Floating Tenons? Who is Doing Them?

[Jack Young]

All-

I'm a bit of a newbie here and have tons of questions. I've seen enough pictures and read enough comments to see this is frequented by folks far beyond where I am in woodworking, and it's a joy to engage with the site and with you. Thanks again, John M. As I'm still struggling with some basic decisions, let me pick your brain(s) on this one.

FWW reported a test recently which showed that floating tenons were somewhere in the same ballpark as the traditional tenon in terms of strength, and far better than dowels or bisquits. Another recent article, maybe in FWW as well, showed how to build a wooden jig(s) to do mortises for floating tenons, and how to mill the tenons themselves.

Who among you uses floating tenons and what is your experience with them? I am inclined to see the floating tenon as the way to go, not because it's cheaper, but because it avoids shoulder problems and would seem to be faster. Please tell me if I'm wrong-headed on this one.

Maybe this has been covered, as I've only made it back a few pages in the index of threads and I didn't see it.

Jack Young

[Herb Blair]

Jack,
I use floating tenons on some projects. It depends on what it is, sometimes I use the tradional mortise and tenon arrangement. When I use floating tenons, I use the BeadLock system, as it is fast, easy to use and gives good results.
I look at joinery this way. Most mortise and tenon joints will never be seen unless they are thru mortise and tenon types. Therefore only you will know (are care) what type of joint it is. I would think that the old shaker craftsmen would have used simular systems if they had the routers, equipment, and glue that we have today.
But again, there are times when a traditional mortise and tenon is appropriate. For instance, I always use them when making the skirt for a table, Why? Cause I've always done it that way...
BTW, I am in no way connected to BeadLock.

[Richard Gillespie]

I also use floating tenons. Most frequently, I use them when attaching headboards and foot boards to corner posts on beds. There I have a concern with expansion and contraction factors. Usually these items are so wide that there is a possibility of wood or joint failure in my opinion. Since, by design, there is more room for expansion and contraction and by not gluing one side of one of the two tenons per side, pinning only, I've allowed for movement.

Other then that circumstance, I use traditional mortise and tenon joints.

[Mark Singer]

I use them often. It is a good strong joint. I use a plunge router with a 1/4" up spiral bit. A compressor to blow out the Mortise after each plunge is useful. It takes about 3 passes to clean out each mortise. The template is made from MDF or plywood using the drillpress. The holes are connected with a file. Leave the ends half round that matches the bit. Rip the tenon stock from hardwood. Use calipers to match each dimension. Round over the edges on the router table to match the mortise diameter.Rip shallow grooves on both faces to create glue pockets. Cut the mortise stock to 2" to 3" lengths. It should be 1/8" shorter thah the length of the 2 combined mortises. Taper the edges slightly on the combo sander to ease the insertion.
This joint is a bit easier than a regular mortise and tenon joint sinse the shoulders are not there to deal with. In most cases I still perfer the traditional M&T joint and find its even faster. Using a mortising machine and cutting the tenons on the bandsaw. Use a handsaw to make the shoulder cut aftter scribing with a marking gauge...clean up with a shoulder plane.
It is helpful to learn both methods....it is the primary joint of furniture making

[Jerry Heiser]

Jack, if you've ever seen David Mark's woodworking show on TV, you'll notice that he uses floating tenons almost exclusively. I don't know that I agree that they're easier or faster to make or that they have better results. I've made a'many M&T joints w/o "shoulder" issues. I use a Shop Fox dedicated mortiser and a Woodtek tenoning jig on my tablesaw and get great results. Plus I don't have to make separate tenon stock and cut it to length. It's like everything else in woodworking (or in anything for that matter) there's a lot of different ways to get to the same means. Some may be better than others but most are just a variation of the same idea. What ever works best for you is the "correct" and "best" way. Try different techniques and see what works best for you, not what someone tells you is best. Years ago, I apprenticed in Bath, Maine at the Apprenticeshop building traditional wooden workboats. I was always amazed at the skill of the Master Builder, Dave Foster, and how he could address the same woodworking task with different approaches, and still get the same GREAT results. A true craftsman. That was probably the single most important lesson I learned at the Shop. Flexibility!!

Enjoy your woodworking.

Jerry

[Jamie Buxton]

I use both floating and non-floating tenons, depending on the joint. Where the two members are straight and meet at 90 degrees in both planes, I use a non-floating tenon. Machining it is easy on the tablesaw. For angled joints, or joints of curved members, I generally using floating tenons. For these, it is easier to first focus on making the joined members exactly right, and then adding a tenon.

[Steven Wilson]

I'm in the process of getting up to speed with a european combination machine that has a horizontal mortiser. I have the choice of using the shaper to make tenons and then either square up the mortise or round off the tenon, or just use the horizontal mortiser and use floating tenon stock. For the floating tenon stock I just run it through the shaper with a beading bit that matches the mortise cutter and then cut off the length I need. So far I find that if I can use the same size (width) of mortise then the floating tenon makes a great deal of sense and is faster to set up and execute. If I need to make a bunch of different size mortises then making individual tenons seems faster.

[Jack Young]

Thanks,

What you guys are saying is that the whole business is an evolving one. I have looked at the Leigh jig, and a number of others, and sense that the thing can be as expensive as you let it be. Your comments have been of great help. Needless to say, the very question accurately suggests that I have not done a lot of that sort of thing, or I'd know what you know.

Again, thanks.

Jack Young

[Don Henthorn Smithville, TX]

When I had my shop floating tenons were almost always my choice of joint if appropriate. Easy to make and I kept a supply of tenon stock on hand in three sizes.

[Cecil Arnold]

I agree with Jamie, floating is best for me when dealing with curved skirts on tables. I've cut the mortice using nothing more than a router with fence and find even that works well.

[Eric Arrington]

I think it depends on how you are set up. David Marks has the Multi Router to make his loose tenons. If you have a multi router or some other slot mortiser then it is definitely faster to do floating tenons. I you are doing it with a plunge router and a jig then I would say that just cutting a regular tenon would probably be faster. I would however fully recommend the multi router to anyone.

[Jerry Olexa]

I used a floating tenon on an outdoor project when the original tenon was broken/damaged by vandalism. Worked well...

[Jim Becker]

Lots of us use floating tenons. They are strong and easy to create, especially since you can cut your components to final length without figuring all the extra length for creating a traditional tenon. In some cases, such as oblique angles, floaters will be far easier to create and work with. Of course, they really don't "float"...they are just separate from the components; double-ended if you will...and get glued in securely on both sides.

Of course, dowels and Dominos are also floating tenons... ;) ...just smaller in stature. :)

[Joe Cunningham]

Floating tenons means I'd have to cut two mortises (I use hand tools).

No thanks. One is enough and my hand saw skills are better than my mortise chisel skills.

[glenn bradley]

I generally use M&T. I picked up a Mortise Pal on special and have used some floating tenons on a project now in motion. Very easy to use and (except for the ones that show) I save a little chisel work squaring things up.

[Bob Wingard]

I use loose tenon whenever I can, and I have adopted a variation of this guys method .. .. ..


http://www.eaglelakewoodworking.com/


His method is so simple and foolproof, AND, it requires a minimum of jigs/accessories. With all of the router "lifts" available today, I can't see a better method available, even if you don't want to fabricate his electric lift.

[Joe Scharle]

I've got a Woodrat so either way is just as fast for me. But like everyone else, I use whichever seems right for the particular application.

[Stan Smith]

Jack,
I use floating tenons on some projects. It depends on what it is, sometimes I use the tradional mortise and tenon arrangement. When I use floating tenons, I use the BeadLock system, as it is fast, easy to use and gives good results.
I look at joinery this way. Most mortise and tenon joints will never be seen unless they are thru mortise and tenon types. Therefore only you will know (are care) what type of joint it is. I would think that the old shaker craftsmen would have used simular systems if they had the routers, equipment, and glue that we have today.
But again, there are times when a traditional mortise and tenon is appropriate. For instance, I always use them when making the skirt for a table, Why? Cause I've always done it that way...
BTW, I am in no way connected to BeadLock.

Ditto to Beadlock. In my small shop, it's a real space saver too for the amount of M&T joints that I do.

[Peter Pedisich]

The Beadlock jig has worked well for me on several projects.

With a long drill bit it allows a nice deep mortise, but you must be carefull on the deep mortises to keep the drill bit square to the stock!!! I learned that the hard way.

...gonna be trying router cut mortises soon.

[guy knight]

love my domino and looking at a multirouter or horizontal mortiser

[Jesse Cloud]

Its a good idea to learn both ways. But I find myself using loose tenons more and more. When you make up the tenon stock, make a lot and keep some around for future projects - it really speeds things up.

I'm making chairs right now, with lots of compound angles - I would go nuts trying to do that with an integral tenon.

[John Hain]

I use about 70% floating. It's easier. Measure, cut, route/mortise, fit tenon. It's quite easy. I tend to use 1/4 or 3/8 tenons for most every project and have a boat load of wood ready for tenons when needed. I'll likely be a total convert once I get a Festool............

[brett gallmeyer]

I almost allways use floating tennons on all of my prodjects. They are easier to acomplish and I've never had problems with strength. I made that jig that was featured in fine woodworking but I had to adjust the dimensions to work with my router. Here is a link the the thread I started about it.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=88601

[Neal Clayton]

Thanks,

What you guys are saying is that the whole business is an evolving one. I have looked at the Leigh jig, and a number of others, and sense that the thing can be as expensive as you let it be. Your comments have been of great help. Needless to say, the very question accurately suggests that I have not done a lot of that sort of thing, or I'd know what you know.

Again, thanks.

Jack Young

i use the Leigh jig in lieu of floating tenons. it's as easy as it appears in their videos, just a matter of whether it's worth the price to you or not.

for my purposes i need to recreate historical doors/windows which involves very large or multiple mortises (like the bottom stile of a 2" exterior door) and very small ones (like muntins in a window). in addition i don't have room for a standalone mortiser, at least not a real one (benchtop ones i've not had any luck with, too inaccurate imo).

so for my purposes it's worth it. for others, i can see why they would want a standalone mortiser.

[Mike Heidrick]

I just bought the Laguna Platnium Slot mortiser at IWF. Price was $945 (show price) plus the five piece Laguna bits for $100. So far I have been just playing with making mortises. Hope to make a bed with loose tenons soon.

[Ray Schafer]

That looks much simpler than some of the jigs that I have seen. I have wanted to make one, but most look too difficult. I would like to make this one.

[richard poitras]

http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/Q4r6L4b2PE8/default.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4r6L4b2PE8&feature=related)

here's one that looks kinda good ...

[David Dundas]

If you don't want to take the trouble to make your own floating tenon stock, you can always get the set of metric spiral upcut bits available from Woodcraft to rout the mortises, and use dominoes for the the tenons.

If you make a precision micro-adjustable mortising jig like this one, for which free plans can be downloaded from my blog - http://rockerswoodwork.blogspot.com/ , you can make floating tenon joints quickly and accurately.

David Dundas

[Gary Curtis]

With this odd-ball machine in my shop, cutting a Mortise is real easy. It's called a WoodRat and uses a Router to mill joints. It is also a cinch when it comes to milling full Tenons. But I don't do that much.

Instead, I buy bags full of floating tenons made by Festool for their Domino machine. Very hard wood, fluted and embossed to strengthen the bond with the mortise and to prevent Hydraulic Lock caused excess glue. They are convenient and simple to use.

Haven't compared the joint strength between Full Tenons and Floating Tenons. I believe that the application would dictate which is preferable.

Gary Curtis

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I made a slot mortiser and all I do is floaters now.

[Mike Heidrick]

David, you have a very nice website. Thankyou for the PDF's! Great looking Rockers and tables btw!

[Roger Barga]

Someone may have already noted this, but Lee Valley carries a selection of loose tenon stock ranging from 1/4" to 1/2" in thickness and it is roughly 12" in length. The material is hardwood and has shallow grooves cut along the face for glue to escape. While it may cost more that making it yourself, I find it very convenient to have a few of these on hand for a quick project.

roger

[Stan Smith]

I've gotten lazy and use Beadlock Master for m & t on my small projects.

[David Dundas]

Mike,

Thanks for the kind words. It is gratifying to know that over 4700 people have downloaded the free plans of jigs from my blog.

David Dundas