Contributor still getting ads [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

Randal Stevenson

03-26-2009, 1:21 PM

Dan,

I don't agree. The cookie should be retrieved as soon as the page is requested by my browser. It does not need to know who I am just that I am a contributor and about to log in so hold the ads.

Steve: I already have that set right after I became a contributor.

Is there a direct link to the Login page instead of to the forum index with the login at the top? Maybe that page could not have the ads rolling then.

If you click the remember me, then you are automatcally logged in when you come here. If you don't, there may be a reason, such as others have access to the computer.
If others have access, then putting it in a universal cookie, would do no good, as it wouldn't serve its point (people would disassemble and use the info for their own cookies to stop the ads).

Dave Johnson29

03-26-2009, 1:27 PM

Go to the edit options in the user control panel and switch off the ads.

Mike,

Steve mentioned that and I covered it in my previous reply. Ads have been off since I became a contributor.

Dave Johnson29

03-26-2009, 1:33 PM

If you click the remember me, then you are automatcally logged in when you come here.

Randall,

I am using Firefox 3.xx and it does not auto login all it does is insert "Dave..." when I click the login name field and enter "d" it then fills in Dave... but the ad is running.

I have clicked the "remember me" checkbox. Does nothing.

I have Cookies on.

I have a cookie exception for www.sawmillcreek.org (http://www.sawmillcreek.org)

I have checked the cookie (actually 5 different ones are set each session) and it is being saved when I close FF.

I cant find anything else to do to stop the ads until after I sign in.

The ads do go away after I sign in as expected.

As to sharing my computer, there is only me and the Big Black Dog and I am pretty sure he can't type. :D

Mike DeRegnaucourt

03-26-2009, 5:12 PM

I've always seen the ads whenever I did not sign in. I was not aware you could turn off the ads without signing in. Hmmmm :confused:

Bill Cunningham

03-26-2009, 9:38 PM

"Remember me" remembers me, as soon as I hit the forum, on any page!

Bill Parker

03-26-2009, 11:39 PM

Hmmm, very odd. I also use FF, and am always logged in when browsing SMC. Haven't had to login for months now. The only suggestion I have is making sure you check the "remember me", before actually logging in. As the "remember me" does nothing after logging in.

Mark Winlund

03-28-2009, 2:04 PM

Same here. Still get the ads, and I am a contributor. The system logs me in automatically, but still, the ads. My options say "no".

Mark

Mike Null

03-28-2009, 4:08 PM

Mark

When you changed the ad options to no did you go to the bottom of the page and save it?

Dave Johnson29

03-28-2009, 5:25 PM

When you changed the ad options to no did you go to the bottom of the page and save it?

I think he must have Mike as he mentions that it shows "no." Same for me.

Sometimes it logs me in automatically and other times I have to kick start it with the "d" for dave and then it shows my full login name. Other times it puts the full name straight in there but I still have to click the Login button or hit Enter.

The "Remember me" appears to do nothing.

This is the only vBulletin forum I use that does this. The others all log me in automatically. Probably a configuration thing with vBulletin.

Doug Griffith

03-28-2009, 6:53 PM

I have a cookie exception for www.sawmillcreek.org (http://www.sawmillcreek.org)
:D

Hi Dave,
You may want to include an exception for ".sawmillcreek.org" as well. I have 8 cookies set and 3 of them (bbsessionhash, bbthread_lastview, bbthreadedmode) are without the "www". Cookies are very particular about the path. I generally set all cookies without "www" as it is more reliable with all urls.

Cheers,
Doug

Keith Outten

03-28-2009, 9:13 PM

If Members are going to turn off our advertising free access won't last much longer. These are very tough times economically and it is difficult to attract advertisers wiling to sponsor banner ads that pay for free access to our Forums.

If the majority here have changed their minds about advertising please let me know so I can stop beating my head against the wall marketing for sponsors.

Our Contributors have the ability to turn off advertising banners, we provide this for them because they have made donations to pay for their access here.

?????????????
.

Dan Hintz

03-29-2009, 8:10 AM

Keith,

I don't want to turn this into an "advertising why's" thread, but here's one man's take on it (and just to get the naysayers out of the way, one who also contributed more than the minimum to SMC).

I want to look at ads for one reason and one reason only... to see if someone sells what I'm looking for. When I'm not looking for something, I don't want to look at ads... I don't go to the local mall unless I intend to make a purchase. I'm not an impulse buyer, so cramming flashing ads in my face is an annoyance rather than an inducement to buy. I will turn the ads back on for a day or two if I'm shopping (such as when I decided to purchase another laser), but otherwise I want my reading space clean.

Plenty of forums out there that use membership fees and selectable ads, and they're still kicking, despite the people like me who turn ads off. I certainly don't envy your position on this, and I've watched you struggle with it over the years. The advertisers should be basing their decision on an increase in sales when advertising here, not a guarantee that all members are forced to see the actual ad. One forum (I intended to advertise on until I saw this plea) actually made a call to members to click on all of the ads as often as possible to "support" the sponsors... that didn't support them as it resulted in zero extra sales, but it made the forum owner look like he was doing his job of posting ads in the right place. I should click on an ad when I have an interest in something, not just because it's there.

I don't have any viable solutions to offer as I've heard/seen both sides of the story, but you shouldn't be beating your head against the wall for an reason. You're the boss here... make a command decision and make people live with it (and no one says it has to be completely consistent, such as making moderators fee-free). I bet good money you wouldn't lose anyone who has an interest in this place.

Doug Griffith

03-29-2009, 10:57 AM

Hi Keith,
regarding ads... I don't even notice them. Unless they are in my face, I tend to blur them out. Here and everywhere. Some Ideas:

How about setting up an external store collective similar to Amazon for each forum (as a sticky) with products targeting that forum. A percentage of sales would go back to SMC.

You could have strict guidelines for each store such as the products being produced by SMC members for their trade (ie. pen blanks, fixtures, honeycomb tables). The content could be approved by you and the moderators. You could even limit the quantity of items per store to lets say 10 items.

Creating an ecommerce store is difficult enough but getting visitors there is even more of a challenge. SMC already has the visitors.

Another idea:
You could set up a sticky with contributor website addresses (and site descriptions) exclusively for contributors who contribute a certain amount.

Another idea:
Allow contributors to include small non-obtrusive banners in their signatures and then charge per click. Bill up front and remove the banner when funds drop to zero. URLs are not currently allowed but this would be a way for contributors to get exposure.

Cheers,
Doug

Dave Johnson29

03-29-2009, 11:54 AM

If Members are going to turn off our advertising free access won't last much longer.

Hi Keith,

This has drifted a long way from where I stared with my whining. I have no problem paying to be a contributor and I think the fee requested is VERY reasonable for the this, undoubtedly the nicest and most useful forum on the Internet.

I have been involved with computers and online stuff looooong before there was an internet. MCI-Mail, Genie, Wildcat and Fido et al. Huh?? :) I have never experienced such a consistantly nice, respectful bunch of people in all that time as we have here on this forum.

If it is not possible for vBulletin to set a cookie to alert in advance that I am a contributor and am about to log in and thus show no ad, then a clean login page is the next best thing.

However your stand alone login page also has ads flashing on it too.

I can get to the login page by clicking "Reply" in a thread when not yet logged in as a contributor. Now, if my 'creek bookmark was a direct link to that login page -and- that page had no flashing ad for anyone, I would be a happy laserer.

Possible?

Scott Shepherd

03-29-2009, 1:58 PM

Clearly some of you need more work to do :D

Doug Griffith

03-29-2009, 2:19 PM

Clearly some of you need more work to do :D

Is there anything else?:rolleyes:

(but work!!!)

Dave Johnson29

03-29-2009, 7:24 PM

Clearly some of you need more work to do :D

I advocate another day be added to the standard week. I have not yet a name to suggest for that new day, but obviously I am not working enough with a paltry 7 days. :D

Today for instance.
Breakfast at 6:30am.
Walk the dog for 20 minutes.
Feed the dog.
Create artwork and laser 23 unique sample items.
Check the 'creek.
Build and fit a door for the dog's kennel as it has been damn cold recently.
Transfer garbage from the 9 local bins to the trash trailer for a trip to the tip this coming Wednesday.
4 minutes getting the dogs lunch.
12 minutes heating and eating my lunch.
Check the 'creek.
Use CAD to design a laser pointer holder for setting up the laser more accurately.
Warm up the CNC machine, boot, Home and calibrate the system.
Cut aluminum blanks for pointer holder.
Machine pointer holder, fit and test.
Grease front end of truck.
Check the 'creek.
that's my lazy day so far. :eek:
Still to come...
Take dog for afternoon 1hr walk to tire him out.
Feed dog.
Shut down machinery and compressor in the workshop and turn off all lights.
Add a bag of salt to the water softener.
Get a beer.
Prepare the BBQ for spare ribs.
Prepare stuff to go with ribs.
Get another beer.
BBQ ribs and get a glass of red wine.
Cook stuff to go with ribs.
Eat.
Cue up a DVD (no TV out here)
8:30pm relax as it is all gonna happen again tomorrow.

Hmmm, you are correct Scott, obviously not enough to do. ;):D:D

Hey isn't this supposed to be a day of rest??

EDIT...
Actually got a little pathetic there, :D normally I would be excused the cooking prep and cooking, but BBQ and ribs is mans work! Hoo-ahh.

Scott Shepherd

03-29-2009, 7:27 PM

You left out "whine about banner ads and cookies" :D

You are preaching to the choir, it's 7:30 on Sunday night and I'm heading out the door after 12 hours to go install 5 signs on the other side of town. I think I've had 1 day off all year. I'm with you Dave, I'm with you!

Dave Johnson29

03-29-2009, 7:30 PM

You left out "whine about banner ads and cookies" :D

:DNope, did that earlier this week.

Too busy to repeat stuff. :eek:

Keith Outten

03-29-2009, 8:09 PM

The ability to turn on and off advertising here is a privilege our Contributors enjoy with our permission. It is a perk that we provide and are happy to do so.

In the last couple days I have found multiple posts where Members have been discussing software designed to turn off our banner ads. This is really tacky, to promote such a thing in our public forums when advertising pays for Members access. I know software exists to remove advertising, the stuff has been around for a very long time. To openly promote software here in our forums to prevent us from paying for your access is terribly disrespectful.

We have worked very hard to keep SawMill Creek open to everyone, for free. Even though it is very expensive to run a public forum this size we still have free access for registered Members and an unbelievable number of Visitors. The agreement we made with each other over a year ago was that my company would continue to support free access here as long as we could obtain advertising to pay for the free side of SawMill Creek. It is getting extremely difficult to maintain enough advertising these days to cover the bills in this poor economy. Believe me I won't ask our Contributors to take up the slack even though they have already offered....its not going to happen!

Now for some good news. The Contributors side of SawMill Creek is financially healthy. In fact I am trying to put together a monster FreeStuff Drawing, working with manufacturers and vendors to put together something we feel will be......well we can talk about this later when I have more concrete information to share but the project is moving forward.

Dave, I have wanted to provide a custom main page Portal for our Contributors for several years. The problem has been finding the time and resources to get it built. This year Aaron and I put our eggs in one basket trying to get the ShopTours module completed by late summer or early fall. The project is basically on hold right now waiting for Aaron to finish his last semester at William and Mary in May. Aaron does have a considerable amount of the programming completed, enough that I can tell you it will be worth the wait. We spent three months putting together a features list for the ShopTours Module, it will be more than you can imagine and will require its own server and bandwidth :)

The Portal page and another large custom programming project that involves manufacturers are on our list of things to do. Unfortunately we are going to have to replace our primary server soon, there are hardware issues that have recently developed that have already caused us to go shopping for our next server. Aaron and I have been getting quotes for the last couple of weeks and the prices are a heart stopper.

Doug, thanks for the suggestions. I will give them some thought.
.

Doug Griffith

03-29-2009, 9:28 PM

Hi Keith,
check into a dedicated server at Hurricane Electric. They are on the backbone, mirrored, backed up, you have full root control, and prices are reasonable. I've had one with them for over 10 years and not a single problem. Just know that there are no control panels or other hokey restricting interfaces. Just root access for those who know what they are doing.

http://www.he.net/dedicated.html

Dave Johnson29

03-30-2009, 1:40 PM

Dave, I have wanted to provide a custom main page Portal for our Contributors for several years.

Hi Keith,

I don't want to belabor the point, but the simple log-in page already exists. If you are not logged in and click "Reply" you get the page in the attached pic.

My only bitch with that is the flashing ad at the top.

That page without an ad, or at least a static ad would appease me totally. It is not the ad per se, it is the flashing stuff while I am trying to log in.

It may be a combination of old age, grumpiness, Dyslexia and a motorcyclist's hyper active peripheral vision, but the flashing movement bugs me.

Keith Outten

03-30-2009, 9:15 PM

Dave,

The portal page I mentioned is a bit more complex and would provide more than just a login screen.

Dan Hintz

03-31-2009, 6:13 AM

Keith,

Will this page allow for thread subscriptions and the like? If so, that's wonderful. A number of other forums I'm on have a person-specific home page that show threads you've subscribed to or participated in at the top, making it easier to find the interesting stuff. I thought vBulletin came with such a login screen standard, but I've never tried setting it up, so...

Keith Outten

03-31-2009, 7:15 AM

Dan,

I'm not aware of any personal preferences vBulletin is able to provide on a custom entry page. There are people who sell add-ons for vBulletin, possibly what you saw was one of the hacks.

The portal page we would like to create would be more informative, it would still have links to each forum but we would like to have special menus to keep important information available and to promote the best from our Community. Aaron Koehl could probably implement some slick scripts that would make things a bit easier and less cumbersome. The problem with making changes directly to the vBulletin program is that when you get software upgrades you must re-install your special scripts and it can be time consuming. A portal page would allow Aaron to build a custom interface that wouldn't have to be rebuilt every time vBulletin upgrades their software.

Aaron's goal after he gets his Doctorate is to be a college professor. Possibly we could employ him full time during his summer break to create custom programs for SawMill Creek but that depends on the majority here because he has to be paid. I have been waiting for over three years to get the new ShopTours module for SawMill Creek, the reason is because we haven't had the funds to pay Aaron to do the programming and I won't allow him to work for free. Given the very low percentage of people who are willing to become Contributors I can't even consider paying Aaron out of pocket to do the work as I may never recover my investment.

It could take several more years to get these projects completed if we have to wait for our advertising to mature. The current economic situation we are in has set us back, almost to the beginning. We are trying to rebuild on a rotational banner system that is less expensive than the one we started with last year. Knowing this you can see how frustrating it is trying to move forward and bring custom services to this Community without funds. If the people that I am trying to help are going to work against me I will never be able to provide any more than what vBulletin ships with out of the box.

Note that my comments are not directed toward our Contributors, they are the ones who have been on my side since the beginning and the sole reason we are still online.
.

Angus Hines

03-31-2009, 8:53 AM

In the last couple days I have found multiple posts where Members have been discussing software designed to turn off our banner ads. This is really tacky, to promote such a thing in our public forums when advertising pays for Members access. I know software exists to remove advertising, the stuff has been around for a very long time. To openly promote software here in our forums to prevent us from paying for your access is terribly disrespectful.

Where I come from they call it out right stealing.

Now for some good news. The Contributors side of SawMill Creek is financially healthy. In fact I am trying to put together a monster FreeStuff Drawing, working with manufacturers and vendors to put together something we feel will be......well we can talk about this later when I have more concrete information to share but the project is moving forward.

You will definatly want to be a contributor when this happens :D

Dan Hintz

03-31-2009, 9:56 AM

Where I come from they call it out right stealing.
Do you hang around your TV each and every time the commercials start to play? No? You're stealing!

I threw a bit of money at the Creek, and I'm looking for ways to help Keith out (haven't come up with one yet as my programming skills are mostly in the embedded domain, not database)... but to say someone is stealing because they decided to disable ads directly through their browser is an odd point of view. And it would still be an odd point of view (from my viewpoint, anyway) had I not paid anything to the Creek. Commercial breaks are a time for me to go to the restroom, get a drink, etc.

Advertisers pay the broadcasters big money to show commercials in the hopes someone will see it and buy a product... but the broadcasters don't (and can't) guarantee anyone will be sitting in front of the TV when their ad is played, not do they guarantee an increase in sales. I threw money at the Creek not to have the option of turning ads off (never knew that option even existed), I threw money there because I was happy with what I was getting in return (none of which was due to the ads). this may not be the perfect analogy as the web is a different medium than television and therefore has different rules of operation, but I think you get the gist.

I would agree that non-contributors disabling ads is unfortunate, but if they never clicked on an ad anyway, has there really been any change in the status quo? I empathize with Keith's frustration, but until people are forced to do something by making the penalty of non-conformance too great, free will is going to reign and ads will get disabled.

Angus Hines

03-31-2009, 1:40 PM

Not the same since I don't own a device or software specifically intended to remove the ads from my TV through subterfuge . If I did then yes that to would be stealing. IMHO.

Do you hang around your TV each and every time the commercials start to play? No? You're stealing!

Dan Hintz

03-31-2009, 2:13 PM

Not the same since I don't own a device or software specifically intended to remove the ads from my TV through subterfuge . If I did then yes that to would be stealing. IMHO.
Maybe you should choose words other than "stealing" and "subterfuge", because the dictionary doesn't give descriptions anywhere close to your definition of them. Stealing means to take without permission or appropriate without permission. How is removing an ad stealing? The broadcaster makes their money whether I watch the commercial or not, so how am I stealing from them? The advertiser pays the money for a 30 second spot within a defined time period, and they do so whether they make an extra sale or not, so I'm not stealing from them, either.

Several devices exist to remove commercials from broadcasts (they turn the screen black, turn off the sound, and the better ones pause the VCR from recording). But how is that subterfuge? I haven't tricked the broadcaster into not sending me the signal, I just choose not to view it. I haven't tricked the advertiser into sending me something for free, I just choose not to purchase their products.

Keith is dealing with a real problem... how to financially support this board without resorting to what he considers draconian methods of force. I respect both his difficult position and his desire to keep this board as free to the end-user as possible. I fear the frustration and aggravation may well send him to the looney bin before all is said and done. If he decides to charge $50/yr to join, I'd gladly pull out the credit card. If he decides to charge $5k/yr to join, I'd have to make a more difficult risk versus reward decision.

But let's not kid ourselves... no one here, contributor or not, is doing anything illegal. They're simply not doing what's desired (and possibly necessary) to make the forum financially stable. To try and make it into anything more than that is chest-pounding soapbox preaching. Take a step back and think about this a bit more before accusing anyone of such lack of morals. It would be an ideal world if we all contributed enough to let Keith purchase that 50 TeraHertz, 800 TeraByte server with 200kVA backup power unit... but as long as we offer people the choice, they reserve the right to exercise that choice without being shamed and/or accused of wrongdoing. My choice is to charge (with a handful of exceptions), but that's Keith's choice, not mine.

Matt Meiser

03-31-2009, 2:18 PM

Not the same since I don't own a device or software specifically intended to remove the ads from my TV through subterfuge . If I did then yes that to would be stealing. IMHO.

I do. Three actually -- VCR, DVD recorder, and DVR. In the case of the latter, I do pay for the right to use it. ;)

Angus Hines

03-31-2009, 3:31 PM

Ok your right Dan maybe I did use the wrong words.

What do you call it when a Member, (not a Contributor) use's a method other than contributing, and the features and privledges that come with that to stop ads from showing.

And just to clarify those are the ones Im speaking of. Contributors have paid for there right not to see ads and have a way provided with in the rules to turn them off or on.

As for the ads before you login I have no idea I always stay logged in with the remember me feature. I even had to log out, to find out, after Keith told me, that my banner ad was now in the rotation system.

And I'm with you with the exception of a few instances. This should be a pay to play site.

Kim Vellore

03-31-2009, 4:43 PM

Looking at a different angle I dont mind adds and I would even click on a few that interest me, but the ones that flash and tries to catch your attention by means that does not please you or just annoy you, well I think the user will take the extra effort to avoid that or just brand that advertiser as a bad one. Remember long time back before google if you went to yahoo home page there used to be many popup adds no one liked it, and when google came up with a simple page look what happened to yahoo... it is a matter of how smart the advertisers really are.
Kim

Doug Griffith

03-31-2009, 5:06 PM

I can't say I agree with this being a pay-to-play site because without a large visitor base, SMC won't have enough to offer to get people to pony up cash. Sure, SMC has large base now but it will fade away if it goes to strictly pay. Contributors will get bored without fresh blood with new information, stories, problems, etc...

I have not yet contributed in the traditional sense. I instead put about a full day's worth of work into programming the Gold Method script. Others on this site contribute a great deal. Frank Corker is a good example. His clip-art contributions alone provide other Creekers with motive to contribute cash to keep the site up and running. Without a steady influx of fresh blood, people like Frank will not join the forum. They won't even know about it because the doors will be closed. It will become elitist and inbred.

There are many ways for this site to make money. The visitor base is already here. I wish I had this problem.

Cheers,
Doug