This is a must read for everyone !!!!!!!

[Bill Wyko]

You guys are gonna owe me one for this tip. I figured out how to get the stains off of your cast iron tops. :D:D:D:D:DThere's a product called Bar keepers friend and Gunk super oil. Mix these 2 into a paste and rub in a circular motion with a microfiber towel like the yellow ones at Costco for about a minute and the stain will be GONE!!!!!!!. I know about 90% of us have always wanted to get those pesky rings off the tops where you didn't mean to set that drink there but it ended up there. The mystery is solved my friends. I get BKF at the BORG. Let me know how it goes for yourselves. Please reply.:D:D:D:D:D

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Bill, I gotta know: How did you ever think of mixing these two products together? I'd like to try it on my saw due to all of its many blemishes. Thanks for the info. Alan

[Lewis Cobb]

:eek: - If this works I'll be a happy camper - I have some stains that have tormented me for years when I look at them. Trouble is, I am up here in Canada and the BORG here is a POS compared to the BORGs in the US. I doubt that they will have this product so I might have to make the 1 hour drive across the border to pick some up :)

Thanks for this tip and I'll be back with the results when I have them. I imagine there'll be others that try this brew before me though so make sure you post pics and feedback !

Cheers,
Lewis

[Bill Wyko]

I called my BIL and told him. He had a stain on a new tool and it worked for him too.:D BKF cleans porcelain and stainless steel like new when used with water. I didn't want to put water on my saw top so I just tried the oil and whallah!!! stains gone.

[Jim O'Dell]

You can usually find the Bar Keeper's Friend product at the grocery stores too. Look on the isle with Comet, Zud, and other such cleaners. But what is the Gunk super oil? Is this just the Gunk cleaner or something I haven't seen? Jim.

[John Keeton]

Thanks Bill, I have flagged this thread for future reference. My last batch of tools could have used this treatment!! So far, I am taking better care of the new Griz tools I bought last year, but I figure it is just a matter of time;) !!

[Bill Wyko]

I don't think the oil is the secret. You can use 3 in 1 oil or marvel or just about anything you want. The BKF really is the secret.:D:D

[phil harold]

I have a table saw that I will try that on
once and a while it 'rains' in my shop if I do not leave the cealing fan on 24/7

I just bought bfk last night for my glass cooking top

kewl!

[Peter Quinn]

Interesting to hear, but I refuse to remove or even consider altering the hard earned battle scars my machines have earned. If they were shiny and clean I might be less inclined to use them for fear they might get dirty.:D Of course I shot a man once with a nail gun for putting a cold beer on my jointer table, but that is another story.:rolleyes:


BKF and oil you say?......

[David DeCristoforo]

"Of course I shot a man once with a nail gun for putting a cold beer on my jointer table..."

Wow... you must have really wanted that beer!

[paul dyar]

Thanks Bill,
I left a treated 2x4 on my tables saw for a few days, and you can still see where it was lying. Was never able to get the stain all out.
paul

[Gary Kvasnicka]

Cool idea, my wife uses bar keepers friend for the kitchen sink and stainless pots and pans, she always says how much she likes it.... I wonder how long it will take her to miss it...and how long it will take her to find it in the shop.:D

[Bill Wyko]

I didn't even make it out the door when she said "WHAT ARTE YOU DOING WITH THAT!!!!!":cool:

[Myk Rian]

I'm going to have to try this. A bird flew in my garage yesterday and left a calling card on my TS.

[Rob Fargher]

:eek: - Trouble is, I am up here in Canada and the BORG here is a POS compared to the BORGs in the US. I doubt that they will have this product so I might have to make the 1 hour drive across the border to pick some up :)


Hi Lewis,

Barkeeper's Friend is commonly available here in Canuckistan. It is primarily an oxalic acid based cleaner, commonly available in cookware stores as it is an excellent cleaner for stainless steel pots. You could also use Lagostina Professional Stainless Steel & Copper Cleanser, $5 at Sears, it's pretty much the same stuff.

--
Cheers,
Rob

[Lewis Cobb]

Hi Lewis,

Barkeeper's Friend is commonly available here in Canuckistan. It is primarily an oxalic acid based cleaner, commonly available in cookware stores as it is an excellent cleaner for stainless steel pots. You could also use Lagostina Professional Stainless Steel & Copper Cleanser, $5 at Sears, it's pretty much the same stuff.

--
Cheers,
Rob

Rob - Will check that out today - thanks very much for the tip !

[Dewey Torres]

This outta be a sticky! Very cools and very needed:cool:

[Gary Herrmann]

I've been using BKF to get stains out of my diamond stones, haven't tried using it with oil to make a slurry though.

[Jim Kountz]

I'm going to have to try this. A bird flew in my garage yesterday and left a calling card on my TS.

I had to laugh when I saw this being the victim of the same thing a couple of times over the years.!!:D:D
Another question for you. How do they "know" when you just waxed your car too??

[warren kafitz]

There are several products called Bar Keepers Friend, I picked up at Walmart this morning the cleanser & polish. I worked on my TS for a while and its did some good, maybe 5% worth, but it's really not worth the effort. I tried both oil and water mixed in a paste, no difference. I tried it on some brass and its a winner for brass, the oxidation just dissapears. I had such high hopes, what a letdown.
Warren Kafitz

[Phil Clark]

I just looked at their website and see many products under their label so which poduct did the job? Also, the site has a locator where their products can be bought, including Canadian locations.

[David Keller NC]

By the way, guys. Bar Keeper's Friend is essentially oxalic acid with some grit and surfactants. Oxalic acid is poisonous, so use caution.

If you want to use pure oxalic (because it's cheaper and you don't want the other stuff in it), you can by a container of oxalic at any Sherman Williams store.

There are, by the way, several other things that you can use to easily remove rust stains off of cast iron and the like - citric acid works well (and is also safe to handle and is non-toxic), and the ultimate is phosphoric acid (which is what "Naval Jelly" is).

However, be aware that oxalic, citric, phosphoric and nitric acids (all of which will selectively remove rust) will leave behind a gray surface. If you want to maintain a polished, bright surface, perhaps the best stuff to use is Brasso (it works just as well on iron as it does on brass).

[Bill Wyko]

The stuff I used is in a gold clenser like can. LOML hid it from me now. :cool: It's not going to remove glue but it does remove water stains and other liquid stains as well. Worked great on my saw.:D

[Chris Padilla]

...and the ultimate is phosphoric acid (which is what "Naval Jelly" is).

Phosphoric acid is also in Coke! I think it gives it that bite when chugging.... :D

[glenn bradley]

The stuff I used is in a gold clenser like can. LOML hid it from me now. :cool: It's not going to remove glue but it does remove water stains and other liquid stains as well. Worked great on my saw.:D

There is the "cleanser and polish" product and the "cookware" product that are packaged similarly. I'd guess yours is the cleanser but would like to confirm.

[Bill Wyko]

Here's before and after pics for any doubt you might have. BTW BKF is 2 bucks at the BORG.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21546032/359945301.jpg
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL2109/11908737/21546032/359945300.jpg

[Ryan Baker]

Ha. Canuckistan, I like that! How are things up there?

BKF is good stuff. I used to have some of that kicking around. I need to do some cleaning too. I made the mistake of leaving a bowl blank on my table saw (I thought it was dry). Turns out it wasn't dry enough. A couple hours later I had a nice rust spot there. Arugh!

[Glen Butler]

I am all for leaving the battle scars, but I some of my tools I picked up used and I don't want someone elses scars on my stuff. Thanks for the tip.

[Lewis Cobb]

Ha. Canuckistan, I like that! How are things up there?


Cold and snowy lad. We're waiting for spring.....:mad:

[Rob Price]

I had always used it with water but was worried about leaving moisture behind, so I only use it when things get bad. I didn't think about using oil with it.

I usually use a 00 or 000 grit steel wool pad when working with it.

I thought I was the only one who had glue stains on the tablesaw... it makes such a great assembly table sometimes.

[Bill Wyko]

HAHA. Almost all my projects do time on the end of the table saw.:D

[Rob Fargher]

Cold and snowy lad. We're waiting for spring.....:mad:

Speak for yourself. :) The daffodils are out, here in Lotusland. :D

--
Cheers,
Rob

[Rob Fargher]

I think oxalic acid is poisonous. You may want to check this out,and keep it off your hands until you do.

Oxalic acid is the reason why rhubarb leaves are poisonous; they have a dangerous level of oxalic acid in them. Rhubarb stems have a lower level of oxalic acid in them.

Oxalic acid is dangerous because it is a chelator. This means that it binds the ionized calcium (Ca++) in your blood plasma. Your heart needs a critical level of Ca++ to contract. If you ingest too much oxalic acid, your heart won't get the Ca++ it needs and your wife will be collecting on your life insurance.

There's no need to be paranoid about it, it's not all that dangerous. But don't eat it by the spoonfull. BTW, citric acid is also a chelator.

--
Cheers,
Rob Fargher, Ph.D.

[David Keller NC]

"Oxalic acid is dangerous because it is a chelator. This means that it binds the ionized calcium (Ca++) in your blood plasma. Your heart needs a critical level of Ca++ to contract. If you ingest too much oxalic acid, your heart won't get the Ca++ it needs and your wife will be collecting on your life insurance.

There's no need to be paranoid about it, it's not all that dangerous. But don't eat it by the spoonfull. BTW, citric acid is also a chelator."

There are some further nuances to this; oxalic can be absorbed through your skin (and in sufficient quantities to cause kidney damage). Not only is oxalic acid toxic by the mechanism you described, it's also poisonous in smaller amounts by causing kidney damage.

The reason is that calcium oxylate is not very water soluble, so the chelated complex precipitates out in the kidneys. One potential effect are kidney stones.

Citric acid, on the other hand, does not form an insoluble complex with calcium, and is far safer. It would take an absolutely massive dose of citric acid to be toxic, and the mode of action wouldn't actually be the citric acid itself, it would cause the blood pH to drop (acidosis).

[Clint Merrill]

Bkf, Bar Keeper's Friend is usually available at most WM stores !

Now, What is all this nonsense about not using the correct name for a product ????? Are we not in a country that still allows FREEDOM OF SPEECH ?
Or has that been given up too ?????? If so, the change we need is certainly what we got in November !!!!!!!

Sorry, but I am new to this forum and also a very concerned AMERICAN.

Clint :mad:

[David G Baker]

Was that a political sneak?

[Jim Dailey]

My question to Rob (Welcome!!!) & Dave about oxalic acid is the following;

if I use a good pair of rubber gloves can I make a paste of oxalic acid & oil to clean my soiled cast iron tops and not trash my kidney's?

Thanks, jim

[Jim Sears]

Bkf, Bar Keeper's Friend is usually available at most WM stores !

Now, What is all this nonsense about not using the correct name for a product ????? Are we not in a country that still allows FREEDOM OF SPEECH ?
Or has that been given up too ?????? If so, the change we need is certainly what we got in November !!!!!!!

Sorry, but I am new to this forum and also a very concerned AMERICAN.

Clint :mad:

I really don't see anything in this thread that should concern you about patriotism. I think if you read through most of the threads on this forum, you'll find that patriotism AND free speech is NOT an issue.

[Rob Price]

Bkf, Bar Keeper's Friend is usually available at most WM stores !

Now, What is all this nonsense about not using the correct name for a product ????? Are we not in a country that still allows FREEDOM OF SPEECH ?
Or has that been given up too ?????? If so, the change we need is certainly what we got in November !!!!!!!

Sorry, but I am new to this forum and also a very concerned AMERICAN.

Clint :mad:

:confused::confused::confused:

I've read through the thread twice, what are you talking about?

[Bill Stoffels]

I will try it this morning and let you know
Bill

[Frank Hagan]

By the way, guys. Bar Keeper's Friend is essentially oxalic acid with some grit and surfactants. Oxalic acid is poisonous, so use caution.

If you want to use pure oxalic (because it's cheaper and you don't want the other stuff in it), you can by a container of oxalic at any Sherman Williams store.

There are, by the way, several other things that you can use to easily remove rust stains off of cast iron and the like - citric acid works well (and is also safe to handle and is non-toxic), and the ultimate is phosphoric acid (which is what "Naval Jelly" is).

However, be aware that oxalic, citric, phosphoric and nitric acids (all of which will selectively remove rust) will leave behind a gray surface. If you want to maintain a polished, bright surface, perhaps the best stuff to use is Brasso (it works just as well on iron as it does on brass).

Bar Keeper's Friend is about 5% oxalic acid so its not too much of a problem. They don't cite an absorbtion issue with it at all. You shouldn't eat it, but you don't even have to wear gloves. The MSDS for it is at this PDF file link: http://www.barkeepersfriend.com/BKF_MSDS_01_09.pdf

Straight oxalic acid does absorb through the skin, and the MSDS for it is at http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/o6044.htm

A greater danger for all of us is dihydrogen monoxide, aka hydric acid, because most of us never take any special precautions. Yet it causes more deaths per year, especially of children, than oxalic acid has in 50 years. MSDS for it is at http://www.dhmo.org/msdsdhmo.html

[Rob Fargher]

My question to Rob (Welcome!!!)

Thanks, I'm learning a lot perusing the Creek. I might even be able to upgrade my status from Jr. Amateur Woodbutcher to Sr. Amateur Woodbutcher. :D


if I use a good pair of rubber gloves can I make a paste of oxalic acid & oil to clean my soiled cast iron tops and not trash my kidney's?


Surely. And it's a good idea, too, as you won't have to clean your hands afterwards. :) Seriously, though, you're liable to get more oxalic acid in your body from eating rhubarb pie than using a product like BKF. And, yeah, it's a toxic substance but not all that dangerous. Certainly nowhere near James Bond black pill dangerous! There have been massively more people killed by the extremely common everyday chemical hydric acid (http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html) (AKA dihyrogen oxide) than oxalic acid.

I'm thinking of trying it on my sawtop in a paste made with WD-40.

--
Cheers,
Rob

[Montgomery Scott]

Stains are irrelevant. They do not impair the function of the machine ergo they do not need to be addressed.

[joe Katzenberger]

Peter, when you are in South Carolina, stop by the house. I will let you grab a beer from the shop refrigerator. You don't have to shoot a guy with your nailer just to get a beer!

[Bill Wyko]

Sorry MS. I feel otherwise. A metal top that's not cared for can lead to build up of other contaminates and etching of the metal. It's all about caring and respect for the tools.:)

[Norman Hitt]

Stains are irrelevant. They do not impair the function of the machine ergo they do not need to be addressed.

They DO, "IF" you're absolutely SICK of looking at them, (which leads to PO'd woodworker, thus an UNSAFE woodworker).:D:D:D

[Mark Kosmowski]

My wife once got a coworker convinced that Lake Ontario's DHMO contamination problem was a severe health risk that and that the government should step in and clean up the DHMO. :D

Good to know about this cleaning possibility.

I like to wear nitrile gloves when using most cleaning products in the shop.

[Clifford Mescher]

Stains are irrelevant. They do not impair the function of the machine ergo they do not need to be addressed.
That's what I told my LOML about my shirts. She said she is gonna buy me a bib. Clifford.

[John Schumer]

Interesting to hear, but I refuse to remove or even consider altering the hard earned battle scars my machines have earned. If they were shiny and clean I might be less inclined to use them for fear they might get dirty.:D Of course I shot a man once with a nail gun for putting a cold beer on my jointer table, but that is another story.:rolleyes:


BKF and oil you say?......

Ahhhhh.....
You sound just like me ! Hey, Don't Set That There !!

[Lewis Cobb]

Right, so I was too lazy to look for an equivalent product to BKF here in Canada - past searches for other products has finally hardened me to apply my efforts to getting it in the US and stop beating my head against the wall or getting reamed on the inflated prices here in Canada if I do ultimately find it.....but I digress !

I got a buddy of mine to pick up a can of BKF at a Home Depot in the US last weekend. I just tried it out and contrary to at least one other poster here that said it did not work for him - it worked for me – in fact I could not be happier. Hats off to Bill for putting us on to this.

I have a set of replacement wings for a PM2000 but they, like the original ones were rusted on the edges - looks like some water got to them under the plastic and packing grease. It was not severe, but brown / red and definitely a torment to look at. The fellows at PM were only too happy to send out yet another set, but I figured I'd give this technique a try. For $1.97 a can it costs less than most visits to the coffee shop.

Here's the before and after. You can judge for yourself. It's not 100.0000% perfect. Rust, being an oxidation of the surface does remove some metal and therefore etches the surface a bit. When you remove the rust, you do not add this metal back. If you get the light just the right way, you can see a very faint shadow of where the rust was – i.e. the etched portion of the surface where the oxidation was - but the color of the surface is all the same. I tried to get a picture of this shadow but it's impossible. Suffice it to say, I am very happy with the results and this is on a brand new saw that I have paid good money for AND I am generally a fussy sort.

BEFORE
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/BeforeA.jpg

AFTER
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/AfterA.jpg
This process is really worth a try - perhaps results will vary depending on the severity of the rust and / or stain.

And a couple more -

BEFORE
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/BeforeB.jpg

AFTER
http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/AfterB.jpg
Here's the regime that I used for reference -

1) Small plastic mixing cup with about 2 tablespoons of BKF
2) Mix in some 3-in-1 oil to get a wet paste - a bit more watery than peanut butter - sort of like the consistency of crackfill mud for sheetrock
3) Using a small toothpick I spread some of this “brew” onto the spot on the table - generally trying to keep the area about 1-2 sq. inches in size at a time.
4) Wait 1 minute and let it soak a little
5) Take a paper towel and with your finger rub in the direction of the grinding
6) The rust will start to disappear after about 10-15 seconds. I rubbed about 6 or 8 times more after I saw the last spot of rust disappear. Don't rub too hard or long as it will start to burnish (polish) the surface. Better to go light and then have to do a second pass.
7) Put some 3-in-1 oil on the table and wipe the spot clean
8) I then followed with some WD-40 to strip the oil off
9) Followed that with some mineral spirits to take the WD-40 off
10 Boeshield to protect the surface - wipe off when wet, wait for it to dry and then sort of buff it smooth
11) Johnson's paste wax on top

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/146_46551.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/146_46531.jpg

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn286/LHC_02/BKF%20Rust%20Removal/146_46561.jpg


I think I may post this up on a separate thread as well as here as this reply is fairly far down in the pile and the thread has been quiet for a few days.

Cheers,
Lewis