New Shop - Time for some input

[Guy Germaine]

LOML and I are talking about building my new workshop. I'm going to start getting bids over the next few weeks. I'm looking at (hopefully) a 24 X 48 building with 10' walls, and possibly a Gambrel roof. If you were building this, what would you do, not do, etc?

As for CD - I'm thinking about running the main 6" trunk lines under the floor to the table saw and each wall. Then running lines along the base of each wall to the other machines.

[Ben Cadotte]

The only thing I can add besides congrats. Is to use 3/4 ply for interior walls, so when placing things on the wall you don't have to worry about lining up on studs all the time. And for the gambrel roof, I would take the time to overbuild the floor joists. It would only cost just a little bit extra to increase the load ratings. When you start hanging things from the ceiling and after a few years when the 2nd floor storage is filling up with lumber, you will thank yourself for the stronger floor / ceiling. :D

[Mark Norman]

Put in a good sub panel with a lot of breakers so you can put outlets everywhere.
Plan out best you can where the stationary machines will be set up so you can put outlets in the floor for them.
Natural light is good but windows take up valuable wall space so place them up high on the walls.
Comfort heat is important as well but should be well distributed so the registers dont blow dust around.
For a shop that size I would want a roll-up garage door and consider a trolly hoist built into the cieling. It could double as a joist to hold up the loft.
Good luck with the build Guy!!

[Jim O'Dell]

Congrats! Be sure to section off maybe 12 X 12 or 14 X 14 on one end of the building for a finishing room. Part of the space between that and the wall across the 24' length could be a small office, and maybe a bathroom. The rest shop space.
I'm personally not a fan of the duct work in the floor, unless you have a basement under the shop for storage and can put the DC there. The thing that bothers me the most is if using a cyclone, where you come up from the floor to go to the cyclone inlet would make for a sharp turn, and a short inlet pipe length, all contributing to extra turbulence in the pipe, and therefore possibly resulting in less separation in the cyclone. That wouldn't happen if the cyclone was under the floor of the shop. This would also make changing the ductwork a lot easier. If you use a slab floor or a pier and beam construction, and you use a cyclone, changes in the duct work are impossible for the slab floor, and a pain for a pier and beam construction, but doable. Well placed overhead drops are not a problem for most of us, and can be changed easily if need be.
Ditto Marks suggestion for a big electrical box with lots of slots. Usually that means a 200 amp service box, but you could easily put a smaller main breaker if need be. My 200 amp Square D box came without a main breaker, and I purchased it separately. Since I have a separate service entrance, and not a sub box, I went ahead and got a 200 amp main, but could have easily gotten by with a 100 amp main.
If you have the means, for heating, do the radiant in floor heat. You get comfortable heat, with no air movement to disturb the dust.
Swing open doors would be my first choice. They don't interfere with your shop space at all. Next would be to see if a regular garage door could be modified to go up into the attic space instead of curving along the ceiling. That way it pulls up out of the way. Never seen it done, but wonder if it wouldn't work.
Maybe put an exhaust fan in the wall up high to exhaust heat in the summer. Would also help exhaust dust floating around, as well as create a breeze to help keep you cool if you don't A/C the shop.
Like others have said and will say, lots of outlets. In my 20 X 24 shop, and attached 12 X 14 finishing room, I have 8 220 volt circuits, all dedicated only 3 in use right now, and 6 110 volt circuits. 2 for lighting, 4 for electrical outlets for tools. And additional spaces for more if need be.
Decide what you will do with the floor if you are using slab construction. If you want to do the epoxy paint, do it before you move tools and cabinets in.
Plan for some strategically placed windows for ventilation on nice days. Couple that with the above exhaust fan will create a comfortable shop on nice days.
Have fun with the design! Jim.

[Ray Newman]

FWIW: In ’01, we were in the same situation: new house & new shop (30’x36’), as well as retirement. Some of this you may already know or may not apply. But I was thinking about other who may be doing the same in the future.

Depending upon your expertise & energy level (as well as a high frustration toleration), you maybe able to do some of the work yourself. Here’s a few thoughts based on our experiences….

1.) Check w/ the local bldg dept about any restrictions as to the size of any out bldgs. If you’re bldg in a community, also check on CCR’s, ordinances, etc. Don’t take a contractor’s or a Realtor’s word—they are out to sell property, make a profit.

During our property/home search, we saw some CCR ‘s that had specific time-frames as to when you can operate your shop as well as how high & big it can be & then the building must be approved by the all homeowners. One difficult person can ruin your dreams. I know a guy who could not build the shop he wanted because of CCR’s--a shop was considered a “business” under the CCR’s. Luckily, he found out before he signed on the “dotted line.”

2.) Design the shop to fit in w/ the house—same roof design & materials, same siding, windows, etc. This will also enhance the $$ of your property. By our 7 home development, we were the only ones to do this. A few other homeowners have built out buildings, shops, extra garages w/o thought to design, overall size, materials, etc., & it shows. Thank God I don’t have to look @ them. Our shop is located so I can look @ the driveway when the door is open, & all tools face the driveway—so no one approaches unnoticed….

3.) Insulate the bldg & house w/ the maximum amount of insulation possible. We did this & along w/ a heat pump, it has saves us a good $150.00 + per month in the winter compared to what the neighbors w/ smaller homes pay for utilities. Insulation is cheap compared to ever increasing energy costs. Install highly efficient windows. Make sure the slab is insulated & has a moisture barrier. If you plan for a roll-up door, get an insulated unit & a garage door opener. Makes a world of difference when it’s raining & you need to load/unload.

4.) Install a highly efficient heat/cooling system. Energy costs will not decrease. A wood stove in a shop building will more than likely increase your fire insurance premium. When I sought estimates for homeowner’s coverage, that was the 1st thing that agents asked about the shop & house: do you have a wood burning stove?

5.) Security. Windows about 5-6’ from the floor to keep our prying eyes. This will provide for more storage room underneath. Have shop wired for telephone & alarm system.

Install a phone that can be reached from sitting on the floor & has the keypad in the handset. This way if you injure yourself and can reach the phone, you can use it. An intercom hooked up to the house might be worthwhile.

TV & a computer can be a dangerous distraction when running machinery.

6.) Electrical: receptacles @ least 52” above floor so sheet goods will not block them. Put in a large shop panel in a convenient location. Take pictures of wiring before closing up walls.

My never have the need circuit for a welder, but you just may have the need for one some day -- or one will unexpectedly follow you home some day :)--& it’s always easier to install a dedicated welder circuit when building.

Install more than ample electrical receptacles, as it is much easier to do during construction than a later add-on. Ceiling receptacles are also handy. Have the breaker box wired to shut off all power except to lights & maybe a few 110 circuits when you're not around. A good idea if you have children around.

7.) Lights: if installing florescent, look @ Fine Wood Working, # 153, Winter 2001/2002, which has an article on the high efficient T8 lights & how to plan lighting needs. Put lights in a series of switches/banks so you don’t illuminate the whole shop when you don’t need to.

Check w/ your local utility about lighting needs. Some of the larger companies have people who are trained to figure lighting needs. & age has a way of requiring more & brighter light:mad:.

Skylights (speaking from personal experience w/ prior residence here) are nice, but they are a place where leaks can & will start, are hard to seal up (if they open) & depending on size, are an invitation for miscreants to enter your property. My former neighbor once was robbed – the thief broke a skylight to get in.

8.) Wood floor is more comfortable & tool friendly.

9.) Make a large scale drawing of the shop & cardboard cut outs of the tools & benches. Really helps to aid in tool placement for efficient workflow.

10.) #9, above, will help you plan for an efficient dust collection system, which is a God-send if you work when the shop is closed up.

Depending on the size, you might consider a separate room for the DC & air compressor to deaden the noise. Some choose to vent the dust outside, but some localities prohibit this & you’ll also being removing warm/cool air from the shop.

While I really don't like the looks of a ceiling & wall mounted DC ducts, changes are much easier to such a system design than those placed in the walls or floor. Floor sweeps are really nice!

11.) Interior walls/ceiling: drywall or 3/4" plyw'd painted white to reflect light. Hang shop cabinets w/ French cleats. Ceiling height is a matter of preference & what you intend to do. W/ plyw'd, you'll never need took for a stud....

12.) Keep the shop only for you. My spouse & I agree that I don’t put anything in her doll studio & she doesn’t or temporarily place anything in my side of the shop. The “temporary” & seasonal storage items will never leave & will multiply. This has happened to a neighbor.

13.) Our shop was plumbed for a bathroom, but only a deep cold water “slop” sink was installed. Very handy to have. The local tax collector loves to see a bathroom in an outbuilding or shop & will think “ah ha – higher appraisal; more tax $$.”

14.) If you have walkways placed around the house & shop, install 4” or even larger diameter PVC pipe in the ground @ the corners & other locations before the concrete is poured. That way you always have access if you want to run an irrigation system, outdoor lighting, etc.

(Once saw a shop about 12-15’ from the garage & the owner had a buried piece of 8” PVC connecting the two. In the pipe, he snaked a large diameter air compressor hose, so he could fill the truck tires w/o moving the vehicles outside.)

15.) Use building materials that will need the minimum amount of maintenance. Since we reside in a quasi-wooded area w/ a not very close fire department, the roof on both house & shop is cement tile & the siding is Hardi Plank. Don't become a slave to keeping the house/shop looking nice or the landscaping perfect.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Great info on this thread so far, I'm taking notes too! :D

[Ben Cadotte]

I also forgot to mention.

A few communities tax outbuildings differently deppending on the type of doors it has. I my last town, father in laws town, and my childhood home town. All taxed buildings with sliding doors as barns. Put an overhead garage door on it and its taxed at the higher garage rate. So you may want to check your local govt about the posibility of lower taxes on the new building.

Also nice thing about sliding doors is you can make them thick and insulate them well. Some rubber seals and you have a good much more energy efficient door.

[Paul Snowden]

These is all great info.

[Guy Germaine]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm taking this all down and making a list :D

[Ken Higginbotham]

I would draw it all out in SketchUp... :)

[Scott T Smith]

Very good info thus far.

Re electrical, use at least a 40 position single phase panel. Also, consider running a conduit infrastructure under the floor from your panel to a few locations on each wall; that will allow you to easily pull additional wires for future equipment. My new shop has several 3" conduits that go from the panel to a box centrally located in each wall, which makes it easy to pull additional wiring.

If possible, consider using 4" electrical boxes with dual 120V receptacles around the shop. Put the receptcales on a different circuit (and different leg in the panel); this will provide you with an easy way to covert to a 20A 240 circuit anywhere in the shop, and also provide you with 40A of 120V power available at any location (20A on each 120 receptacle).

Locate the panel in a central location so as to limit the length of your conduit runs.

A separate room for the DC and air compressor is a great feature. Make the room large enough so that you can install some baffles in between the equipment and the wall, and then design the wall with openings that will accept furnace filters for air return to the shop (won't lose the conditioned air).

Think of material storage - how do you get wood in and out of the shop and where do you store it for easy access yet being out of the way. Perhaps large doors at each end of the shop - one next to your equipment for finished project removal, and the other at the other end for raw material in.

Consider setting aside an area with a sink, fridge and TV.

[Don Bullock]

Congratulations Guy. I just built my shop for my retirement. While I would have loved to do all the things that have been listed so far on this thread I had to consider all the costs involved. It's amazing how quickly things add up, especially the unexpected costs. When I say that they were unexpected I mean that they were things I hadn't planned on when I originally looked into building my shop. My initial plan was to get the building up and add to it at a later date.

Most of my unexpected costs were a result of local building codes. The most expensive turned out to be the permits. They totaled more than $5,000 for my unattached 24' x 40' shop/garage and would have been much higher if I had attached it to the house. The second highest shot to the budget came from the required fire sprinkler system. From what I've heard from others, this is becoming a requirement in many areas. Because I decided to go with PVC pipe for that system instead of copper I was required to cover the walls and ceiling with drywall. I decided that I needed insulation as well before everything was sealed up. While I had planned to do both of these later it worked out much better to do them before I moved into the building, but added quite a bit to my initial building cost. Another added cost was the requirement of Hardibacker concrete board to all exterior surfaces on the building as required by code. This addition set me back another $1,000. The building department also required a "professionally drawn," fully scaled plot plan of my entire property that added some to the unexpected costs as well. Fortunately my builder supplied all the required architectural plans and detailed engineering reports needed. Even with their "expertise" with local codes, etc. the building department required changes that not only delayed the build, it added costs that they had to absorb.

For my building, since I am definitely not a framer or one who has done any construction work, I had to have it built. After a lot of research by friends living in the area where we are moving and myself, I decided that the only way I was going to afford the size of building I wanted was to go with Tuff Shed. The concrete slab and building together (including paint), here in Southern California, came in right at $30,000 plus all the extras mentioned above. This was far less than any quotes that I got for a "stick built" building 3/4 the size. In fact one quote for a three car garage with an unfinished interior and minimum electrical came in at $70,000. For me this was a great decision, but it might not be a good one for others. Not only did I save money I got a fully built, painted building on my site in four weeks (slight problems with the building inspector caused a two week delay of final inspection) whereas a "stick built" building would have taken several months.

[Guy Germaine]

Thanks for the tip on Tuff Shed Don. I'm going to drive over that and see what they have. Are you happy with it so far?

[Don Bullock]

Thanks for the tip on Tuff Shed Don. I'm going to drive over that and see what they have. Are you happy with it so far?

Guy, I'm very happy with the building although I haven't moved into it yet. It actually matches our home and looks great next to it. Here is a picture taken from the hill behind that gives you some idea what it looks like. Please excuse the lack of landscaping.

114517

This is a picture from the front section of our property (over an acre of land) looking up at the garage and house.

114521

According to the Tuff Shed website a 24' x 30' garage in your area is $10,769 without paint and windows. That's the largest size that they list on their website, but they do build them bigger. You'll have to see if they do the concrete work or if that has to be done by someone else. My local Tuff Shed sales office didn't do the concrete so I had to find someone who would do the work according to their specifications. The other thing that I had to do was to get all the permits using their plans and engineering specifications.

[Guy Germaine]

What web site did you look at? The Tuff shed site that I went to showed buildings up 30 X 40. If I get a chance this weekend, I'm going to take a drive over and look at them. I have some friends in the trades, so I can hopefully get a break on the concrete work. Amazing what you can get done with a few pork steaks and a couple cases of beer. :D

[Don Bullock]

I went to the tuff Shed site, but for some reason when I input the Zip Code for you it comes up with their St. Louis, MO store. That site only lists garages up to 24' x 30' like I stated. Very strange, but I'm glad that you found a bigger one listed. If you can get a break on the concrete work that will make a big difference no matter who builds your building. Perhaps your friends know of someone who will build your shop cheaper too.

[Chris Fite]

I gleaned all the knowledge that I could from this site and others prior to building my shop. After three years, I find some things good enough to recommend quickly to others.

First of all, the motion activated light just inside the door. There is really nothing quite so nice as not having to grope for a light switch when entering the building. One incandescent bulb is enough light to get inside and fetch something without having to wait for the metal halide lamps to warm up. It turns off after 5 minutes, so I can just walk away.

I shied away from the traditional roll up door as being awkward and hard to insulate. I installed two 36 inch exterior doors swinging out. This does not take up floor space, requires no overhead structure, and allows plenty of room for moving things in and out. The doors line up with the table saw, so I can go straight from the truck to the saw.

The radiant heat in the floor is wonderful. No flames, no vents, no filters, no drafts.

I had awnings made for the doors, so that I can leave the doors open for ventilation without worrying about water splashing into the shop when it rains.

I installed a 36 inch whole house fan in the upper center of the rear wall for ventilation. (12 foot ceiling) It draws a breeze through the main work area.

I put R13 insulation in the walls and R49 in the attic, so my heating costs are low. The area is shaded, so my unairconditioned building rarely gets over 80 degreees or so in the summer.

The epoxy coating on the floor makes it easy to clean.

I wish that I had installed a sink.

[glenn bradley]

Good ideas one and all here. I'll just say; wall cleats, wall cleats (french cleats that is).

[Larry Browning]

I have not read every post in the thread in detail, hopfully no one has mentioned this already. I have something to think about NOT doing. Please consider not having a dedicated finishing room. I have one that never got completely finished. That's right, an unfinished finishing room:o. By unfinished, I mean no cabinets or tables and no ventilation system. This room has turned into a big storage room. I now do my finishing in a open area in the middle of the main shop which works out ok for me. Honestly, even if it had gotten finished, I think it would still have ended up being a storage room.
For the hobbiest (me) finishing really takes up very little time in the building of a project. I know for me, I will spend maybe 2 or 3 days finishing a project that has taken me several months to build. Plus, I am not generating new dust while the finishing process is going on, like in a pro shop. Having an area in the shop that is used for finishing, but can also be used for assembly or other activities would be a better use of that valuable shop floor space.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Rob Damon]

Lots of great advise here already.

I will add one. Your are building a large shop, which should have plenty of room for everything now and the future. I had a 24'x50' building for my retirement shop and thought the same thing.

I went through several arrangements and had locked into one, until I looked at the flow of wood through the various tools. I went through several more layouts before I was satisfied with the sizes of wood I was expecting to use.

I did my layout in AutoCad that showed the tools and the wood in and out.

This help me.

Rob

[Charles Shenk]

I have a dinky garage shop and will for the forseable future. Land costs about a million an acre in the 650 area code. :( It's too bad since I'm a general contractor and could do it all myself.

With most of the best ideas already being shared, when I dream of shop spaces, I love the idea of an upstairs loft space to hang out in and store various items. Also, I would put in a sound system and a wireless connection. Don't forget the shop sink and good place to store chemicals.

[James A. Wolfe]

Guy,
I'm in the process of building my new shop (floor gets poured tomorrow). I found the plans for my shop at:
http://www.barnplans.com/showcase/main.cgi?month=feb00
Of course, I modified them to fit my idea but the truss supported gambrel roof gives me a clear span on the second floor and makes framing simpler.
Jim

[Guy Germaine]

Thanks Guys. I appreciate all the input. Right now, I'm looking at the Tuff Shed. I know I could probably build it cheaper by doing it myself, I just don't have the time. On top of that, once the footings and slab are poured, I can have the building up in a day. If I do this myself, it will probably take me 6 - 8 months to get it done.

As it is right now, the plan is for:
10' ceilings
6" Dust collection trunk lines in the floor - A center line to the table saw, and one line to each of the long walls
Electrical outlets 50" (or so) off the floor, about every 6 feet. Wired so I can convert to 220 when necessary.
Electrical outlets in the floor for the table saw and workbench/outfeed table
1/2" plywood on all walls, covered with drywall
10 8' T8 fluorescent lights.
In-Floor radiant heat
Hot/Cold water - Sink and Toilet
Phone/wireless Internet