Good 2x4's out of 2x10's

[Dustin Powers]

Keep in mind I don't have a jointer. I downloaded a plan or two that uses 2x4's to build some workshop storage projects. The last time I bought 2x4's at a big box store they were horrible. I can't imagine trying to build anything out of them. So could I buy 2x10's and use a jig with either a table saw or router to straighten one edge then use the table saw with the straight edge against the fence to cut some straight 2x4's? I would waste some material but maybe I could use it somewhere again well probably not. Is there anything I could purchase that would be better? Thanks!

[Chris Schumann]

I used a 2x6 for a mobile base once just because all the 2x4's were awful. 2x10 should/could make some OK 2x4's.

Keep in mind all the construction lumber has a lot more moisture than furniture wood, so it will move more until it dries.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I'm no expert with 2x4s, but if you buy a 2x10, then it can have tension and when you rip 2x4s they may warp worse than the ones you see at the big box stores.

The same goes with sheet goods. As a rule of thumb, I like to trim a small amount to 2" max off factory edges to prevent warping. Basically if you use one board that has a freshly cut edge, and the other edge was not freshly cut, then it can warp. If all 4 sides of a sheet have been freshly cut by yourself, then there will be less of a chance of warping. An example of when I wouldn't follow this rule is if the factory edge of a sheet is square, un-damaged and looks new, then I may use it.

So if I had to buy 2x4s, I would go to several box stores if I had to and look at their selections. Hand select each piece and look down it so you can see if it warps bows or twists. Choose the best ones and go from there leaving all sides in-tact.

[Russ Boyd]

Chris is right in that they might cut up even worse. Big box stores stuff is inferior, but you should be able to find a few under the crap everyone leaves laying every which way (that's mostly why they look like that). Best bet is to go to a lumber yard and get kiln dried doug fir (typical studs) or stack dried (says s-dry on it) for longer stuff. The yard probably has a better price too. They sell to everyone, not just contractors. Good luck, Russ

[Tom Veatch]

...The last time I bought 2x4's at a big box store they were horrible. ...

That sort of goes without saying. I've almost concluded that if a straight 2x4 crosses the dock at the borg closest to me, someone is in danger of being fired.

I'll second the caution you've already received about ripping pieces from wider construction grade lumber. Depending on the specific piece, they can wander around all over the place. I have seen even fairly straight pieces that without a splitter or wedge in the kerf, would pinch the blade so tight, it'd stall the saw. It can be done, but count on some waste.

First thing I'd suggest is drive right on by the box store if you have any local lumber yards. None of the construction grade lumber you're going to find would take the place of a Starrett straight edge, but I've been pretty successful getting acceptably straight construction grade stock from small, local, "fur-real" lumber yards. Give them a try, you may be pleasantly suprised, even with the 2x4 sizes. The one I deal with most often is quite good about letting me select/reject individual pieces.

[lowell holmes]

I have a yard close by that keeps a bin of d grade fir inside. Normally, their 2x4'sare fine. I don't have any problems ripping 2x6's to the size I need. You might look for something like fir. It normally is straighter than yellow pine.
I've seen whitwood 2x4's at Home Depot that looked good. I have bought fir 4x4's from Home Depot that were used in my workbench (legs).
I nomally don't buy from them.

[Mark Bolton]

So if I had to buy 2x4s, I would go to several box stores if I had to and look at their selections. Hand select each piece and look down it so you can see if it warps bows or twists. Choose the best ones and go from there leaving all sides in-tact.

Or how bout an even better option and not go to the box stores who sell the cheapest junk they can pass off?

In almost any location there will be other lumberyards to choose from. There will likely be at least one with a reputation of "boy, they have nice stuff but man their prices are high". Thats the place to head for. They likely set a higher standard for their dimensional lumber from their suppliers (and are willing to pay for it, as should you).

We deal with one such supplier who most distributors hate dealing with as when a load of lumber lands at the yard the receiver comes walking out with a moisture meter before he gets the fork lift. They stock white fir on anything under 2x8 and SYP on 2x8's and above. You can most always walk to the rack and if you need 40 boards, load the first 40 in the stack and they will all be good. You could build shop cabinets with much of their lumber right out of the rack. They may be 10-15 percent higher in price but if you want junk you pay for junk (which is the message you send to the box every time you shop there). If you want quality, you pay for quality. The catch 22 is the box's deny you the ability to make this choice because they cant profit from choices. You have to buy what they want you to buy.

Mark

[Chris Tsutsui]

Well if the guy has a lumber yard of higher standards near him that provides better 2X's for more money, then that is obviously another option.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Chris is right in that they might cut up even worse. Big box stores stuff is inferior, but you should be able to find a few under the crap everyone leaves laying every which way (that's mostly why they look like that). Best bet is to go to a lumber yard and get kiln dried doug fir (typical studs) or stack dried (says s-dry on it) for longer stuff. The yard probably has a better price too. They sell to everyone, not just contractors. Good luck, Russ

Hate to disagree completely but there's not a yard in town that can compete with HD or Lowe's for either straight lumber or price. It may be different in other states but here in Texas this is the case 99% of the time.

I spent weeks trying to beat their prices back in the 90's when I started my business and all I found was curly wood and high prices everywhere else. I constantly check the yards for price difference and they have NEVER been cheaper than HD.

[Dustin Powers]

I checked the yellow pages and there is a lumber yard sorta of nearby. There are probably more but the yellow pages was the only place I thought to look. I guess I could call them and see if they supply dimensional 2x4 in Fir but the boxed stores are a lot closer. I'll call them though and ask because that stuff at the box stores wow it is just not close to straight!

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Here's the secret to the box store lumber buy. You can never take the top row or three of boards. These are always the rejects from contractors. You have to dig down to the orderly stacked lumber....the stuff that is straight from the pallet stack.

Most yards won't let you pick lumber out yourself around here...another reason I never buy from them anymore.

[Russ Boyd]

Hate to disagree completely but there's not a yard in town that can compete with HD or Lowe's for either straight lumber or price. It may be different in other states but here in Texas this is the case 99% of the time.

I spent weeks trying to beat their prices back in the 90's when I started my business and all I found was curly wood and high prices everywhere else. I constantly check the yards for price difference and they have NEVER been cheaper than HD.
Wow! It must depend on the area like you said, cause that is totally opposite here in Wa. Mouldings are WAY overpriced at the box store. Just today I bought a couple of pcs to finish a job at 92 cents a foot as compared to the 36 cents I paid for identical stuff at my lumber yard (didn't have time for the trip). All other types of lumber are about the same deal, other than good quality vs junkwood. Ply is usually cheaper at the box but it is an inferior product. Go figure.

[Mark Bolton]

Here's the secret to the box store lumber buy. You can never take the top row or three of boards. These are always the rejects from contractors. You have to dig down to the orderly stacked lumber....the stuff that is straight from the pallet stack.

That only gets you a board that is straight at the time of purchase. Generally, any board will stay straight for some time after it is released from its bands. A sh((y lift of lumber is just that, a sh((y lift. Its not to say all the stick in a lift will go whacky if a few do.

Building houses we have gone through entire lifts. The inferior studs are all throughout the lift. A stick from anywhere in the lift can go whacky days, weeks, after being set free.

Mark

[Mark Bolton]

stack dried (says s-dry on it) for longer stuff.

I hate to nit pick here, but S-dry doesnt actually stand for stack dried it stands for "surfaced dry". It simply means that the board had a moisture content not to exceed 19% at the time it was surfaced.

The drying could have been any one, or combination of, KD, AD, HT, etc..

It merely speaks to when in the drying process the lumber was surfaced.

Mark

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I'm no expert with 2x4s, but if you buy a 2x10, then it can have tension and when you rip 2x4s they may warp worse than the ones you see at the big box stores.

What he said.

[Mark Bolton]

Hate to disagree completely but there's not a yard in town that can compete with HD or Lowe's for either straight lumber or price. It may be different in other states but here in Texas this is the case 99% of the time.

I spent weeks trying to beat their prices back in the 90's when I started my business and all I found was curly wood and high prices everywhere else. I constantly check the yards for price difference and they have NEVER been cheaper than HD.

Like you sated, a lot of it is regional however I wouldnt want to work in an area where the box's are the tops for quality, no offense.

Here local yards can almost always beat the boxes on price but quality for all in the commodity sector varies. Sometimes the average yards have primo material and some times the boxes have the better stuff. The boxes rarely have the better price unless they are selling at or below cost to merely get dollars through the store (which they often do).

Whats sad is some of the best material coming to the market in the US is from Germany, Western Russia, and so on. We get lifts from Germany that look like they came out of a cabinet shop when you cut them open. So smooth and clear of knots they look like they have a coat of urethane on them.

Most all of the Canadian lumber is mediocre at best for us at least.

Mark

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I will say that this is only for 2x4's and dimensional lumber. When it comes to mouldings and other goods like hardwoods and such the big boxes are for those who don't know where to buy. I saw a guy ordering 4x and 2x Cedar from the Borg in Terrell and I cringed. He coulda saved hundreds on his order by driving 28 miles into Dallas. And never ever buy Red Oak from HD or Lowe's...it'll kill ya.

I've never had trouble with banded lumber going awry, but then I know how to read the problematic boards up front.

[Mark Bolton]

I've never had trouble with banded lumber going awry, but then I know how to read the problematic boards up front.

I dont want to start a pi**ing contest here but the material on the top of the stack, the "contractor rejects" you spoke of, were banded at some point in their life. And as the pile is picked through for shark bites (wain) and other defects (by diy'ers mostly, which is why many yards dont allow picking), the weight on the remaing boards is reduced. The ones that are going to move, will begin to move, if they sit there long enough without being bought. If they are going to move, but were bought straight, they WILL move. Running a sawmill for some of our hardwoods it is completely clear that you can not stop a board from moving if its going to move. This is especially true with framing lumber that will likely lose some 10% additional MC once it takes up residence in your residence.

This is why quality builders have to go through a house that took a month to frame and shim/plane/replace trouble studs. You cant see a stick that is going to go wild 5 minutes after the bands are cut. Even with a small crew an entire lift can go up before lunch. Every one will be as straight as it was when the bands were cut. Its the following days and weeks that the devil rears its ugly head.

This is why buying on price is usually a lost venture. When you have to go back and shim/plane/replace 5% of th studs you have lost all of your savings and then some. You will lose even more if you have to read each stud before putting them up. Most builders either watch this stuff and lean towards quality or say "f" it and burry it.

This same thing happens when we unload our kiln. I often put the lumber sawn from the gnarly trees on the bottom of the stack in the kiln to try to restrain some of th movement. It will remove some of it, but not all. The restraint is not what makes a board straight, its the tree the board came out of, how it was sawn (relieving tension), and minimally in the drying.

Mark

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Like you sated, a lot of it is regional however I wouldnt want to work in an area where the box's are the tops for quality, no offense.

Mark

No offense taken. I tried like heck to beat the borgs for quality in decking material. Even for regular framing lumber they are superior around here.

Buying lumber for decks that is straight is a rarity in our area. Most of the yards carry kiln dried lumber and NONE of it is straight. At HD's the Micro Pro Wood is about the closest thing to prefection I have ever seen. Not only does it ship straight it stays that way after it's on the shelf for awhile. I toss back very few boards in my hunts for the straight stuff. It also moves very little after drying out...unlike the green stuff that Lowe's has.

PS...like I said I have never had a problem like you describe. I have framed a few additions and have never had to shim or replace a stud. I disagree about not being able to see the studs that can move after the fact. Those that do have a very slight bend in certain areas. A quick look at that particular area will reveal the reason for the bend...usually a knot or a dense grain pattern change.

[Mark Bolton]

I toss back very few boards in my hunts for the straight stuff. It also moves very little after drying out...unlike the green stuff that Lowe's has.


Yeah, for sure the treated material is a totally different animal. Being SYP it is prone to a lot of movement anyway but then when you factor in swelling the capillaries to the extent they do in the treating process, then drying it back out again, it is actually amazing a single board stays straight.

We put down our first batch of treated decking in perhaps 10 years last year. We almost exclusively run composite (rhino, lp, trex, etc) and it was awful. The homeowner insisted on 5/4 treated yet wanted banded perimeter and stairs (picture frame). Even though I repeatedly told them no matter how tight you get your joints on installation they will open shortly. It was to no avail. Needless to say in going back to the job just weeks later it was not worth the work.

Mark

[Prashun Patel]

You guys are kidding me right?
Ripping 2x4's out of 2x10's? Way too much effort.

If yr building workshop storage, you'll need what - 10-20 max? You can pick through and find good stock at the HD.

You can also substitute 1x4's if yr building lighter duty storage projects.

Not all HD's and lumberyards are created equally. The HD near me has very good kd dfir that I've framed with. Conversely, the 'lumber yard' near me stores their studs outside - covered - but still outside. And they make you feel like an idiot for questioning it...

[Mark Bolton]

You can pick through and find good stock at the HD.

As has been said many times in the thread much of this is very regional but... to be completely honest, I have had trouble at times from any location I am buying lumber finding 20 primo studs for something I really want to be primo. Given I could upgrade to a different material but often times not.

Sometimes its just whats on the rack.

As I mentioned in another reply, I have personally received entire lifts on a job that were just mediocre. I have also received entire lifts that got the salesmen an a$$ reaming. Unfortunately in many locale's reducing quality is a common trade against the bottom line.

Mark

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I only have three composite decks out there...due to fading and one class action lawsuit, I think we're done with 'em. Ipe is a much better product for our area and in most cases it costs less, but I digress....sorry for the off topic.

I've only allowed ONE delivery of materials in the last 15 years and I got bit big time. Had to return 86 boards out of 210. Ever since I have picked out my own lumber.

[John Callahan]

We get lifts from Germany that look like they came out of a cabinet shop when you cut them open. So smooth and clear of knots they look like they have a coat of urethane on them.

Ditto. For my own work I used to deal with a small yard in the cities- they closed last year. They called it "Eurowood" .......... I've never seen 2x's as good before or since. Still have a couple sticks in the garage- still straight and true. I've not been a big fan of the box stores ......... still remember going through three lifts of 4x4 cedar; not a one that wasn't checked, split or crooked. :mad:

[lowell holmes]

I have found that often times buying cheaper, lesser quality lumber does not necessarily save money. By the time you trim and discard the waste you cant use, the cost is near to or exceeds the cost of the better material.
My experience with dimension lumber is that fir is normally straighter than pine and will stay straight.
I prefer to work pine since the fir will split with sharp splinters if you plane it the wrong way.
I have seen some pretty good looking dimension lumber at HD and Lowes, but it normally costs more. :)

[Rick Thom]

I find that buying construction lumber pretty much a crap shoot. Price isn't always a good guide.. sometimes the local lumber yard, who is known for quality, has excellent quality at 1/2 the price of big box crap, other times not. I have never seen local big box have excellent quality lumber of any sort, acceptable is their highest standard, and then it's all about price. If I'm not needing too many studs and it's important that they be straight and true, I've had good luck with the finger-jointed studs, but they are priced higher.

[Lee Schierer]

Ripping your own 2 x 4's from larger sized boards will most likely not save you any money. Construction lumber is not dried to the same MC standard as cabinet grade materials. When you are building a house a little bow or twist doesn't make a lot of difference, even though carpenters would prefer better material if they can get it. The big home centers are dealing volume and buy the cheapest materials they can get. With MC of 12%-19%or higher this lumber is just waiting to be relased from the shipping bands so it can relieve the stresses. Many of the box stores store their stock outside before it gets moved to the sales floor. If you look for the private lumber yards in your area, most likely you will get superior quality, but the price will also be higher.

What I do when I need 2 x4's for something other than building construction is to select the best ones I can get, bring them home where I stack and sticker them ASAP and either clamp them together or weight them to prevent movement. I leave them in my shop for a couple of weeks. Once they air dry they tend to be pretty stable. I stay away from the "economy" and "stud" bins and use the 8' lengths or longer since they tend to be better grade wood.

[Bob Luciano]

Do you have any salvage yards near you? Easiest place to find dry straight wood I have found for wood. Mind you I wouldn't go there for building anything large. I have old buildings with lumber that is a cut in full inch measurements. Only place to get that around here is salvage yards. Straight dry and tighter grain.

[John Thompson]

Dustin.. I'm won't get involved in the debate on where but here's what I do. I build work-bench tops 3" thick with SYP that I purchase at the BORG here in Atlanta. I hand pick 2 x 10's from the stack and sometimes it might take a couple of weeks to get what I want. Sometimes it can be done in one day.

I am looking for fairly dry.. straight on the shelf (if it ain't straight then if won't straighten once I get it back to my wood rack) and I am looking for a board that has the pith as close to center as possible. It doesn't have to be dead center but.. the closer the better. Now... once I have found them they go to the shop to acclimate. At that point I rip 1/4" off both outside edges.

Then I place that edge on the TS fence and rip 3 1/8" off one side... then flip the board and rip the same off the other. I throw the pith away or stack it for purely some form of crude construction. It leaves me with two studs with the growth rings oriented //// or QS. The pith is the unstable portion of a flat sawn board. Now I have two 2 x 3 1/8" pieces. And even though they were straight off the shelf.. you will always get one or two that will release stress so I purchase a few extra.

I take my 3 1/8" studs to the jointer and take 1/16' off each side. If you don't have a jointer just rip to width on you TS. I find select SYP (as we get down south) to be stable for the most part and once it completely dries it is very hard.

Just my experience using construction grade SYP.. I don't buy the 2 x 4 studs except for utility pieces. If I see one when at the BORG that appears dry and straight... I might purchase it for future use. I end up with about one of two a month but basically stay away as those studs are not SYP.

Good luck with your project. BTW.. every mobile tool cabinet I have has a frame of SYP with MDF attached. No problems.

Sarge..

[Dan Forman]

Most of the folks who build workbenches from dimensional lumber recommend starting with 2 x 10 or 2 x 12's and cutting them down to size, because they tend to contain fewer knots. They say the 2 x 4's tend to be the worst quality wood.

Dan

[Dustin Powers]

Thanks for all the replies! John I'm going to give your theory or practice a shot it makes sense.

[Mark Bolton]

he big home centers are dealing volume and buy the cheapest materials they can get.

Just to b clear, they absolutely DO NOT buy "the cheapest material they can get" due to "volume". They buy the cheapest material they can get because it is specifically how they can extract the most profit for the least product delivered, period. Talk to any of their management, sales, or corporate staff (who will speak with you honestly) and they will confirm this over and over and over.

This is the capitalist greed, Wal-Mart, model of business that has put us squarely in the sh(t hole. We are in our current situation for no other reason than this business model extended throughout our economy.

Mark

[Mark Bolton]

[QUOTE=Rick Thom;1091796]I have never seen local big box have excellent quality lumber of any sort, acceptable is their highest standard, and then it's all about price./QUOTE]

This has been our experience in every market we have done business in... There is most always a better quality source within 30 miles.

Mark

[Mark Bolton]

I only have three composite decks out there...due to fading and one class action lawsuit, I think we're done with 'em. Ipe is a much better product for our area and in most cases it costs less, but I digress....sorry for the off topic.

I've only allowed ONE delivery of materials in the last 15 years and I got bit big time. Had to return 86 boards out of 210. Ever since I have picked out my own lumber.

We have not had a single significant problem with composites in over 15 years. I couldnt count the composite decks we have. Anything from 50sq' on up to 2000 square foot and bigger.

My only complaint about composites is the movement. I really would love to be able to work with 40' material on a lot of decks but dealing with all that expansion in 2 joints is a real chore.

I personally would be hard pressed to trade any natural material for composite other than pure esthetics. The mere fact that the better composites are 100% recycled makes them a no brainer for many of our customers. Not to mention the fact that many of our decks have some of the most jacked up curves, curved herring bones, and so on that would not be possible with natural wood (or realistically).

Mark

Mark

[Dustin Powers]

Just to b clear, they absolutely DO NOT buy "the cheapest material they can get" due to "volume". They buy the cheapest material they can get because it is specifically how they can extract the most profit for the least product delivered, period. Talk to any of their management, sales, or corporate staff (who will speak with you honestly) and they will confirm this over and over and over.

This is the capitalist greed, Wal-Mart, model of business that has put us squarely in the sh(t hole. We are in our current situation for no other reason than this business model extended throughout our economy.

Mark

AMEN...from someone that owns a retail business.