my first veneer project- need advice (pic)

[Lynn Kasdorf]

I'm doing a coffee table for a client, and while I'm a very experienced woodworker, this will be my first veneer project.

The customer is really intent on Macassar Ebony. Because the table will be 4' square, obviously it will require veneer. I'll be basically copying this design (but altering dimensions):
http://onehorsetownband.com/forsale/coffeetable/boke_table_1a.jpg

The base will be either ash or maple and ebonized. The top will be a carcasse made of birch plywood, covered with Macassar Ebony veneer.

My concern is the corners. I figure I'll attach the veneer to the sides and flush trim. Then attach the top piece and flush trim that. But the edge of that veneer will be exposed and I don't think it will stand up to use.

I'm trying to talk the client into letting me inlay a 1/4" strip of solid wood of some sort on the corners. This will be more work, but would make for a more robust piece.

Or, I could let the client have her way, and then if it gets bunged up later on, take it back and lay in the corner bead (for extra $$).

I can get paper backed Macassar veneer in 4'x8' sheets (for $608!) but the stuff is only .010" thick. I talked to a supplier today who suggested wood-on-wood veneer. He said it is thicker. If I went this route, do you think the veneer edges will work ok?

Also, would I flush trim with a laminate trim router bit, just like doing formica? Or do I need a special down cut bit.

[Marc Casebolt]

Hey Lynn,

Any chance of getting a bit of that Macassar ebony to make a solid wood trim around the edge? Even a 1/4" strip mitered at the corners would solve the problem, and I agree it could be a problem.

Also consider that if you use paper backed veneer the way you describe, you will see the edge of the paper backing at every edge when you flush trim. Is the 'wood on wood' backing made of the same wood as the face? If not that could have the same result.

Good luck, I'm sure you will figure it out.

Marc

[David DeCristoforo]

Well there's a bit of a dilemma. A solid wood band or inlay at the edge would certainly protect the veneer. But it is going to impact the design in a very noticeable manner. So the big question would be which is more important to you and/or the client? The "integrity" and "intent" of the design or the possibility that the veneer could get chipped. Personally, I would stick with the "clean" look of the piece in the picture, make sure that the veneer was really glued down tight at the edges, "knock off" the sharp corner of the veneer to minimize the possibility of something "catching" the veneer and figure that if it ever does get chipped, it should not be too difficult to repair. I have seen a lot of pieces made in this manner...some are chipped.... many are not.

[Dewey Torres]

I have never done a piece like this with commercial veneer but I have with shop made (1/16"). Chris Padilla is doing a Tansu and he may be able to help. Mike Henderson is also known for veneer work as well as Tony Joyce.

On the bit issue I would certainly look to get a spiral flush trim or at least a strait trim bit with a darn good shear angle. Veneer is much more prone to chipping than Formica and the fact that it is the ever brittle Macassar Ebony even more proves my point:eek:.

Having said all that your best bet is the corners from solid ebony as you suggested (with a good grain match I doubt the customer would know). I would make a 1/4 x 1/4" rabbet on each corner and go that route. I would also put a 1/16" champher on them to keep them from splintering.

My .02:)

[Chris Padilla]

Marc! Hey, your vacuum system is working like a champ for me. See my Tansu (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=92396) project. :)

Lynn,

I fully agree with Marc (and see my Tansu project for something similar to what you're doing).

First, edge-band your substrate with hardwood. I'm not sure how you want to handle the end-grain but if you can find some wide Macassar Ebony, you could use it where you might expect to find it or just edge-band it as normal.

After the edge-banding, lay your veneer on top but ONLY if this veneer isn't paper-backed. In fact, I would try to resaw your own veneers but I don't know the equipment you have. At the minimum, you'll need a bandsaw (duh) but a drum sander will be indispensible to sand down those veneers to 1/16" (a thick but not too thick veneer). This thicker veneer is more forgiving when it comes to sanding and easing the edges.

For pressing the veneers, you can do no better than a vacuum press. I know, more $$$s to invest in but it will greatly extend your skills and offerings to clients.

I would use MDF as a substrate over plywood as it'll be more stable and, really, is the best substrate for veneer due to its uniformity and lack of grain. However, it has the potential to sag more over plywood unless supported below and I don't know the details of your leg/support structure for the table. But, if you edge-band with hardwood, that will help keep the MDF flat, too.

Anyway, there you go. I've been doing all this on my Tansu so fire away with more questions if you have them. Oh, a sprial down bit is typically what you'd want to use to trim veneers.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Is the grain going to run all one direction on the top? If not, you could orient the grain to match a solid band easily. Kind of hard to tell from your photo.

[Jamie Buxton]

Veneer the top first, using standard sliced veneer. Then use bandsawn veneer for the edges. Make it 3/32" thick or so. That's enough thickness that you can relieve the corner with a chamfer or just a sandpaper roundover. Just that little relief is enough to protect the edge of the top's veneer. And all of this gets you the nice clean look demanded by the customer.

[Jamie Buxton]

Or... this may be more work than you signed up for, but you could make the top veneer so that it has four quadrants. There would be seams running from corner to opposite corner. The grain in each quadrant runs parallel to the tabletop edge. Then you could make the grain on the side of the table top run horizontally instead of vertically as the pic shows. The advantage is that you don't have a grain-direction discontinuity at the corner.

[Marc Casebolt]

Hello Chris,
Thanks for the link. That looks like a nice project, and it is good to know that the vac press went to a good home. I sometimes wonder where all my stuff ended up.

David has a good point as regards the design integrity. It looks all about grain direction. Please tell me that the peice in the picture is not formica. It sure looks like it. If you can talk to your client and educate her about your concerns, she/he may see it and help work out a solution. If not, I'll bet it can be done, but it will be interesting to see how you do it.

I got some un-backed bubinga once (Chris did you end up with that?) You could look into that option. It was thin, but if you got it really laid on well and put a fairly thick film finish over it you might get away with that.

Good luck,

Marc

[David DeCristoforo]

FWIW I would not use that micro thin paper backed veneer for a table top like this. Much too thin for long term wear and tear and very fragile at the edges!

[Jamie Buxton]

If you're looking at quartersawn Macassar, with that strong parallel-grain pattern, you might consider reconstituted veneer as a way to control the cost of the veneer. Reconstituted looks very believable in strong parallel-grain patterns like that. To see a photo, go to www.certainlywood.com. Go to Wood Menu, and use the Veneer Locator to search for Ebony, Macassar. You'll lots of pretty veneers for $10-$12 per square foot, and near the bottom of the page you'll see reconsituted for $2.50 per square foot. Their part number is RC QT EBONY 801.

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Lots of great info here- thanks so much.

I already have vacuum pumps (2 Gast units that came my way at auctions) so I just need to buy a big enough bag. I've been wanting to get set up for veneering anyway.

At this point I have ruled out the paper backed veneer- just too darn thin. I met a supplier at the recent woodworking show who can get thicker wood on wood type. He said that it is made up of strips cut from a quarter sawn log. I agree that we don't want to see the edges of the veneer.

The client is non-negotiable on Macassar. I suppose I could skip veneering per se, and consider buying the biggest pieces I could find, and resaw into 1/8" thick or so "veneer". I have heard that the stuff is very hard to work with tho. And the thought of all that resawing ebony is not appealing.

I do have a great saw for resawing- a Rockwell 20" bandsaw with a Lenox carbide blade. And I can rent time on a neighbor's wide belt sander, I'm sure.

I have a few places to check, but I believe I'll be able to get some pieces big enough that I can at least cut edge banding. I like the idea of veneering the top first, then doing the sides, thus covering the edge of the top veneer. Then there would be enough wood there to relieve the corners a bit.

I've been advised that I'll need to veneer the underside of the top as well, to minimize stress warping. I guess I'll get some cheap species veneer for that.

So, my thinking on the construction of the top is this:

The top will be 3/4" MDF. The top will sit on the sides, which are 2 layers of MDF. I'll biscuit the top onto the sides, and hold the sides together with pocket screws and/or biscuits.
Since it will be hidden anyway, I figured I'd run X bracing under the top, to minimize sagging.

Then, I need to determine how I'm attaching the top to the base. I may use barrel fasteners (ikea style).

Other decisions to make:

-type of glue for the veneer
-finish (leaning towards Petri wipe-on poly- I did a project with a leftover can I got from a woodworking show demo and was amazed)
-species of wood and ebonizing technique for the base

Thanks-
Lynn

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I use the cold press glue that Joe sells on www.veneersupplies.com (http://www.veneersupplies.com) Great stuff, and Joe's operation is top notch. Good source for that bag you need too.

[john lawson]

I agree with most everyone's advice, but to go back to what David said, talk to the customer and explain the pitfalls of the original design. If that customer says that the "look" is the most important thing and that the table will not be exposed to nicks and scratches, then consider going with the original design.

I believe as woodworkers working on commission we should be forthright in pointing out the weakness and strengths of different designs and then following the customers informed wishes.

Technically I agree with the two suggestions that included a solid woood edging or a thicker veneer that would allow a rounding of the sharp edge, but even that is a small compromise to the sharp corners pictured.

john

[Chris Padilla]

Lynn,

It all goes to the intended design of course but it is much easier to hide the edges of the veneer if they are closer to an edge. This is why I suggest edge-banding in hardwood FIRST...then veneering over that. If you edge-band after veneering, the line is whatever thickness into the top and is potentially more visible.

The reason I went this way was due to a suggestion in a veneering book I bought:
Woodworker's Guide to Veneering & Inlay by Jonathan Benson. It is on the veneersupplies site. The author shows lots of pics and projects with macassar ebony so it might be worth your effort to pick it up and read it.

I got all my glue from veneersupplies as well. Great people to work with and excellent products, good prices, very reasonable shipping. Joe is great to email with because he will answer you.

Oh, and another thing with veneering. Whatever you do to the top, you must do to the bottom to maintain balance. I know it may KILL YOU to put macassar ebony on the bottom of the table top but it will keep the top balanced...very important or warpage and veneer loosening may result over time. Think about how plywood is put together: always balanced within the plys...you will essentially be doing the same thing.

[Chris Padilla]

Hello Chris,
Thanks for the link. That looks like a nice project, and it is good to know that the vac press went to a good home. I sometimes wonder where all my stuff ended up.

I got some un-backed bubinga once (Chris did you end up with that?) You could look into that option. It was thin, but if you got it really laid on well and put a fairly thick film finish over it you might get away with that.

Good luck,

Marc

Thanks, Marc. :) Yes, you tossed in the bubinga...still have it...no project for it yet. :D

[Andrew Joiner]

Are you getting paid by the hour or did you bid this?

It may be more profitable to have a sheet of ebony plywood laid up and shipped to you.

I've made lot's of office furniture from hardwood plywood with tops just like that. I miter all the corners. Set up right you can miter it perfect.

Of course practice with birch or scrap hardwood plywood first.

[Brad Shipton]

Lynn, I would suggest Uni bond 800 for the adhesive. It is a two part Urea Formaldehye. It does take quite a bit more time in the bag (3 - 5hr) but it will give you a superior bond and will give you flex time between rolling out all the glue and getting it into the bag. You can reduce the time in the bag using a heat blanket if you need.

One thing I would suggest to anyone new to WOW veneering is to take a piece of 1/42" veneer and try to sand through with a ROS. Most are usually quite surprised to see how long it takes. It is quite a bit more durable than most initally think. Add a durable finish and the client will have a durable piece for a long time.

One method to achieve a thicker edge banding that adds a decorative feature is to glue up multiple layers of veneers of different ones. It is an easy way to make it look like you went to a great deal of effort making an inlay. In this case, I would apply a thicker edge banding to the top first. I would tend to go to 1/4" or more so I get a good glue bond around the perimeter. The key failure point here will be them feet catching the edge.

Brad

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Lynn,

It all goes to the intended design of course but it is much easier to hide the edges of the veneer if they are closer to an edge. This is why I suggest edge-banding in hardwood FIRST...then veneering over that. If you edge-band after veneering, the line is whatever thickness into the top and is potentially more visible.

The reason I went this way was due to a suggestion in a veneering book I bought:
Woodworker's Guide to Veneering & Inlay by Jonathan Benson. It is on the veneersupplies site. The author shows lots of pics and projects with macassar ebony so it might be worth your effort to pick it up and read it.



I took your advice and ordered the book. I don't get the concept of edgebanding in hardwood and veneering over that...are you saying I would laminate to the MDF sides, a 3" tall strip (the height of the top) of oak or other hardwood and then glue the ebony veneer to that? If that is the case, I don't see why that woudl be better than just glueing the ebony to the MDF.

I guess the book will straighten me out! Thanks for the tip on the book (and the others).
Lynn

[Chris Padilla]

Excellent...the book is good...and will clear things up for you I think. I've pretty much followed all the advice in the book and have also read everything I could find on the joewoodworker.com site (and the sister veneersupplies.com site).

Look at my Tansu thread, Lynn, and you'll see what I mean by edge-banding in hardwood first and then veneering over that. :)

Sounds like a GREAT project. I hope you will take pics and allow us to follow along with you! :D

[Lynn Kasdorf]

Are you getting paid by the hour or did you bid this?

It may be more profitable to have a sheet of ebony plywood laid up and shipped to you.

I've made lot's of office furniture from hardwood plywood with tops just like that. I miter all the corners. Set up right you can miter it perfect.

Of course practice with birch or scrap hardwood plywood first.
It is a fixed price job. Any idea who could produce macassar ebony plywood for me?

When you say miter all the corners, are you suggesting a 3-way miter of the top and the sides?

[Andrew Joiner]

It is a fixed price job. Any idea who could produce macassar ebony plywood for me?

When you say miter all the corners, are you suggesting a 3-way miter of the top and the sides?

I would talk to millwork shops who lay-up there own panels. Most big cities have one. Talk to people who sell veneer wholesale and ask for a panel maker recommendation. I paid $120 a sheet for Rosewood plywood in 1978 when birch was $25.
http://i.xanga.com/jaoakes/t/Minn.%20Apartment%20003.jpg (http://i.xanga.com/jaoakes/Minn.%20Apartment%20003.jpg)
Here's a picture of some base cabinets I made in 1978 from some of that rosewood plywood.



Even if you pay $400 or $500 a sheet you might be ahead time and quality wise. Your cost on the veneer and materials plus lot's of time and some waste factor to learn is the unkown dollar amount yet. If you really want to learn veneering you could start with a smaller piece and cheaper materials just to build your skills.

Yes, 3-way miter and fold it over to keep grain continuous. Clamp with tape or web clamps. Try it with scraps,it's easy.

These are just my thoughts. Good Luck.

[Ron Bott]

Is it me or does this seem a bit risky to take on a project like is being described, when it appears you have very little experience producing work with the proposed methods? While I wish you the best, I think this could backfire and has the potential to damage your reputation.

[Craig D Peltier]

Is it me or does this seem a bit risky to take on a project like is being described, when it appears you have very little experience producing work with the proposed methods? While I wish you the best, I think this could backfire and has the potential to damage your reputation.

Wel I disagree. With sound advice from here , craftsman saying he has had much experience with woodworking and how else do you learn right?

I have done many things I dont know how to do, have you? Now I know.

[Ron Bott]

I have done many things I dont know how to do, have you? Now I know.

Yes of course I have. I'm not suggesting not trying new things, my point was maybe it's not a good idea to sell your first veneering project to a client. As anyone who has done veneering can probably attest, there is a definite learning curve involved.

[Chris Padilla]

Sure, but lottsa things have learning curves involved. So you ask on forums, get books, and then have a go at 'er! I messed up MANY things on my Tansu but not so bad that I couldn't recover...it cost me time...it cost me more money...but Ima learnin'! :D

Flatwork veneering isn't too bad but I can see curvy stuff being a real challenge!

[Marc Casebolt]

I sold my first veneer project. Just go slow and double check everything. Also when using a large vac bag I found that it helped to do a dry run (without glue) putting the parts together and getting it all into the bag, sealed and sucked, before committing yourself. It's harder than it looks sometimes, and you will find out where you may need an extra hand.

Marc

[Chris Padilla]

LOL, Marc speaks the truth about doing dry runs in your vacuum bag!!

Think about it this way, most people do dry runs when they're ready to glue and clamp up, right? A vacuum bag is no different...it is just a fancy clamp...so do dry runs. Suck down the bag with your stuff in there...do you find everything acceptable? Bag isn't being pinched or strained? No holes? No sharp points that might poke through the bag? Veneer is supported well...even support throughout the bag?

I once busted a caul because I forgot to put something under it. The bag sucked down and "pop!", busted my caul right then and there where I didn't have adequate support. Another time my veneer hung over the substrate too much and the bag sucked down and after several minutes starting busting the overhung veneer and that pretty much ruined that piece.