Flat panel doors - plywood?

[David Damiano]

I'm getting ready to replace our kitchen cabinet doors with new shaker style flat panel doors. I will be using cherry. The problem I'm having is finding suitable cherry plywood for the panels. Seems most 1/4" cherry ply is grade A4 - good only 1 side. What is the common practice for dealing with this? Should I use the A4 grade and not worry how the back looks. I would see it every time I open the doors :(. Or I could use 1/2" G2S which is available locally (Orlando) and make a rabbet to fit the groove. I really do not want to use solid wood and then have to worry about gluing up wide flat panels. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
David

[Michael Donahue]

I'm getting ready to replace our kitchen cabinet doors with new shaker style flat panel doors. I will be using cherry. The problem I'm having is finding suitable cherry plywood for the panels. Seems most 1/4" cherry ply is grade A4 - good only 1 side. What is the common practice for dealing with this? Should I use the A4 grade and not worry how the back looks. I would see it every time I open the doors :(. Or I could use 1/2" G2S which is available locally (Orlando) and make a rabbet to fit the groove. I really do not want to use solid wood and then have to worry about gluing up wide flat panels. Any suggestions?

Thanks,
David

I think 1/2" rabbited panels would be a good bet. Are you cutting your grooves on the table saw? Since the 1/4" ply will be undersized you probably can't use your dado cutter. I've had to make about a dozen doors with 7/32"ish plywood and had to use a regular blade to make the cuts, making two passes to keep it centered and alot of trial and error to set up. Also, I think the doors will feel more substantial with thicker panels :)

[Roger Jensen]

I am planning to use 1/2 inch plywood and back cut it to fit the groves in the frame. Besides better plywood, back cutting the plywood will allow me to get it just the right thickness. Since 1/4 inch plywood is slightly undersized I don't want to worry about if it is loose. I also like the more solid feel of the 1/2 inch plywood.

[David Werkheiser]

David, you are on the right track in using 1/2" material for panels, 1/4" ply is under sized for the grove.
Instead of ply I would use veneered MDF, which is more stable and consistent in thickness. The main reason I switched was the sanding defects in ply, which I haven't had with MDF.
DavidW

[Fred Hargis]

I would go with the 1/2", and I would also glue the panels into the doors...makes them unbelievably solid and stable.

[Russ Boyd]

I wouldn't glue the panels. I know it's ply which is FAIRLY stable, but still wouldn't glue. Maybe a drop of glue, say in the corners, but better yet, space balls or a drop of silicon randomly space would be a better option IMO. Interested to see what the other guys say about that.

[Jamie Buxton]

I wouldn't glue the panels. I know it's ply which is FAIRLY stable, but still wouldn't glue. Maybe a drop of glue, say in the corners, but better yet, space balls or a drop of silicon randomly space would be a better option IMO. Interested to see what the other guys say about that.

There is no reason to float plywood panels. Plywood does not expand or contract. If you get serious about your searching, you can find actual numbers on it. You have to search very hard because the numbers are so small that nobody pays any attention to it. If you glue in the panels, they act as a great big gusset to all the corner joinery, making the door (or the drawer) much much stronger. You also assure that the panel doesn't rattle.

[Frank Drew]

David,

I think you'd be happier with 1/2" material, either veneer core or fiber core (mdf) as David Werkheiser suggests; maybe try to get a look at each before deciding since the veneers might be better looking on one than on the other.

Rabbeting the back of the panel to fit into the frame's groove is exactly the way I'd do it.

[Brian Peters]

Those gluing in plywood panels are playing with the fire so to speak; many publications deem it proper I don't. You may have not had any problems but I do my best to avoid callbacks and rework. Why glue it in if you don't have to - why risk it? Plywood is still wood and still expands and contracts. If you disagree with that then tell me why it wouldn't? It still holds a relative moisture content like real wood, the only difference is that it is balanced and is less prone. I don't even glue in veneered mdf core ply, but I prefer veneered mdf over plywood any day for door panels. It's more stable and has no voids.

[Chip Lindley]

Once upon a time I made 1/4"ish flat panel doors for a client from 1/8" red oak ply by laminating 2 pcs. back to back! It was beautiful stuff, sliced, not rotary! Not sure you can find this any longer, but WORTH A TRY!

Or, go with the 1/2" panel, using two pcs. of 1/4"ish ply together for an A-side on front and back.

For "my" new kitchen I would not settle for less than solid wood though! This is something you may be looking at daily for many years ahead!

[Jamie Buxton]

Plywood is still wood and still expands and contracts.

Nope. Remember that lumber expands and contracts across the grain, but not with the grain. The grain direction in the layers within plywood are across each other. Where a layer might try to expand across the grain, it is trapped by the layers flanking it. They have along-the-grain running that direction, and so refuse to let the sandwiched one to expand. The result is that plywood doesn't expand and contract. Or maybe a better way to say it is that the expansion rate is the same as lumber's with-the-grain expansion rate.

[Brian Peters]

Well we are all entitled to our opinions. I've never gotten a call back to date for doors. We all have our different ways, I just don't like people thinking that just because its called plywood that it isn't wood, it is. And while your thorough description is one I agree with I still would be hesitant to say it won't ever expand and contract, because in some conditions any plywood will.

[Blake Holton]

David:

I'm using 1/4" A-1 Cherry for this kitchen (in progress) on MDF core, which I like for the consistent thickness and very good core flatness. I prefer a no-sap cherry back, so that I get a consistent color on the inside of the cabinet. I used a shaker style bit set from Infinity - they offer undersized cutters to get a rattle free fit for the slightly undersized thickness of the cherry plywood.

No glue for me. MDF cored cherry will move with changes in humidity and temperature. Just a few spaceballs for a good tight fit.

Have fun!

[Peter Quinn]

I'd go to a good cabinet grade plywood supplier, have them order what you want. AA, cherry ply or mdf core. Might not be in stock but should be available if you can wait till they get their next shipment.

[M. Dale Rockett]

I used PSA veneer on the back side. Use waterbase contact cement on bare wood before applying PSA veneer. This will add about 1/32" thickness to the plywood.

[Leo Graywacz]

David:

I'm using 1/4" A-1 Cherry for this kitchen (in progress) on MDF core, which I like for the consistent thickness and very good core flatness. I prefer a no-sap cherry back, so that I get a consistent color on the inside of the cabinet. I used a shaker style bit set from Infinity - they offer undersized cutters to get a rattle free fit for the slightly undersized thickness of the cherry plywood.

No glue for me. MDF cored cherry will move with changes in humidity and temperature. Just a few spaceballs for a good tight fit.

Have fun!


I had ordered some MDF cherry because I knew it would be a consistant thickness over the p veneer core version. But to my surprise it was much more expensive. So I asked why. The reason was that the MDF had 2 good sides, A-1. And it was usually used in making doors. So if you want 1/4" with 2 good sides MDF is the way to go. BTW, it will likely be 5mm, not .25"

[David Damiano]

Thanks for all the suggestions. 1/4" MDF core was what I was hoping for, just haven't been able to find it. I agree that the veneer over MDF appears flatter and the thickness is consistent. I also like the extra weight it has to make the door feel more solid. I'll try to find a cabinet supplier locally that will sell me only 1 or 2 sheets. I thought most places like that only sold wholesale large orders to cabinet shops. If I cant get that then the 1/2" ply would work and I know I can get it here.

[Jim Becker]

I've taken three approaches to this...leave it as-is if I really don't care what the inside looks like; veneer the inside of the panel if they are small enough not to have warping issues (increases the thickness slightly) or doubling the panel by laminating two pieces. As an alternative to the latter, my supplier's 1/2" cherry veneer ply has an acceptable back veneer...

[Quinn McCarthy]

David

WHat I usually do is make a 1/2" raised panel and flip it around so the flat panel shows. I really like the way it looks. It gives the door a solid wood feet.

Hope that helps.

Quinn

[Andy Bardowell]

The 1/2" may be the way to go as you say, the doors would have more heft. Would the inside surface be flush though using 1/2" or would it be proud depends on your router bits?

[Brian Penning]

I'm a bit lost here if you go with the rabbeted 1/2".
You rabbet just enough of the ply edges to fit in the rails and styles groove? This way you don't see the exposed part of the ply?
I don't get the procedure.
TIA

[Brian Peters]

I prefer 3/8" panels minimum. 1/4" is cheap and will rattle. Plus it's a poor way to make a door since the fit isn't always perfect. With a 3/8-1/2" panel you can rabbet it and control the 1/4" tounge thickness to be snug, not tight and certainly not loose. I cut mine 1/16" less all the way around so there is a nice clean 1/16" reveal on the back of the door where the panel meets the door stiles and rails. You won't see any exposed ply/mdf it will just look like a small quirk or design detail.

[Phil Thien]

Having recently shopped for some ply for door panels, I discovered that MDF core was the only way to go. Not only because the quality of the veneers, but because of the potato-chipping that veneer-core can do. It is less common in high-quality plywood, but it DOES happen.

[Scott Wigginton]

David

WHat I usually do is make a 1/2" raised panel and flip it around so the flat panel shows. I really like the way it looks. It gives the door a solid wood feet.

Hope that helps.

Quinn

I've seen this done on some custom cabinetry from the '40s, it was a nice visual and definetely made the doors feel more hefty.

[Steve Clardy]

Having recently shopped for some ply for door panels, I discovered that MDF core was the only way to go. Not only because the quality of the veneers, but because of the potato-chipping that veneer-core can do. It is less common in high-quality plywood, but it DOES happen.

Ditto that.
The last 3-4 flat panel cabinet jobs I have done I used mdf core 1/4 ply.
Nice and stable, no glue. Makes a nice door