How would you build stair treads

[Glen Butler]

My customer wants stain grade stair treads and risers. I have been back and forth on the best way to do this. Most likely these will be done in rustic cherry.

Option 1: As the cherry is not available much wider than 8" and I need 10.25" deep treads I was thinking of butterflying 6" stock for better matched grain and gluing to poplar. Then I would attach the bullnose to that, or glue everything up then shape the bullnose. Pros: the treads will appear nearly seemless. Cons: the bullnose will be more pronounced as an edging.

Option 2: Mill 4/4 stock with a tongue and groove and match grain to try for that solid look. Pros: Less labor intensive as above, wouldn't have to attach a thicker edging for the bullnose. Cons: They will look more like slats.

Option 3: Buy 12/4 stock which I can get wide enough. Mill to specs. Pros: Very solid looking one piece tread. Cons: Much more expensive, and I fear cupping in solid stock that wide.

[Richard Wolf]

Most tread manufactures are now making engineered treads which are similar to your option #1. Instead of using poplar as your filler material, they use much lower quality grade, same type wood. In your case cherry. It is not uncommon to find knots, sap wood and any other nasty looking wood on the inside layer. The top and bottom surface are covered with - 3/16" solid wood. While both top and bottom have the good surface, most manufactures have a better side, so they are not reversible.
Very few treads are ever solid 10.25" pieces of wood nowadays and it is standard to look at glued up treads. Of course with cherry, grain can be very different from one piece to another so butterflying or careful color matching should be in order.

http://www.mantels-stairs.com/item156807.ctlg

Richard

[pat fowler]

Just a little curious, but I have not heard the term "butterflying" before in reference to woodworking. Is it the same as book-matched ? Thanks for any reply. :confused:

[Glen Butler]

Resawing on the bandsaw then opening the cut like butterfly wings for a matched edge.

[Brad Shipton]

I am just finishing some open tread stairs where I used 8/4 Jatoba. The Jatoba stock I usually get is around 6" wide, so this project involved a glue up. I did have a bit of a problem with cupping in a couple of them. After looking carefully at them I noticed I could have flipped a few pieces to have reduced the problem. I still managed to make tenons and they fit the stringers.

Here I cannot see a good reason to use 12/4 or 8/4 since I assume you will not see the bottom of the treads. I agree with our resident stair expert that the stave core tread option makes the most sense. I am not too sure about the rustic option though. You could end up fixing too many knot holes. I would be tempted to use FAS to avoid stock problems.

Brad

[Terry Brogan]

There's a guy at
http://zacaiwoodworks.com/dovetreads.aspx
who dovetails contrasting woods together, both returns and nosings.

[Glen Butler]

There's a guy at
http://zacaiwoodworks.com/dovetreads.aspx
who dovetails contrasting woods together, both returns and nosings.

Those look pretty cool and a neat way to get around the need to match grain. Sadly I know my customer would not like it.

[Frank Drew]

Glen,

Why not option #2 -- just glue up enough cherry to make your tread widths? Most residential flooring is in narrow widths (is that what you mean by "like slats"?) so I'd be surprised if folks have entirely different expectations for stair treads, or would really even notice.

Option #3: If you resawed the 12/4 material once you'd almost certainly have enough thickness left to plane out any subsequent cupping; then you'd have your one-board treads. But getting three flat 3/4" pieces out of one 12/4? Nope, can't be done, unless they saw 12/4 extra thick where you're from.

Option #1 seems pretty labor intensive.

[I've heard of butterflying shrimp, or chicken breasts, but not lumber; maybe you've introduced a new term to the board, although I suspect most will stick with bookmatch.]

[Glen Butler]

Ha Ha alright I will leave butterflying to the food industry and will use the bookmatch term.

Yeah I was hoping to resaw the 12/4 and get three treads, but does not seem reasonable. I could go yet a step further and resaw the 12/4 into 3/16" pieces and not have to bookmatch for option 1. But in the end, it is not wrong to have slats (yes like hardwood floors) to make up the treads. Sounds like whatever way I choose they will look fine. I do like Richards method.

Thank you.

[Jim Kountz]

There's a guy at
http://zacaiwoodworks.com/dovetreads.aspx
who dovetails contrasting woods together, both returns and nosings.

Wow Ive got a few issues with that. First being if its all solid wood hes got one nasty crossgrain situation going on and secondly I and this is just me, dont care for that look at all. It looks kinda..............well............weird!!

[Frank Drew]

I agree, Jim; sort of gilding the lily.

Dovetails can be, and often are, overdone.

[george wilson]

Dovetails cross grain are rather pointless. It,to me,shows a person with technique but lack of taste. The dovetails across the grain only weaken the joint,which should really be splined. He eliminated half of the glue surface to the edge of the stair by dovetailing. When the stair shrinks or swells,some of those dovetails will be sheared off at their narrowest necks.At least,with a splined joint,that would not break anything.

I agree with Jim and Frank.

[Peter Quinn]

3/4" thick treads? Reason I ask is all the treads I make at work (more than I care to think about) are 5/4 that finish at 1 1/6", it would take 12/4 to make that up in a book match. Most of our standard treads are 2 board glue ups, and when ever possible I will take the two pieces from the same board. Frankly for a rustic cherry job I would not go crazy trying to make the grain match seamlessly and would only resort to book match if some insane architect or mental designer were involved and spec'd it that way, and in that case I'm sure my boss would charge him accordingly (a small fortune).

If the stuff is real rustic you might be able to find #1 common in those widths and be done with it, assuming knots and sap are allowed? I love to see a spec on a rustic job that reads "Rustic, no knots, no sap, no pitch, even color, matched grain....." What the bleep bleep bleeping bleep is rustic about that? I made 2000SF of mitered hearing bone flooring in walnut once that all had to be perfect so it could then be installed and "Antiqued" by another shop that specializes in such things. Thats like giving a Gladiator a massage before he goes to fight a hungry lion....

[Chris Weishaar]

Well I spent the weekend cutting off the first 3 treads of our stairs to change them to a new design. In the interest of time and to match the rest of the existing treads I picked up oak treads from the local lumber yard. They mill and assemble them there. All of the treads came 12" wide and were glued up from 2 or 3 individual pieces. This works well with oak and is certainly acceptable. It may be more noticable in rustic cherry though. Matching tones and grain with cherry is a bit more challenging than oak.

While working on them the wife said "hey those are just glued up, you could have done that yourself". I replied that of course I could but does she want the stairs done that will allow the installation of the new wood flooring or live with rosin paper over the subfloor for a couple more weekends as I put off other project and make the treads!

Chris

[Simon Dupay]

Option 1: As the cherry is not available much wider than 8" and I need 10.25" deep treads I was thinking of butterflying 6" stock for better matched grain and gluing to poplar. Then I would attach the bullnose to that, or glue everything up then shape the bullnose. Pros: the treads will appear nearly seemless. Cons: the bullnose will be more pronounced as an edging.

Option 2: Mill 4/4 stock with a tongue and groove and match grain to try for that solid look. Pros: Less labor intensive as above, wouldn't have to attach a thicker edging for the bullnose. Cons: They will look more like slats.

Option 3: Buy 12/4 stock which I can get wide enough. Mill to specs. Pros: Very solid looking one piece tread. Cons: Much more expensive, and I fear cupping in solid stock that wide.

Don't worry too much about grain matching, it's a tread, not fine furniture.

[Glen Butler]

3/4" thick treads? Reason I ask is all the treads I make at work (more than I care to think about) are 5/4 that finish at 1 1/6", it would take 12/4 to make that up in a book match. Most of our standard treads are 2 board glue ups, and when ever possible I will take the two pieces from the same board. Frankly for a rustic cherry job I would not go crazy trying to make the grain match seamlessly and would only resort to book match if some insane architect or mental designer were involved and spec'd it that way, and in that case I'm sure my boss would charge him accordingly (a small fortune).

They will appear to be 1.5" thick after I get done with the glue up and shaping. I am just having a problem finding rustic grade cherry thicker than 4/4. I went to look at some projects she likes and I am getting a better feel for her taste. There will be no need to bookmatch or even grain match too much for that matter. Sure wish I could find some cheap 5/4 cherry.

[Chris Padilla]

So what method are going for, Glen? Also, where do you live? Creekers might point you to some good lumber shops if we knew where you were at. You can fill this in on your USER CP (user profile) if you like.

[Glen Butler]

So what method are going for, Glen? Also, where do you live? Creekers might point you to some good lumber shops if we knew where you were at. You can fill this in on your USER CP (user profile) if you like.

Mostly option 2. I am having trouble finding 5/4 rustic cherry. I need to check another supplier in my area first but if I cannot find it, I will join 2 6" planks and either double up the leading edge or glue on a 3/4 x 1.5 inch tall piece to the leading edge, then shape a bull nose.

[Chris Padilla]

Ah, Utah, the land of NO CHERRY! We're both on the wrong side of the Mississippi to get any decent cherry...it is all in Pennsylvania! :(