Titebond vs Elmers

[tody Brock]

I have always used Elmers wood glue and have never had a problem, but everything I have been reading lately says Titebond is the way to go. Does anyone know what the difference is between the two. Is it worth the extra $4-5 for the Titebond.

[timothy harwell]

This is just my opinion. I used to use elmer's also until I tried titebond. To be honest, when I used elmer's I never had faith in the glue bond on its own without any mechanical fasteners. When I tried titebond the first time, I couldn't believe how strong the bond was. I must admit that, back when I used elmer's, my knowledge of woodworking and techniques such as gluing up wasnt nearly what it is now so part of it could have been my inexperience. However, I strongly believe there is a difference and titebond is worth the extra $4 or so.

[Bill Blackburn]

I certainly been known to use both in certain instances.

I think TB is the better of the 2 but the application would dictate whether that is always needed in my view. For a few bucks I always go with the TB - but someplaces can charge such a premium for it I pass too.

I have never experienced a failure from either that was not my fault anyway. Once I squeezed the clamps to death and likely forced out 80% of the TB and things literally fell apart in time. Thought it may happen too.

Drawback to Elmers - I think it has to be 90% dry/cured to be close to strength and TB less so. So if it's a glue and use in 30 minutes or so I'm always using TB

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Glue is usually the cheapest part of any project that I can think of, why cheap out? I bought a bottle off Elmers in a pinch a while back, and the very next chance I had I bought two of Titebond 3 to replace it. I don't like Elmers consistancy, or initial tack. I suppose it is usable if needed, but why?

[Eric Roberge]

One more vote for Titebond.

Elmers is for school:p

[Prashun Patel]

TBII or III for me. Great brand; long history of use; lots of positive testimonial; cheapest part of project; no need to switch...

[Dave Falkenstein]

My experience is the shelf life for Titebond is noticably longer than Elmer's. I switched to Titebond years ago after tossing more than one container of "aged" Elmer's. I have used Elmer's Probond for outdoor applications, and it works very well. Given the choice, I'll buy one of the Titebond products today. I have no idea what they cost.

[Paul Steiner]

I like titebond. It is thinner and less viscous than elmers. This makes it easier to spread and apply, that means more coverage and stronger joints.

[Lee Schierer]

Don't get Titebond II or III on your clothes, it does not wash out. I've never had a problem with using Elmers glue with a joint failure. Joint failure due to glue squeeze out is mostly myth. Thin glue layers work best and failure was most like due to too little glue being applied in the first place to cover the glued area or a poor fitting joint.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I have elmer's probond and it seemed the exact same as original titebond.

However, if I had a choice between elmers white school glue and titebond original, I would pay the $5 extra for titebond.

Elmer's white glue is intended more for construction paper and dried macaroni. :)

[James Adinaro]

Nowadays, I use TB3 for everything. Lower working temp (I keep my shop pretty cool), indoors, outdoors - it's all good.

And yeah - don't get it on your clothes. Or shoes.

[Gary Benson]

According to a lecture given by Marc Adams, all PVA glues are the same minus a few "special ingredients". The type II and type III glues are an attempt to make them more water proof, but the only difference between typical white and yellow glue is one ingredient added to make the yellow glue stick better to wet construction grade lumber. Again, according to him, good old Elmer's white glue (not water soluble school glue) is just as good as any yellow "wood glue". The big advantages for me is that the white glue has a longer open time, cleans us easier, and dries clear.

[Jim Kountz]

According to a lecture given by Marc Adams, all PVA glues are the same minus a few "special ingredients". The type II and type III glues are an attempt to make them more water proof, but the only difference between typical white and yellow glue is one ingredient added to make the yellow glue stick better to wet construction grade lumber. Again, according to him, good old Elmer's white glue (not water soluble school glue) is just as good as any yellow "wood glue". The big advantages for me is that the white glue has a longer open time, cleans us easier, and dries clear.


Yep, I agree. I visited a shop of some very well known cabinet makers a couple of years ago and was surprised to learn they only use white glue on everything they build. These guys do very high end work and their work is found in some of the most prominent collections in the country including the white house, colonial williamsburg and the capitol building not to mention countless private collections. Their period reproductions are the best Ive seen so I figure if its good enough for them its good enough for me. That being said Im sure someone will tell me these folks are wrong and that they know better and to that I will just say hogwash!!

[Darius Ferlas]

I'm a relative noob so I never even considered, what I thought would be, the minute differences among wood glues would warrant an in depth research so I just used whatever came in handy and was $1 cheaper than the other brand.

I just finished a bottle of Elmer's glue I bough at least 15 years ago. The bottle had been open and I used about 1/3 of the content for a pretty clumsy project I did then - a fairly large chest that stood in my garage until I knocked it down a few months ago. I used a hammer to break it down and it turned out most of the glue joints still held so well, I broke the joints next to the glue lines.

A major project I used the old glue for were some rail and stile doors last Summer. They seem to be holding very well. The only problem was that the glue was setting very fast.

Only recently I bought TB III which seems to be suggested by most to be the one suitable for walnut due to the darker color of the glue, but I also bought another bottle of Elmer's. Just in case :)

[Paul Ryan]

I have used elmers yellow, elmers pro bond, titebond I, III, and gorilla WOOD glue. My favorites are the gorilla wood glue and the elmers pro bond, because they set up very quickly. Of those too I like the gorilla the best because it dries clear and is water resistant. I use tite bond III ocassionally if I need something with longer open times and the darker drying color. The thickness of the elmers and gorilla is a real nice feature because they do not run as easy. Strenght wise I think all of them are equal, except you can work on the wood sooner when using the pro bond and gorilla.

[Chris Padilla]

We should be more clear about the different PVAs one is comparing. Simply saying, "Buy Elmers over TB" isn't quite enough. We know Titebond has I, II, and III as their main class of PVAs (but they also have Molding & Trim, poly, liquid hide, etc.) I don't even know what Elmers has except good old white that we all used in school and their ProBond.

Your glue choice is quite varied nowadays even just among PVAs. You can pick different open times (short or long) and different colors (blonde or dark brown). I have TB I, II, II-Ex, and III. I grab them for all different reasons depending upon what I am doing. I think the variety of TB gives it an edge over Elmers and so I rarely look beyond TB as the choice of PVA for my use.

[Jerry Olexa]

I use TB 2 or 3 on most of my projects...

[Cliff Polubinsky]

During one of his classes at WWIA last fall Frank Klaus stated he only uses Elmers glue. He said it was just as strong and he liked the longer open time.

Cliff

[george wilson]

I had problems years ago with white glue creeping under pressure,as in guitar necks,even with dovetail joints,creeping out of guitar bodies over several months. I only use hide now for important joints.

Has anyone else noticed white glue creeping?

[Dave Lehnert]

I believe there is not much difference in the basic Elmer's and basic Titebond. I think just the fact Titebond cost more it must be better ;)

I have used Elmer's 99% of the time with no problems to report. I use it because that is what we sell at work.

[Joel Earl]

Me thinks they prolly pretty equal too for most applications ... other than marketing. TB wins there hands down:D
Imagine they spend more on marketing than any other brand 3 to 1.

Was in WC few weeks ago and the guy was doing a demo with a Jet lathe. I was talking to him later and he had 2 pieces that split. What did he use to glue the things up? Elmers - sitting on the table next to the things. And WC does carry it AFAIK so it was prolly personal stash. Found the glue choice interesting myself - then this thread here comes along also .....

[guy knight]

FWW did a comparison of glues a few issues back and found elmers was the same as TBI but TBII was better abd TBIII was the best wood glue it was even better on oily woods over epoxy's and they found one of the weakest glues was gorila glue i use TBII-III mostly and epoxy when i need the longer open time

[joe milana]

George, I believe the condenses among luthiers is that PVA glues "Creep". Titebond III being the "worse". I don't see much difference between Elmers yellow wood glue and original Titebond , and I use both. For water "resistance" or "waterproof", it's weldwood plastic resin glue or resourcinal glue for me. Both are great to work with. Long potlife, easy cleanup (damp rag). Epoxies are MESSY, but great for marine work, etc.

[Perry Underwood]

For lutherie purposes, Titebond Original is the preferred choice of many over Titebond II and III. However, I recently wanted to purchase Titebond Original and found it was not imported to where I live. I did learn that both Titebond II and III were imported and tried to make a decision which one would be best to use. I wrote to Franklin International with this question, and this is the reply I received:

I am writing in response to your inquiry regarding the preference of Titebond II or Titebond III as a substitute for Titebond Original Wood Glue in the construction of musical instruments. You reported that you build electric guitars and have long used Titebond Original, but can no longer find it in the country in which you are located.

Comparing the two products, the prime differences for most users are that Titebond III provides longer assembly times and can make successful bonds at lower temperatures than Titebond II. For others, the fact that Titebond III dries brown in color rather than the yellow color of Titebond II may be of some importance. For your application, however, the most important difference is that dried Titebond II is quite similar to Titebond Original in hardness, and is somewhat more rigid and less likely to creep than Titebond III. Based on that factor, Titebond II would be the preferred product for your situation.

Finally, it is important to note that both Titebond II and Titebond III are designed for wet use applications, so moisture will have little effect on either glue if it is used in an attempt to disassemble a joint for repair or component replacement. With that in mind, you should know that the most effective tool for reversing a joint made with either of these two products is heat, with Titebond II acting much like Titebond Original in losing about half its strength by 150°F, while Titebond III will show slightly more softening at any given temperature.

[george wilson]

Thanks for the info,Perry. I wanted to know,but now use hide glue,being older and wiser,both for non creeping,sound transmission,and repairs down the road.

In a recent FWW write up,liquid hide glue was found stronger than hot hide glue. I put the whole bottle of liquid hide glue into a pot of hot water till it gets warmed up. This makes it thinner by a lot, and it penetrates wood better.

Gorilla glue is no stronger than styrofoam. The foam it makes is like styrofoam when you cut it off.

[Charlie Plesums]

I use TB 2 or 3 on most of my projects...
Hmmm I avoid TB 2 and 3 at all costs. There is no forgiveness... the fingerprint of TB 2 or 3 glue cannot be removed


I believe there is not much difference in the basic Elmer's and basic Titebond. I think just the fact Titebond cost more it must be better ;)

I have used Elmer's 99% of the time with no problems to report. I use it because that is what we sell at work.
I use either Elmer's carpenter (yellow) or Titebond Original. I buy it a gallon at a time (a couple gallons per year) and the only difference I have found is the couple dollar contribution to the Franklin advertising fund.


FWW did a comparison of glues a few issues back and found elmers was the same as TBI but TBII was better abd TBIII was the best wood glue it was even better on oily woods over epoxy's and they found one of the weakest glues was gorila glue i use TBII-III mostly and epoxy when i need the longer open time

I will not have Gorilla glue in my shop any more. The only glue joint I have had fail was with Gorilla glue. If the mechanical connection isn't perfect, the foamed gorilla glue has practically no strength.


Both Borden's Carpenter and TB original are stronger than the surrounding wood. Both can be cleaned up with water and LOTS of elbow grease. Neither TB2 or TB3 is sufficient for full waterproof requirements. Both can be given extended open time with a light mist of water. The lower temperature rating of TB 3 is only 4 degees... whoopie. Do I have a bias... yes. Smart people may disagree, but I doubt if they will change my opinion.

[Chris Padilla]

Hmmm I avoid TB 2 and 3 at all costs. There is no forgiveness... the fingerprint of TB 2 or 3 glue cannot be removed.

Are you referring to squeeze-out, Charlie?

[Paul Ryan]

You guys are again confusing Gorilla poly glue which is the stuff that foams. To gorilla wood glue. I will not use gorilla poly glue for any wood work. However I do use the gorilla wood glue, there is a difference. A big difference.

[george wilson]

Jim:Re: Colonial Williamsburg's use of white glue.Are you aware of the exact uses that Williamsburg has for white glue? I am not aware of it being used for furniture making. I think it might be used in some of the conservation work,perhaps in upholstery,I'm not real sure,but I think so. What they do in upholstering 18th.C. original furniture,is to form copper around the contours of chairs where the bottom of cushions would be,for example,in dining chairs. Then,they take a special type of rubbery foam,and sculpt it into a fake cushion.This must be glued together to make it thick enough to form a crown in the seat. I THINK they glue up the foam with white glue. Over this,the actual fabric that you see is applied. Brass upholstery nails around the edges are actually anchored in the copper that was formed around the edges of cushions. That way,no new holes are pounded into antiques already weakened by countless old holes. The elaborate foam insides give a stable,acid free filler that does not subject the old wood to further harm over time. The pieces are not permitted to be sat upon.The cushions look normal,but are quite hard.

There may be other uses for the white glue in other conservation areas,like ceramics,etc.,which I am not familiar with.

I used to help devise tools for sculpting the rather difficult foam,and made long upholstery needles for them to use.

Can you elaborate on other uses for white glue in Williamsburg?

[Jim Kountz]

According the what I was told, yes it was conservation work, not building reproductions.

[Perry Underwood]

My post is getting into an area which may not interest many. George, I think you might be interested. The following link discusses the effects different glues have on the transmission of vibration--a consideration when building musical instruments.

http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-vib.html

The website has other articles which may be of interest to some.

http://www.mcknightguitars.com/special.html

[John Stan]

I have taken a class from a well known local cabinet shop in Virginia, that does high end restorations, builds period furniture (some of which is in my house), writes articles for FWW, etc. They have been in business for several decades. They only use plain Elmers White glue. They say it is easier to clean up and longer open time. According to them, they have never had a joint fail. I have since used it on some projests and also found it to be easier to work with.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I still have some products I made back when the only glue around was white glue.

[Paul Murphy]

I had problems years ago with white glue creeping under pressure,as in guitar necks,even with dovetail joints,creeping out of guitar bodies over several months. I only use hide now for important joints.

Has anyone else noticed white glue creeping?

Yes I've noticed that also. I tried Titebond brand polyurethane and so far no glue creep with it, and longer open time which helps with complex glue-ups.

Seems like there is a tradeoff with everything, and I still use plenty of regular Titebond when that creep isn't noticable. Regular titebond frees up my clamps so much faster, which is nice when you have lots of assemblys to glue.

[Charlie Plesums]

Are you referring to squeeze-out, Charlie?
I know tricks to handle squeeze out from TB 2, 3 without problem, but I mess things up regularly. I manage to get glue on my finger and put that fingerprint someplace on practically every project, and don't find it until I start finishing. I also often find some corner where I missed cleaning up the squeeze out. Therefore I need a glue that is forgiving. Borden's Carpenter and TB Original are forgiving, TB2, TB3 aren't.


You guys are again confusing Gorilla poly glue which is the stuff that foams. To gorilla wood glue. I will not use gorilla poly glue for any wood work. However I do use the gorilla wood glue, there is a difference. A big difference.

You are right. I hate the Gorilla poly glue. I have not tried the Gorilla wood glue.


I have taken a class from a well known local cabinet shop in Virginia, that does high end restorations, builds period furniture (some of which is in my house), writes articles for FWW, etc. They have been in business for several decades. They only use plain Elmers White glue. They say it is easier to clean up and longer open time. According to them, they have never had a joint fail. I have since used it on some projests and also found it to be easier to work with.

Our woodworking club just had a presentation by Homestead Heritage, describing the two pieces they just built for the White House. They also prefer white glue, since it is strong enough and even easier to clean up than yellow glue.

If you are doing veneer work, and want to put on edge banding (hard in a vacuum bag), put on a couple layers of white glue, then when it is dry, it can be ironed on like the commercial edge banding. With yellow glue, you get one try, with white glue you get multiple tries if it isn't perfect the first time.

[Chris Padilla]

Hmmm, looks like I may have to add good old white glue to my arsenal and try it out! Good thread, Folks! :)

[Steve Sawyer]

However, if I had a choice between elmers white school glue and titebond original, I would pay the $5 extra for titebond.

Elmer's white glue is intended more for construction paper and dried macaroni. :)

One would think so, but I know of at least one cabinet shop that has been using Elmer's white glue successfully for decades.

It's major drawback is not being waterproof, and being thinner than Titebond, it doesn't fill gaps (as you might prefer say in a hand-cut mortise-and tenon joint). However it has one thing strongly in its favor - it has about twice the open time, so if I have an assembly that will take longer than usual to get everything together, I will go to Elmer's white glue without hesitation.

As a result, I have glue-bots of both in the shop.

[David DeCristoforo]

For many years, Elmer's (white glue) was the glue. then Elmer's yellow "woodworker's glue" appeared and then Titebond. I still use the white glue for veneering. I never noticed much difference between Elmer's yellow glue and "original" Titebond although, since it appeared, I have used Titebond.

[Chris Tsutsui]

Thanks for the insight on white elmers.

Most of my wood projects I don't care about water proofing. So I might consider white elmers or perhaps even MIXING white elmers with TBI as an experiment. :D

My problem with white elmers (I've used it on wood before), is I find that it soaks into end grain and just seems thinner and weaker than yellow wood glue. It does take a long time to set which might be good for complex glue-ups and clamping, but when I'm putting together something systematically with a brad nailer, I want something that will set a bit quicker.

[Chris Padilla]

Chris,

Glue is a tool and just like tools, there are many glues out there that do different things. As long as you're aware of the properties of your tool (glue), you should be all set. If you need a different tool (glue) to get the job done, by all means, go for it. :)

That is why you'll find Titebond I, II, and III in my cabinet but I also have Lee Valley's cabinet glue, Gorilla Glue poly, cyanoacrelate, epoxys of various cure times, plastic resin, urea, and now I have "veneer glue" as well. I'll soon be adding white glue to the arsenal although I may have to fight my daughter for it! :D

[Jeff Mohr]

Elmers is for school:p


elmers white school glue and titebond original, I would pay the $5 extra for titebond.




Again, according to him, good old Elmer's white glue (not water soluble school glue) is just as good as any yellow "wood glue".

So which is it...school glue, white glue or are they the same?

Reason I ask is I used to be a middle school teacher and have a lot of the stuff sitting around..... ;)

[Jeff Mohr]

And to drag the conversation on a little more...

For the titebond fans, if titebond III is the best, besides price and maybe the darker drying color, why would you NOT want to use TIII all the time?

[Chris Tsutsui]

First, there's Elmer's White Washable School Glue. This is a PVAC based adhesive with 0 toxicity. Sold in kids section and arts and craft sections. I would not use this on my wood projects at all... heh

Then there's Elmer's white Glue-All which is only like $2 sold everywhere. This stuff has a toxic level of like 1. I would use this stuff on wood if I ran out of other glues, I would prefer a yellow glue obviously. (Such as Titebond I, or Elmer's Wood Glue.

I doubt that school glue and glue-all are the same because the MSDS sheets are different, and I don't think people on here use the washable school glue for their wood projects.

I am just baffled that I need to have so many glues... I really just want to have Titebond Original, and Gorilla Poly in my cabinet... But the more time I spend on this forum, the more glues and adhesives I will probably have.

BTW, Elmer's washable School Glue is classified as an adhesive on their web page.

So my conclusion is to use Elmer's Glue-All, or pay the extra two dollars for titebond original. I know the price increase because I went to my box store during lunch time. :)

[Charlie Plesums]

And to drag the conversation on a little more...

For the titebond fans, if titebond III is the best, besides price and maybe the darker drying color, why would you NOT want to use TIII all the time?

See posts 26 and 35 of this thread - forgiveness (TBIII isn't) and sufficiency (TBI and Elmer's Carpenter are)

[Chris Padilla]

And to drag the conversation on a little more...

For the titebond fans, if titebond III is the best, besides price and maybe the darker drying color, why would you NOT want to use TIII all the time?

As I noted already, the different properties exisiting within the family of TBs leads me to have many varieties of glue available in my cabinet.

Sometimes one wants a strong initial tack and short open times (maybe you need to glue and clamp and then use those clamps elsewhere in 30 minutes...maybe you are gluing up some casings for doors or moldings of some kind and you want a fast setting glue) and other times, you need an hour of open time (complicated glue up). Other times you may simply want a darker colored glue.

Did you know that TB has a glue that will fluoresce under a black light?! This allows you to see glue you might have missed when you think you're ready to finish.

[Cody Colston]

I use :

TB Original when I want the fast tack.
TB III when I need more open time or the waterproof characteristic. (my most used glue)
Plastic Resin Glue for bent laminations.
Gorilla Poly when I need the gap-filling ability but not necessarily strength (I used it making blast gates for my DC).
Epoxy (West System) for filling voids and defects in certain woods (like Mesquite) and when I need gap-filling ability AND strength.
CA glue when I need an instant bond, for filling small cracks on turnings and as a finish on small pieces.
Contact cement for laminates.
I'm also getting interested in doing veneering so I'll probably soon add Hide Glue to my arsenal.

Like Chris said, glue is simply another tool to accomplish a particular task. We are fortunate to have such a varied and effective array from which to choose.