Entry door

[Jason Yeager]

Hello,

I am planning on making my first entry door and thought I would run the process by the folks on the Creek. The door will be 42" wide, and 8.5' tall, and 2.25" thick. I am thinking of using a mix of LVL and alder and building a shaker style door (don't have much in the way of tools).

After ripping LVL to size, I am going to edge glue .75" stock to 1 7/8 " LVL edges, then plane down to 1.75". After, I plan to glue 3/4" stock to the faces of the LVL, then plane those rails and stiles down equally on both sides till I get to 2.25", leaving a .25" layer of alder on each face.

A local guy I know told me to make my panels out of .75" stock. He recommended making two solid panels of alder, then glue each of those panels to a piece of .25" plywood????:eek: This would result in a sandwich with the plywood as the peanut butter and a solid panel on each side as the bread. He said that if one of the panels cracked, the plywood would prevent air/light/moisture traveling through the door. He says it works great around here and that family has been building doors for years. Never heard of doing that though. Not sure how thick the panels should be either??

Once the panels are built, I plan to dado the rails and stiles, and using M & T joinery, glue the door together (not glueing the panels). Any reccommedations would be much appreciated, especially any ideas on keeping the door square and flat during glue up.

Thanks a ton

[Mike Goetzke]

Jason - I'm preparing to make my first exterior door too. It's interesting to hear all the different methods people use. The size of your door is HUGE. I'm building a more standard 36" door. I'm thinking of using QSWO. I understand the reasons for "engineered" stiles but I'm hoping I can use solid oak for the stiles. If not, I am thinking of making my own laminated core with the oak. I'm sort of afraid when I go to rout the profile on the rails/stiles there may be a mismatch of grain with the engineered lumber. The other choice is to use mouldings for the profile - I guess.

On the ply between the panels. For a std. 1-3/4" door probably not necessary but on your 2-1/4" door sounds like a good idea as a filler if nothing else.

Keep us updated on your progress!

Mike

[Jason Yeager]

Good luck with your door Mike.

Anyone out there use a hollow chisel mortiser in LVL material or something similar??

[Brad Shipton]

Ok, so here are the tools I think we have to work with. A TS, planer and a HCM (benchtop??). No BS or jointer.

For the stave core to work you will need to develop uniform pressure on the skins. I used a wooden clamp assembly for my first stave core doors and I now use a vacuum bag. I found some good clamping examples on the woodweb.

Any chance you have access to glulams for the cores? This is what i use and it is quite a bit cheaper and lighter. Not quite as perfect as the LVL, but could joint with your planer.

Using an HCM on an LVL will be a nightmare. Maybe if you find a lower grade LVL such as a rimboard or 1.3E stock, but even then it will be tough unless you pre-drill. I bet those using LVL cores have an industrial boring machines. Even glulams were a good workout on the arms when it came time to make up the RS for four doors and I have a floor model 1hp HCM.

If your HCM is a benchtop, you might want to think about chopping them by hand. It might be just as easy if you are only building one.

Am I misreading this, or are you planning to plane 0.5" off each face? Yikes. Certainly Wood does have some veneers in 1/16" and 1/8" for door builders. Not as cheap as you can make it, but they get the best stock and since it sounds like you dont have a BS you cannot make your own.

I dont like the thought of gluing the skins to the plywood panels solidly unless it is a veneer thickness.

Does your door have much cover from the weather? A mission style door is not a great option in cases where the door is totally exposed due to all the spots where water can sit. If that is the case, I think an applied moulding may be something you might want to consider.

Keeping the door flat and square is largely dependent upon your table and the squarenss of your cuts. If your joints are not perfect, I recommend you use a shoulder plane or another hand tool to fix em. Perfect joints and it is smooth sailing.

good luck.
Brad

[Joe Jensen]

You want the panels to float in slots in the frame. Solid wood moves with humidity changes and this is especially challenging with a door. I have read many times about doing two panels back to back, but not with plywood in between. If the panel is glued into the groove in the frame it will crack because the wood will be prevented from shrinking. If it's glued everywhere to plywood it will crack. You could sandwich with plywood if only the middle of the solid wood panels are glued to the plywood. Pick the middle and run a bead of glue with the grain from top to bottom. This will make the sandwich stay together but still let the wood move with humidity changes.

[Jason Yeager]

Thanks Brad and Joe!

As you can tell, I am in my rookie season in woodworking, I have more ambition than skill and technique.

Brad, you were right on the money as far as tools go. No bs and no jointer. As far as coverage, the door is shielded well from moisture and sun.

You reccommend using glulams....what size would you buy for the door I am building? Glulams that I am familiar with are usually pretty darn big beams, which I would then have to cut down somehow??

I hadn't thought of buying veneers, that is a great idea.

I had figured on .25" veneers with the LVL so that I end up at 2.25", a standard door thickness. Seems like some people think that is too thick for a veneer, what do you say?

Last question, how do you construct your panels and how thick are they relative to the door thickness?

Thanks a ton, I really appreciate everyones time

[Peter Quinn]

Machining LVL's or other manmade materials mostly requires carbide tooling, which leaves out the HCM. Gonna be real hard on the tooling there, so start sharp and be ready to sharpen several times. On a 2 1/4" thick door I'm looking for a mortise 3" deep and at least 5/8"-3/4", which is gonna be real tough with a bench top mortiser. I'd probably look for a router with a jig based on a bushing guide myself.

On the panels, I would NOT glue solid panels to a piece of plywood ever. We have glued solid panels back to back, we have siliconed them to a man made backer which works, but never glue to plywood. Bad idea, then its not IF they crack but When they crack!

As far as edging, "After ripping LVL to size, I am going to edge glue .75" stock to 1 7/8 " LVL edges, then plane down to 1.75". ", I am a bit confused. You are starting with 1 3/4" LVL, no? So you are going to edge band it with solid wood 3/4" X 1 7/8", where does the planer come in? I would flush trim the edge banding to the LVL with a router, but I would NOT push LVL's through your planer, this may not go well.

It can be easier on a door that big to make the M&T frame with a panel groove, no panels, then glue a spacer into the panel groove and hold the panels in with panel mold glued to this spacer. You can make a pretty nice door with minimal tooling this way, and its easier to fix a panel should one fail.

Good luck, draw it up well and enjoy the process.

[Jason Yeager]

Peter,

Thanks from your insight, I usually learn a lot from your posts. I do quite a bit of construction work, and most of the LVL's that I get are actually thicker than 1 3/4", usually close to 1 7/8". Maybe just a local irregularity, I don't know.

I had planned on gluing the 3/4" edging to the rails and stiles, then planing those down to 1 3/4" to take the paint off the LVL so I get a good bond when gluing on the veneers.

I am wondering how thick panels should be for a door like this, or maybe there is not real standard, and it is up to the artisan?

Thanks again

[Jamie Buxton]

You might do well to select your hardware while you're in the planning stage. Good door hardware is surprisingly expensive.

[Jason Yeager]

Thanks Jamie,

that is a keen idea, I'd better be more diligent in planning this out so I don't hit a road block.

Cheers

Jason

[Peter Scoma]

I'm in the process of finishing up 2 carraige doors for my shop. They are 48in wide by 8 ft tall made from 8/4 poplar. I drew up a ton of designs trying to avoid buying the 200$ freud entry door cope and stick set but eventually bit the bullet and did so. Worth every penny IMO and makes the process much easier.

PS

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Use Epoxy. And use a penetrating epoxy on exposed end grain at the top and bottom of the door. Use Epoxy for assembly. West 209 is a L-O-N-G open time glue. It's sensitive to squeeze out though. Long open time is handy when assembling doors. They can be hinkey.

Ya might even use epoxy as the coating.

[Brad Shipton]

I agree with Peter and Jamie's comments about hardware and preparing a drawing. These are both very steps that should be included now. I think you might find the door frame will present a few challenges too, well, if you want it to last anyway.

The glulams I purchased were 1.75"x11.875" and I recently was quoted $2 (can)/ft for 1.75"x14" glulams. Since you dont have a jointer I would ask for architectural grade.

Did you know you can buy stave core rails/stiles? They will build to your spec. They are not cheap, but it might be something you want to consider. You can find the suppliers on the woodweb.

As for the door thickness, 2.25" thick is common for the door size you are planning.

Since this is your main entrance door you might want to build a test door to work out the kinks.

Brad

[Tom Adger]

Cliff, as it happens, I am making an entry door for my shop. Exposed to the elements. The frame is 2x4's, with a 2x6 on the side which will have the lockset. The outside will be 1x6 pressure treated, tongue and grooved. All the wood was racked and stickered for several months.
all boards were jointed, and planed to give a final thickness of 1.75". The outside panel of 1x6's will be glued and screwed to the frame. I am concerned about the edges, particularly the 1x6's, which will have end grain exposed at top and bottom. You mentioned a penetrating epoxy. Do you have a particular brand and source in mind? If it matters, after finishing, I will prime and paint the door.

[Peter Quinn]

Jamie, It can be very difficult to glue edge banding precisely flush to the edge of a piece of material over 80+ inches such as a door style. Generally I find it preferable to prepare the edge banding thicker than the piece it is being glued to and flush trim it after the glue dries. I also don't like to put engineered materials through a planer or thickness sander as it tends to disturb the equilibrium of the odd number of layers given it is very difficult to remove equal thickness from each side. It can wind up bowed which defeats one of the principle reasons to use man made materials.

If you will be applying skins to the faces of the LVL's I would think the actual thickness of the cores wouldn't matter as long as the sum of the skins and the core equal your 2 1/4" thickness. Better to adjust the thickness of your veneer skins with your planer than plane the LVL's to a number. If you find the factory surface is not sufficient for a glue bond perhaps roughing them up with a belt sander might help?

As far as panel thickness the doors we make are generally designed with panels that match the thickness of the door, but I don't think this is a requirement and I like the effect of a panel thinner than the door, a sort of shadow or set back approach that adds depth to my eye. I would think 1 1/2" might be a minimum on a door that thick? Not much R value in wood, mostly a security and design concern left up to your judgement.

As far as glue ours are made almost exclusively with tite bond III. It can be VERY difficult to clean the glue squeeze from a M&T door using epoxy. I think PL glue might be preferable as the squeeze is easier to clean once dried, though consider the stain and finish you will be using before choosing an adhesive, as the dried areas of adhesive can negatively affect the finishing process. It will take a lot of blue tape to control the glue squeeze from many adhesives I recommend you try a few simple test joints from glue to finish, sample boards if you will, to see what may work for you and identify any pitfalls before building your actual door. Much cheaper way to learn. In fact many aspects of the project might be well served with small scale samples to test your methods.

Gluing up a full sized door, particularly one as large as you are making, really requires two people or a very specialized bench. Just flipping it over to clean the glue from the other side is difficult. With two people at glue up there is plenty of time to use PVA glue if you are organized, and PVA type 3 is plenty strong enough.

[Jason Yeager]

Wow,

Thanks for the replies. I was just reading a bunch of door building information of woodweb, and a guy mentioned he had LVL stile cup. Apparently, LVL absorbs moisture very readily.

I am going to check out the cost of glulams and stave cores.....

I am a bit confused on the issue of the thickness of the skins for the rails and stiles. I read a lot to learn as much as I can, and some guys say you shouldn't have skins thicker than 1/8", while others seem to be using 1/4" with not problem. Obviously with LVL and glulam construction, to get a 2.25" door you have to use thicker skins at 1/4". Anyone have any insight on that one.

Thanks again for the help, if you have any questions about flyfishing, I can reciprocate.:D

Cheers,

Jason

[Larry Edgerton]

After replacing a coupe of conventionally built doors when they warped I got ahold of the Gougeon brothers and came up with a system that is flexable, but allows all sorts of variables and never fails. The key to this is the use of West System Epoxy. With the use of epoxy many of the rules of traditional woodworking can be ignored.

My problem started with clients changing the finishes on exterior doors, on Mackinaw Island, one of the harshest enviroments one can imagine for wood doors. One in particular was a 48"round top that they painted with Purple oil paint on the inside and left the outside with its spar varnish. It warped, and they would not accept that it was their fault, and so to save face, and business on the island, I replaced it for free. There was another door earlier with the same circumstances, so it was time to come up with a better way.

I now build all of my exterior doors with a center core of plywood, I use good 2 sides birch, either 1/2" or 3/4", depending on final thickness. The plywood is cut to 4" less than the finish dimensions and then banded with whatever species of wood that the door will be. Carefull selection so that color and grain matches on the hinge and strike sides is key here, but that will become clear why as we procede.

Next I build two doors basically, depending on the desired final thickness of the door anywhere from 1/2 to 1 1/8. These I build just as I would a conventional door, mortice and tenon construction glued with West System, but I do not capture the panels. There is instead a rabbit for the panels so that they are in full contact with the plywood core. If the panels are T&G which is a cottage style many here like I do no rabbits at all, I just fit the pieces and set in epoxy.

By doing it this way final assembly of the two sides to the core is manageable for one man, but help is handy. The individual door sides are bonded to the plywood core using copious amounts of epoxy. To make assembly easier I us a couple of dowels in an out of the way location as locating pins, just two to a side and very short so I don't have to fight them. I use fast hardener, but if it is your first time I would use slow hardener so as to allow more time. I do one side at a time, but I do the other side as soon as the epoxy has cured enough to stop running to avoid any warping due to humidity changes. {I live in the Straits area of Michigan, weather changes fast here}

Here is where carefull selection of the parts showing on the hinge and strike side pays off. The goal is that they, the three pieces that make up the styles look like one piece of wood. If the job warrants the time/money I resaw these parts out of one piece.

There will be epoxy getting on the face side so to make sure there are no finish issues I paint the face side with West System, using 207 hardener, let it soak in well, and clean off the excess with rags and alcohol. Not too much alcohol, you do not want it running into the bolded surfaces.

Door is trimmed to size, hardware fitted and finished as any othe door, but when the conditions are extreme I coat with epoxy/207 Special Clear hardener.

I have several exterior doors facing Northwest on both Lake Superior and Lake Michigan, and the pounding they take in the winter, or summer for that matter is extreme. I have had no failures at all since I have developed this system, and you can not tell them from conventional constructed doors. Another advantage is the ability to do two different designs on the inside and out. I have one Bar door that has been opened and close millions of times in the past 15 years and shows no signs of failure, even though the owner has let the outside go grey with wear and weather.

Couple of words of caution. You will want needle bearing hinges as these doors as you have described are heavy, normal hinges will have a short life. The hinges on the bar door mentioned above are still the originals, but I have tried solid hinges on a house and had failure in a little over two years.

Second point: I seriously recommend a closer! A door this heavy can crush a hand that is in the door when it swings closed. I stuck a carpenters pencil in the first one I made to see what would happen and if that was a little finger it would have been pulp.

I may have forgotten something, I am watching my granddaughter as I type this, so I am having lots of fun interruptions.http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Jason Yeager]

Larry,


Thanks for describing your door making process, that sounds like the ticket. However, I am a little confused, so I have a couple questions for you.......

1. Sounds like the plywood is cut 4" undersize for the entire door size, not 4" undersize for the rails, stiles, etc? For example, a 42" wide by 96" tall door would have a 38" by 92" plywood core.

2. I am assuming you edge band first with 2" edging, resulting in a door with no end grain on the top and bottom? Do you use anything but epoxy to attach the edging? Are the edge pieces mitered to fit the stiles and rails?

3. 2. I am building a 2.25" thick door, so I would start with 2 pieces of 1/2" ply laminated with epoxy, then build 5/8" thick rails, stiles, and panels for each side?

4. The stiles, rails, and panels are all set into epoxy, or just the stiles and rails?

Thanks a ton for you help, sounds like you have an incredible system!!

Jason

[Larry Edgerton]

#1 Correct.

#2 I don't worry about end grain on the bottoms, it is sealed with epoxy. I use a thin spline, 3/32 I believe, to locate and tie the banding to the plywood. I think you may be a bit confused on this, the banding is exactly as thick as the plywood, no more no less. On 12" ply it would be 2" by 1/2" edge glued and splined to the edge of the ply. I don't miter, square cuts with the styles going all the way down.

#3 I would use 3/4 ply and 3/4 sides in this case. I never laminate two sheets together, unnecessary cost and complication. 1 3/4 doors are 1/2" ply and 5/8" sides and so forth.....

#4 Go ahead and set the panels in epoxy. I do not let them float. They will not fail if you glue them correctly, in other words a nice wet coat. I never liked floating panels in exterior doors anyway. The winds here in the winter can push moisture in the door as the panels are dry and have shrunk. Great design for other climates and interior doors, but not so great for unprotected exterior doors. I have built a couple using honeycomb board like they use in airplane cabinets. It is lighter, stronger and more energy efficient, but pricy.

Check out Resource Conservation Technology for their seals. They have the simplist most elegant seal, and it works forever. They are at .conservationtechnology.com

Make sure you have your table perfect before you start. I use winding sticks to make sure all is flat. Simpler than a level and less chance of a mistake. Doesn't have to be level, just flat. Clamp the piece up dry to make sure you have a system that will work in the time allowed.

Order the tech manual from Gougeon, it is the epoxy bible and their line of product and support is amazing. The manual is free I believe. Practice with epoxy on a couple of things first to get the idea, and to experiance how it gets on everything.:)

Most common hardware will not work on a 2 1/4" door. What I do is bore the door at the hardwares max and then do a cove around the inside knob hole so that the knob sets in the door a touch. So say all the hardware will do is 1 3/4 doors I bore in from the outside as if it was a 1 3/4 door and recess the inside handle 1/2 inch. These are just random numbers but you get the idea. The mid grade Schlage hardware will go to about two inch thickness, so you only have a 1/4 inc recess at the knob. Ther eis hardware that will work on thick doors, but I have found it to be more expensive.

On a door the size of the one you are planning I usually use 3-4 1/2" needle bearing hinges.

I do not try to make the door exactly to size, I make it an 1/8 or so over on all sides and trim to size and bevel when done.

[Jason Yeager]

Larry,

Thanks for the clarification. I have a couple more questions for you...

1. You mention you use M & T joinery to construct the doors frames, if you are going to lay the pieces in epoxy and the backside is hidden, can you just use pocket screws (assuming I do a shaker style door)??

2. You mentioned that epoxy gets everywhere so you precoat the faces with West System. Are you staining everything first, then coating with West System prior to assembly (essentially prefinishing the parts)? I don't have much experience with epoxy other than small amounts used in tying flies, and even that is messy.

3. In the first post you mentioned doing T & G panels by just laying the T & G on the plywood. Do you rabbet the stiles and rails to cover the ends of the T & G, or just lay them in between the rails and stiles?

Hopefully I am not encroaching on your patience with all these questions, but I am pretty green and this seems like a great system.

Cheers,

Jason

[Larry Edgerton]

#1 Let your conscience be your guide. As far as I am concerned pocket screws are for crates and such things. I don't have one in my shop. Are you building a door for the ages or a crate?

#2 You misunderstood. I don't precoat, I apply a coat at the same time as glueup, because it is a messy process and there is no getting around getting it on surfaces that are going to show. So while its still wet I coat the whole side. Now all is uniform. Why fight city hall? I don't stain. If they want stain they can have their painter do the finish, or we will use a darker wood. So I can not answer any questions about stain.

#3 If you do a rabbit for T&G panels you will have little holes that collect water at every junction, so you either have to fill them or have water getting into the inside of your door. So I just fit them to a flat. While on the T&G, make your own so that they come out the same size, even at the ends. Start at the middle and go both ways.

[Jason Yeager]

Larry,

Thanks again for your insight. I liked that comment about the crate:D, that was funny.

Jason

[Dick Sylvan]

Larry,
Your method seems similar to a system I saw in Fine Homebuilding where an exterior door was built in three layers, kind of like a sandwich, except that your approach uses plywood as the meat of the sandwich. I had considered something like your system, but was concerned that the front and back layers of solid material would crack since the plywood would not expand (or contract). How do you overcome this problem? Is it the epoxy? I am planning on building carriage doors for my workshop with a single row of windows, 2 to 2-1/4" thick and 4' by 7' with panels in the lower door. If the whole door is "coated" with epoxy can it be easily (and successfully) painted? Here in Houston the conditions are not quite as harsh as yours, but we do have a lot of humidity to deal with. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dick

P.S. - I am planning on using 30 " strap hinges.

[Larry Edgerton]

Larry,
Your method seems similar to a system I saw in Fine Homebuilding where an exterior door was built in three layers, kind of like a sandwich, except that your approach uses plywood as the meat of the sandwich. I had considered something like your system, but was concerned that the front and back layers of solid material would crack since the plywood would not expand (or contract). How do you overcome this problem? Is it the epoxy? I am planning on building carriage doors for my workshop with a single row of windows, 2 to 2-1/4" thick and 4' by 7' with panels in the lower door. If the whole door is "coated" with epoxy can it be easily (and successfully) painted? Here in Houston the conditions are not quite as harsh as yours, but we do have a lot of humidity to deal with. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Dick



P.S. - I am planning on using 30 " strap hinges.


Its the epoxy.

If you have any questions call West System. They have techs answering phones, and they gained their experiance building boats, in fact they still do. They will be able to give you definitive answers.

I am going to write an article for their tech newsletter when I build the next door. I have close to a hundred of them out there with no failures.

These doors are "HEAVY"! Think a great big block of plastic. You may want to buy some needle bearing hinges and have straps welded to them. I did that to a pair of doors last year when they wanted that look. Strap hinges are not very precise.

I used to live in Kerrville Tx., and on occasion I had to go to Houston in the summer for parts. Steamy would be an understatement! The West System would be good in your area to combat the humidity. Painting is not a problem but to be safe I spray with a clear adhesion promoter that is used for urethane bumpers, and then the paint/varnish. I actually use automotive clearcoat on some doors with great success. It is designed to have some give an so works well with wood, If and this is a big if, you fill all of the pores. If not it offgasses in the pores and causes bubbles.

Rambling, sorry......

[Dave Norris]

Hi,
I realize this is an older post, but I was curious if anything special is done to the jamb to support a door this heavy?

[Neal Clayton]

fwiw, i shim the hinge side with full 2xs, a 5-6 inch length behind each hinge. the other side, whatever fits. this of course requires a very wide casing (at least 4 inches). but i work on old stuff that has casings and other such trim that wide ;).

rough/serrated nails at worst, trim screws at best. always 3 hinges.

but if the door is properly balanced, this all shouldn't be an issue. it's the hinge mortise that supports the door, not the jamb or the screws. as long as you're level and plumb, it'll be fine.

[Larry Edgerton]

Agreed.

Keep in mind that your top hinge is pulling out, screws under tension and as such need a firm anchor. Make sure they are long enough to get well back into the framing.

The bottom hinge is under compression, the screws not doing much, but the shims are under a lot of pressure. For this reason I do not use cedar shims on heavy doors, I make some up out of hardwood so they are more stable.

[lowell holmes]

I highly recommend viewing Norm's video showing building an entrance door. I am preparing to build one and will probably use quarter sawn white oak. The panels will have 1/2" min thickness instead of 1/4" as some door shaper cutters provide.

Norm has some excellent suggestions even if you don't use his technique completely.