hardwoods and maple ply over the last couple years . . . quality goods - or so I thought. I just assembled the bed and now realize the upright sides of the cabinet that houses the bed frame is so distorted I'll have to remake it. I'm inclined to use glued-up poplar. The birch ply I bought from them (Weiss Lumber in Largo FL) is no better than what I could get at HD or Lowes. While the birch might work ok for SOME shop stuff, the folks at the wood store knew what I intended to use the ply for. I specified birch only because I intended to paint it. I sure wish they had offered some disclaimers first. Live and learn (and spend money!).

[Jon Knauft]

We have to realize that economics are coming into play here as well. The local lumberyard has seen costs go up over the years. Salaries, insurance, gas for the trucks, etc. They would like to make the same income (or more). They have a couple of choices. They can charge more for the same product or find a cheaper product that they can sell more of. My guess is we'll see more of the imported plywood in the coming years.

As a side note I've been picking up all my lumber at auctions lately. Most of the plywood tends to be older stock and if it's dry I can usually get a good deal on it. I've been paying $20-40 per sheet. I just went to an auction where they had 6,000 board feet of 15 year old cherry sitting in a barn. It went to one buyer for just over $1.00/board foot.

-Jon

[Jimmie Mayfield]

Rick,

I'm curious what would happen if you were to set up a display comparing Chinese ply to the domestic and/or European stuff. Show cross sections and compare voids, veneer thickness, uniformity etc with a brief explanation of why they're important.

Leave the display up for a few weeks and see if there's a noticeable uptick in sales of the better-grade stuff.

Probably won't affect purchases by pros who are knowingly buying the Chinese stuff to meet a bid but it might sway the weekend woodworkers who maybe weren't aware. (Then again, it might cause those guys to go to the BORG thinking that your particular Chinese stuff is somehow lower quality than their Chinese stuff...)